(OB) Lets Talk Moash

[Toaster Retribution]

So, Moash. What does everyone think of him (I suspect most people place him somewhere with Sadeas and Amaram)? Personally, I found his whole indifference about everything interesting, and I am excited to see how his relationship with the Voidbringers will develop, and who he will end up being as Vyre. 

What is everyones opinion on him?

Also, I'll tag @Dreamstorm here, because of stated interest in a thread like this.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Ookla the Toasted

[Khyrindor]

Voidbringers be like:

 

In all seriousness, I'm interested to see where it goes.

Hopefully, it goes with him being Odium's tool, until Odium grows tired of him and tries to have him disposed. Then Moash slinks back to Kaladin, and Kaladin kills him.

I'll have to reevaluate my opinion on a reread, but I didn't really like Moash's chapters. I see why they were in there, but they were the only ones in the whole book I was uninterested in and tempted to skip. I do hope Brandon puts a little more feeling into him in the next book, just to make it a bit more believable. It wasn't handled 100% to my satisfaction. But again, I'm interested in seeing where it goes. Maybe it's redeemable (the plot, not Moash, he's crem).

 

[Leuthie]

From the perspective of watching a villain being created, Moash's progression has been great.  He's a perfect anti-Jezrien, which seems to be what Odium (and BS)  is setting him up as.  

Edited December 2, 2017 by Leuthie

[maxal]

I personally hated reading Moash's chapters. I had no interest in time nor did I have any interest into his character. First, he read like Kaladin 2.0 which I thought was uninteresting, then he made a turn for the worst, which while an interesting twist wasn't interesting to read from a viewpoint's perspective. 

Else, I have no interest into Moash as a character. I hope he dies quickly so we stop having to hear about him 

[MonsterMetroid]

I actually like moash and I will admit, some of his chapters I felt like could use some work, but I really hope to see some redemption from him and a bit more caring. However I think that is part of what is interesting is he is trying not to think about what he has done because it is still hard for him to aceept how he betrayed bridge 4 and Kaladin.

[Darvys]

I could have cared for his arc if he had actually decided to side with the Listeners for whatever reason he chose, not just going with the flow like the moron he is.

But well, reading his chapters made me rethink my best quote of all time, it's now this : "I'm no fool" - Moash, Words of Radiance.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Darvys

[Toaster Retribution]

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

From the perspective of watching a villain being created, Moash's progression has been great.  He's a perfect anti-Jezrien, which seems to be what Odium (and BS)  is setting him up as.  

I kind of agree with this. I hope he won't get a redemption arc, because we actually get to see how he becomes a villain, first-hand, which is interesting.

[king of nowhere]

At first, I hated him. Then, when he stood up for the downtrodden singers, I hoped he could have a redemption arc and lead a revolution against the fused. but no, he just killed humans. because both sides used him as expendable troop, but the singers at least gave him sturdy boots and gloves. so I hated him even more.

1 hour ago, maxal said:

 I hope he dies quickly so we stop having to hear about him 

I hope he dies slowly and we keep hearing his wailing and gnashing of teeth for a long time. guy deserves it.

[straits]

Within the context of the story, I'm not surprised about Moash "betraying the human cause". Running back to the captain of a highprince's bodyguard for redemption wouldn't have made sense to his background. He comes from an oppressed segment of society, and due to a chain of events that landed him in a bridge crew, he was in the position to feel the worst Alethi society can offer to someone of his heritage.

I liked Elhokar's character, but from a political standpoint, a turncoat slave, from the Alethi army, ramming a spear into the head of the leader of the society that made him a slave does not constitute a moral crime.

However, given that we're privy to Moash's inner thinking though, it's clear that his deeds don't intend to liberate the oppressed population of Alethkar, despite his allegiance to the awakened parshmen. He's seemingly entered some nihilistic mentality and is going along with the bloodbath of humans out of some blandly morbid curiosity. The only thing that seemed to affect him was Kaladin's expression when he killed Elhokar. 

All in all, I'm curious as to how his story will end.

[king of nowhere]

24 minutes ago, straits said:

Within the context of the story, I'm not surprised about Moash "betraying the human cause". Running back to the captain of a highprince's bodyguard for redemption wouldn't have made sense to his background. He comes from an oppressed segment of society, and due to a chain of events that landed him in a bridge crew, he was in the position to feel the worst Alethi society can offer to someone of his heritage.

