[OB] The future for Rock

[Xaladin]

Anybody remember in WoK when Rock threw a tree at Kaladin and Rock says "was small tree"?

Rock is a big dude. He is also a strong dude. I don't have a hard time believing a strong dude with Stormlight can pull a shardbow. Isn't Stormlight what powers Shardplate anyway? If anything else supernatural is involved, it has been involved since WoK time or even earlier.

[DocHoliday]

11 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

Not sure if it is enough though to draw the Shardbow at least Kaladin doesn't think so. 

 

I'm not sure Cap'n Kal is 100% accurate here, but I do see your point and it'll bear considering. We do however see instances of people performing great acts of strength with Stormlight. Dalinar uses brute force to stop a Chasmfiend in WoK. Kaladin breaks Shardplate with a spear. These are impressive acts of power.

I Really wish Sigzil would do some math and figure how much Stormlight increases strength...

[Song]

11 hours ago, LinkasZelda said:

Does anybody else feel disappointed that he was the one to kill Amaram tho? There was some sweet poetic justice in Kaladins fight with Amaram and I was REALLY hoping he would get to be the one to kill him. Yeah Rock protected him, and yeah we got more reinforcement of "Kaladin is not alone" but I feel that was presented clearly enough when Dalinar saved the team in Shadesmar, after Kaladin failed to speak the words. Taking away his ability to be the one and kill Amaram was frustrating.

I liked it. It fit so well with the scene. Kalladin faces Amaran, knowing he is going to die, but acknowledging that Bridge 4 has saved him. And then, a member of Bridge 4 saves him from death as well.

In some ways it is like Roshane times 100. He is eaten up with anger and revenge for so many years, then comes to realise how pathetic his nemesis really is. Amaran was the real broken spear.

I just hope dear Rock can forgive himself.

[Michael Portz]

Are there already theories about how far the Horneater's Listener anchestry goes?

Perhaps Horneaters do have a symbiotic relationship with spren just like Listeners; i.e. perhaps they do have different forms, as well, like warriorform, craftform and especially cookform ...

 

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Michael Portz
crafform

[stonedshaman]

You mean like my old joke theory that horneaters have gemhearts and rock will bond with a spren that way and become the Rosharan Hulk 

Edited December 12, 2017 by stonedshaman

[Mircana]

is everyone forgetting that Dalinar lifted a stone 3 or 4 times his own weight when fixing the temple? Stormlight does grant strength, and even if it did not it adds healing and that itself would grant strength.  your muscles and bones would reknit and you could push your body beyond normal limitations.  think of wolverine or Deadpool  

[Michael Portz]

22 minutes ago, Mircana said:

is everyone forgetting that Dalinar lifted a stone 3 or 4 times his own weight when fixing the temple? Stormlight does grant strength, and even if it did not it adds healing and that itself would grant strength.  your muscles and bones would reknit and you could push your body beyond normal limitations.  think of wolverine or Deadpool  

Wasn't that something about persuading the stones to return to their bonded state? *THINK*

[Michael Portz]

1 hour ago, stonedshaman said:

You mean like my old joke theory that horneaters have gemhearts and rock will bond with a spren that way and become the Rosharan Hulk 

If I had known about your theory, I wouldn't have bothered to formulate my own post but linked to it instead :-)

One question: Where is the joke-part??? Gemhearts might be true, sprend bonding might be true, and some kind of hulkform might be true for Horneaters as well :-D

[Michael Portz]

Another example of Rocks stormlight enhanced strength, from chapter 37, The Last Time We March:

Quote

Lunamor roared, charging forward, and his skin started to glow with the power of the Stormlight from his pouch and the spheres he had collected before leaving. He seemed to be carrying the bridge all on his own, towing the others.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (S.390). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle-Version. 

[stonedshaman]

Well I said it originally as a joke but apparently it has some validity.  I mean unless there is a WoBI haven't seen there is no proof as of yet to the horneaters having gemhearts

[bdoble97]

Just now, stonedshaman said:

Well I said it originally as a joke but apparently it has some validity.  I mean unless there is a WoBI haven't seen there is no proof as of yet to the horneaters having gemhearts

Hahhah I would gat that to happen. 

[Vianki]

Quote

 

“A glowing figure stood on some rubble beyond, holding Amaram's enormous Shardbow. The weapon seemed to match Rock, tall and brilliant, a beacon in the darkness.” OB, P. 1187

 

A few thoughts about that quote…

1)      That the bow is “Amaram’s Shardbow” is an assumption made by Kaladin right after the heat of battle. It’s possible he’s incorrect.

2)      “seemed to match” could mean that the size of the thing looked appropriate to Rock's size/stature/strength, since we know he's big, possibly big/strong enough to do this with only a little stormlight

3)      “seemed to match” could mean that it was literally also glowing and brilliant, implying something else.

These points together having me thinking it is definitely possible that the ‘shardbow’ isn’t actually Amaram’s, but Rock’s spren, manifesting as a living, capital-S, Shardbow.

