[OB] Argent's "Secret Renarin WoB", a.k.a. The Page™

[Argent he/him]

12 minutes ago, Yata said:

Glys is Corrupted by Odium but this doesn't change the Spren's Power.

I think I disagree. I agree that Glys was most likely a Truthwatcher spren once, and had the same kind of access to Progression and Illumination as all the other Truthwatcher spren, but Odium's investiture (through Sja-anat's Enlightenment) has changed the way he manipulate one or both of those Surges. 

[yulerule]

Regarding Renarin, did anybody notice that the way his inner Stormlight was described differently?

Quote

A well blossomed inside of him. Power like he’d never before felt, an awesome, overwhelming strength. Stormlight unending. A source of it so vast, he was stunned.

This is moments after Honor's Perpendicularity, but I think all other Radiants breathed in Stormlight from the gems scattered all over.

[Argent he/him]

3 minutes ago, yulerule said:

Regarding Renarin, did anybody notice that the way his inner Stormlight was described differently?

This is moments after Honor's Perpendicularity, but I think all other Radiants breathed in Stormlight from the gems scattered all over.

I don't know, my impression was that all the Radiants got supercharged initially, but the ones who actively kept using their Stormlight had to recharge from the conveniently spilled gems. 

[Kav]

I’m going with Renarin having regular Surgebinding Regrowth and Voidbinding Illumination. Why would Brandon point to that page if Renarin just had a corrupted form of Surgebinding?

Assuming that this is the case and that Sja-Anat will actually change sides, do we think she may purposefully corrupt other Radiant spren to give them access to voidbinding? It makes for a huge set of new powers and more interestingly resonances that haven’t been considered before, after all we’ve seen what Renarin can do with just one combination. 

[yulerule]

3 minutes ago, Argent said:

I don't know, my impression was that all the Radiants got supercharged initially, but the ones who actively kept using their Stormlight had to recharge from the conveniently spilled gems. 

Maybe something to ask Brandon. Even so, inside Radiants, Stormlight is described as storming, raging, etc. He feels it as a well. (Association: Calm, placid)

[Leyrann]

5 minutes ago, yulerule said:

Maybe something to ask Brandon. Even so, inside Radiants, Stormlight is described as storming, raging, etc. He feels it as a well. (Association: Calm, placid)

A well isn't necessarily calm... There's also wells where water rages out with a speed that can tackle a grown man.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

17 minutes ago, yulerule said:

Regarding Renarin, did anybody notice that the way his inner Stormlight was described differently?

This is moments after Honor's Perpendicularity, but I think all other Radiants breathed in Stormlight from the gems scattered all over.

Kind of reminds me of Saidin vs Saidar...

[Youngy he/him]

1 hour ago, gbazz4 said:

 

I believe Hoid does an awakening in the epilogue. He whispers words to a doll and sets it down and the doll starts walking. It was a way for him to coax a little girl out of her hiding place. So if Hoid can do an awakening (I presume through stormlight since he has been on the planet for a while) then it would seem likely to me that it is possible for Vasher/Zahel to figure out how to do an awakening using stormlight. 

Azure knows how to as well. When the fused were chasing them down on the ship, she starts arranging things in human-like shapes.

[What's a Seawolf?]

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

Unless their version of binding uses a different gravity factor because it's From Another Planet! Dun dun dun. 

That's a good point.  I'm going to spitball for a second here:

-Odium was the human god on whatever planet they came from before Roshar.

-Odium grants these humans Voidbringing powers on said planet.  To not get into Cosmere spoilers, I assume Surgebinding is an end-positive magic system or neutral.  If we assume Voidbringing is end-negative, I can envision ways how that would have gone about destroying a planet.

-Humans flee planet and arrive on Roshar, thinking 'Surgebinding' is actually this terrible thing that destroys planets.  They originally agree to stay in their little plot of land that is now Shinovar, but learn that the Parsh have Surgebinding as well.  (I believe, as per the songs, that Parsh had the powers before humans.)

-Not realizing they were tricked by Odium and Voidbinding does not equal Surgebinding, humans go out to keep Parsh from Surgebinding, leading to the initial conflict.  The defeat causes the Parsh to align with Odium (hatred,) not knowing who or what he is.

-Humans win the initial conflict and Surgebinding disappears for a time, though humans forget their aversion to it over many generations.  But Odium is working with the Parsh and launches a new attack.  Queue Honor/Cultivation creating the Heralds and spren copying the Honorblades.

 

I can already see a few glaring holes (like how simple communication between the two warring sides could probably have solved something,) but that comment got me thinking of just how those early events went down.  Odium mimicking Surgebinding to trick humans into starting the initial war sounds feasible.  Would be a reason for similar but slightly different surges as well, and the humans-not being Cosmere aware-would probably just assume Stormlight was what Voidlight looked like on a different planet.

