Knights Radiant Orders and Surge Combination Theories

[Trickonometry]

I'll start by saying this post is all theories based off of information released from the excerpts released by TOR and the little bit of the Ars Arcanum shown in the Amazon.com Samples. PLEASE delete this if this is violating any sort of spoiler rules, but I promise this is all pure conjecture.

 

Edit: After looking at the Coppermind, a lot of this seems to have been confirmed elsewhere, but this post still will now attach the specific surges to each order.

 

My apologies to those who don't love Geometry, I'll be presenting my thoughts in a postulate-theorem format.

 

I'll start with what I believe to be some postulates:

 

P1) There are 10 different types of surges which are specifically listed in the Ars Arcanum in the following order:

 

Adhesion: The surge of pressure and vacuum.

Gravitation: The surge of gravity (duh).

Division: The surge of destruction and decay.

Abrasion: The surge of friction.

Progression: The surge of growth and healing, or regrowth.

Illumination: The surge of light, sound, and various wave forms.

Transformation: The surge of soulcasting.

Transportation: The surge of motion and realmatic transition.

Cohesion: The surge of strong axial interconnection.

Tension: The surge of soft axial interconnection.

 

 

P2) There are 10 orders of the Knights Radiant.

 

P3) Each order of Knights Radiant have two different surges available to them.

 

P4) There is overlap of each of the surges (by necessity of P2 and P3)

 

P5) These are the known (potential?) Radiants, their surges, and the name of their Knights Radiant order, if known:

Kaladin, Szeth - Adhesion and Gravitation (Windrunners)

Shallan - Illumination and Transformation (Lightweavers)

Jasnah - Transformation and Transportation (???)

Lift - Abrasion and Progression (Edgedancer)

Ym - Progression and Illumination

???? - I may be forgetting someone that we know about, I just listed what came to my head immediately

---------

So, here are my theorems:

 

T1) P1 is not listed in any way alphabetical, so we can assume that there is a purposeful reason to list them in this order.

 

Given T1, when we compare the orders and powers in P5 to the list on P1, we find that each of set of powers are found adjacent to each other on the list. Of most significant note, Shallan and Jasnah perfectly demonstrate this, with Transformation sitting between Illumination and Transportation. I find this to be strong evidence to imply that:

 

T2) These are the following power sets for each of the Knights Radiants orders:

 

1. Windrunners: Adhesion and Gravitation

2. Skybreakers: Gravitation and Division

3. Dustbringers: Divison and Abrasion

4. Edgedancers: Abrasion and Progression 

5. ???: Progression and Illumination 

6. Lightweavers: Illumination and Transformation

7. Elsecallers: Transformation and Transportation

8. ???: Transportation and Cohesion

9. Stonewards: Cohesion and Tension

10. Bondsmith(?): Tension and Adhesion (this is based on the assumption that the list is circular in nature)

 

 

 

 

The questions I have after all this:

1) The obvious: What the heck are Division, Cohesion, and Tension surges? These are, of course, the surges we have not seen(/been aware of having seen) so far.

2) What are the names for the corresponding spren? We have Cryptics paired with Lightweavers, Honorspren with Windrunners, and whatever Wyndle is (my bet is something to do with gardening/______gardeners) with Edgedancers.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Trickonometry

[Trickonometry]

Okay, after doing what I should have done in the first place and investigated the Coppermind, most of this seems to be confirmed. However, the new tidbits we have is:

 

1) The order that I present is confirmed by the Coppermind wiki info.

2) Stonewards are officially Cohesion and Tension, if the pattern continues (which it should).

 

 

My guess is that Bondsmiths are the 10th order, though of course there are cases to be made for them being the 5th or the 8th. It just seems that, of the combinations offered, I think that Tension and Adhesion seem to logically lead to "Bonding" and "Smithing." But, that's just a guess, we shall see.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Trickonometry

[Boundless]

Just a guess, but I think that Bondsmiths are the 8th Order because it's Primary Attribute is Resolute, and has the Surge of Cohesion. Also the prologue to WoK, where the Heralds break the Oathpact, would make sense from a Bondsmith's point of view.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Boundless

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I don't know if it's too early to update with known Info since the book it out, but you can add a couple of people to your list in p5), along with an order name (and likely location in the list)...

I'll not post them here but they will very sons become common knowledge hereabouts!