 

It's not that. Nobody expected him to fight for a brightlord. I expected him to run away with the group of trained singers. maybe do something like the listener ancestors and hide from their gods

[Andy92]

Although I agree that some of Moash's PoV's were uninteresting to read about (mostly his early ones), I think he's being setup pretty well as a main antagonist. Odium spent the entire book trying to convince Dalinar that his past mistakes weren't his fault because Odium was the one making him do those things. While Dalinar withstands this temptation, Moash falls right into it. Moash even alludes to this later in the book when he's talking to himself, justifying the choices he has made because "they aren't his fault." 

I'm interested to see where he goes now that Odium is under his skin. Although his chapters in Oathbringer weren't very interesting at times, I am interested to see what becomes of him moving forward. And we need some new antagonists in this series that aren't millennia-old super spren...

[FuzzyWordsmith]

I really hope Moash doesn't get a redmption arc. I am firmly of the belief that some characters should remain unredeemed. There are a lot of stories where defeat=redemption, or villains are redeemed in death, or by death, or after death. Some evil people should just stay evil and be remembered as evil. If every villain ends the story redeemed, they story gets old pretty quickly. And I do hope Kaladin kills has to kill him. There are far too many stories where the friend turned villain is not killed by the hero because of sentiment. At the end of the day, Moash is Kaladin's fault.

[Toaster Retribution]

15 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

And we need some new antagonists in this series that aren't millennia-old super spren...

This. I would like some human/Listener long-term antagonists. Sadeas, Graves and Amaram are all dead, Venli and Szeth are having redemption arcs... Mr T and Moash (and probably Nale as well) are the ones we got. Mraize is there too, but he is basically a wild-card, but yeah... well-developed long-term villains would be awesome.

14 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I really hope Moash doesn't get a redmption arc. I am firmly of the belief that some characters should remain unredeemed. There are a lot of stories where defeat=redemption, or villains are redeemed in death, or by death, or after death. Some evil people should just stay evil and be remembered as evil.

Call me silly, but I wouldn't call Moash evil. He has given up on society, and on the human race. Circumstances has formed him into the person he is. I don't want a redemption arc either, but I wouldn't say that Moash deserves to be remembered as evil. I think he is more complicated than that.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Toasted said:

Call me silly, but I wouldn't call Moash evil. He has given up on society, and on the human race. Circumstances has formed him into the person he is. I don't want a redemption arc either, but I wouldn't say that Moash deserves to be remembered as evil. I think he is more complicated than that.

So, perhaps I should clarify. For one thing, I think we have different understandings of evil. For example, I do not consider Szeth's actions in the first two books evil. I don't consider Szeth evil at all. I think what I am trying to say is that I feel it's about remorse. I would say that I consider Amaram less evil than Moash, because ultimately, Amaram felt remorse. Hell, even King T feels remorse on his dumber days. I cannot remember any indication of Moash feeling remorse. In his case, his nihilism and fatalism are excuses to avoid feeling remorse. I would be happy to reconsider if you can show me textual evidence of him feeling remorse. Wow, I said the word remorse a lot. Remorse remorse remorse.

[Necessary Eagle]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Toasted said:

I kind of agree with this. I hope he won't get a redemption arc, because we actually get to see how he becomes a villain, first-hand, which is interesting.

Honestly, given the "mass murderers find redemption" theme of Oathbringer, I wouldn't be too surprised if SA ended with Odium himself laying down his +5 Golden Scepter of Symbolism and reciting the first oath. With the ghosts of Sadeas and Amaram as his squires.

[Toaster Retribution]

12 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

So, perhaps I should clarify. For one thing, I think we have different understandings of evil. For example, I do not consider Szeth's actions in the first two books evil. I don't consider Szeth evil at all. I think what I am trying to say is that I feel it's about remorse. I would say that I consider Amaram less evil than Moash, because ultimately, Amaram felt remorse. Hell, even King T feels remorse on his dumber days. I cannot remember any indication of Moash feeling remorse. In his case, his nihilism and fatalism are excuses to avoid feeling remorse. I would be happy to reconsider if you can show me textual evidence of him feeling remorse. Wow, I said the word remorse a lot. Remorse remorse remorse.

