[OB] The third Great Spren

[adbf]

Quote

Once they entered the hall, Shallan gasped, holding up a diamond broam. Gorgeous, intricate pictures of the Heralds—made of thousands of tiles— adorned the ceiling, each in a circular panel.

The art on the walls was more enigmatic. A solitary figure hovering above the ground before a large blue disc, arms stretched to the side as if to embrace it. Depictions of the Almighty in his traditional form as a cloud bursting with energy and light. A woman in the shape of a tree, hands spreading toward the sky and becoming branches. Who would have thought to find pagan symbols in the home of the Knights Radiant?

Other murals depicted shapes that reminded her of Pattern, windspren… ten kinds of spren. One for each order?

I see, that everybody seems to identify the three figures on the walls as depictions of Honor, Cultivation and *ahem* Somebody Else. However it's only part of the murals, and the rest of them are specifically spren-themed. In fact the rest of them are to be the types of spren, that make bonds with Knight Radiants: Cryptics, Windspren and… the Stormfather. Yes, unsurpisingly he is there on the murals: “Depictions of the Almighty in his traditional form as a cloud bursting with energy and light” - exactly the image of the Stormfather.

That means that the “woman in the shape of a tree” seems to be how the Nightwatcher is looking. As Shallan thinks about “pagan symbols” just after mentioning the tree-shaped woman, there is apparently an widespread belief among the population of Roshar, depicting Cultivation in just this form, just like it's the popular belief that Honor looks like a “cloud bursting with energy and light”, that formed the Stormfather's image as such. It will mean that the Nightwatcher would be shaped by a corresponding belief.

Now the third figure. We know that there are only 3 spren that make Bonds with Bondsmiths, and together with Stormfather and Nightwatcher it's most likely to find the image of the third Great Spren, who is also most likely the image of a god as believed by large enough percentage of Rosharians. And it's not Odium, since I cannot believe, that an Odium-shaped spren will be so much in the ranks of the Radiants.

And in fact there is another significant religion on Roshar, we know about. The Iriali and their One. A religion that clearly refers to some significant worldhopping experience in the mythical past. Doesn't it strike anybody as quite fitting, that the One's depiction would coincide with the worldhopping image from the pool of Elantris?

Edited November 3, 2017 by adbf

[Calderis]

Hmmm. I hadn't thought of that aspect, but I like it with the Cusicesh idea. 

A multitude of faces representing the experience of many, joined in One. 

[paperstones]

I took it to be the figure was Honor, the tree woman as Cultivation, and the depiction of the Almighty is actually representative of Andonalsiums investiture since the Highstorms have always been there. This shows how much their faiths have been twisted.

[Blacksmithki]

Well, the issue is that there are 13 total murals, so if those were actually stormfather nightwatcher and other, then we have a Spren mural that is not one of the Spren a Radient bonds mixed in with 12 images of Radient Spren.

[bo.montier]

18 minutes ago, paperstones said:

I took it to be the figure was Honor, the tree woman as Cultivation, and the depiction of the Almighty is actually representative of Andonalsiums investiture since the Highstorms have always been there. This shows how much their faiths have been twisted.

This is, for the most part, how I took it as well. Shallan says that the Cloud is an image of the Almighty. I think she misunderstood the art due to the perversion of the faith down through the ages. 
Honor is the man holding his arms out, Cultivation is the woman in the shape of a tree. I don't know what the cloud is meant to represent, but your argument that it is investiture in the highstorms works for me or now.

[Toaster Retribution]

So the third one (Disk Dude, as named on Discord), is the third uberspren? Heard it before, and it does sound likely. I doubt it is a Herald (adding just one into that mix wouldn't make sense). I dont thinn its Odium either. Good job!

[adbf]

42 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

Well, the issue is that there are 13 total murals, so if those were actually stormfather nightwatcher and other, then we have a Spren mural that is not one of the Spren a Radient bonds mixed in with 12 images of Radient Spren.

I was under the impression that in that very moment Shallan was hardly in the state to stop and take a careful count. The realization that the murals seem to depict spren for each of the orders would come even from a vague impression that the murals are somewhat around 10. Because it just makes sense, that a sanctum sanctorum of the Radiants would depict representatives from the so important partners of the bonds.

Shallan's realization, that the murals depict spren for each order does not come from the first moment. She first has to see that there are depictions of Cryptics and Windrunner's spren. And only after that she sees the pattern. Probably counting the “traditional depiction of the Almighty” in the number of spren too, because she knows at least something about Dalinar's spren, even if not seeing the Stormfather herself. The first glance at the “traditional depiction” was just first glance, when the cultural prejudice will be strongest and Shallan will see what a Rosharan of Vorin upbringing would see.

Saying that, I agree that your point weakens a bit this interpretation of mine. But still, if the murals really depict spren for each of the orders, as Shallan is guessing (and it actually makes sense), then the Stormfather's depiction must be among them (in Urithiru they should know, so, unlike God's and Herald's of long past, the spren's depicton should be right). I don't believe there will be something more Stormfather-like than the “traditional depiction” Shallan mentions. And that leaves the tree-woman and the figure falling into the pool mixed up with the known spren named Stormfather.

