[OB] Oathbringer chapters 28-30

[kari-no-sugata]

51 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

“I think that in a coming highstorm, Queen Fen of Thaylenah is going to have a quite remarkable experience.”

Of all things, who would have thought Dalinar would become a master hacker capable of uploading Stormfather.exe to the stubborn.

Navani feels like the type of person who would keep a list of all the people who mocked him for his highstorm visions too...

When the Stormphone rings, you WILL answer. Whether you like it or not.

I seem to remember Brandon saying there were some interesting POVs in Part 2, or something like that. So I'm guessing that'll be some world leaders.

[Gigalemesh]

1 minute ago, Steeldancer said:

Ahh I just explained this. If it's based on the Heralds the superspren don't matter. 

It sounds like they are offering an alternative to it being based on heralds, in which it's based on orders, so the spren would matter

[kiapet]

20 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I really like this theory of Taravangian becoming a Bondsmith. The Physical one, I would think. Meaning we only need the Spiritual one still...

(Dalinar is most likely Cognitive, as he can do that map trick together with Shallan, and the Order of Lightweavers as well as the Illumination Surge are Cognitive)

From what I can gather, the purpose of a Bondsmith is to unite, not through war and suffering, but through creating trust. Dalinar's past highlights this: he conquered Alethkar with an iron fist, and the result is a group of states that are too busy competing with each other to come together and fight the Desolation. Now, with the visions, Dalinar has another way. Taravangian's belief that the ends justify the means is an interesting disparate viewpoint, but I believe that Dalinar's will win out the day, and that ultimately Taravangian is doing more work for Odium than he is against him.

[Guest]

Alright. Great chapters.

Re-Shepir is there! Yay! Fitting to release this on Halloween.

That said, my worries for Shallan still continue to multiply:

Quote

Shallan kept her word. She was drawn toward that blackness, but she wasn’t stupid. Well, mostly not stupid. She waited, transfixed by the pit, until she heard voices from the hallway behind her. He can’t see me in Veil’s clothing! she thought, and started to reawaken. How long had she been kneeling there?

She took off Veil’s hat and long white coat, then hid them behind the debris. Stormlight enfolded her, painting the image of a havah over her trousers, gloved hand, and tight buttoned shirt.

Shallan. She was Shallan again—innocent, lively Shallan. Quick with a quip, even when nobody wanted to hear it. Earnest, but sometimes over-eager. She could be that person.

That’s you, a part of her cried as she adopted the persona. That’s the real you. Isn’t it? Why do you have to paint that face over another?

So, she painted Shallan's face over Veil's face, which she wore as Shallan. She now begins to think of Shallan as a persona and not herself.

Also, the fact, that in the text itself, she's constantly switching between describing herself as Veil and Shallan.

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Shallan clasped her hands before herself, and the Patternblade formed in her palms. She twisted it in a sweaty grip, falling into the dueling stance Adolin had been teaching her.

Holding it immediately brought pain. Not the screaming of a dead spren. Pain inside. The pain of an Ideal sworn, but not yet overcome.

She begins to wield Patternblade as Shallan, but only because she must in a high adrenaline confrontation. I highly doubt, that she'll always be able to now, but still a step in the right direction. Confrontation is key.

Funny thing is, that she admits to have spoken the truth, that allows her to wield Pattern, but also rightfully says, that she hasn't overcome it yet. Hopefully, that realization will bring her to finally get over her fear of wielding Pattern - and cause her to drop Radiant, bringing her to see, that Radiant always was a part of what she is.

Quote

The creature trembled, and Shallan finally saw the reason for its fear. It had been trapped. The event had happened recently in the spren’s reckoning, though Shallan had the impression that in fact centuries upon centuries had passed.

Re-Shephir was terrified of it happening again. The imprisonment had been unexpected, presumed impossible. And it had been done by a Lightweaver like Shallan, who had understood this creature.

It feared her like an axehound might fear someone with a voice similar to that of its harsh master.

Shallan hung on, pressing herself against the enemy, but realization washed over her—the understanding that this thing was going to know her completely, discover each and every one of her secrets.

Her ferocity and determination wavered; her commitment began to seep away.

So she lied. She insisted that she wasn’t afraid. She was committed. She’d always been that way. She would continue that way forever.

