[OB] OB opinion poll

[Matt Snow]

I gave it a 9/10, which will probably go up or down depending on how I feel during my second read.

I actually really like Kaladin's "failure arc" in the book, I was hit really hard when he failed to say the Fourth Ideal and I actually saw it coming once I realized that this was a form of the Rule of Three. I wish I had more but I was always going to feel that way. As to the love triangle I see everyone talking about how it had an unsatisfying conclusion (which I agree happened, if this is the last of it is true), but as I read the book I got the impression that this is Shallan deluding herself into thinking that she is over Kaladin and completely on board with marrying Adolin. Kaladin decides to stop thinking about Shallan in a romantic way because of her marriage (which I think is very in character), but I think future books might have Shallan causing problems (mostly for herself) because she hasn't realized that she's still attracted to Kaladin (specifically her, bot "Veil").

I also enjoyed the book more because Dalinar is already adultish (It's implied he's a 18ish I think?) in his flashback chapters. In WoK and WoR I was always dreading the flashback chapters because they didn't interest me as much as the current day chapters, not just because they lacked action but because I didn't enjoy Kal and Shallan as children, but I found Dalinar to be a very likeable sociopath character, even if he wasn't a very good person, and a really nice contrast to the Dalinar we know now. I especially liked the reveal that he let the child live instead of killing him.

The final battle was amazing IMO, I was smiling like an idiot the whole time. I'll need to read it again to give a better analysis since I read it at 3 in the morning, but I really liked it.

[Arch]

I'd gave it a strong 7/10

Dalinar's arc was some powerful stuff and as expected he pretty much carried the whole thing. As much as I really liked reading it, this just isn't a book you can finish feeling satisfied. None of our main POV characters, besides dalinar, reach satisfying answers for their respective arcs (Kaladin unwilling to accept that innocents will die and Shallans new found personnality disorder) and so much of the current set-up it relies on the blind faith that it'll all tie together in the next book. And to be honest Idk if Im all that excited to be hearing about more of the same dilema for another +1k pages... 

The way multiple plotlines are handled is just frustrating. It's like he got bored of some them and decided to drop it mid-way. I feel like Sanderson is afraid some of his confrontations seeming melo-dramatic so he just... skips them (the szeth scence that should have happened for example)...

There were some parts that could be seen as fluff, but I actually a lot fond a lot of it to be charming. Sanderson is good at give you a wider perspective of the world and characters and I glad this aspect was as consistent as in the last 2 books.

I'm also really liking the direction Szeth is going with nightblood. I'm excited for his big arc the most .

Overall it's all pretty good, but it need to be less of a transitional book, like the last 2, to blow me away.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Arch

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

5 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

I mentioned this on another post but :

• Szeth appeareance and how easy everyone went with it after he tried the whole previous book to kill Dalinar,
• Moash's arc mirroring Kaladin's and his character/ chapters in general,
• the whole part 5 as a single battle scene and the many POVs (I usually don't have a problem with changing POVs so quickly and it gets me on the edge on other books, but for some reason.. here it didn't work that much),
• Syl and Pattern mostly being absent from the dialogue in parts 3-4 (or at least that s how it felt at that point),
• Shallan's mental problems not getting a proper closure (IMO). 

Ok, so I really do have to get back to real life, but I did want to mention why some these actually didn't bother me, and why instead I thought they were great.

Szeth's appearance and how easily he was brought into the fold:

When he first appears, the human side looks like an unwinable position. Sadeas troops are human voidbringer Thrill puppets. The thunderclasts are tearing apart the city, the Singer armada is waiting as the ultimate reserve force and the fused are everywhere. You don't say no to help when your back is against the wall. Also, I think that a simple explanation of Szeth explaining the nature of his 3rd ideal to Dalinar, and the further explanation that he was the assassin in white because of his oathstone would be all the explanation that Dalinar would need before Szeth is promoted to Captain of his personal guard. Szeth with Nightblood fighting the ultimate evil force, I felt so happy for Nightblood.

Moash's arc mirroring Kaladin's:

This, I thought, was masterful. It's the small variations that cause the major shifts. Each moment where it looked like Moash was back on the road to bridge four and redemption, he turned away. He is walking apathy, he regrets all of his choices yet he keeps making bad choices initially because he is unable to let go of his hatred, and finally because he wants to blow it all up. Hatred leads to apathy, apathy leads to Nihilism and Nihilism leads to the Dark Side. Rad.

All of part 5 being a huge battle sequence:

This is the first chance for the Desolation to have any bite, you have a fractured coalition of the humans with a rag tag dispersed group of fledgling Knights Radiants. It's believable that they are about to swept away, but more importantly, it's believable how they stood and turned the tide of the battle. I think that the constant shifts of POV were incredibly well done, in a battle of this magnitude, taking place across 2 realms no less, it's amazing how clear, vivid and chronologically this is presented. And Jasnah, HOLY CRAP, how could Odium win when Jasnah is on the other side. Dispatching 3 Fused while she waits her fingernail polish to dry (an exaggeration, but pretty close to the spirit of the scene), how freaking awesome was that? Amaram finally getting his gemheart broken, but the big reveal that he had given into Odium's big lie, that he can take the pain and the responsibility away for actions that you should rightly be ashamed of. Brilliant. Instead of Yelig'nar, someone should have given Amaram a hug and a crystal growing kit. He probably could have been saved if Kaladin had gotten to him earlier.