 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

20 minutes ago, Youngy said:

Azure knows how to as well. When the fused were chasing them down on the ship, she starts arranging things in human-like shapes.

surely she's using Breath?

[Aminar]

23 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

That's a good point.  I'm going to spitball for a second here:

-Odium was the human god on whatever planet they came from before Roshar.

-Odium grants these humans Voidbringing powers on said planet.  To not get into Cosmere spoilers, I assume Surgebinding is an end-positive magic system or neutral.  If we assume Voidbringing is end-negative, I can envision ways how that would have gone about destroying a planet.

-Humans flee planet and arrive on Roshar, thinking 'Surgebinding' is actually this terrible thing that destroys planets.  They originally agree to stay in their little plot of land that is now Shinovar, but learn that the Parsh have Surgebinding as well.  (I believe, as per the songs, that Parsh had the powers before humans.)

-Not realizing they were tricked by Odium and Voidbinding does not equal Surgebinding, humans go out to keep Parsh from Surgebinding, leading to the initial conflict.  The defeat causes the Parsh to align with Odium (hatred,) not knowing who or what he is.

-Humans win the initial conflict and Surgebinding disappears for a time, though humans forget their aversion to it over many generations.  But Odium is working with the Parsh and launches a new attack.  Queue Honor/Cultivation creating the Heralds and spren copying the Honorblades.

 

I can already see a few glaring holes (like how simple communication between the two warring sides could probably have solved something,) but that comment got me thinking of just how those early events went down.  Odium mimicking Surgebinding to trick humans into starting the initial war sounds feasible.  Would be a reason for similar but slightly different surges as well, and the humans-not being Cosmere aware-would probably just assume Stormlight was what Voidlight looked like on a different planet.

 

Makes sense. Communication can solve most problems, but it often doesn't. 

And I would assume Odium's original Humans came from Braize. 

[bo.montier]

12 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

surely she's using Breath?

I don't know why we would assume this, just because Vasher can't yet use stormlight, doesn't mean Azure hasn't figured it out. 
I'd call it an open question, rather than coming down on one side or the other. If she's using breath...Well it's a much more finite resource than stormlight.

[digitalbusker he/him]

2 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

I don't know why we would assume this, just because Vasher can't yet use stormlight, doesn't mean Azure hasn't figured it out. 
I'd call it an open question, rather than coming down on one side or the other. If she's using breath...Well it's a much more finite resource than stormlight.

Yeah, but if you're careful you can get it back.

[bo.montier]

1 minute ago, digitalbusker said:

Yeah, but if you're careful you can get it back.

Under the circumstances, I think she wasn't going to get it back, but yeah, for sure. I just looked at the scenario, Fused flying in, battle about to go down...I don't think she would get it back. Which makes me think she's using Stormlight. But who knows?

[Subvisual Haze]

Odium is a "human god" in the sense that Rayse was himself once a human.  Odium is a human god in the same way that Honor and Cultivation are/were also human gods.  Odium by intent avoids being tied down to any location or group, so claiming humanity brought Odium is a little unfair.  Pre-Oathpact Odium went wherever he pleased and left destruction in his wake.

 

[IndigoAjah he/him]

5 hours ago, bo.montier said:

I don't know why we would assume this, just because Vasher can't yet use stormlight, doesn't mean Azure hasn't figured it out. 
I'd call it an open question, rather than coming down on one side or the other. If she's using breath...Well it's a much more finite resource than stormlight.

1) it's reusable when you Awaken, so it's not really more finite 

2) it's stated that Stormlight is rare in Shadesmar, which is where she implicitly plans to use it 

3) we don't see her with any charged gems, and it seems odd that she would deprive the group who do relie on Stormlight of their use if she were keeping some (esp as she has another way to Awaken that wouldn't use their, at that time. Highly precious and life saving resource that they were incredibly careful not to waste)

4) Occam's razor: we KNOW Viv can Awaken with Breath and last time we saw her we know she had access to Breath. Since then she has picked up an Awakened Blade, presumably meaning that access has increased even since we left her in Warbreaker. We don't know that she can use Stormlight and have no indication that she knows how to access it in any way. Her Awakening teacher, Vasher, can't use Stormlight to Awaken and we don't know that anyone knows how to yet.

The assumption would clearly be her doing something we have no evidence for, when we have a simpler explanation.

Edited November 23, 2017 by IndigoAjah

[Yata he/him]

14 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

I don't know why we would assume this, just because Vasher can't yet use stormlight, doesn't mean Azure hasn't figured it out. 
I'd call it an open question, rather than coming down on one side or the other. If she's using breath...Well it's a much more finite resource than stormlight.

