[OB] Dalinar's Curse/Boon

[Lidolas]

I think a big clue that hasn't been discussed much is the fact that for now, he can only remember the first part of their relationship.  I have a couple ideas of why this could happen.

1.  Although I wasn't a fan of the "Navani is his wife now" theory, I think this is a good indicator it might be correct.  As his relationship with Navani progresses, his memories of Evi will fill in.  

2.  Maybe for whatever reasons; his love life, his world-saving responsabilities, his Nahel bond, etc. he will no longer be pained by the earlier memories of Evi.  When more memories won't pain him anymore, they'll return.

 

[Asrael]

I might have mentioned this earlier, but the way Dalinar talks about his Nightwatcher visit in this weeks chapters makes me think he is wrong about what his curse is.

ON that note, I'd like to be the first to insert my suspicion that his actual curse is in some way related to Navani. I just think it's a little suspicious how vivid his memories of Navani are when contrasted with how obscured his memories of Evi have been. I'm sticking my neck out to suspect that his memory/relationship with Navani was altered by the Nightwatcher. If my suspicion is right, that would lead to some crazy dramatic stuff in this book.

[Farnsworth]

On 10/11/2017 at 7:05 PM, Calderis said:

A5) Urithiru is located just north of the Valley. He's in close enough proximity to the Nightwatcher that she has, for some reason, decided to remove her gifts. 

I’m with this, by with one difference. I don’t think it has anything to do with Valley, I just think that the Nightwatcher decided to take back what she’d done. The Nightwatcher does whatever she wants, and we don’t fully understand her. I mean, look at what she’s done to Mr T! 

[Yata]

3 hours ago, Farnsworth said:

I’m with this, by with one difference. I don’t think it has anything to do with Valley, I just think that the Nightwatcher decided to take back what she’d done. The Nightwatcher does whatever she wants, and we don’t fully understand her. I mean, look at what she’s done to Mr T! 

I don't believe the NW could lift (pun intended) the Old Magic's effect and much more I am quite sure It's not something She could do remotely.

[Beamup]

An idea struck me re-reading the last trio of chapters.  Dalinar is just so different between the flashbacks and the present, there may well be more going on there than just changing course as a response to traumatic events (which is basically how he describes it himself).  And the impression I get from the flashbacks is that the old Dalinar (i.e. the Blackthorn) would've absolutely hated the person he is now.  Thought of becoming such a person as a curse, in fact.

[NinjaAlligators]

First of all, I firmly believe that Dalinar's Problem of Evi is (was?) an active, ongoing effect.  I somewhat more hesitantly believe that the effect is Spiritual (rather than Cognitive or Physical) in nature.  

As a few others have pointed out, the most striking part of the issue is that in addition to his loss of past memories, Dalinar is/was being actively prevented from hearing his wife's name or seeing her face--which is especially interesting because he knew she was blond, he heard Navani describe her as not terribly bright and as someone that Dalinar loved.  In other words, some information about her was being blocked, but not all.  Perhaps the parts being blocked were those most tied to his emotional response toward Evi?  If the damage were purely neurological, I would not expect her name and her hair color to be so clearly distinguished by the Old Magic.  I think the most likely way the Old Magic could accomplish the effect we have observed from what we already know is to suppress his Connection to Evi--a suppression not accomplished by excising a piece of the Spiritweb, but by adding a foreign piece--a plug, so to speak, of Investiture(?) that actively dampens the Connection, ensuring that he does not re-Connect with her.  I hypothesize that this is consistent with what we have seen of other recipients of the Old Magic, namely Taravangian, Lift and Av's father and brother.  

When Av's father sought out the Old Magic, he received a Physical boon--a "heap of good cloth".  This indicates that the boon granted by the Nightwatcher is not necessarily the same (Realmatically) every time.  Did she Soulcast the cloth out of air or stone?  Did she happen to have cloth on hand from a previous client?  We don't know enough of the story.  However, it does demonstrate that what the Nightwatcher does isn't necessarily limited to messing with peoples' heads.  On the other hand, she causes him to perceive the world upside down, which to me sounds like a Cognitive effect.  However, Av's brother came back with two permanently numb hands--an effect that sounds suspiciously similar to the effect of being cut by a Shardblade, which in turn suggests that his hands were separated from his Spiritweb.  It is possible that this effect could be accomplished Cognitively, I would imagine, but there is a clear mechanism for it to happen Spiritually, so that is a possibility.  

Taravangian's effect, his intelligence and empathy fluctuating in a random and inversely proportionate relationship, appears to me to be more clearly Spiritual in nature: many have noted the similarity to Feruchemy (though I think it uses a different mechanic, because diminishing returns would prevent days like that of the Diagram, and because it is very doubtful that Taravangian could have "stored" enough intelligence on his stupidest days to "tap" on the day of the Diagram), and Feruchemy is primarily Spiritual in nature.  