Syl and Pattern mostly being absent from the dialogue in parts 4 and 5:

In Part 4, they are traveling through Shadesmar, there is some dialog, but it is subdued because the readers should be experiencing it from a human perspective like Kaladin, SHallan and Adolin. It's a matter of world building, where too much exposition might have decreased the mysterious nature of the realm (in my opinion at least). Holy crap, the art for spren is so amazing, and how only certain parts of the spren manifest in the physical realm is beyond awesome. I love the drawings of the Mandras (sp?) and how their arrow like heads manifest in the physical realm.

Part 5 is a long battle, not a great time to chat with your spren.

Shallan's mental problems not being resolved:

This seems like an important step for Shallan, I think the Girl Who Stood Up took her a long ways to accepting who she is, I think that how Adolin sees her true self (and loves her true self) takes her further towards accepting who she is, but there is still a piece missing from her understanding (maybe it's even the Dalinar epiphany about how the next step is the most important), but I think this is by design that she ended in this quasi-progressed state. Sets the stage for her getting her shardplate in book four, pretty rad in my opinion.

 

I thought you summed up a lot of the points that people had problems with, these are just my two cents, but it's also a given that this is my favorite book of all times and I am completely blown away this book. I surpassed my expectations (which were ridiculously high after the TOR preview chapter reads) and I can't wait to look through for more details on my second time through.

[IntentAwesome]

On 11/19/2017 at 9:29 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

It was a very enjoyable book, but probably the weakest out of the Stormlight Archive so far to me.  Despite being parts of a larger series, both Way of Kings and Words of Radiance felt very self-contained with satisfying conclusions.  Oathbringer though felt much more like a "middle book", setting up a lot more plot elements and character arcs than it paid off.

Kaladin felt purposely sidelined in the book, which makes sense if you want to maintain some sort of parity between the 3 Main Protagonists as Kaladin had already stolen the spotlight in the first 2 books.  The only problem being that the story suffers without Kaladin and Bridge 4. 

Kaladin is the most human character, he interacts with normal people and struggles with depression and feelings of inadequacy like all too many people do in their day to lives.  In contrast Dalinar is a prince who spends the huge majority of his time interacting with monarchs and Gods and Shallan for some reason has regressed into a Hollywood portrayal of Multiple Personality Disorder and debating which male character to pine over.  I love Kaladin, and love Bridge 4, but both feel purposely shoved to the side in this book.  Do Kaladin and Bridge 4 spend maybe a quarter of the book in the same location as each other?  Instead Kaladin gets sent off on an interesting solo mission in the first section (which unfortunately didn't have much of a payoff beyond shoveling even more misery and tragedy onto Kaladin), and then gets relegated to a supporting role in Shallan's weird side mission.  Even with Syl we get a little bit of her backstory, and she's a very kind and supporting person to Kaladin...but there's no growth.   Kaladin+Syl just didn't have an arc in this book.  There was a conflict, but no resolution yet.  It felt very "middle book" in that regard.

The book also felt a little too bogged down by side POV characters at various points.  I have great hopes that Brandon can keep all these characters juggled, but I've seen a lot of other major fantasy series really struggle to maintain narrative thrust when so many characters require regular updates.  I think I read that the original plan for the Interludes was to limit POV expansion, but now we see a lot of previous Interlude POVs escaping containment and just becoming normal POVs.

This. 

I understand that Kaladin needed to step back, but not only did he take a step back, he really just became a supporting character, which was disappointing as has always been such a strong character and able to carry off some really incredible plot lines. I feel his role can be summed up as chauffeur extradorinaire and brooding male hunk.

And where WoK and WoR really shined for me was character development, conflict between characters, and character relationships. In Way of Kings, all three mains get strong storylines with growth and development. Shallan goes from wide-eyed and intimidated by Jasnah to being able to question her mentor and somewhat hold her own. Dalinar goes from questioning his sanity and his place in the world to being confident in his values and decisions. Kaladin goes from broken slave to capable leader. And you get so many interesting character conflicts that build relationships. Adolin and Dalinar, Shallan questioning Jasnah’s actions, Kaladin working so hard to build a relationship with Bridge Four. These all bring so many powerful and poignant moments.

I feel like many opportunities for similar moments were skipped in OB, because they are all so focused on the Big Bad. We don’t get the conflict with Shallan and Kaladin over her brother. Dalinar’s reaction to adolin’s murder is barely a blip on the radar. We don’t see Kaladin’s reaction to Amaram as highprince or to Lopen’s two arms. Or to Szeth as Dalinar’s body guard: excuse me, didn’t I stop you from killing him a few weeks back? Kaladin doesn’t have any interaction with Teft over his addiction or with Rlain about what he is feeling (which would have been a meaningful way to explore Kaladin’s main struggle in OB). Or Dalinar to Szeth? You killed my brother a few years back, but it’s cool. And despite all the focus on the triangle, there just wasn’t enough relationship building for either Shalladin or Shadolin, so I’m just not sold on either of those.

The scene with Kaladin’s parents was beautiful, but then it was just dropped: glad you are alive, don’t die in the voidbringer invasion, bye! I would have loved to have seen Kaladin and Lirin coming to a new understanding about each other, especially since that was such a huge focus of WoK for Kaladin. Fingers crossed that I’ll still get to see this.

Anyway, I could go on and on with this list. I just wish, in 1200 pages, we had taken some time to stop and smell the roses instead of rushing through.

Ok, attempting to get off my soapbox. I gave a 7/10. It’s a great book (yes, there were plenty of things that I liked, promise!) but it just doesn’t have the emotional payoff that WoK and WoR did for me. 