[Knight Oblivion]

20 hours ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

 

I think passages linking Rock to unusual strength, were just Sanderson red-herrings.. He kept leading us to believe that being strong was natural for a Horneater. He showed us feats of strength(like picking up a giant rock) not possible by "normal" folk, but they weren't "impossible" feats...Horneaters may be unusually strong compared to other Rosharns, but I find it hard to believe that Horneaters are so strong that they can accurately use a weapon that is designed for, and has only ever been used by, someone wearing magical(likely spren-aided) armor. If the answer is "Horneaters are just really strong", I'm probably going to be disappointed.

The answer is probably some combination of Horneaters being naturally stronger than purer breeds of Rosharan humans, stormlight's strength augmentation, Rock's skill at the bow, and some lashings. Many are focused so much on Kaladin's disbelief that we forget all the things Rock has going for him. Also, what does Kaladin know about archery or shardbows?

Edited December 12, 2017 by Knight Oblivion

[NotBurtReynolds]

16 minutes ago, Knight Oblivion said:

The answer is probably some combination of Horneaters being naturally stronger than purer breeds of Rosharan humans, stormlight's strength augmentation, Rock's skill at the bow, and some lashings. Many are focused so much on Kaladin's disbelief that we forget all the things Rock has going for him. Also, what does Kaladin know about archery or shardbows?

Like I said, the answer may be "Rock is really strong", I just find that boring. We're dealing with a secretive character whose been foreshadowed as a person who is very special and in particular has been foreshadowed to have a very different relationship with spren, then we've seen from other races. Who uses a weapon that has only been ever been able to be used with the assistance of magic. Sure it could be probably be lashing or strength or whatever. Or, it could be something new and interesting...Which is the camp I default to with Sanderson. All hail, King Lunamor

[Crazy Mraize]

Is it possible he could have lashed the bow tips behind him to pull the bow, then released?  Similar to how kaladin paints object with storm light to affect gravity?

[CosmereAvair]

3 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

Wasn't that something about persuading the stones to return to their bonded state? *THINK*

What if Horneaters have a mild version of this power, because of their heritage with the Parshendi and communicate with spren and talk to them. Rock felt bad after saving Kaladin not just because he killed but  because he talked to a dead/trapped spren(god)?  to make it easier for him to use the bow. And we have seen that spren can create strength in terms of the fact that Chasmfeinds shouldn't exist and would die from the weight of the carapace but with a spren bonded they can. 

[aemetha]

1 hour ago, Knight Oblivion said:

The answer is probably some combination of Horneaters being naturally stronger than purer breeds of Rosharan humans, stormlight's strength augmentation, Rock's skill at the bow, and some lashings. Many are focused so much on Kaladin's disbelief that we forget all the things Rock has going for him. Also, what does Kaladin know about archery or shardbows?

This deserves an upvote.

Skill is a factor in this. The average modern human can't draw and accurately fire an English longbow, yet English peasants during the middle ages, who were in an almost perpetual state of malnutrition and were physically smaller than modern humans did so with regularity. The difference is they trained to do it from a young age, it was a feudal requirement of them. The bow is Rock's weapon of choice, and shardbearers are much more focused with the sword. It's likely Rock has a much higher level of skill with the bow and that this, in addition to his prodigious strength, access to stormlight, and the effects of adrenaline upon seeing his mentor about to die allowed him to perform a feat that few others in other circumstances could replicate.

[Mulk]

40 minutes ago, aemetha said:

the effects of adrenaline

That needed to be said as well.  Adrenaline has made people capable of seemingly superhuman feats of strength in real life. Why not on Roshar as well?

[StormingTexan]

1 hour ago, aemetha said:

This deserves an upvote.

Skill is a factor in this. The average modern human can't draw and accurately fire an English longbow, yet English peasants during the middle ages, who were in an almost perpetual state of malnutrition and were physically smaller than modern humans did so with regularity. The difference is they trained to do it from a young age, it was a feudal requirement of them. The bow is Rock's weapon of choice, and shardbearers are much more focused with the sword. It's likely Rock has a much higher level of skill with the bow and that this, in addition to his prodigious strength, access to stormlight, and the effects of adrenaline upon seeing his mentor about to die allowed him to perform a feat that few others in other circumstances could replicate.

While I agree with the accuracy part which does take skill actually drawing a bow has a lot more to do with strength than skill. It takes about a minute to show someone how to draw a bow. I can easily draw a 70lb bow but my 10 year old son even knowing how to draw it cannot but has no problem with a 20lb draw. 

[aemetha]

1 minute ago, StormingTexan said:

While I agree with the accuracy part which does take skill actually drawing a bow has a lot more to do with strength than skill.

I think, in my personal experience, it's a bit of both. Strength lets you draw the bow, but holding it steady requires a certain skill that is intrinsically a part of that strength. Kind of like the difference between pulling the string and drawing the bow. I have no problem pulling the string on a powerful bow, which I've played around with a few times, but I haven't trained my strength in that manner, so what ends up happening is the bow wobbles around in my hand and I can't practically use it, which I think is a separate skill itself from the actual aiming of a bow. Does that sound right?