Power could be an illusion of perception. Even within yourself.

This is what scares me. She continues to follow a path of self-delusion. Yes, lying to yourself to make you stronger for a short while is acceptable, but in the end it is just a crutch. She finally needs acknowledge her past, her secrets... Still so many mental blocks...

She finally shows how powerful she can be, but still is held back by old fears.

[Leyrann]

14 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

An interesting thought...

All or most of the books have decayed, unsurprisingly. How well paper lasts depends upon a lot of factors but it's rare for it preserve well across 1500 years, or however long it has been since the tower was abandoned.

So anyway... books should have a spren / cognitive part. They should "remember" what they were. Maybe they can be restored with Soulcasting?

Not Soulcasting, actually. Soulcasting first convinces the Identity it is something else, and then changes it to match that something else. If you want to repair the books, you'll need Regrowth. Luckily, that's what Renarin can do.

[king of nowhere]

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Bridge Four had actually assimilated Renarin

quick! someone go make a borg meme of bridge 4!

[Leyrann]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

So, she painted Shallan's face over Veil's face, which she wore as Shallan

She doesn't. She only paints Shallan's clothes because she didn't have them with her and didn't want to be seen wearing Veil's clothes (or nothing at all).

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Leyrann said:

She doesn't. She only paints Shallan's clothes because she didn't have them with her and didn't want to be seen wearing Veil's clothes (or nothing at all).

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That’s you, a part of her cried as she adopted the persona. That’s the real you. Isn’t it? Why do you have to paint that face over another?

It is stated there.

She didn't just drop Veil's face, but painted Shallan over Veil, while painting Shallan's clothes over Veil's.

Edited October 31, 2017 by SLNC

[king of nowhere]

and hey, i keep reading and see that Lyn has just been added to the group of adolin, shallan and some bridge 4. why do i see her wearing a red shirt?

[dendrophobe]

Just now, SLNC said:

It is stated there.

I took that as being metaphorical. Like Shallan can't quite tell that it's her true face, and instead it feels like another disguise.

[Leyrann]

Just now, SLNC said:

It is stated there.

Oh wait, I was looking at the first part of the quote. I actually read this as being metaphorical - she creates the happy, innocent Shallan just like she paints the down-to-Earth Veil or the in-control Radiant.

[kari-no-sugata]

7 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I can see Shallan being the Champion, but at the same time, both Kaladin and Dalinar have been hateful too. That said, a connection to an Unmade and strong current hatred doesn´t bode well. She is one of the most likely ones, as of now. 

Well, considering that Shallan just drove off a piece of Odium, it seems a tad premature to start shoving her into the Odium's Champion pigeonhole.

I'm not sure that Shallan has a real connection to the Unmade, except in the sense that it knows her. I wonder if Shallan will confront it again during OB or in a future book? I suspect she'll need a full Radiant bond to face it for real and have any chance of destroying it or similar.

Besides, Shallan has the ultimate plot armour - no Shallan, no sketchbook. If another gifted artist turns up, maybe we can start to worry though

[Leyrann]

1 minute ago, king of nowhere said:

and hey, i keep reading and see that Lyn has just been added to the group of adolin, shallan and some bridge 4. why do i see her wearing a red shirt?

I didn't, actually. I already thought it interesting how she started that talk with Shallan about the Shardblade, and now it was mentioned that she was to draw a map. I think we're seeing Shallan's first (maybe even only?) squire here.

[dendrophobe]

Just now, kari-no-sugata said:

Well, considering that Shallan just drove off a piece of Odium, it seems a tad premature to start shoving her into the Odium's Champion pigeonhole.

I'm not sure that Shallan has a real connection to the Unmade, except in the sense that it knows her. I wonder if Shallan will confront it again during OB or in a future book? I suspect she'll need a full Radiant bond to face it for real and have any chance of destroying it or similar.

Good point, but the thing now knows her. To the core. If it can manage to pry Pattern free and bond Shallan in his place, that could very well turn her to Odium's side whether she wanted it or not. We have no idea what the effect would be of a Radiant-Unmade bond. But I would think such a thing would be easier now that the Unmade knows her.

[kari-no-sugata]

7 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Not Soulcasting, actually. Soulcasting first convinces the Identity it is something else, and then changes it to match that something else. If you want to repair the books, you'll need Regrowth. Luckily, that's what Renarin can do.