I should clarify as well: I really don't want to call people evil. Sauron is evil. Voldemort is evil. Straff Venture is also evil. But I think that people are generally too complex to be called evil. I don't think I would call any SA character evil (maaaaybe Sadeas, but it is debateable). 

As for Moash feeling remorse... I remember him being sad at the end of WoR. I also think that there are two reasons for why Moash isn't seen seeing much remorse.

1. He has given up hope. He doesn't think that anything will be good again. He think that humans are evil, and that oppression will never disappear. And thus, there is no point in feeling bad, since everything is bad. I am also pretty sure about the fact that he hates himself, which might have to do with him recognizing that he is doing bad things.

2. He has not done very much that he considers bad. He killed Elhokae, who he hated and longed to kill. Then he killed Jezrien, who he had no connection too. In fact, since humanity sucks and Jezrien was one of their "gods", I can see Moash blaming him a bit for how things look. 

The one time we have seen Moash do something that he feels is wrong (failing and betraying Kaladin) he has been feeling remorse for it.

[RShara]

I felt like we were beaten over the head with the whole, Moash doesn't care about anything and doesn't think he deserves anything good, theme.  It was interesting at first, but then it kept going and going....and going...and going...I just started skimming his chapters.  More time spent on characters who were doing things, and actually developing as characters, would have been nicer than listening to Moash mope for far too many chapters.  His motivations are trite and his thoughts are bland.

I don't even hate him.  I'm just completely and utterly disinterested in him for 99% of his viewpoint chapters.

[Dreamstorm]

Like a lot of people expressed, I was hoping for a bit more here.  There were two points where I thought Moash could turn about - one was his first viewpoint when the Fused caught his caravan and he relied on his Bridge Four strength and the second was when he had the deja vu moment when he was put on the bridge crews of the Fused army.  Neither had the redemptive effect, and I did think the gap between his deja vu moment and when he met Kaladin's wall crew and killed Elhokar didn't allow me to see if the second moment caused any emotional development.  Right now, I feel like he's too much the "bad guy" where we are supposed to see nuance based on the fact we understand his history and where his anger comes from.  I always find it more powerful to meet a bad guy (TLR for instance) and then later learn redemptive aspects of his character.  Since I do think Moash is set up as a big bad guy, especially since he will have an inevitable re-clash with Kaladin, I hope we get more development from him.  I'm doing a WoK re-read, and I'm finding him to be surly and hateful from the start, which makes me wonder how he and Kaladin became so close based on anything besides the fact Moash was a good fighter.  He doesn't seem to behave in any way which would make him worth Kaladin's trust.

[Fulminato]

33 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Like a lot of people expressed, I was hoping for a bit more here.  There were two points where I thought Moash could turn about - one was his first viewpoint when the Fused caught his caravan and he relied on his Bridge Four strength and the second was when he had the deja vu moment when he was put on the bridge crews of the Fused army.  Neither had the redemptive effect, and I did think the gap between his deja vu moment and when he met Kaladin's wall crew and killed Elhokar didn't allow me to see if the second moment caused any emotional development.  Right now, I feel like he's too much the "bad guy" where we are supposed to see nuance based on the fact we understand his history and where his anger comes from.  I always find it more powerful to meet a bad guy (TLR for instance) and then later learn redemptive aspects of his character.  Since I do think Moash is set up as a big bad guy, especially since he will have an inevitable re-clash with Kaladin, I hope we get more development from him.  I'm doing a WoK re-read, and I'm finding him to be surly and hateful from the start, which makes me wonder how he and Kaladin became so close based on anything besides the fact Moash was a good fighter.  He doesn't seem to behave in any way which would make him worth Kaladin's trust.

moash is the only brideman to treat kaladin like a man and not a holy demi-god to worship. it is easy make a friendship bond in a dangerous situation with a peer then a subordinate.

moash was put in the bridge crews without a slave brand, only a hothead to send to die. moash owes everything to kaladin, his life foremost, his traning, he even give the shards to moash, i don't think can find in the history of roshar another event like this. and i the end of WoR moash nearly kill him for is petty vengeange. over all oathbringer he follow the same path of WoR (and WotK).no redempion for him.

[WhiteLeeopard]

22 hours ago, straits said:

I liked Elhokar's character, but from a political standpoint, a turncoat slave, from the Alethi army, ramming a spear into the head of the leader of the society that made him a slave does not constitute a moral crime.

