Calthrop

Just a note to add to the conversation since I haven't seen it discussed much, the only time we see a Fused run out of voidlight in OB is when Rysn's larkin snacks on the one that tried to rob the Thaylen treasury in the interlude. Given that their supplies seems to far outmatch Radiants unless a highstorm is around or Dalinar is deus ex-ing a treasury full of spheres, this seems like a key tactic the Radiants will need to use in coming books. Otherwise, handfuls of Fused can just play the attrition game and outlast whole groups of Radiants, as based on Kaladin's description of Dalinar charging his batteries it isn't something that can happen repeatedly.

No worries. I edited my previous post to remove the word asexual.

Come on, don't be rude. I wrote a fairly long post that was at least reasonably thought out, and that's where you go with it? I consider Jasnah someone who doesn't indulge that side of herself because she considers other pursuits more worthy of her time, not in the sense that she doesn't have those interests at all. The commentary on how well she keeps up her appearance is enough to justify that, I think. I'll edit my previous post to say, what, less-sexual or something, to address your concerns on my knowledge of the term.

There's a lot in this thread, so I haven't gone through the it all, but I think there's an interesting angle to a potential Kaladin/Jasnah relationship that I haven't seen discussed anywhere; the Alethi social structure as we knew it is done for. The economic/employment problems that stem from the loss of the Parshmen as slaves will be nigh impossible to overcome, and at some point the Radiants/Monarchs will have to negotiate with at least a subsection of the Parshmen, and abolition will be the basic sticking point. As a corollary, the darkeyed population/leaders will start to get very concerned that the lighteyes will just make them the new Parshmen (because of course they'll try). That will open the door for Alethi social structure to be addressed at some point, particularly the darkeyed/lighteyes imbalance and the slavery laws. At the very least, the darkeyed leaders/Radiants (at the very least those with principals, like Kaladin) won't stand for rounding up darkeyes as cannon fodder for the war with Odium without some social concessions, and the traditional Vorin justifications for lighteyed dominance are looking weaker and weaker by the day. As an athiest queen, Jasnah will see the logic/necessity behind the restructuring as the Vorin religion doesn't hold much truck with her, but of course she won't want to go through all the motions during a war. Of course, there's an easy way around that problem, but you'd need to earn the trust of the darkeyed population very quickly somehow... Which she could do by taking a particular famous former darkeyed slave as her groom/king consort/whatever. In one move she can signal to the masses that their problems won't be overlooked; a man/Windrunner like Kaladin would never let the issue rest after assurances are given. As a basis for a marriage pact, it fits both their characters to a T and helps skirt a very messy problem in the middle of a war for survival. We get a really fun courtship to read about, and come on, he was practically the first thing Jasnah asked Shallan about during their reunion conversation (before she found out Shallan was into him)! Jasnah might be a little less sexual than most, sure, but she's not dead, and in my opinion this path is more in character than her simply deciding she needs to bag the hot bridgeman. Edit: We'd also get to see a pissed-off Veil try to take over Shallan and do Honor-knows-what, so there's that, too! Edit 2: Changed wording of final sentence.

I was just giving my personal opinion on 'worst crap the Ghostbloods have done on screen,' and was mentioning that particular episode because of the bodycount though they're likely pretty close (I'm in the camp that thinks Yalb and some others made it out somehow). Also, in the case of the driver/parshmen, members directly did the deed, whereas the Tyn situation is more like a hopeful ordered to kill Jasnah who went all Reservoir Dogs on it. Killing the sailors matches up well, though, I agree, but as much as I love Jasnah someone taking a shot at her doesn't really make my list until I know more about the details of her history w the Ghostbloods. I digress, but I do think one of the most interesting things we'll see play out in the books is the concept that the Radiants aren't the absolute greatest moral authority on Roshar, and can be particularly unreliable when they are in morally ambiguous situations (cough Bridge Four minus Skar&Drehy cough cough Kaladin/Elhokar cough).