[Aminar]

Just a guess, but I think that Bondsmiths are the 8th Order because it's Primary Attribute is Resolute, and has the Surge of Cohesion. Also the prologue to WoK, where the Heralds break the Oathpact, would make sense from a Bondsmith's point of view.

It makes a whole lot  more sense that they are the Tenth.  Their first oath is about Uniting them, which fits very well with the ideals of the tenth order.  In addition The Pressure surge is often called Binding, and it makes sense The Stormfather and Syl would be close to each other in usage.  Resolute is almost surely Willshapers.  

 

From there it makes sense that Ranarin as a Truthwatcher would have illumination and Progression(growth)

Edited March 5, 2014 by Aminar

[Kaurne]

I was about to suggest this, but you got there first.

I think the Tension, Cohesion and Division surges are the key bits. Didn't the prelude to the series have the Dustbringers doing something that causes scorch marks? We know they have abrasion and division, which is a combination of friction based and destruction based powers. The combination surge of those two sounds like it could be used to create fires or burn things.

 

Also, is it just me, or do the descriptions for Tension and Cohesion sound like the strong and weak intermolecular forces by a different name? If so, how would THOSE powers work?

[Swimmingly]

Maybe on a macroscopic level?

[Moogle]

Just a guess, but I think that Bondsmiths are the 8th Order because it's Primary Attribute is Resolute, and has the Surge of Cohesion. Also the prologue to WoK, where the Heralds break the Oathpact, would make sense from a Bondsmith's point of view.

 

The Attributes have nothing to do with the Order's name. They have everything to do with their powers. Windrunners fly, Skybreakers fly, Lightweavers make illusions... Bondsmiths use Adhesion to make bonds between things.

 

Given that Dalinar bonded with a spren god I think it's pretty apparent that Bondsmiths are Order 10. Pious/guiding works perfectly.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Moogle

[Kaurne]

In fact, the Skybreakers name fits especially well, since they both fly ad use Destruction (i.e. break things)

[Aminar]

The Attributes have nothing to do with the Order's name. They have everything to do with their powers. Windrunners fly, Skybreakers fly, Lightweavers make illusions... Bondsmiths use Adhesion to make bonds between things.

 

Given that Dalinar bonded with a spren god I think it's pretty apparent that Bondsmiths are Order 10. Pious/guiding works perfectly.

I wouldn't say nothing, more that they are up to interpretation more. But I agree with your assessment of Bondsmiths. Guiding just has a lot to do with Uniting. As does Bonding.

[Luke.spence]

. From there it makes sense that Ranarin as a Truthwatcher would have illumination and Progression(growth)

 

I don't know. We know he has prophecy, and we've seen both Illumination and Progression, and neither of those abilities have mentioned any sort of foresight.

 

I think Truthwatchers are order 8, and that Cohesion has to do with seeing the future.

[Aminar]

Cohesion is a force.  The book refers to it as a Strong Axial connection.

His seeing the future has a lot more to do with calculations and numbers, something that Progression makes all sorts of sense with.

[Luke.spence]

That could very well be. I haven't the slightest hint what the descriptions of Cohesion and Tension are supposed to mean. I just saw Progression as more of a healing/growing thing and not a numbers thing.

[banestar]

I think it makes a lot of sense that Truthwatchers would be 5, Willshapers would be 8, and Bondsmiths would be 10.

 

REASONING

 

From WoR ... "... the Lightweavers and Willshapers also had an affinity to the same ..." -- this quote is in reference to visiting the "far realm of spren". (Page 617). It would stand to reason that Willshapers would be 8, which has Transportation as a surge. I also think it's fair to assume that the domain of "Resolute / Builder" could fit well with this item, though it could fall under Bondsmiths as well.

 

Truthwatchers at 5 would have access to the Illumination surge, which makes sense given their ability to "see". They'd also align with "Learned / Giving" in the Ars Arcanum, which seems to fit given what we know about the one confirmed Truthwatcher.

 

Of course, Bondsmiths then would reflect "Pious / Guiding" -- which fits well with the Bondsmith we know, but truthfully could possibly apply to our Truthwatcher. However, the surges of Tension / Adhesion seem to fit better with the Bondsmith than the surges of Progression and Illumination -- given that they both have an interconnection / adhesion property.