[mariapapadia]

17 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Szeth's appearance and how easily he was brought into the fold:

When he first appears, the human side looks like an unwinable position. Sadeas troops are human voidbringer Thrill puppets. The thunderclasts are tearing apart the city, the Singer armada is waiting as the ultimate reserve force and the fused are everywhere. You don't say no to help when your back is against the wall. Also, I think that a simple explanation of Szeth explaining the nature of his 3rd ideal to Dalinar, and the further explanation that he was the assassin in white because of his oathstone would be all the explanation that Dalinar would need before Szeth is promoted to Captain of his personal guard. Szeth with Nightblood fighting the ultimate evil force, I felt so happy for Nightblood.

I agree that in the "heat of the moment" with giant stone monsters, a maniac god and an army of posessed soldiers, you don't question who helps you and you take what you can get. But it read incredibly wierd for me and I could've go with that for the battle part if we would've had at least an explanation on page after. Instead, Szeth just becomes Dalinar's new bodyguard and overprotective Kaladin doesn't even question it. .... WHAT?!?! It just makes my mind hurt. I was also really anticipating their talk so I feel like I was deprived of that. 

17 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Moash's arc mirroring Kaladin's:

This, I thought, was masterful. It's the small variations that cause the major shifts. Each moment where it looked like Moash was back on the road to bridge four and redemption, he turned away. He is walking apathy, he regrets all of his choices yet he keeps making bad choices initially because he is unable to let go of his hatred, and finally because he wants to blow it all up. Hatred leads to apathy, apathy leads to Nihilism and Nihilism leads to the Dark Side. Rad.

OHHHH... OHHHH! Don't get me started on Moash. The more time it passes, the more I hate his character with a passion that comes from Odium. I didn't even hate Joffrey that much. The last character I remember hating so much was Umbridge. So given that, Moash's chapters and his whole arc was a total waste for me, when we could've had his space to tie up some other plots in a more satisfying way. 

17 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

All of part 5 being a huge battle sequence:

This is the first chance for the Desolation to have any bite, you have a fractured coalition of the humans with a rag tag dispersed group of fledgling Knights Radiants. It's believable that they are about to swept away, but more importantly, it's believable how they stood and turned the tide of the battle. I think that the constant shifts of POV were incredibly well done, in a battle of this magnitude, taking place across 2 realms no less, it's amazing how clear, vivid and chronologically this is presented. And Jasnah, HOLY CRAP, how could Odium win when Jasnah is on the other side. Dispatching 3 Fused while she waits her fingernail polish to dry (an exaggeration, but pretty close to the spirit of the scene), how freaking awesome was that? Amaram finally getting his gemheart broken, but the big reveal that he had given into Odium's big lie, that he can take the pain and the responsibility away for actions that you should rightly be ashamed of. Brilliant. Instead of Yelig'nar, someone should have given Amaram a hug and a crystal growing kit. He probably could have been saved if Kaladin had gotten to him earlier.

I understand why it was done that way and I totally think the fast sequence of multiple POVs is the way to go in a situation like this, but this time it just didn't work for me. This was the first Sanderson finale, that didn't left me emotionaly drained. It started like that, but after the "you can't have my pain scene", it went down on normal levels for me and I didn't feel like anyone was in any kind of danger anymore and some parts were just tiering to get through even though they were half a page long. There were some great parts in there, but I feel like they lost some of their epicness in everything that was happening. 

17 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Syl and Pattern mostly being absent from the dialogue in parts 4 and 5:

In Part 4, they are traveling through Shadesmar, there is some dialog, but it is subdued because the readers should be experiencing it from a human perspective like Kaladin, SHallan and Adolin. It's a matter of world building, where too much exposition might have decreased the mysterious nature of the realm (in my opinion at least). Holy crap, the art for spren is so amazing, and how only certain parts of the spren manifest in the physical realm is beyond awesome. I love the drawings of the Mandras (sp?) and how their arrow like heads manifest in the physical realm.

Part 5 is a long battle, not a great time to chat with your spren.

Actually my problem was with them having little to no dialogue in parts 3 and 4. I wasn't interested to see Shadesmar through their perspective necesarilly, but see more of that juicy banter. Some dialogue between Syl and Pattern. Having all three together + Syl+ Pattern, I expected to be explosive. I can barely remember any intervention of Syl in part 3. The bits we had of Syl in Shadesmar were some of my favourites. 

17 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Shallan's mental problems not being resolved:

This seems like an important step for Shallan, I think the Girl Who Stood Up took her a long ways to accepting who she is, I think that how Adolin sees her true self (and loves her true self) takes her further towards accepting who she is, but there is still a piece missing from her understanding (maybe it's even the Dalinar epiphany about how the next step is the most important), but I think this is by design that she ended in this quasi-progressed state. Sets the stage for her getting her shardplate in book four, pretty rad in my opinion.

 

 

The Girl who stood up was one of my favourite chapters in the book and it was promising so much for Shallan's development and acceptance, but then the ending with Adolin blew it. I've already written essays on the Kaladin-Adolin-Shallan disscusion thread, so I won't go to much into it here, but for me Shallan choosing Adolin for the reasons you mentioned,  read as her looking for an ancor, validation or healing through a romantic relationship, instead of finding herself on her own. So needless to say, that the conclusion of that was another drawback for me. 

 

Anyway, I can see where you are coming from and respect that, in this case is mostly a matter of preference or taste. The more I think about it, the more I realise I loved some scenes a lot, but that doesn't translate to the book as a whole. It's like when you love some clothing items individually, but when you try to put them together in an outfit they might not work that great for everyone 

Edited November 21, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Sherkaner Underhill]

8/10. The book had many good standalone moments, but it feels disjointed overall. For some reason I've lost most of my anticipation for the future books. I don't really care what's going to happen with characters and the world anymore, which surprises me. It could have benefited more from the editing process, I suspect. There is a truly great book on the level beyong that of tWoK (my favourite Sanderson book) hidden somewhere in the OB, which saddens me even more.