[StormingTexan]

52 minutes ago, aemetha said:

I think, in my personal experience, it's a bit of both. Strength lets you draw the bow, but holding it steady requires a certain skill that is intrinsically a part of that strength. Kind of like the difference between pulling the string and drawing the bow. I have no problem pulling the string on a powerful bow, which I've played around with a few times, but I haven't trained my strength in that manner, so what ends up happening is the bow wobbles around in my hand and I can't practically use it, which I think is a separate skill itself from the actual aiming of a bow. Does that sound right?

Yes I get where you are coming from. There is a difference between drawing a bow and being able to shoot one. It is initially learning the proper stance and form then takes skill and practice to produce accuracy. I teach archery to Boy Scouts and we work a lot on stance and form then I'll match a proper draw weight. Some kids can easily draw a 50lb bow but they have a lot more control with a 25lb. On a long bow you want to start the draw pointing the bow up and then lowering as you draw this uses both arms to draw instead of just one. It literally takes a minute to demonstrate but agreed this is just the ability to draw it.  The thing is we know Rock is a good archer so it is not about skill but the strength needed to pull the shardbow. So let's say you are a very skilled archer and weigh 100lbs dripping wet. Chances are you are not going to be able to draw a 250lb bow no matter how skilled you are (just throwing a number out there I have no idea what a shardbows draw is). So strength is the major factor and no amount of skill will overcome the task if it is physically impossible to do so. Unless there is not that big of a difference for Rock to draw a Shardbow compared to a regular longbow (like the difference between a 70lb and 80lb draw)  then I would conceded that skill and familiarity may be enough to compensate but from what we know I do not think that is the case. 

All that being said we do not know the following

1) Exactly how much strength is required to draw a shardbow compared to a regular longbow. Is it 50% more, 100% more or 200% more? 

2) How much stronger is Rock than a normal person.

3) How much (or if)  stormlight increase strength.

 

Edit: Just to add my opinion if it is not clear I do think he was using stormlight to shoot the bow. I think that was pretty obvious from the scene @Vianki posted with Rock glowing with stormlight. The question to me is if he also used surges and if so which ones. I think he did just not sure which one. Not sure if it is relevant but a shardbow is not just a really big bow it is a fabrial and I wonder if this also has soemthing to do with it but no idea what it would be. 

Edited December 12, 2017 by StormingTexan

[davidandrei]

What if rock is sad not because he broke a vow but because he did it while hearing dead spren screaming like a regular shardblade?

Or maybe the dude is a dalinar type where he is suppressing his hulksmash side? 

[KidWayne]

5 minutes ago, davidandrei said:

What if rock is sad not because he broke a vow but because he did it while hearing dead spren screaming like a regular shardblade?

Or maybe the dude is a dalinar type where he is suppressing his hulksmash side? 

My interpretation was (and still is) that Rock was overwhelmed by the implications of what he had done. Primary among those being that he went back on his commitment not to fight in battle, but no less important the realization that he killed a shardbearer and had become king. This is sad for him because of the fact that he had to step over three dead siblings to accomplish it, and the fact that carrying shards requires him to acknowledge and act on that fact. There is no more hiding for King Lunamor, and that means he must confess his lies to Bridge Four and to himself.

IOW, it's very similar to Shallan having to admit to herself that she killed her mother. For Rock, this doesn't result in multiple personalities... just sadness.

[Govir]

46 minutes ago, davidandrei said:

What if rock is sad not because he broke a vow but because he did it while hearing dead spren screaming like a regular shardblade?

This is a good theory, but remember that the shardbows aren't actually like Shardblades (i.e. dead spren). A shardbow is just a very large bow that is specifically designed to be used by a person wearing Shardplate (similar to how a shardhammer is just a very large hammer).

 

1 hour ago, StormingTexan said:

Not sure if it is relevant but a shardbow is not just a really big bow it is a fabrial

I'm going to have to double check this, but I never got the picture that a fabrial was involved. My understanding is that it's just a really big bow, designed to be used by a person in Shardplate. If they were a fabrial, I'd imagine they could be used by anyone, if the weapon were properly infused. Coppermind.net agrees with you though, and says the source is Chapter 12 of tWoK.

[ccstat]

Yes, the "shardbows" are fabrials, or at least augmented with fabrial tech:

Quote

They had brought grandbows: large steel bows with thick strings and such a high draw weight that only a Shardbearer could use them, to fire shafts as thick as three fingers. They were recent creations, devised by Alethi engineers through the use of fabrial science, and each required a small infused gemstone to maintain the strength of its pull without warping the metal.

My thought was that, in addition to stormlight-enhanced strength, Rock may have been able to manipulate/operate the fabrial portion of the bow.

Remember in WoR when they see the bindspren holding rocks to the chasm wall and Syl described natural laws as "an agreement among friends"? I got the impression then that part of surge manipulation is paying off the subcontracting spren with stormlight to do things the way you want. Maybe Rock was able to convince the spren bound in the fabrial to help him shoot the bow?