Circumstances change everything. If Moash had killed Elhokar while he cowered behind guards and sent men out to die for him it would be very different. Except thats not how Moash killed Elhokar is it? Nope. Elhokar was protecting his 3 year old son with his own body, leading the charge to his palace in an attempt to free his city and wife from Odium, and begining to say the words to join a group of Knights based on Honor and personal growth. So Moash kicked the child aside, and killed his father before his eyes stopping his chance to gain the power to fight for his people. 

I have never been an Elhokar supporter, quite the opposite actually. But fact is, saying Elhokar deserved to die for his crimed years before against Moash is like saying Dalinar deserves to die for what he did as the Blackthorn. Are they guilty of terrible deeds? Yes. Do they deserve to die for them? No. Why? Because they are not the people they were when they did those deeds. What Moash did was the equivalent of killing Dalinar just as he came out of his meeting with Cultivation. Killing someone for past crimes just as he was about to start making amends for them. At the least it is a trickery slope.

21 hours ago, Ookla the Toasted said:

Call me silly, but I wouldn't call Moash evil. He has given up on society, and on the human race. Circumstances has formed him into the person he is. I don't want a redemption arc either, but I wouldn't say that Moash deserves to be remembered as evil. I think he is more complicated than that.

Moash is evil because he betrayed his friends. If he had given up on society, whatever. But on his friends? Brother in arms? That is evil, and there is no other way to color it. Also, everyone in the bridge crews has gone through things at least as bad as poor Moash if not worse, and now they are glowing.

3 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Like a lot of people expressed, I was hoping for a bit more here.  There were two points where I thought Moash could turn about - one was his first viewpoint when the Fused caught his caravan and he relied on his Bridge Four strength and the second was when he had the deja vu moment when he was put on the bridge crews of the Fused army.  

I think those were just there to show how Moash just excels at one thing. Throwing to the trash all the opportunities he is given.

[straits]

56 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Circumstances change everything. If Moash had killed Elhokar while he cowered behind guards and sent men out to die for him it would be very different. Except thats not how Moash killed Elhokar is it? Nope. Elhokar was protecting his 3 year old son with his own body, leading the charge to his palace in an attempt to free his city and wife from Odium, and begining to say the words to join a group of Knights based on Honor and personal growth. So Moash kicked the child aside, and killed his father before his eyes stopping his chance to gain the power to fight for his people.

In the process of overthrowing a king (a tyrant from the perspective of someone in the lowest strata of the kingdom's society) you aren't going to challenge him to an honorable duel to the death.

You'd get laughed out of the court, and then hanged. Remember the treatment Kaladin got when he challenged Amaram, a mid-tier lord? Jail. And right after saving the sons of a highprince in an extremely outmatched duel. So no, I don't think that the circumstances of Elhokar protecting his son somehow immunizes him morally from being attacked by an ex-slave. Because there is no one "correct" way of murdering a king when you have been in the lowest segment of society that he rules. Any method goes.

On liberating the city from Odium - here I agree. The very nature of the conflict in Alethkar had changed; it had very little to do with darkeyed liberation and everything to do with parshmen liberation. Moash either didn't realize, or didn't care that he was on the side of a malevolent Shard vessel, which damns him.

Quote

 

I have never been an Elhokar supporter, quite the opposite actually. But fact is, saying Elhokar deserved to die for his crimed years before against Moash is like saying Dalinar deserves to die for what he did as the Blackthorn. Are they guilty of terrible deeds? Yes. Do they deserve to die for them? No. Why? Because they are not the people they were when they did those deeds. What Moash did was the equivalent of killing Dalinar just as he came out of his meeting with Cultivation. Killing someone for past crimes just as he was about to start making amends for them. At the least it is a trickery slope.

 

This is indeed a very slippery slope. Because you are applying a moral system that we ourselves in the real world don't, or shouldn't, use. Plenty of people in jail rot there and are not given the chance to improve. And I think most of the public in our world is fine with that.

Dalinar coming out of his meeting with Cultivation reminds me a bit of the movie Angel Heart, where an unredeemable criminal takes on the psyche of an innocent man in a bargain with the devil so that he can escape his past through amnesia. Just because Dalinar artificially altered his psyche, does not make him innocent.