 

paperstones, bo.montier, my main point was, that these 3 images were mixed up with the depictions of prime spren. And the Bond-making spren are something every Radiant would be very aware of, how they look. So it makes sense for the 3 special Bondsmiths' spren to be there also. And they are special enough to be visibly different from the usual prime spren thus earning mention.

[Yezrien]

Quote

Other murals depicted shapes that reminded her of Pattern, windspren… ten kinds of spren. One for each order?

She sees ten kinds of spren, not including the big three. If the big three are the Bondsmith spren, shouldn't there only be nine kinds of lesser spren? Which of the ten that she sees would pair with a bondsmith?

I think we have to look at this quote from in-world WoR:

Quote

"But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious."

(epigraph on chapter 44)

This number was not uncommon for them, but not constant. And they didn't seek to increase it by great bounds, but it sounds like they could increase it a little if they needed to.

Conclusion: Not all bondsmiths bond godspren. Perhaps only three of them do, or perhaps only two, or perhaps only one (the Stormfather). Additional bondsmiths bond a smaller, more ordinary kind of spren.  

Edited November 3, 2017 by Belzedar

[Blacksmithki]

5 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

She sees ten kinds of spren, not including the big three. If the big three are the Bondsmith spren, shouldn't there only be nine kinds of lesser spren? Which of the ten that she sees would pair with a bondsmith?

I think we have to look at this quote from in-world WoR:

This number was not uncommon for them, but not constant. And they didn't seek to increase it by great bounds, but it sounds like they could increase it a little if they needed to.

Conclusion: Not all bondsmiths bond godspren. Perhaps only three of them do, or perhaps only two, or perhaps only one (the Stormfather). Additional bondsmiths bond a smaller, more ordinary kind of spren.  

Seems good to me, but could it also maybe be that multiple people could bond the same God-Spren?

and that those three other murals are not bonded Spren but Honor, Cultivation, and something else?

Edited November 3, 2017 by Blacksmithki

[Yezrien]

Just now, Blacksmithki said:

Seems good to me, but could it also maybe be that multiple people could bond the same God-Spren?

I hadn't thought of that. If that's possible, it would fit well with the theme of bondsmiths.

[Blacksmithki]

2 minutes ago, Belzedar said:

I hadn't thought of that. If that's possible, it would fit well with the theme of bondsmiths.

I can't check right now but was it "their Spren WERE understood to be unique" or "their Spren WAS understood to be unique"

Implications obvious.

[Calderis]

@Belzedar @Blacksmithki

There are only three Bondsmith spren. If the Bondsmiths can increase beyond that number, then it would require multiples to be bonded to one of the three. We don't actually have confirmation that that is possible though. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/4r6ds5/oathbringer_spoilers_stormlight_three_update_3/d69n5a5/?context=3

Quote

Ghodicu

The pocket companion states that there are three spren that can bond a person to make them into a bondsmith, the Stormfather being one of them. As far as I recall the books implied that the number was low, and implied heavily that it was around that number in an epigraph, but didn't actually have a straight confirmation. So, should I take that as canon?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you can take that as canon. They came to me for that information.

yahasgaruna

Sweet. I guess it hasn't been canonized which three spren these are? I seem to recall that the prevailing theory on 17th Shard was that Nightwatcher was one of them, and the third was that weird spren with too many faces that Axies the Collector looked at in the tWoK interlude.

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

 

[WildSpeculation]

Is it possible that Shallan saw the 10 minorspen? This is going off the speculation that each KR Order has a Majorspren (Windrunner-Honorspren, Lightweaver-Liespren, Edgedancer-Cultivationspren) and a minorspren *speculation(Windrunner-windspren, Lightweaver-creationspren, Edgedancer-lifespren). If that is the case, is it not possible that the Bondsmiths have a minorspren and a Majorspren? In which case the 'major' spren for Bondsmiths would be Godspren, whose number appears to be limited to three? (Stormfather, Nightwatcher and a third unknown) It also appears to me that the Majorspren are related in someway to the minorspren. i.e. Honorspren are windspren but more, Cryptics are creationspren but more....

So, it may be possible that for the mural to show all of the KR spren needed the 9 varities of Major/minorspren plus the Bondsmith minor spren, plus the Bondsmith Majorspren...ie the 'Godspren', for a total of 13 pictures. I know that is a lot of logical leaps, but my name is not WildSpeculation for nothing.

[Nashan’Elin]

7 minutes ago, WildSpeculation said:

So, it may be possible that for the mural to show all of the KR spren needed the 9 varities of Major/minorspren plus the Bondsmith minor spren, plus the Bondsmith Majorspren...ie the 'Godspren', for a total of 13 pictures. I know that is a lot of logical leaps, but my name is not WildSpeculation for nothing.