Hmm, interesting. Yeah, Regrowth would probably be better...

[Argent]

Stupid meetings...

Chapter 30: Mother of Lies

Quote

Almighty above… it’s like a creationspren. Only so, so wrong.

Hmm. I am reminded of the Listener Song of Revision, the one stanza we have:

Quote

Artform for colors beyond our ken;
For its grand songs we yearn.
We must attract creationspren;
These songs suffice 'til we learn. 

Artform, of all things, is tied to creationspren. I mean, obviously, it makes sense, but there is a pretty hefty common theme running here - Shallan, art, illusions, creativity... Perhaps I am just looking too hard at something that's nothing more than a shared motif.

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She drew upon the Stormlight within, and pushed herself farther into Re-Shephir’s essence. She couldn’t tell if it was actually happening—if she was pushing her physical body farther into the creature’s tar—or if this was all a representation of someplace else.

Reminds me a little bit of how Vin fought Ruin after she Ascended. 

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A place beyond this room in the tower, beyond even Shadesmar.

... ah, yeah, that could explain why it reminds me of it. If this is Spiritual battle, it should feel similar.

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Re-Shephir was terrified of it happening again. The imprisonment had been unexpected, presumed impossible. And it had been done by a Lightweaver like Shallan, who had understood this creature.

Ooooh, now this is new and interesting. Could this be tied to the Recreance? 9 Orders trapping the 9 Unmade, 1 Order to keep watch. And this either required them to break their oaths first, or the act of trapping the Unmade led to the breaking of the Oaths.

Feels a little crackpotty, but I've seen worse.

Quote

Shallan frowned at the tone of his voice, then followed his gaze, to look at the thing Re-Shephir had been hiding. The pillar in the exact center of the room.

It was set with thousands upon thousands of cut gemstones, most larger than Shallan’s fist. Together, they were a treasure worth more than most kingdoms.

Hmm, I don't think that was the trap though. Maybe it was what provided fuel for the trap, but I think Re-Shephir must've been trapped in a gem similar to old Gavilar's. A gem we are going to find buried under all those gemstones.

Woah, what chapters! Good stuff, team. This book is picking up nicely!

[Aminar]

3 minutes ago, dendrophobe said:

Good point, but the thing now knows her. To the core. If it can manage to pry Pattern free and bond Shallan in his place, that could very well turn her to Odium's side whether she wanted it or not. We have no idea what the effect would be of a Radiant-Unmade bond. But I would think such a thing would be easier now that the Unmade knows her.

Somehow I doubt we'll see that happen. Rather, we'll see someone else bound to an unmade. Or what an unmade turns a listener into, which is a really interesting question. But Brandon was probably just letting us know that the unmade can fit into the same cracks in the soul that Pattern and Syl have. How that all works... We'll have to see. I'm intrigued.

[Guest]

@dendrophobe & @Leyrann

She never says, that she drops Veil's face. She says that she takes off the hat and coat, yes, but nothing else. After that she paints Shallan's havah and then states, that she became Shallan again. I figured, that she painted Shallan over Veil, since she also called Shallan a persona in the immediately following sentence.

[StormingTexan]

Ugh actually had to work some this morning so just finished the chapters. Wow after these chapters I feel like this is going to be the best SA book yet. 

Finally found Oathbringer! I have been wondering how this would go down as whomever finds it would be a suspect luckily the soldiers were honest and I think Dalinar did the right thing. Interesting how it didn't scream as much as the others. Hmm reuniting the kingdoms by a warlord from a waring people is proving to be difficult. Who would have thought? The visions should help though. Really like the discussion with Mr. T. I would like to take back my previous thoughts that he was playing dumb during their first meeting. 

Shallan is freaking me out a bit with all the third person discussion of her personalities. Of course she redeemed herself later doing a lot as Shallan herself. Finally Bridge 4 is back! That fight scene was pretty intense. Was glad to see Renarin act more radiant'ish. Shallan is a badass.. Confirmation on an Unmade was awesome but leads to a lot more questions. 

Will November 14th ever arrive? 

[dendrophobe]

2 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

 

Will November 14th ever arrive? 

I estimate in about two weeks. 