Ooooh, I've got thoughts about this... 1) I think the biggest new piece of information we've got about their motivations actually comes from a new WoB, namely that Iyatil was once a member of the 17th Shard. 2) What we've learned about the 17th Shard, as well as some of the letters from the SA books and their general pursuit of Hoid/Wit, lends credence to the idea that they pursue a general course of nonintervention. 3) Given everything we do know about the Ghostbloods, a hands-off policy doesn't seem to fit them. However, a group created to take an active role in dire events where certain people may have considered the 17th Shard falling short could fit them very well indeed. Their desire for Sja-Anat is likely threefold: if she can corrupt radiant spren as she did with Glys, that are not beholden to Odium yet draw some power from him, that would be pretty damnation handy, giving access to surge variants that the Radiants don't have. Also, you take a weapon away from Odium. Finally, and this is the big one, you gain leverage over the Radiants with her ability to corrupt Oathgate spren, giving the Ghostbloods the power to shut down Radiant travel if, say, a Radiant's brokenness, conscience, or guilt led him to do something stupid. Just saying, Radiants aren't exactly stable, Dalinar included. Bridge Four even deserted Thaylen City and abandoned the populous to Odium when hit with a crisis of conscience, and no one seemed to mind. I'd want a way to force them to fight, or at least not abandon whole parts of the world, given how fickle they can be and their poor understanding of their oaths. And you can be sure Odium has more secrets that he can frame in ways to make them uncertain, and you just can't risk them bailing to think things through, or another Recreance for that matter. Heck, even Syl thinks Kaladin is on the edge at the end of OB. Blindly trusting Radiants and their judgement is not going to fly with everyone, and to be honest, I'm not sure it should. The fact that we as readers are in their heads and know they have good intentions does not change that. Of course, the Ghostblood's 'evilness' or whatever is an unknown quantity at this point. That said, by far the worst thing I've actually seen one of their members do at this junction is killing Shallan's driver/parshmen in WoR, and we know Mraize didn't actually order that done. I also have some suspicions about that particular lait, but they'll have to wait for more information on Cultivation. Suffice it to say that killing people who could jeopardize a critical location would not be out of character for them, but it also doesn't mean they're out for Cosmere-level genocide, either.

Halfway through I would have sworn the book was the best the Cosmere had to offer. Even at the tail end of Thaylen City I would have placed the book head and shoulders above books 1 and 2. Of course there are a number of things that make the book less than perfect, but for me I think the biggest issue is the post-avalanche wrap-up, which not only was disappointing from a narrative perspective but leaves me disheartened about the series. While I loved some of those late sections (Lopen!), the closing chapters simply felt rushed/incomplete, and not only regarding the whole wedding thing (which I think we really should have seen and I know I'm not alone on that one). A few things that immediately come to mind: We never see Dalinar speak to his sons about Rathalas at all, despite him writing a book about his past. We never get to see the conversations with Jasnah about taking the Alethi throne, despite the innumerable pages devoted to Alethi politics throughout books 1-3. We never see any conversation regarding Bridge 4 abandoning a city full of people with Odium on the doorstep due to a crisis of uncertainty, despite all the discourse in the series on Windrunners protecting people. We never see anyone even bother to debrief Szeth after Thaylen City, despite his role in the events of the first two books. Given the time frame covered post-Thaylen City, all of these things would have occurred by the end of the book and so it's highly unlikely these scenes will ever be shown to us, which is just devastating. I can forgive a lot in the name of pacing, but its almost insulting to not show us these key scenes for all of these central characters we've grown to care about over the course of the series. I think even those who rated the book a 10 can admit that it isn't so tight that we couldn't have had at least some of these crucial character scenes shown to us. PS: Earlier in the book, the omission of any reunion dialogues with Jasnah is a pretty extreme oversight as well (Navani, for instance, would really have benefited from this from a character development standpoint given her emotions in WoR, particularly given her nonexistent, or at least non-written, reaction to Elhokar's loss).