Lift is an especially interesting case, particularly since her observed powers have little to no obvious correlation with the request that she actually made of the Nightwatcher--she really is growing and getting older, whereas she expected her aging to halt.  To cease aging is an attainable effect--we know now that age is actually a Spiritual attribute, one that is, in fact, modifiable through known means (Feruchemical atium) and though...less known means (Cosmere "immortality" that we know exists from WoB).  If the Nightwatcher is as powerful as we all believer her to be, as powerful as the Stormfather at least, she almost certain has the power (the sheer quantity of Investiture and knowledge of the necessary techniques) to produce that effect.  However, Lift does not presently show that effect, which means that either 1. The Nightwatcher was unable to give her that effect for reasons unrelated to her power level (i.e. as a force of Cultivation she finds it difficult to make things static, just as Honor would struggle with breaking a promise), or 2. Lift did receive that effect, and later lost it, just as Dalinar seems to be regaining his memories of Evi.  Either way, while Lift's...condition...does manifest in how she interacts with the Cognitive Realm, the change to her has to include Spiritual components since it has impacted the way she can obtain Investiture itself.  

With this in mind, I believe that whatever was happened that caused Dalinar to begin remembering Evi, I would expect it to be something with Spiritual impact, and something capable of specifically removing the "plug" blocking his connection to Evi.  If merely using Stormlight was enough to expel the plug, which I consider possible, then the amount of Investiture used for the plug must have been relatively small.  However, I doubt this somewhat, if only because the Old Magic is normally permanent, unlike other Spiritually based magics that produce such dramatic effects (Feruchemy and especially Soulforging). I think it is more likely that either his remembering was tied to an unexpected interaction, such as his held Stormlight overfeeding the pain fabrial, or more likely due to the wording of his boon/bane itself.  

As some others have suggested, I am very tempted to think that his request was not related to Evi directly.  I find it very curious that the Nighwatcher allowed Dalinar to collect even as much information as he had about her--he could have been curious, could have imagined her based on physical descriptions, perhaps?  Would those images have slipped away from him, even if they did not look much like her actual appearance?  I suspect his loss of Connection to her was based on some other request: that he requested to have Navani, or to become a good person.

 I think the goal of what the Nightwatcher did to him is not to erase Evi completely--he is able to put far too much together for that--but to erase her emotional impact on him.  He is free to know that she was blond, or 5'10" tall, etc, because this does not allow him to form an emotional bond with her.  Her name, her face, these things are too evocative, and thus the Old Magic suppresses them.   

All in all, I'm looking forward to seeing what new clues and new questions tomorrow's new chapters will bring us!

 

[paperstones]

I think it has everything to do with him being the Blackthorn and he associates her with his time as such. Him regaining the Blackthorn persona could also connect in with the Diagram and how it states Mr. T could ally with him and not the peacemaker. 

[Calderis]

26 minutes ago, NinjaAlligators said:

When Av's father sought out the Old Magic, he received a Physical boon--a "heap of good cloth".  This indicates that the boon granted by the Nightwatcher is not necessarily the same (Realmatically) every time.  Did she Soulcast the cloth out of air or stone?  Did she happen to have cloth on hand from a previous client?  We don't know enough of the story.  However, it does demonstrate that what the Nightwatcher does isn't necessarily limited to messing with peoples' heads.  On the other hand, she causes him to perceive the world upside down, which to me sounds like a Cognitive effect.  However, Av's brother came back with two permanently numb hands--an effect that sounds suspiciously similar to the effect of being cut by a Shardblade, which in turn suggests that his hands were separated from his Spiritweb.  It is possible that this effect could be accomplished Cognitively, I would imagine, but there is a clear mechanism for it to happen Spiritually, so that is a possibility.  

We received word of this boon secondhand. While I fully believe Av's Father came home with cloth, and it may well be that it was as a result of his boon, I don't believe for a moment that his boon was the physical cloth itself. 

Every effect of the Nightwatcher we have actually seen in the three characters we know can be explained through a Cognitive effect, whether in the mind with Dalinar and Taravangian, or a shift in the focus of where they are between realms in lifts case (she can touch Wyndel, and was able to see the improper connection of Szeth's soul to his body in Edgedancer, which seems to have made her a more heavily Cognitive entity than a normal human, much like the Parshendi, and their ability to see spren more easily than humans).

There's no proof that this is correct, but based off this WoB, I don't believe that Av's Father was honest about what his boon was.

Quote

Cheese Ninja

Nightwatcher's curses all appear to be neurological in effect, are the boons limited in any particular manner?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Every effect of the Nightwatcher we have actually seen in the three characters we know can be explained through a Cognitive effect, Dalinar and Taravangian, or a shift in the focus of where they are between realms in Lift's case.

Speaking of Lift, have we ever tried explaining Food into Investiture under the "Cognitive Concept" we've ascribed to the Old Magic?

Quote

Interview: Sep 23rd, 2016
Out of Excuses 2016 (Paraphrased)

Gary Singer

Could Lift convert food from other Cosmere worlds into Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Lift’s spiritweb has something changed about it to allow converting mass to Investiture directly.