[kari-no-sugata]

1 minute ago, dendrophobe said:

Good point, but the thing now knows her. To the core. If it can manage to pry Pattern free and bond Shallan in his place, that could very well turn her to Odium's side whether she wanted it or not. We have no idea what the effect would be of a Radiant-Unmade bond. But I would think such a thing would be easier now that the Unmade knows her.

Certainly there is a real risk and Shallan confronting it again would make for a dramatic way for Shallan to truly confront herself. But confronting yourself is a classic trial for a hero to face. I'm sure there'll be lots of trials for the main characters to go through but I think people get way too excited about the possibility of a hero turning to the "dark side", as if it's the only way you ever get bad guys.

I would suggest that by far the biggest risk factor for Odium's Champion are those who haven't already bonded a spren but are "broken" enough and also have strong desires or goals.

[sooyangi]

Wow I actually forgot we get preview chapters today! I loved this week's chapters - Shallan's chapters were especially good and I'm am SO happy we finally got to see Bridge Four. I also laughed when Pattern told Adolin, "... go do something stupid without letting me watch" LOL

It's also interesting that both Renarin and Shallan can sense the wrongness but not Dalinar? I wonder if Kaladin will be able to sense it once he's there? Also, I can't wait for Dalinar's chapters when he surprises all the monarchs/leaders with his visions.

I also appreciated the small bonding moment Renarin and Shallan had. Although I don't know if I could call it a bonding moment but at least they're having a conversation without Shallan thinking how creepy he is.

We're only a couple weeks away until the book is released!!

[psc92]

As far as the "One Unmade for each Herald that broke under torture theory" I really don't buy it. We know that at least some of the Unmade have existed in previous Desolations. We saw Re-Shephir's Midnight Essence in one of Dalinar's Visions, and in the one with Nohadon he specifically mentions Yelig-nar. 

 

I think the theory that each Unmade+Champion corresponds to an order/Herald is possible, but we still lack a lot of key information at this point for me to be fully on board with this.

 

Here's a thought I had while reading what some other people were saying in this thread. We're pretty sure that the more Odium invests in the Roshar system the harder it is for him to leave. It's implied that for him to leave he has to win a Desolation. So he probably has been trying to win a Desolation while investing the least amount possible, and with each new Desolation he would probably invest just a little bit more of his power. Now let's assume for a second that there really were 9 previous Desolations, each more deadly than the last. In what way could a Desolation be more deadly than the one before? The Unmade. What if in each new Desolation Odium created a new Unmade. And if this is indeed the 10th Desolation then we would have 9 Unmade + the Champion.

 

I don't totally buy in to this theory either, but on the slim chance that some or all of it becomes true I want to be able to say that I called it.

[Oversleep]

I don't know if someone has mentioned it before but I think the disk painting depicts worldhopping:

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A solitary figure hovering above the ground before a large blue disc, arms stretched to the side as if to embrace it.

Now, compare it with similar painting from Elantris:

Spoiler

Quote

 the wall held only a single mural. It depicted a large mirrorlike blue oval. An Elantrian stood facing the oval, his arms outstretched and his eyes closed. He appeared to be flying toward the blue disk. The rest of the wall was black, though there was a large white sphere on the other side of the oval.

“Lake.” The old Elantrian’s voice was quiet but insistent.

“It’s painted sideways,” Karata said. “See, he’s falling into a lake.”

Raoden nodded. The Elantrian in the picture wasn’t flying, he was falling. The oval was the surface of a lake, lines on its sides depicting a shore.

“It’s like the water was considered a gate of some sort,” Galladon said, head cocked to the side.

Coincidence? I think not!

So, I very strongly suspect it's depicting worldhopping.

[Krios]

These chapters had quite the lovecraftian or cthulhuesc feel to it with all the smoke, darkness and approximation of animals and humans.

My theory on why Shallan and Renarin can sense the weirdness, but not Dalinar is the powerlevel of the spren. Both Shallan and Renarin bonded pretty normal run-of-the-mill spren. Where as Dalinar bonded the spren of the Almight, a being far more powerfull than most others. So maybe the ability to feel the unmade is similar to a beetle in a spidernet, a feeling of "I should not be here", where as Dalinar would be the human, who just sweeps away the net without noticing it.