Oh my. But if all those relationships are going to work out, who on Roshar would be able to arrange so many marriages? ; )

Here's the quote from Kaladin in WoR: "Light came from above, too steady to be lightning. Something was glowing on the plateau. Something that moved. It was hard to see, since water streamed off the side of the plateau above, falling in a sheet before their refuge. He swore he saw an enormous figure walking up there, a glowing inhuman form, followed by another, alien and sleek. Striding the storm. Leg after leg, until the glow passed." Here's the Dalinar quote from Oathbringer you mentioned: "Dalinar glanced and saw something luminous in the distance: a gargantuan figure that moved on spindly glowing legs." My guess is Dalinar saw the second of the two figures Kaladin mentions. I want to say there might have been other sightings in the books, but I can't say for certain since I'm looking for times when the whole out-of-body thing isn't happening. Regarding them being natural creatures, given that both Dalinar and Kaladin are both quite familiar with Chasmfiends as of the timeframe of the quotes, the descriptors seem to be pointing in another direction, at least in my opinion. The association with glowing/stormlight makes me believe that we're seeing some sort of spren. Edit: regarding the idea that lots of people see it since it isn't unheard of to get caught in a highstorm, I think it's interesting that people don't talk about it considering that their first thought would be that they saw the Stormfather himself, which I'm sure they'd be shouting about from the hilltops. My first thought is that both of them were seeing partially into the cognitive realm at the time (Kaladin is bonded at that point, and Dalinar had at least one shard-related experience in his youth that we know of: the strange vision at the end of WoR with the 'light and warmth' that the Stormfather didn't send, in addition to the attention he'd been drawing from the Unmade/Odium).

I have some thoughts on a spren that I believe to be a solid candidate for the Sibling. A major question implied by the existence of the Sibling is how on Roshar has a spren on the level of the Stormfather/Nightwatcher been able to conceal itself so well for so long? Well, there's an enormous spren walking around that we never got a name for (as far as I know). It also happens to like long walks with the Stormfather, and I suspect he's using the highstorms as cover to hide it, which would fit really well given his attitude towards the Sibling. When viewpoint characters in WoR are trapped in a chasm and caught in a highstorm, they note two enormous spren pacing the storm. One is pretty likely the Stormfather himself (perhaps being viewed partially in the cognitive realm). We never get much discussion of the second, but it's definitely there and certainly distinct from the Stormfather. "Alien and sleek" was the exact description, I believe. It is implied that it appears of similar size to the Stormfather. Interestingly, the character(s) never seem to wonder about this second giant spren after the storm. I personally don't believe that the Sibling has to physically be in Urithiru, though I've found some folks who militantly believe that it must still be inside the tower itself. If the minor functions of the Tower that still function are a hanging point, the spren I refer to would actually pass by the Tower regularly as it walks the highstorms with the Stormfather. Regarding the whole 'slumbering' bit, my guess at this point would involve a sort of waking dream, sustained by the constant presence of so much stormlight in the highstorms. In any case, with what we've learned in Oathbringer and the fact that the Stormfather would at least be aware of this spren walking his storms, the idea that the Stormfather is concealing the Sibling from humans makes too much sense to ignore in my opinion. At the very least, I think it's something to consider : )

I have a sneaking suspicion about 'Tarah,' as her physical description really reminds me of a particular assassin we meet in the WoR prologue (Liss). Also, Tarah seems to like to wear non-Alethi clothing styles, which is seems to work with what Jasnah noted about Liss in WoR. My guess is she was put on retainer regarding Amaram (any number of groups, or ahem female scholars, might have done that), then took off when the contract was canceled for whatever reason (or perhaps a more important target emerged). There are of course other possible explanations for her presence near Amaram's army, as a number of factions had interest in it at that time. She could even have been sent to look into Kaladin, as we know some groups were taking notice of his actions even that early in his career. The primary argument against would be the fact that her father actually seems to exist, although for the promise of a favor (like a better posting, perhaps in Mourn's Vault) I'm sure a person in his position would be willing to play along. Of course, she could just be a random girl, but where's the fun in that?

Good point you make there about the dust jacket. Still thought it worth remarking on.

Remember the line where the Sleepless mentions that 'they are watching the assassin, the liar, the surgeon, and the highprince' (paraphrasing here) and not paying attention to Lift? So, did we just get confirmation that Kaladin's father is a radiant? Can't think of any other obvious surgeons to fit the bill. The assassin is likely Szeth (though could be Jasnah's contact from WoR intro), the Liar is Shallan, and the highprince has got to be Dalinar (oh please don't let it be Sadeas with a regrowth power). Leaving the surgeon, and my money is on Lirin. I know there was speculation before, but this kind of seals it in my humble opinion. Unless some random battlefield surgeon is a hidden radiant.