On the part by part basis I'd rate

Part 1: 8. Solid beginning.

Part 2: 9. I liked Bridge 4 POVs a lot.

Part 3: 8. Great ending with Elhokar and Kaladin, but the rest... Shallan became repetitive, Hoid and Vivenna were out of place. Adolin didn't do anything major and didn't get any character development.

Part 4: 6. The worst part for me. Shadesmar killed a lot of misteries surrounding spren, was disconnected from the main story, wasn't particularly interesting, and, basically, felt as a fanfiction or distinct novella.

Part 5: 7. Good Dalinar development, some nice scenes with unexpected POVs. The timing of arrivial from the Shadesmar trip was forced too much. Many events were rushed, no closure for all characters except Dalinar. I became REALLY self-aware that I'm reading a book, because some characters MUST get to some place and do some things.

[PandACT]

8/10: Just enough progress to avoid stagnation, imo... but still more than enough of everything that Sanderson books do best to make it enjoyable. I think my disappointment comes mostly from my ridiculous expectations, though there are, as shown in this thread, legitimate complaints. I think one point of agreement is that Brandon knows what he is doing, and knows how to make fans happy, so I think he's capable of uniting us  on a 10 for future books. Don't stop the hype!

[Calthrop]

Halfway through I would have sworn the book was the best the Cosmere had to offer.  Even at the tail end of Thaylen City I would have placed the book head and shoulders above books 1 and 2.  Of course there are a number of things that make the book less than perfect, but for me I think the biggest issue is the post-avalanche wrap-up, which not only was disappointing from a narrative perspective but leaves me disheartened about the series.

While I loved some of those late sections (Lopen!), the closing chapters simply felt rushed/incomplete, and not only regarding the whole wedding thing (which I think we really should have seen and I know I'm not alone on that one).  A few things that immediately come to mind:

We never see Dalinar speak to his sons about Rathalas at all, despite him writing a book about his past. 

We never get to see the conversations with Jasnah about taking the Alethi throne, despite the innumerable pages devoted to Alethi politics throughout books 1-3. 

We never see any conversation regarding Bridge 4 abandoning a city full of people with Odium on the doorstep due to a crisis of uncertainty, despite all the discourse in the series on Windrunners protecting people. 

We never see anyone even bother to debrief Szeth after Thaylen City, despite his role in the events of the first two books. 

Given the time frame covered post-Thaylen City, all of these things would have occurred by the end of the book and so it's highly unlikely these scenes will ever be shown to us, which is just devastating.  I can forgive a lot in the name of pacing, but its almost insulting to not show us these key scenes for all of these central characters we've grown to care about over the course of the series.

I think even those who rated the book a 10 can admit that it isn't so tight that we couldn't have had at least some of these crucial character scenes shown to us.

PS:  Earlier in the book, the omission of any reunion dialogues with Jasnah is a pretty extreme oversight as well (Navani, for instance, would really have benefited from this from a character development standpoint given her emotions in WoR, particularly given her nonexistent, or at least non-written, reaction to Elhokar's loss).

 

[Subvisual Haze]

5 minutes ago, Calthrop said:

We never see any conversation regarding Bridge 4 abandoning a city full of people with Odium on the doorstep due to a crisis of uncertainty, despite all the discourse in the series on Windrunners protecting people. 

You know, I'm going to blame this on too much stuff happening too fast from too many POVs, but my mind had almost completely forgotten about this.

The Order focused on Protecting the vulnerable literally abandoned a desperate, natural disaster ravaged city with the invading armies of Satan nearly at the front gates.  Because of an unverified rumor regarding the inhabitants of an area of land 10,000 years prior.

Bridge 4 are the worst protectors ever.  I really hope this doesn't just get swept under the rug, and Kaladin gives them hell for being complete failures at protecting those who needed them.

In fact, this just makes me realize that despite all the interesting Bridge 4 POV chapters we got...have the other members of Bridge 4 actually displayed much independent initiative towards protecting people?  Kaladin of course is totally driven by his need to protect others, but the other members of bridge 4?  They mostly just seem to do their jobs as Kaladin directs them.  They make good bodyguards, but I'm not really getting why they're advancing beyond squire level and attracting spren of their own.

[mariapapadia]

7 hours ago, Calthrop said:

Halfway through I would have sworn the book was the best the Cosmere had to offer.  Even at the tail end of Thaylen City I would have placed the book head and shoulders above books 1 and 2.  Of course there are a number of things that make the book less than perfect, but for me I think the biggest issue is the post-avalanche wrap-up, which not only was disappointing from a narrative perspective but leaves me disheartened about the series.

While I loved some of those late sections (Lopen!), the closing chapters simply felt rushed/incomplete, and not only regarding the whole wedding thing (which I think we really should have seen and I know I'm not alone on that one).  A few things that immediately come to mind:

We never see Dalinar speak to his sons about Rathalas at all, despite him writing a book about his past. 

We never get to see the conversations with Jasnah about taking the Alethi throne, despite the innumerable pages devoted to Alethi politics throughout books 1-3. 

We never see any conversation regarding Bridge 4 abandoning a city full of people with Odium on the doorstep due to a crisis of uncertainty, despite all the discourse in the series on Windrunners protecting people. 

We never see anyone even bother to debrief Szeth after Thaylen City, despite his role in the events of the first two books. 