First of all because Vasher is probably the best Awakener around and a Scholar in the Investiture. He knows Stormlight for centuries and he stable lives on Roshar from decades.

Azure comed to Roshar only a year before the current events and she was quite soon trapped by the Kholinar's events. She is never depicted with Stormlight on her and she is surrounded from a decent part of the book by people who could sense Stormlight.
I believe it's enough to assume she isn't able to figure how Awaken with Stormlight. We can't be sure...but I can't honestly say that both possibilities are equal likely

[bo.montier]

@IndigoAjah & @Yata

Well, then. Point taken. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by bo.montier

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Certainly it's not impossible that she's Awakening with Stormlight, but logically it's less likely that her doing what we know she can already do

[bo.montier]

1 minute ago, IndigoAjah said:

Certainly it's not impossible that she's Awakening with Stormlight, but logically it's less likely that her doing what we know she can already do

I was primarily thinking about how breaths would be lost over time (I am assuming her extended life-span saps her breaths somehow, but I don't know where I got that assumption since she isn't returned). I forgot she was relatively new to Roshar, which definitely changes things.

[Kurkistan he/him]

1 hour ago, bo.montier said:

I was primarily thinking about how breaths would be lost over time (I am assuming her extended life-span saps her breaths somehow, but I don't know where I got that assumption since she isn't returned). I forgot she was relatively new to Roshar, which definitely changes things.

I don't recall Breaths being lost over time when they're inside people: It's when they're in objects that you have to worry.

EDIT: Nevermind, somehow I just missed your parenthetical entirely. The Fifth Heightening grants agelessness without any mention of Breath-loss, for what it's worth, so I've never assumed a gradual loss of Breath for non-Returned.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Kurkistan

[Blacksmithki]

This whole time I had assumed that the page was the one in chapter (19?) (Starfalls) where the Radient mentions that to speak of what is to come is forbidden...

I had assumed that this was to imply that seeing the future was not forbidden, only to speak of it was.

Turns out it wasn't even referring to a page in my paperback copy of the book after all, so it was all but impossible for me to guess it.

[What's a Seawolf?]

Was just re-reading part 5 and a couple Renarin moments stood out to me.

"The thunderclast's palm crashed down on Renarin, smashing him.  Adolin screamed, but his brother's Shardblade cut up through the palm, then separated hand from wrist.  The thunderclast trumpeted in anger as Renarin climbed from the rubble of the hand.  He seemed to heal more quickly than Kaladin or Sallan did, as if being crushed wasn't even a bother."

Does that remind anyone of Mistborn spoilers 

Spoiler

Gold compounding?

I'm not saying Renarin can do that, I'm saying maybe the combination of Radiant Regrowth and Void Regrowth can do something similar.  Renarin having normal healing capabilities does not explain the above quote, not do we see Lift (another with Radiant Regrowth) heal so quickly.

Further in part 5:

"As he approached the ramp up to the Oathgate, the Fused descended.  Four landed on the ramp before him, then gave him a gesture not unlike a salute, humming to a frantic tune he did not know."

Two points about the bold:

1- Could Renarin be hearing the rhythms due to a spren corrupted by the Unmade?  (Not sure if a similar phrase has been used to ascribe clearly non-Parsh/non-Odium forces hearing the Fused.)

2- Regardless, 'a tune he did not know' implies tunes (i.e. Rythms) he does know.  And just hearing Parsh/Fused hum from across the battlefield over the few battles he's been in does not invoke a sense of being familiar.

 

It's possible I'm reading too much into those quotes, but I think it's very possible they lead credence to Renarin being some kind of combo Void/Surgebinder, and even that 'bridge' between the two sides mentioned in the Diagram.

[The Invested Beard]

My reaction to this whole thing can be easily summed up

[DiamondMind he/him]

50 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

"As he approached the ramp up to the Oathgate, the Fused descended.  Four landed on the ramp before him, then gave him a gesture not unlike a salute, humming to a frantic tune he did not know."

Two points about the bold:

1- Could Renarin be hearing the rhythms due to a spren corrupted by the Unmade?  (Not sure if a similar phrase has been used to ascribe clearly non-Parsh/non-Odium forces hearing the Fused.)

2- Regardless, 'a tune he did not know' implies tunes (i.e. Rythms) he does know.  And just hearing Parsh/Fused hum from across the battlefield over the few battles he's been in does not invoke a sense of being familiar.

I think you're reading way too much into it. We know singers attune to Rythms, which can come out as audible humming. That's all Renarin is hearing. "A tune he did not know" means exactly that...he's never heard a tune like that. It doesn't mean he hears the Rythms, or it would used different wording.