Many thanks for getting that quote (and for your other contributions here).

I agree, something is definitely odd about the mask's material. It could be that what Shallan describes as carapace is something that looks similar but doesn't have an analogous material on Roshar (so she just calls it carapace at a glance). Also, I can't cite anything exactly since I only own the audiobook of Bands, but if I remember correctly the Hunter's masks are described as being made of something other than wood (I could be wrong though since I've only heard that passage once). Perhaps someone with a readable copy could check this out; I'll try finding the relevant passage in the audio version later when I get some time. I'll post back either way.

I was thinking either identity, connection, or one of the other less-understood feruchemical metals might do it when you consider the new medallion paradigm. In any case it's quite a powerful thing to consider, hiding yourself in the Physical Realm. Crazy to think she was doing this all the way through Words of Radiance and we didn't notice! Great writing on Brandon's part to use perspective like this to hide what she might have been doing.

Apologies Moogle. Thanks for the help. Edit: After a word with Moogle, changed the title to be "About a Hunter." Thanks again Moogle.

So with the information given in BoM I think it can be safely said that Iyatil is most likely from Southern Scadrial, the Hunter Clan specifically. The description of Iyatil's mask and the description of Hunter's masks growing into their faces are too close to ignore, plus Iyatil's whole fixation on everything being about a hunter/prey relationship. This isn't going too far as an assumption, I think. With the advent of Bands, though, we now know what kind of magical capabilities Iyatil may have given her background (if any). I am of course referring to the medallions and their ability to grant a feruchemical power. While there are complexities here that I will not be getting into, I'm sure Sharders will come up with some interesting uses of those. Maybe what comes later in this post will be related, maybe not. I want to go back to something I've been pondering since WoR, observations about Iyatil in particular that I haven't seen discussed. Now is a good time to bring these up. I'll go back and add page numbers for the quotes later on if anyone is interested in them. The question this post considers is does Iyatil have a magical capability, and if so, do we have anything in the published materials that could hint at it's nature? I'm going strictly by published information here, not rampant speculation, so let's take a look at Words of Radiance (WoR). In WoR, consider the first scene we see Iyatil. Shallon finds a room full of Ghostbloods under the apartment. She says nothing about anyone with a mask, though, and we know she was nervous and took a good look around. Then, all of a sudden, Iyatil appears right next to her during her talk with Mraize. Odd that she doesn't notice a person wearing what she later describes a "disturbing" mask, and that such a person basically came up on top of her, I think. But perhaps, you say, intoning Lift, Iyatil is just good at sneaky-stuff like that. Then Shallan leaves the apartment. I will point out to you first that Pattern is the only person who sees Iyatil during the following chase-and-evade sequence. Shallan hears something 'like fabric' while hiding, but never actually gets a look at Iyatil after she leaves the apartment. See, a person wearing a mask like Iyatil's out in the War Camps will probably be pretty noticeable in general. You could easily send folks around inquiring about such oddities, and learn some of her movements, the kind of thing a woman like Iyatil would not likely care for. Being easily tracked. So rolling out with a creepy carapace mask stuck to your face in a War Camp aligned against Parshmen who wear carapace armor is probably an occurrence Iyatil would avoid at all costs if it would be remarked upon. You say again she is sneaky-folk, and can stroll down busy streets with no one noticing. I say people wouldn't notice her following them like they wouldn't notice a Chasmfiend giving chase. You say hoods-up and shadows, sneaky-sneak-sneak. The next Ghostblood sequence is at the camp outside of the Unclaimed Hills. Shallan arrives, looks around. No notice of Iyatil in the group she finds. She talks to Mraize a bit, he tortures small animals during conversation to impress everyone. Bam! Iyatil appears standing RIGHT THERE holding the mink-thing Mraize just shot. Shallan even asks herself this time, "where was this woman hiding?" Hmmm. Sneaky-sneak, in the bushes you say? Maybe she is just good at crouching, Elder Scrolls-style? Chameleon robe?. ; ) On to the scene where Shallan waits at the info drop in the tree; she realizes they are watching the tree as well and decides check around for suspicious folk. She then sends Pattern to see if anyone is watching, and Pattern returns saying he found Iyatil in the building. After that Shallan hides on the stairs and catches her leaving the building. Aha, you say! So nothing to all of this! I'm not buying it. The first thing Iyatil says to Shallan? "How did you find me?" The answer Shallan gives? Shallan just had some random person watching the building, and thus summarily defeated Sneak-Master Mask heads up. Iyatil is thus stymied by a simple old lookout. Just keep in mind it was actually Pattern who did the initial spotting again, so it was really a spren lookout, who can easily see past the Physical Realm. Then the pair go adventuring to the insane asylum, looking for Taln. After showing Iyatil to the Ardents, who immediately freak out at the sight of her, Shallan finds Taln. As she goes to leave, Iyatil asks Shallan, "Who are you, Veil? You caught me in stealth spying upon you, and you can lose me in the streets." These things lead Iyatil to think Shallan is something special. Iyatil isn't talking you-are-good-at-hiding-in-an-alley special. Nor smart-enough-to-use-a-lookout special. This is join our secret world-hopping group with lots of magical artifacts, special. The last time we see Iyatil in WoR, she takes a few pot shots at Amaram from just outside the hole he cut in the small cell Taln is in, as he attempts to sneak Taln out. We conveniently know that the blow-darts don't have much range from an earlier conversation between Shallan and Mraize. Amaram definitely describes Iyatil here and she is pretty close. Taln grabs the darts, Amaram hops out, giving chase (we know the cell is small, so this wouldn't take long). No suspicous mask-wearing folks in sight! Yet another odd occurrence to add to our pile! There is something in all of this, I think. My ideas follow, and I'll be interested to hear yours. I've tried hard to build a case here that at least we have a series of unusual occurrences here that cannot be explained away by Iyatil being simply very sneaky, or by Shallan becoming a master of intrigue. I find it highly likely that Iyatil is either using Southern Scadrial magic to conceal herself or has some method of hiding herself in the Cognitive Realm. A magical method of concealment would certainly be attractive to a hunter who spends her life stalking prey. Also, we have hints that she is a worldhopper, and we know that using the Cognitive Realm is a common method of doing such hopping, so perhaps there is a connection there with her apparent ability to conceal herself. Were Iyatil in fact 'hiding' somehow in the Cognitive Realm when stalking Shallan on the streets, I would guess that Pattern would spot her right away whereas beings in the Physical Realm may look right over her. Same situation when she was, in her own words, "in stealth." Now that we have a likely candidate for Iyatil's background and know a bit about her people's native magical capabilities, perhaps this can yield some interesting conversations. I'm really interested to hear what you have to say, so thanks in advance for reading all of this!

