[OB] The Heralds

[fievelgoespostal]

So what is making the Heralds go insane? I know it is said that the thousands of years spent in Damnation left them broken, but when we first see Jezrien and Kalak they are hardly insane.  I get that 4.5k years has passed before we get into the current SA timeline, but it seems they are rapidly becoming unstable the closer to this Desolation we get to.

I believe at least 3 or 4 Heralds were present at Galivars assassination(IIRC Nalan,Ishar/Kalak, Ash, Jezrien?) and they talk about getting worse( Nalan talks about getting worse towards the end of Oathbringer in his dialogue with Szeth) but they hardly seem insane.  Jezrien is there and seems as insane as he is when Moash murders him.  But by 6-8 years later,it seems Ishar has gone off his rockers completely, Nalan is about to join the Voidbringers( although he doesnt seem to be terribly insane). Ash seems semi-normal.  How is it that it is implied that the rest of the Heralds are as crazy/broken as Taln who spent 4.5k years being tortured?  

 

Also, as a sidenote :  Is it possible that Jezrien being insane gave Nalan terribly wrong information, leading him to seek out and kill Surgebinders?  From what the Stormfather said, it seems that the only way for the Voidbringers to return would be Taln breaking in Damnation.  It is implied somewhere in Oathbringer that one of the Heralds thought that Surgebinding might cause an imbalance and was the reason for Nalan doing his thing.

 

[RShara she/her]

I think breaking the Oathpact has had some lasting effect on their psyches.  Also, just being alive that dang long might have some funnnny effects on them.  Living every day with the knowledge that they broke their oath to Honor, of all people, lied to an entire planet, and were being honored (haha) for something they didn't do (actually kind of broke), plus likely a buttload of PTSD, for 4500 years......wow.

Also, it was Ishar that told Nale that surgebinders were a danger.  Given that Ishar is actually completely insane as well, his information is questionable at best.

Quote

“I visited Ishar,” Nin continued. “You call him Ishu-son-God. He has always been the most wise of us. I did not … want to believe … what had happened.” 

Szeth nodded. He had seen that. After the first Everstorm, Nin had insisted that the Voidbringers hadn’t returned. He had given excuse after excuse, until eventually he’d been forced to admit what he was seeing.

“I worked for thousands of years to prevent another Desolation,” Nin continued. “Ishar warned me of the danger. Now that Honor is dead, other Radiants might upset the balance of the Oathpact. Might undermine certain … measures we took, and give an opening to the enemy.”

 

[Calderis he/him]

10 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think breaking the Oathpact has had some lasting effect on their psyches.  Also, just being alive that dang long might have some funnnny effects on them.  Living every day with the knowledge that they broke their oath to Honor, of all people, lied to an entire planet, and were being honored (haha) for something they didn't do (actually kind of broke), plus likely a buttload of PTSD, for 4500 years......wow.

Also add in the fact that they are heavily suffused enough with Honor's investiture to be immortal... That much Investiture of any type has an effect on the soul.

So with that on mind, they are sustained indefinitely by Honor itself, while living under the weight of their broken oaths. That schism between who they are and what they've done has got to be almost physically painful. 

[fievelgoespostal]

6 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think breaking the Oathpact has had some lasting effect on their psyches.  Also, just being alive that dang long might have some funnnny effects on them.  Living every day with the knowledge that they broke their oath to Honor, of all people, lied to an entire planet, and were being honored (haha) for something they didn't do (actually kind of broke), plus likely a buttload of PTSD, for 4500 years......wow.

Also, it was Ishar that told Nale that surgebinders were a danger.  Given that Ishar is actually completely insane as well, his information is questionable at best.

 

Yeah, I get what you are saying. It almost seems implied that they are being afflicted in some way..in some way more than what you describe ( which I agree with btw).

 

At the end of Edgedancer, when Nalan realizes the Desolations have returned he says "Storms. Jezrien..Ishar... I have failed" . He also seems genuinely distraught. Lift thinks that he seems to come out of some sort of daze.  This, along with your quote from OB above, makes it hard to understand how someone who knows who the enemy is (Odium) and the stakes could side with Odium. 

 

It also seems that either Ishar isnt as insane as the Stormfather thinks, or Ash hasnt seen him in some time.  She says something of the effect that she needs to see him and that he would know what to do. We know Nalan went to see him after his encounter with Lift in Edgedancer.