 

The tough part for me is separating Bondsmiths from Truthwatchers. It appears as if both known examples have dabbled a bit in prophecy (something that seems to fit with Illumination) and you could squint and see a way in which either could work. It's really the surges that stand out and make me think that Bondsmiths hit #10, and Truthwatchers hit #5 -- especially since the Truthwatchers and the Lightshapers, which seem to be awfully similar / opposites -- would lay on the chart next to one another.

[Moogle]

I wouldn't say nothing, more that they are up to interpretation more.

 

Can you show any examples of the Attributes having links to the name of the Order?

 

Windrunners - Protecting/Leading

Skybreakers - Just/Confident

Dustbringers - Brave/Obedient

Edgedancers - Loving/Healing

Order 5 (Truthwatchers?) - Learned/Giving

Lightweavers - Creative/Honest

Elsecallers - Wise/Careful

Order 8 (Willshapers?) - Resolute/Builder

Stonewards - Dependable/Resourceful

Order 10 (Bondsmiths!) - Pious/Guiding

 

The only order here I can see as having any connection between their Attributes and the name of their orders is the Lightweavers, and even that is questionable. I'm just not seeing any arguments for why Bondsmiths would be Order 8 based on the connection to Resolute/Builder. I know you agree they're Order 10, but it just doesn't work for any other orders, so far as I see, no matter how much I interpret things.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Moogle

[Edgedancer]

My take on the three unnumbered orders is this.

5th Willshapers: There description kinda reminded me of Ym and his odd behavior which rather clearly fitted the learned/giving attribute and the Willshaping may come from Illumination and not from Shadesmare.

8th Thruthwatchers: Me thinks they may be able to utilize the Transportation Surge to "see" the spiritial relam, described as a place of "absolute Truth." Also that they don´t give explanaitions sound neither giving nor guiding to me.

10th Bondsmiths: The ideal says it all for me. Plus what better order for the Stormfather then the one with the mythological number and the pious attribute?

Edited March 5, 2014 by Edgedancer

[Moogle]

My take on the three unnumbered orders is this.

5th Willshapers: There description kinda reminded me of Ym and his odd behavior which rather clearly fitted the learned/giving attribute and the Willshaping may come from Illumination and not from Shadesmare.

8th Thruthwatchers: Me thinks they may be able to utilize the Transportation Surge to "see" the spiritial relam, described as a place of "absolute Truth." Also that they don´t give explanaitions sound neither giving nor guiding to me.

10th Bondsmiths: The ideal says it all for me. Plus what better order for the Stormfather then the one with the mythological number and the pious attribute?

 

I disagree with your take on 5 and 8 - I'd swap them.

 

We know that the Willshapers were good with Shadesmar:

As to the other orders that were inferior in this visiting of the far realm of spren, the Elsecallers were prodigiously benevolent, allowing others as auxiliary to their visits and interactions; though they did never relinquish their place as prime liaisons with the great ones of the spren; and the Lightweavers and Willshapers both also had an affinity to the same, though neither were the true masters of that realm.

 

We know that the Transportation Surge involves Shadesmar. We know that the Illumination Surge does not. So... Willshapers have to be Order 8 based on the need for them to be good with Shadesmar. Plus, Willshaper - well, Tension has to do with shaping things (making them stiff/floppy), and we know Order 8 has Cohesion which is very similar to Tension. So I think 'shaping' things works perfectly with Cohesion.

 

Illumination and making illusions has a lot to do with knowing the truth - so Truthwatchers works decently well with Illumination. Also, there's the Nightwatcher (link to Cultivation, ie. Order 4), and the heavy links to 'truth' (an attribute that Shallan's spren are involved with) imply to me that the Truthwatchers should be very similar to Order 4 and 6. So... Order 5 for the Truthwatchers in my opinion. Plus, they're the only remaining option.

 

Disclaimer: I am only ~85% confident of my predictions in this post.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Moogle

[Aminar]

Can you show any examples of the Attributes having links to the name of the Order?

 

Windrunners - Protecting/Leading

Skybreakers - Just/Confident

Dustbringers - Brave/Obedient

Edgedancers - Loving/Healing

Order 5 (Truthwatchers?) - Learned/Giving

Lightweavers - Creative/Honest

Elsecallers - Wise/Careful

Order 8 (Willshapers?) - Resolute/Builder

Stonewards - Dependable/Resourceful

Order 10 (Bondsmiths!) - Pious/Guiding

 

The only order here I can see as having any connection between their Attributes and the name of their orders is the Lightweavers, and even that is questionable. I'm just not seeing any arguments for why Bondsmiths would be Order 8 based on the connection to Resolute/Builder. I know you agree they're Order 10, but it just doesn't work for any other orders, so far as I see, no matter how much I interpret things.