Thanks Moogle. I haven't finished the anniversary edition yet but didn't see this mentioned in the new info threads, must've overlooked it. Glad I wasn't going off the tinfoil roof there.

Appreciate the info. I knew the usual pronunciation of Hoid's name but thought 'Hoed' might have been a bastardized version of his name. Long shot, I know, just had to ask. Thanks Weiry.

I'm a long time lurker so please be gentle as I would be surprised if this hasn't been discussed before (and probably quickly dismissed). I've tried the Coppermind and site search, and couldn't find what I was looking for, so here I am stepping out of the shadows. I'm doing a re-listen of Elantris with the 10th anniversary edition, and I don't own the texts, so I'm fully aware this could be a matter of simple spelling, but it seems a little, off, in that way that makes you wonder a bit. Brandon's recent comments that there are bits in Elantris that he is surprised we haven't asked about has prompted me to question everything in this book, it seems. When the madness takes an Elantrian during the time the Shaod was corrupted, the Elantrians refer to those who have been broken by the pain as going "Ho-id" (at least that's what it sounds like in the audiobook, suspiciously so). Again, I'm aware that this may be spelled differently in the text, but even if so it seems awfully close to that droll fellow's name that makes our ears perk up. And folks from Arelon and Teod do have funny ways with vowels anyhow, so even with a slight difference in spelling it might be worth considering. So...implications? (I typed that last bit in Pattern's voice for you).