[RShara she/her]

2 minutes ago, fievelgoespostal said:

At the end of Edgedancer, when Nalan realizes the Desolations have returned he says "Storms. Jezrien..Ishar... I have failed" . He also seems genuinely distraught. Lift thinks that he seems to come out of some sort of daze.  This, along with your quote from OB above, makes it hard to understand how someone who knows who the enemy is (Odium) and the stakes could side with Odium. 

I wonder if he went to see Ishar, who convinced him to side with Odium.  Ishar wants to conquer the world and using the Parshendi to soften up the other kingdoms could be a motivation.  In fact, didn't he do just that?

[fievelgoespostal]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

I wonder if he went to see Ishar, who convinced him to side with Odium.  Ishar wants to conquer the world and using the Parshendi to soften up the other kingdoms could be a motivation.  In fact, didn't he do just that?

This sounds likely actually .The Stormfather said to Dalinar " He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man" .  It would make sense then that he would side with Odium if thats the case. It seems part of their insanity is the insane (no pun intended) amount of guilt they carry.

[RShara she/her]

I'd forgotten that Ishar wanted *everyone* dead, including himself.  Good point!

[The One Who Connects he/him]

11 hours ago, fievelgoespostal said:

This, along with your quote from OB above, makes it hard to understand how someone who knows who the enemy is (Odium) and the stakes could side with Odium. 

Just because he is on the Dawnsinger's side, doesn't mean he necessarily sided with Odium.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

When Skybreakers are about to decide to follow Dawnsingers. Why now? Why not before?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So this is a little complicated. Until they came back, by Nale's interpretation, then the law of the land was human. When they returned, the law of the land <became> Dawnsinger. And at that point, it was his job to <switch to them>. It is his logic, but you don't have to agree with that logic. Because Nale's logic is maybe not the best.

---

11 hours ago, fievelgoespostal said:

Is it possible that Ishar being insane gave Nalan terribly wrong information, leading him to seek out and kill Surgebinders?

Make inferences:

Quote

CCQ
I just read Edgedancer. I was just wondering... Did Ishar deceive Nalan on purpose or was he just wrong-- he had wrong information?

Brandon Sanderson
All the Heralds are insane, and it manifests in different ways. Do not trust anything any Herald says. Ever.

CCQ
Okay.

Brandon Sanderson
Nale trusts Ishar too much.

CCQ
Okay, but so did he do it on purpose, or...?

Brandon Sanderson
Um... So "on purpose" is a difficult thing when you're referring to someone with the psychology that Ishar has.

CCQ
Did he know what it was-- that it was a lie?

Brandon Sanderson
*sighs* Alright, I'll RAFO that until I get to him, but the answer is kind of a yes and a no. Okay? So there is part of him that knows and there is part of him that doesn't want to believe it. And yet the things he's been doing lately in Roshar are done because he knows what's coming.

[RShara she/her]

Also, this instance from Oathbringer makes me think they are feeling some of Taln's torment.

Quote

Dalinar took a chug, then handed the bottle back to Ahu. “How are the voices?”

“Soft, today. They chant about ripping me apart. Eating my flesh. Drinking my blood.”

@The One Who Connects:  I was totally going to quote that WoB but you beat me to it

 

Quote

“Madness,” Ahu said, then giggled. “I used to think it wasn’t my fault. But you know, we can’t escape what we did? We let them in. We attracted them, befriended them, took them out to dance and courted them. It is our fault. You open yourself to it, and you pay the price. They ripped my brain out and made it dance! I watched.”

What do you suppose he means by that, though?  Given that he's mad, and anything he says should be taken with a big hunk of salt...

Do you suppose opening yourself up to the Nahel bond opens yourself up to other things that are...not so healthy?  I ask because the only thing I can think of that would fit "attracted them, befriended them..." are the spren.

Edited December 5, 2017 by RShara

[SilverTiger she/her]

17 minutes ago, RShara said:

What do you suppose he means by that, though?  Given that he's mad, and anything he says should be taken with a big hunk of salt...

Shouldn't it be a vial of copper?

 

[RShara she/her]

2 hours ago, SilverTiger said:

Shouldn't it be a vial of copper?

Or a blob of crem.  Are the oceans on Roshar salty?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

The most interesting thing to me (except Nale, who is always interesting) is Ishar. What is his madness? He seems to be setting himself up as god, and seems to kind of believe that he is one too. Either he wants to unite like Dalinar, but in a very twisted way (considering that he is the Bondsmith Herald, I can totally see this). Or he wants to kill everyone. I can´t really see what good that would do, except end everyones suffering earlier...

Also, wonder why he hasn´t gone back for his Blade? Feels like he would like to have it, considering that he thinks that he is god. 