---

Interview: Dec 3rd, 2016
Little City Books-AU Tour (Paraphrased)

CCQ

If Lift didn't get what she wanted from Nightwatcher (to stop aging) what did she get?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO but it has to do with why she can metabolize food into Stormlight.

[Blacksmithki]

You naturally see the world upside down, a part of your brain flips the image, that could be physical or cognitive or spiritual. Lift is partially in the cognitive, pretty clear what realm that is... Tarvagian is again a brain thing that could plausibly be any of the three. Dalinar's memory could be any of the three and the active effect is most likly C or S. All of them can more or less be cognitive and most of them can be the other two realms.

[fyodor]

I can say with confidence that whatever Dalinar's boon/cost was, it wasn't only forgetting his wife, simply since we wouldn't have Dalinar making that assumption if it were true. If I had to guess, it has something to do with the drastic difference we see between OG Dalinar and present-day Dalinar.

[Zaineph]

I was tempted to start a new thread for this theory that literally just came to me after chapter 27.

There was some speculation in a discussion about Oathbringer's author being Evi and that she didn't really die. Personally I quite like this idea, but it got me thinking about what Dalinar said about his visit to the Nightwatcher. I can't remember the exact wording but basically he said that his memory was quite hazy on the whole incident. Why is this? Also, despite previous statements, he seemed not to be aware of the other affect the Nightwatcher gave him, be it boon or curse, but states that they are somewhat linked.

So my theory is that Dalinar isn't actually the one who requested anything from the Nightwatcher, perhaps it was Evi that went visited the Nightwatcher and as a result something happened to Dalinar as a curse for Evi?

To be honest I'm not entirely sure this holds up and would appreciate your thoughts.

[Goomblast]

Hello everyone I have a hypotesis of what the boon might be that I haven't seen discussed. 

Dalinars boon is to not be king. It fits with the timeline for when the memories start to come back, and we have multiple times seen him think he shouldn't be king. What do you all think? 

Long time lurker first time posting.

[Blacksmithki]

2 hours ago, Zaineph said:

I was tempted to start a new thread for this theory that literally just came to me after chapter 27.

There was some speculation in a discussion about Oathbringer's author being Evi and that she didn't really die. Personally I quite like this idea, but it got me thinking about what Dalinar said about his visit to the Nightwatcher. I can't remember the exact wording but basically he said that his memory was quite hazy on the whole incident. Why is this? Also, despite previous statements, he seemed not to be aware of the other affect the Nightwatcher gave him, be it boon or curse, but states that they are somewhat linked.

So my theory is that Dalinar isn't actually the one who requested anything from the Nightwatcher, perhaps it was Evi that went visited the Nightwatcher and as a result something happened to Dalinar as a curse for Evi?

To be honest I'm not entirely sure this holds up and would appreciate your thoughts.

This sort of falls apart due to then Dalinar would have three effects upon him, one of which (I think you are suggesting the memory loss) would not fit in, he would distinctly know something was wrong from the timing. Also, there is no precedent whatsoever of the night watcher effecting a third party directly AND Evi would have to not be dead.

@Goomblast Good idea, but it doesn't work so well when you consider the fact that for him to be king the entire line of succession would need to die or give up the throne AND he could just choose to not take the throne and give it to whoever is behind him (Adolin at the time). Welcome to (the forum? Posting?) though! These chapters bring out a fair few new people to posting, not including me you are the fourth or fifth I've seen.

[Darkness]

12 hours ago, Goomblast said:

Hello everyone I have a hypotesis of what the boon might be that I haven't seen discussed. 

Dalinars boon is to not be king. It fits with the timeline for when the memories start to come back, and we have multiple times seen him think he shouldn't be king. What do you all think? 

Long time lurker first time posting.

Welcome out from the shadowlands

Unfortunately, I have to mention that Elhokar has made Dalinar the de facto King of Urithiru under the High King Elhokar, so he is on the path to becoming a king.

But of course if the Nightwatcher meant only 'never King of Alethkar' then that is still viable. Remember though, for all we know the Nightwatcher gives what she sees fit, not necessarily what is requested by the petitioner.

[fyodor]

I think Goomblast's point is that his boon was to never be king. Now that it has failed, he's been refunded his "curse" (loss of memory of his wife).

To expound, maybe the Nightwatcher can't actually control politics, but she can change his personality to make him less ambitious, power hungry etc, which explains his personality shift. It wasn't enough, with changed circumstances, to keep him from becoming King, so his "curse" is dissipating too.

[+tabitreader]

I see it like this.

BOON: Deleted memories, relief of grief

CURSE: Memories shall return when Cultivation knows he needs to deal with them.

[aurik]

I'm not going to spoil anything in this thread.  However, I will say the answer IS in Oathbringer.  Both what he asked for and what he got.  We also have a pretty good understanding as to WHY his memories began returning.

 

In some ways it's so simple.  In other ways it will blow your mind.