Given the time frame covered post-Thaylen City, all of these things would have occurred by the end of the book and so it's highly unlikely these scenes will ever be shown to us, which is just devastating.  I can forgive a lot in the name of pacing, but its almost insulting to not show us these key scenes for all of these central characters we've grown to care about over the course of the series.

I think even those who rated the book a 10 can admit that it isn't so tight that we couldn't have had at least some of these crucial character scenes shown to us.

PS:  Earlier in the book, the omission of any reunion dialogues with Jasnah is a pretty extreme oversight as well (Navani, for instance, would really have benefited from this from a character development standpoint given her emotions in WoR, particularly given her nonexistent, or at least non-written, reaction to Elhokar's loss).

 

I knew there were some other things in the back of my mind, but i couldn't pin point them. But you raise some very good points, especially about Dalinar's talk with his sons. I guess this isn't a thing to resolve in just a few pages and would be an ongoing challenve/conflict Dalinar has to deal with in the next book, but i would ve at least wanted to be adressed here. 

I feel like we got a lot of cool, flashy stuff in this book which is amazing, but one quality about the SA ,so far, has been the how the less epic moments were adressed and tied up everytime and how those confrontations even though they weren't supposed to become big, stand as great. We've had 2 fake deaths in the last book and we didn t got to see the characters immedoate reaction/thoughts for any of them. 

 

@Subvisual Haze huh! I never even realised that but you are totally right. I feel thought, Teft came to his third ideal and then everyone got back to Thaylen city, so you have to give them some credit for that. But yeah.. It s like windrunners are popping out like mushrooms after a storm. We better get to see some of those honorable men do some honorable things. 

I am in a moment when i m starting to nitpick at things, but i do it because i became more self aware as a reader after spending time on this forum.  But ultimately Brandon wrote a good, complex book, i can only wish to be as good in my field of work as he is in his. It's ok to have a critical view even when it comes to things you like. And of course so much depends on individual expectations and everyone s reading experienve is different.

Edited November 22, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Steeldancer]

Reviving this thread to make sure everyone gets the chance to vote 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

On 11/21/2017 at 9:12 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

The Order focused on Protecting the vulnerable literally abandoned a desperate, natural disaster ravaged city with the invading armies of Satan nearly at the front gates.  Because of an unverified rumor regarding the inhabitants of an area of land 10,000 years prior.

Bridge 4 are the worst protectors ever.  I really hope this doesn't just get swept under the rug, and Kaladin gives them hell for being complete failures at protecting those who needed them.

So when Kaladin finally finds Skar and Drehy, they have ash on their foreheads to obscure their bridge 4 tattoos (meaning they snuck out of Kholinar), but they have probably sworn their second ideal as Windrunners, they show Kaladin that they have Elokhar's son and say that they promised to protect those who couldn't protect themselves.

What is ignoble about this? How could two squires without their KR hope to fight off 40,000 Singers, a legion of Fused and Aesudan's strange Yelig-nared amry with no access to surges? Dalinar admits that Kholinar is lost from his position of strength in Urithuru, what would have been gained if Skar and Drehy nobly died in Kholinar mounting a useless resistance?

I personally was very happy with how this storyline wrapped up and was glad that Scar and Drehy weren't just grist for the mill of Kill off characters to increase tension line of writing that is popular in morally grey fiction. I was glad that they were alive, and very glad that they achieved the limited but important objective of saving Elokhar's son. Freaking awesome if you ask me.

[Kered]

Gave it a 9/10. The only reason it's not a 10 for me personally is the Shallan's arc past Part 2. I know the debate rages between liking and not liking Shallan as a character, and I'm somewhere in the middle. Shallan was a big part of this book, and I just found myself irritated whenever I read her POV. Her inner monologue was tedious for the most part(conversation with Wit not included), and the splitting of her personalities and what it did for her story was kinda obnoxious. I understand the trauma she's been through, I just don't like how it's being handled. That's literally my only complaint, though. 

This book is the darkest book so far in the series, and is up there as on of the darkest book in the cosmere(next to Shadows for Silence) and I love it. Dalinar's storyline was perfect. How he handled the burdens on his shoulders and is interactions with Odium. His fight against Odium and summoning Honor's perpendicularity is one of my favorite climaxes thus far. 

The Bridge Four POV's were also excellent, turning the average slave/solider into a being with god like powers. Bradon wrote it beautifully. Kaladin's turmoil of fighting the parshmen was also skillfully done. It gave us pity and understanding of the "enemy", something not often done in fantasy. 

The Shadesmar arc was epic. Simply epic. 

There's more, but the biggest thing for me that made this book awesome(not including character development and plot twists) was the sheer amount of information we got and finally seeing things we've been waiting for. 

Odium on screen and being every bit the villain we hoped for. 

The Unmade and their dealings. 

More from the Heralds. 

Awesome Interludes and epigraphs. 

The secret that broke the KR. 

Nightwatcher and Cultivation on screen. 

Great Hoid scenes(arguably his best thus far).

Awesome Szeth and Nightblood scenes. 

Vivenna. 

 

Favorites scenes. 

Dalinar trumping Odium. 

First Odium appearance and the second glimpse of seeing a Shards true power. 

Lopen swearing the 2nd Ideal. I was literally in tears in my patrol car. 

Kaladin watching the Wall Guard and his parsh friends fight and kill each other. Totally gutted me. 

 

[Diomedes]

This was my least favorite SA book.

I think it was due to my feeling that the characters were swept away by the plot rather then them making decisions and shaping their future. In one earlier Kaladin chapter one parshman says: 

Quote

My "freedom" is that of a leaf. Dropped from the tree I just blow on the wind and pretend I`m in charge of my destiny. OB p. 117. 