And to be clear - Dalinar was, and is, a war criminal of the highest order, who waged war on the aggressor's side throughout his entire youth and middle years. I agree that he is making amends, but if he were tried and convicted, and sentenced to life in prison/execution for his crimes, after the events of the Stormlight Archive, I would be in agreement with the outcome.

EDIT: for the sake of fairness, the information we received about the Thrill and its effect on some humans of Roshar, some of the blame for the crimes can arguably be lifted from Dalinar.

Edited December 3, 2017 by straits

[WhiteLeeopard]

29 minutes ago, straits said:

This is indeed a very slippery slope. Because you are applying a moral system that we ourselves in the real world don't, or shouldn't, use. Plenty of people in jail rot there and are not given the chance to improve. And I think most of the public in our world is fine with that.

Dalinar coming out of his meeting with Cultivation reminds me a bit of the movie Angel Heart, where an unredeemable criminal takes on the psyche of an innocent man in a bargain with the devil so that he can escape his past through amnesia. Just because Dalinar artificially altered his psyche, does not make him innocent.

And to be clear - Dalinar was, and is, a war criminal of the highest order, who waged war on the aggressor's side throughout his entire youth and middle years. I agree that he is making amends, but if he were tried and convicted, and sentenced to life in prison/execution for his crimes, after the events of the Stormlight Archive, I would be in agreement with the outcome.

EDIT: for the sake of fairness, the information we received about the Thrill and its effect on some humans of Roshar, some of the blame for the crimes can arguably be lifted from Dalinar.

I'm not entirely decided on this point. But at the end of the day I tend to not apply our world's, time's and society's rules to epics. Simply because they are other worlds, times and societies. Currently their entire world's options are to die and become slaves, or to follow men that would be considered criminals in our world. Following our world's morality in those situations won't even be an option. And to be perfectly honest, when chosing survival of their race over destruction people will not care who they follow so long as it leads to victory.

Moash broke any claim to morality when he killed a man whose main focus was on protecting a child at the time. Basically it showed who and what he was at the deepest recesses of his soul. He cared nothing for the humans, the alethi, the darkeyes, the innocent or anyone when he did that. He just killed Elhokar for his petty revenge, even though the world was kind of ending and there were problems magnitudes larger to deal with.

[king of nowhere]

5 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

  I'm doing a WoK re-read, and I'm finding him to be surly and hateful from the start, which makes me wonder how he and Kaladin became so close based on anything besides the fact Moash was a good fighter.  He doesn't seem to behave in any way which would make him worth Kaladin's trust.

he was always hateful from the start, and I never liked him. kaladin however had a lot of darkness in him. i think that's part of the reason they got along: there was a bit of moash inside kaladin. i am so glad to see him putting that part aside.

And by the way, speaking of elokhar, he wasn't even the real responsible for the death of moash's grandparents. roshone was. elokhar was simply a fool.

 

1 hour ago, straits said:

 

And to be clear - Dalinar was, and is, a war criminal of the highest order, who waged war on the aggressor's side throughout his entire youth and middle years. I agree that he is making amends, but if he were tried and convicted, and sentenced to life in prison/execution for his crimes, after the events of the Stormlight Archive, I would be in agreement with the outcome.

 

EDIT: for the sake of fairness, the information we received about the Thrill and its effect on some humans of Roshar, some of the blame for the crimes can arguably be lifted from Dalinar.

I think, considering his sterling behavior after he got his memory wiped, a judge may apply some leniency. dalinar would still be subject to some harsh sentence, though. Maybe he'd be imprisoned but he would be allowed to keep doing his "job" in prison. which dalinar would accept and perform with honor and distinction, eventually earning a pardon.

 

Edited December 3, 2017 by king of nowhere

[mariapapadia]

5 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

 I'm doing a WoK re-read, and I'm finding him to be surly and hateful from the start, which makes me wonder how he and Kaladin became so close based on anything besides the fact Moash was a good fighter.  He doesn't seem to behave in any way which would make him worth Kaladin's trust.

I also think is was their common hatred towards lighteyes and the hardships they suffered because of them, that brought them closer. I recently read an article that said the best friends/hips are made over common hate for the same things ( I can attest that is true in many of my friendships  ) 

[Starla]

Do we know if Moash's eyes remained light after giving up his shardblade? I can't recall if it's mentioned in the text.