[RShara she/her]

Just now, Ookla the Toasted said:

The most interesting thing to me (except Nale, who is always interesting) is Ishar. What is his madness? He seems to be setting himself up as god, and seems to kind of believe that he is one too. Either he wants to unite like Dalinar, but in a very twisted way (considering that he is the Bondsmith Herald, I can totally see this). Or he wants to kill everyone. I can´t really see what good that would do, except end everyones suffering earlier...

Also, wonder why he hasn´t gone back for his Blade? Feels like he would like to have it, considering that he thinks that he is god. 

I think it's all of the above for Ishar, considering what Brandon said.  Uppermost, he think he is God, and everyone should worship him.  Below that, he wants everyone dead.  And deep down, he wants to be dead himself.

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

18 hours ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

Also add in the fact that they are heavily suffused enough with Honor's investiture to be immortal... That much Investiture of any type has an effect on the soul.

So with that on mind, they are sustained indefinitely by Honor itself, while living under the weight of their broken oaths. That schism between who they are and what they've done has got to be almost physically painful. 

This is the best explanation I've seen.

[Mulk he/him]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Eagle said:

This is the best explanation I've seen.

I'd throw in as well that it is possible they were feeling some of Taln's pain for all 4500 years as he was tortured, and they had all already broken to torture.

[fievelgoespostal]

Another possibility is that maybe the Heralds suffered the same thing as the Voidbringers each time they went to Damnation and returned . The Stormfather said that each time the Fused were reawakened from Damnation they were "injured" mentally.

[Arch he/him]

The Stormfather told Dalinar that the Heralds were warned by Honor not to linger after a desolation ended. At first I thought this was just about putting the oathpack in danger, but perhaps this affected their psyches as well? Jezrien is broken at the end of the last desolation, but he still seems a lot more stable there then 4 thousand years later.

[kaellok he/him]

On 12/4/2017 at 9:54 PM, fievelgoespostal said:

At the end of Edgedancer, when Nalan realizes the Desolations have returned he says "Storms. Jezrien..Ishar... I have failed" . He also seems genuinely distraught. Lift thinks that he seems to come out of some sort of daze.  This, along with your quote from OB above, makes it hard to understand how someone who knows who the enemy is (Odium) and the stakes could side with Odium. 

In OB, Shallan asks Pattern what he thinks of Hoid; Pattern responds that Hoid seems like one of them (spren).  Spren act according to their nature, unless they have been corrupted, and in that case, they act according to their corrupted nature.  I think it likely that the Heralds are very akin to a corrupted spren at this point.  With all of the Investiture imbued within them and millions of people that literally worship them, plus millions more that revere them in different ways, I can't see how that wouldn't have made an impact on them in a similar (if lesser) way than how the Stormfather was changed by the same belief systems.

[Sean Han]

Other than the mental issue of Heralds, I’m wondering why Nin (Nalan) had so much trouble hunting down Lift? IMHO, even Szeth (before reborn) could finish Lift easily, couldn’t he? And it seems that Nin is some levels higher than Szeth (Herald > > Radiant Knight), he should’ve killed Lift without any difficulty.

Any clue?

[RShara she/her]

He didn't realize she got Stormlight from food instead of spheres.

[Sean Han]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

He didn't realize she got Stormlight from food instead of spheres.

Well, sounds reasonable. It’s a common scenario that The Big Evil Guys failed because they had their enemy underestimated.

[Fulminato he/him]

6 hours ago, Sean Han said:

Other than the mental issue of Heralds, I’m wondering why Nin (Nalan) had so much trouble hunting down Lift? IMHO, even Szeth (before reborn) could finish Lift easily, couldn’t he? And it seems that Nin is some levels higher than Szeth (Herald > > Radiant Knight), he should’ve killed Lift without any difficulty.

Any clue?

nale cannot broken the law. in wor he caught lift easy, yes she escape form him after, but don't think her runaway can last for long. but gawx after be named prime pardon lift. and without any charge he cannot act against her.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Fulminato

[RShara she/her]

8 hours ago, Sean Han said:

Well, sounds reasonable. It’s a common scenario that The Big Evil Guys failed because they had their enemy underestimated.

I don't think he underestimated her, he just didn't have all the facts.

[notsawerd]

My opinion was Nale was too easily thwarted in both WoR and Edgedancer.  The only way I could make sense of it was that he really just didn't try all that hard.

[Blazenella he/him]

One thing you have forgotten is that the Heralds "Share each others pain", so maybe the other Heralds are feeling a part of Taln's torture.