This kind of apllies to all characters. They are compulsed by external factors into doing, what they are doing. Shallan gives in her psychological problems. Kaladin is baffled and just lets King Elokhar be killed. Venli just gets bullied around by Odium. Dalinar is haunted by his past, though he has arguably some agency. Teft gives in his addiction. This is all somewhat subverted in book 5 but not completly. The best arc was Szeth´s, he at least made some good decisions.  

Ah, and people just dont talk to each other about their problems. They are just swallowing it up and brooding over it. This makes up severe lack of good dialog.

So this books will probably make a lot more sense after the sequels have been published. It seems to set up many good things in the future. 

  It`s also still a SA book, it has capital A Awsome worldbuilding and we get to see the answers to so many questions. The Dalinar flashbacks were also insanly well crafted.

I gave it an 8/10

[Aleph-Naught]

8/10 for many of the same reasons as everyone else.

I was genuinely surprised at the exposition dump about the oathpact so, relatively, early in the book.

It seemed like there was going to be more to some characters but then they're (as far as I know) seemingly abandoned. Rlain's absence after his chapter just felt.. off.. to me, but something that really drove me nuts was Aesudan's transformation with Yelig-Nar that is completely waved away later when Odium gives Yelig-Nar to Amaram. I understand that some of these things (another example given was Shallan/Kaladin's trip) have to be put into the background to, perhaps, keep things focused and prevent the series from ballooning into more than 10 volumes - or that we'll get these events in a short story/novella ala "Edgedancer" - but it was super jarring to me.

[kaellok]

On 11/20/2017 at 11:08 AM, Fifth of Daybreak said:

Just out of curiosity, those of you who are saying it felt rushed, too many POV, small characters, etc. Have you guys read WoT? I'm wondering if that might be part of the reason for our differences in opinion. For me, reading this was seeing those flaws you've described improved greatly from where I saw them in WoT. I felt a lot of the same tension in part 5 that I felt throughout A Memory of Light, which really blew me away since this is only book three and that took thirteen books to set up.

I read WoT, and nearly all of the books more than twice (for awhile my summer ritual was to re-read the series).  However, THE "Cardinal Sin of WoT" that should be learned from is to always be wary of unnecessary bloat: just because it would be neat to show a scene from this characters eyes, or because it's easier to show this plot point using that character instead, doesn't mean it's a storming good idea to do so.  Yes, OB is a thousand times better about this than, say, Winter's Heart, but it is actually worse than The Great Hunt was.  

The Interludes make for amazing built-in places to have those world-building scenes that could not be fit in easily to other places.  I love them for that.  I dread seeing the continued evolution of an increasing number of viewpoints for scenes that are truly unnecessary.  None of the Bridge 4 viewpoints were actually critical for us, as readers, to see; the events happening in them may have been important, but us actually seeing those events as they happened?  Pure bloat--even though I loved seeing Teft say the Words, and it brought actual tears to my eyes, and I loved that moment, it was completely unnecessary to be seen, and its inclusion has caused some "This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules were they doing? moments, ala, why did Bridge 4 abandon Thaylenar just before it got invaded?"  In a 1200+ page tome that was missing key scenes that I would have expected to see due to the anticipated emotional payoff (like Jasnah returning--holy letdown Batman), the choice to include scenes that have not been implicitly promised to the reader concerns me.

At the time I read it, tWoK was my favorite, and I think post-OB it still holds up as the strongest.  The prose in each novel Sanderson publishes continues to improve over the previous novel, which is truly astounding, and there are a ton of points that I love in OB.  However, these moments feel isolated, like a paragraph in this chapter, or a line in that one.  WoR still has my favorite entire scenes, even if Kaladin's character arc is identical to the one in tWoK.  The resolution to some major plot-threads in OB feel inadequate or incomplete, and storylines that I was hoping (but not expecting) to see more on were entirely ignored (eg, I am 90% sure at this point that we will never know what happened for Shallan to Bond Pattern at such an early age).  

In general, my expectations from the Stormlight Archive as a series overall continues to slowly ratchet down from 10/10, to 8/10.  OB gets a 7.5/10.  It had great moments, and was a thoroughly enjoyable book that added a lot to the series and to the Cosmere as a whole.  However, it missed what should have been some easy wins by not even trying for them, and what should have been major and shocking revelations ended up feeling incomplete and lacking in emotional resonance.

[Hyarmenatan]

My rank so far is

WoK : 10

WoR: 8.5

OB: 8

What I felt on OB was that it is not such a masterpiece the previous parts were (especially when compared to WoK) due to the bigger focus on the Magic, Powers, and too little mistery. In 1st and 2nd book : we don't know who the Voidbringers are, don't know the Radiants' powers, and are afraid. Don't know what will come with the Everstorm. There is a feeling of looming disaster all the time, not to mention the brilliant character development we see for Kaladin and Dalinar's politics struggles.

In OB, almost everything is spoken bluntly for us to not miss. I felt no mistery, no fear. Magic, apart from the Dalinar's arc which was AMAZING, is the main thing that drives the book. Frankly, there were only a seldom moments when I gave a bigger interest in what is going on (Dalinar almost becoming Odium's champion, Kal punching Roshone in da face, Elhokars death and this storming Moash). Shallan's chapters were a waste of time, and it took sooo long until she came to her mind in the final chapters prior to the marriage. Didn't like the Shadesmar trip also. 

OB is dangerously close to other, common fantasy books. One of the worse things Brandon has written. Of course, 8/10 is a very good note and many famous authors would not even approach that (Trudi Canavan, I'm looking at you), but when compared to the masterpieces he had been producting on a regular basis for our amusement, it won't hold. Just imagine taking away all the epic moments focusing on Realmatics like Dalinar combining Realms into one, and what will you get, when it comes to the characters and their interactions? I guess not much.