I think this is totally possible. And, from the Oathbringer endpapers, each Herald (except for Ash) appear to be surrounded with their order’s minorspren. Which would make Ishar, and therefore the Bondsmiths, having the minorspren of gloryspren. Maybe?

I wish we could see this murals for ourselves, instead of relying on Shallan’s admittedly not-super-trustable descriptions!

[WildSpeculation]

23 minutes ago, Nashan'Elin said:

Which would make Ishar, and therefore the Bondsmiths, having the minorspren of gloryspren. Maybe

I was trying to figure out what those ones appeared to be, but yes it looks like you might be right. I am going to put Gloryspren in my Stormlight Chart as speculation and see how it plays out in a couple weeks. That leaves me 6/10 minorspren filled out. Given most of those are guesses, but.....

[Blackwarder]

I just had a thought, could it be that by the time of the recreance there was only one bondsmith and he was bonded to the great spren with the many faces? Could it be that Cusicesh the Protector is a dead godspern?

 

And another theory, the many faces Cusicesh show are all the faces of the KR who broken their oaths.

 

warder

[Confused]

I think the three major mural spren are the Dawnshards – large splinters of Adonalsium’s power. The clouds and lightning are the Rider of Storms. The tree is the Nightwatcher’s pre-Shattering predecessor. The third figure encircling the blue disk is Cusicesh or another pre-Shattering predecessor. Shallan considers them pagan influences. IMO these are the pre-Shattering Gods of the Earth, Sky and Water.

[Yata]

On 3/11/2017 at 10:25 PM, Confused said:

I think the three major mural spren are the Dawnshards – large splinters of Adonalsium’s power. The clouds and lightning are the Rider of Storms. The tree is the Nightwatcher’s pre-Shattering predecessor. The third figure encircling the blue disk is Cusicesh or another pre-Shattering predecessor. Shallan considers them pagan influences. IMO these are the pre-Shattering Gods of the Earth, Sky and Water.

Also if I agree with the Rider of the Storm and the NW as Adonalsium's Splinter (I believe to be the one who proposed here on the forum) and the Bondsmiths bond with them as RadiantSpren. I disagree with them as "the Dawnshard" because Honor say the Dawnshards are lost or useless (I think the right wording is "but now without the Dawnshards....") and at least 2 Dawnshards (Rider of the Storm and Nightwatcher) are fine and ready to fight

[paperstones]

The symbolism is referred to as pagan which is pre vorinism. We need to look at them through those eyes. 

We know the Highstorms predate Honor and Cultivation arriving on Roshar. I actually wonder if the amount of investiture is one of the reasons they came here. We also know from WoB that the Heralds are Rosharan but he has he RAFO if they are from Roshar the planet. This means to me that they are from Ashyn.

So we have 10 spren, 10 Heralds, and the three murals - Honor, Cultivation, and the cloud with energy and light is Adonalsiums investiture. 

This is showing how the power structure is set up. Honor and Cultivation highjacked the existing system of investiture as their own and invested in it themselves. The Spren were already here. They just added their own.

This may even be how they set up the Oathpact. All three Shards using an existing system as their own and Honor was able to use Adonalsiums power to bind Odium here.

[Confused]

@Yata, I think the Adonalsium predecessors to these spren are the Dawnshards, not these spren themselves. Honor and Cultivation’s Investiture mutated Adonalsium’s inherent Investiture when they Invested Roshar, and human personification of the Storms and the Earth changed these spren from how the listeners personified them. IMO, these spren no longer are Dawnshards or hold Adonalsium’s Investiture. They are not “fine and ready to fight” or capable of binding both mortal and Voidish.

I do think the Water God was and is the third Dawnshard and remains Adonalsium’s Investiture. Perhaps it can still bind anything? A future participant in the fight?

Thanks (and an upvote) for previously mentioning this idea. I do not mean to claim novelty. I recall this idea kicking around for several years. Just thought it deserved a shout-out here.

[Yata]

12 hours ago, Confused said:

@Yata, I think the Adonalsium predecessors to these spren are the Dawnshards, not these spren themselves. Honor and Cultivation’s Investiture mutated Adonalsium’s inherent Investiture when they Invested Roshar, and human personification of the Storms and the Earth changed these spren from how the listeners personified them. IMO, these spren no longer are Dawnshards or hold Adonalsium’s Investiture. They are not “fine and ready to fight” or capable of binding both mortal and Voidish.

I disagree, IF the Rider, NW and other are/was Adonalsium's Spren, injecting them with Shard's Investiture will not replace the inherit Investiture they already possess. So unless H&C pumped in them a lot more of Investiture than the One they already had...they will still be Adonalsium's Investiture mainly.

Anyway Honor seems to imply the Dawnshards' loss is something relative that sadly happened if he was the cause (together with Cultivation)...I believe we will not see that kind of attitude from him.

Lastly, I didn't want to claim the idea. I was Just clarity that I agree with the general idea behind but not with the Dawnshards'Identity