Stone is dependable and solid.  As are wards.

Kals Oaths are about Protecting others so far.

Dancing and love are often considered intertwined.

 

Either way, we know that the oaths are related, and that the names can be related to the attributes.  The naming scheme isn't entirely consistant.  But we agree pretty much 100% on which order is where too.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I'm pretty confident that Truthwatchers are #5 and Bondsmith are #10, which would by default put the Willshapers at #8. 

 

It's hard to judge Truthwatchers abilities because we really only have Renarin's fits/numbers and his words by which to work. 

 

Do we have confirmation that each surge works the same for both Orders which share them? I know that Elsecallers and Lightweavers both share the transformation surge, but it seems to me that Shallan's ability to Soulcast is different in what and how she can. Maybe that is related to the little practice Shallan has had, but it could also be that the magic works differently. 

[Aminar]

I'm pretty confident that Truthwatchers are #5 and Bondsmith are #10, which would by default put the Willshapers at #8. 

 

It's hard to judge Truthwatchers abilities because we really only have Renarin's fits/numbers and his words by which to work. 

 

Do we have confirmation that each surge works the same for both Orders which share them? I know that Elsecallers and Lightweavers both share the transformation surge, but it seems to me that Shallan's ability to Soulcast is different in what and how she can. Maybe that is related to the little practice Shallan has had, but it could also be that the magic works differently. 

Shallan and jasnah have discussed Soulcasting as if it happens similarly.  That said, I'm not sure if Jasnah's soulcasting preferences are hers or part of her Radiant order...  I do think Skybreakers have some different surges from Windrunners, but they can also clearly fly...(Based on name only)

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Shallan and jasnah have discussed Soulcasting as if it happens similarly.  That said, I'm not sure if Jasnah's soulcasting preferences are hers or part of her Radiant order...  I do think Skybreakers have some different surges from Windrunners, but they can also clearly fly...(Based on name only)

 

It will be interesting to see if Shallan has an easier time soulcasting organics and whether that has to do with the Surges or preference!

 

Just because "sky" is in the skybreaker name doesn't mean that they can fly... (they probably can, I'm just saying until we see one in action let's reserve judgement  ). Windrunners run on the winds (from the common person perspective), maybe Skybreakers do something that from a common perspective "breaks the skies"

[Moogle]

Just because "sky" is in the skybreaker name doesn't mean that they can fly... (they probably can, I'm just saying until we see one in action let's reserve judgement  )

 

They have the Gravity Surge, which is responsible for Basic Lashings. Why wouldn't they be able to fly?

[Swimmingly]

Maybe they can use the Division surge somehow to accelerate themselves, causing a sonic boom? Or just explosions from the sky?

[Edgedancer]

They have the Gravity Surge, which is responsible for Basic Lashings. Why wouldn't they be able to fly?

Because it´s actually falling.

On a more serious note. Kaladin makes a very big thing out of the skies being his and Syl relates the things Szeth does as something Windrunners do, so it would be kind of undermining to them if others could do it as well.

Furthermore the WoR excerpts speak of unique abilitys for the Orders, if only vaguely so which makes it likely that every order has his own stick.

Lastly If Skybreakers "break the Sky" that sound more like something that works against the sky, like I dunno maybe a zero-G area. 

Admidetly, this is more of a hunch and not proof but it is something.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

They have the Gravity Surge, which is responsible for Basic Lashings. Why wouldn't they be able to fly?

 

What Edgedancer said above, plus to me Shallan and Jasnah's soulcasting is slightly different, though it may be similar in concept. Similarly, the way Windrunner's and Skybreakers utilize/access/make use of the Gravity surge may look or function differently for them. 

 

For me as well, Brandon says that there are 30+ magic systems (or ways of accessing the powers of creation) on Roshar. For the KR it really only seems to matter your intent & actions and the type of Spren you bond which determines your powers. Windrunner's 2 surges really seem to be a set of 3 abilities. Shallan's Lightweaving and Soulcasting right now seem to be very distinct powers. Similarly Jasnah's Soulcasting and "transporting" seem to be distinct in operations and usage. 

 

it remains to be seen I suppose for Skybreakers whether they mesh or blend, but I tend to think that each Order will manifest their access to the shared Surges at least slightly differently.