Maybe it will get better for me once I'm done with a reread, but as for now it's somewhere above Shadows of Self, and below Elantris and Warbreaker. 

 

 

[the_archduke]

I read the entire book in just under 24 hours.  I gave up most of a night's sleep and most of a day's work because I couldn't put it down.  10/10.  I may be a little biased though, because I rate Brandon as the greatest living author.  I would buy and read his grocery list were it available.

I disagree with everyone who disliked Shallan and Adolin's courtship.  Those two are adorable.  They fit each other, and are clearly in love.  It is nice to see that amid the world ending.

Dalinar's backstory was painful at times.  Young Blackthorn was freaking scary.  "You can't have my pain" was EPIC.

Part five was chaotic, but I felt that it fit.  It was a cataclysmic battle.  Chaos should be expected in that situation.

I teared up when Kaladin found his family alive.

I jumped out of my seat when Odium appeared to Dalinar.

I pumped my fist when Shallan only waived to Kaladin after the battle.  Ding dong, Shalladin is dead.

 

[Violetsoda]

On 11/22/2017 at 4:32 AM, mariapapadia said:

But ultimately Brandon wrote a good, complex book, i can only wish to be as good in my field of work as he is in his. It's ok to have a critical view even when it comes to things you like. And of course so much depends on individual expectations and everyone s reading experienve is different.

This, so much. The inability to think critically or examine works we love or really like makes blind raving fanboys/girls. The ability to critically think, examine and even disagree politely is what makes the Sanderson community so special.

[maxal]

I'd give the book a 6/7 out of 10. If it were the first book of a series or if the previous book had ended differently, I might have rate it a 7/8, but I definitely consider dropping every single plot line from WoR was a narrative issue. It was for me as I spent the entire book wondering why I was reading about Shallan splitting personalities, why Kaladin's only conflict was about those groups of people he wants to simultaneously protect and why Dalinar's chapters felt like each one was identical to the previous one. 

WoR ended up with many open story arcs which got reader to theorize, speculate about them for four years.

- What will happen to Adolin now he killed a Highprince? How will Dalinar react? How will the other characters react? What will Ialai plan for a revenge? The answer to those years of speculation has been utterly disappointing. Nothing happens to Adolin, Dalinar doesn't care and Ialai vanishes into thin air.

- What will happen in between Kaladin/Shallan now they "connected" during the Chasm? What about Kaladin killing Helaran? How will Shallan process this new information? Again, the answer to years of speculation was underwhelming. Kaladin and Shallan hardly ever talk. Shallan doesn't care Kaladin killed Helaran and they never broach the subject.

- What about the Everstorm, it look so devastating? The answer is, well, turns out he wasn't as bad as we all thought it would be.

- What is happening in Kholinar? And will our crew free it? What about the rebellion? The answer is: what rebellion? The city was just taken over by an Unmade whom makes people succumb to temptations and the palace attack was a very good scene, the idea of a darkeyes rebellion really wasn't explored. Like not at all.

- How will the other Highprinces react to Dalinar being a Radiant? The answer is they don't react. Nobody contest Dalinar's authority. Period. 

In the end, I felt the book dropped on too many story arcs presented within the past books, instead offering new ones, but I kept going back to the original story arcs. I understand Brandon wanted to move the focus from internal Alethi politic to larger world politic, but he did it way too fast without taking the time to tie in the other arc. He just took it away, declared it was done and moved onto something else. 

Another critic I have for the book is how the narrative felt rushed: the characters were shoved from one place to the next for "plot purposes", key scenes were literally skipped, character development was missed in some parts and because the plot moved so fast, I felt it took away from it. For instance, Dalinar uniting the world was made of several long, very similar chapters I found myself not too interested in reading. The most interesting elements, Iri being mad for Evi's Plate, were never touched again. Character inter-action was literally skipped and the Radiants barely spoke one to another. More importantly, nobody had the discussion on the return of the Radiants, on the fact all the Kholins (except Adolin) were chosen. It seems to me this was such an important topic, it should have been talked about. Radiants have been feared and hated for hundred of years, they come back and that's it? Everyone is fine with it? Come on..... I don't buy it.

Instead, the book developed Bridge 4. I liked those chapters, I would not mind them if I didn't feel the rest of the story was missing many, many, many scenes. Also, Moash's arc was pointless. The book could have done without Moash. I didn't get the point of Moash: it feels like something the book didn't need.

Also, I missed Adolin for about 800 pages: this was way too long before giving him a role. He's a character we've been steadily reading since WoK. I don't care about the "plan", because when I read a character on a regular basis, I expect this character to appear on a regular basis into the next book. I don't expect him to vanish, I don't expect every single character development to be literally skipped just because. I don't even know why it was skipped. Instead, we had hundred and hundred of pages of Shallan and her personality problems which was, IMHO, too many pages. And yet, despite those many pages, it didn't feel resolved nor finished explaining.

Thus, to me, while there were several great scenes and moments, the book failed to deliver on the expectations I had. It failed to broach the subjects I thought it would broach. I can't fault him for not moving the narrative ahead, but I feel it was perhaps too fast as too many scenes were missed and yet, the book dragged during some parts such as Shadesmar and Veil's orphans. Adolin's character was a hit and a miss for me. While I loved Maya, I feel as if his character took a step towards blandness. He is perfect. He always says the right thing, he always knows what to do, he is never affected by things happening around him (he has a few moments, but they don't really pan out into much more), he always succeeds at everything he does, he get away with murder because no one cared and so on. Even when he does get hurt, it is only for a few minutes as Renarin is always there to heal him. Adolin doesn't know failure and all of this, despite the superb Maya arc makes the character less interesting then he was in WoR when we all thought he would take a turn for the bad.

The book didn't deliver on too many expectations and skipped on too many key scenes. Worst, it didn't deliver on the expectations readers create while reading the book! The copy-cat murders, Adolin investigation his own murder, Amaram being name both investigator and Highprince, Adolin telling Shallan about Helaran, Shallan picking up something is odd with Adolin, Renarin picking out something is wrong with Adolin, why was all this literally skipped? Was Shallan hunting Re-Shephir and getting drunk that interesting the story could do without those other threads? Was Shallan learning how to spy as Veil really something we needed when so much else was dropped? Did Kaladin need to spend part 1 walking with the Parshendis? And what happened to the Champion? The Champion was terrifying, but we didn't get to see him, it was just a ploy to say Dalinar ought to be him, but he rejects it. What happened to the awful villain no one can beat? How come Thunderclast are so easily defeated by Renarin? Shouldn't they be more terrible?

This being said, on the positive side, I loved the twist of Eshonai being dead: I didn't see this one coming and I really appreciated Venli's story arc. How she goes from the vengeful aggressive authoritative Venli from the previous book, to proto-knight by bonding the spren her sister had started to bond was really sweet. It almost felt as if, by dying, Eshonai allowed her sister to take a different path. I thought this arc was very well done.

I actually liked Szeth's arc..... I liked it mostly because I enjoyed reading how the order which didn't break recruits and trains future knights. I thought it was really interesting to read and Szeth stopped being crazy which was a bonus. I however, like many reader, didn't like how Szeth is just welcomed into Dalinar's household without any questions. This, it does not work at all. This is another example of the narrative going too fast: this should have happened during the next book with more page time, it should have been brought forward, it could have been a really good moment, but no it was just tossed in because, huh, plot!

Dalinar's flashback scenes were amazing and really good, but I dislike how his future character is not getting any retribution for what he has done. Oh he gets drunk, but I can't feel sorry for him. And nobody holds it against him.. come on! Also, I think his reaction to his past is a tad over-done, just like Shallan's... I mean, how is it they are literally broken to the point of being non-functional, but then you have characters like Adolin who surfs through hardships never being bothered by them. This cleavage has really annoyed me, like too much of one thing, not enough of the other.

So yeah, I guess I am not such a good Brandon's fan as I didn't get excited over this book as much as I got excited on WoR. It just skipped on way too many arcs in order to precipitate the plot towards the final confrontation, it was a good confrontation, but maybe I prefer stories when they take their time to evolve, when they explore narrative as opposed to toss the characters in them for a purpose.

[taliefer]

i gave it an 8 very close to going to a 7, but in the end i did plow through the book and mostly enjoyed it. but in comparison id rate way of kings a 10 and radiance a 9. Oathbringer is easily the weakest of the 3 so far to me.

 

shallans whole arc didnt resonate with me, at all. and was just flat out annoying to read at times. multiple personality disorder just doesn't register with me, i guess.

the payoff for Dalinar's arc was awesome personified, but i dont feel his wife subplot warranted it. i actually found myself agreeing with younger Dalinar in his wife was just flat out stupid for sneaking into a city Dalinar was poised to attack. so i had a hard time buying into his pathos.

 

Kaladin was great, as always. Adolin was a much needed breath of fresh air from all of our broken main characters, i really hope he doesnt backslide regarding Sadeas' death. and i hope we get another well adjusted character to help break up the flow of broken character after broken character. that may be why i had a hard time buying into shallan and Dalinars arcs fully. theres only so much depression and angst i can handle before it becomes repetitive and a trudge to read.

the world building continues to be great, if maybe just a *tad* too much on the overall cosmere side. its starting to feel like the cosmere is going to play a bigger role in this series than originally thought. not sure if thats good or bad yet, willing to wait. but my eyebrow is raised for sure.

 

favorite moment was easily Dalinar merging the 3 realms. i never saw that coming in regards to "unite them" but it was so, so awesome.

 

side note, im super optimistic about the Lift character between her role here and i read EdgeDancer. she could be that other character aside from Adolin that i feel this series needs to lighten the POV from our characters.

 

 

 

[Wolven]

I really loved it, so 9/10 for me.  Phenomenal book.  The only reason it's not a 10/10 is because your scale says that means it's the best book ever and I like Words of Radiance just a little bit more.

There are some really some good secrets revealed in this one, and yet, there are still bigger secrets that are yet to come.  It sucks that I have finished the book and have to wait another two years for the next one. 

[ChaosBorn]

8/10 closer to 8.5 actually. As other posters have said there were a few plots that weren't sufficiently carried over from WoR, Adolin's murder of Sadeas being the main one. I was expecting consequences but it seems Adolin got away without any. 

Another thing that no one has mentioned so far is that none of the radiants make no  attempt to include Malata. There's one conversation between her and Shallan and then nothing between the rest. I can understand Brandon leaving her somewhat offscreen to keep her motives mysterious, but she wasn't even present in the final battle! 

Contrary to some other users, I really enjoyed Shallan's arc. Having multiple personalities seemed like the natural way for a Lightweaver to struggle with their powers. 

Overall I think this book suffered slightly from a large widening of scale and some of the character moments (Jasnah coming back) and continuity (Adolin's murder investigation) were weakened as a result. Having said that, I loved the last half of the book (parts 3,4 & 5). 

Also not a fan of an how the love triangle was resolved (not necessarily the outcome).

 

Spoiler