[OB] Dalinar's Curse/Boon

[Tai'shar-Malkier]

The biggest argument I could see for stormlight healing bring the cause of the return of dalinar's memories of his wife is that stormlight heals a person to their spiritual ideal. This is why kaladin's slave brands didn't heal from stormlight. When dalinar heard his wife's name, he felt as if he should know it, and so he was healed. This isn't a perfect theory I admit, and I'm not sold on it completely, but at first glance this was my thought

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Tai'shar-Malkier said:

The biggest argument I could see for stormlight healing bring the cause of the return of dalinar's memories of his wife is that stormlight heals a person to their spiritual ideal. This is why kaladin's slave brands didn't heal from stormlight. When dalinar heard his wife's name, he felt as if he should know it, and so he was healed. This isn't a perfect theory I admit, and I'm not sold on it completely, but at first glance this was my thought

Kaladin's spiritual ideal does not have his brands. Stormlight does not heal them because cognitively he has accepted them, and what they mean, as a part of who he is. 

The moment he stops thinking of himself as a dangerous man bound to serve the will of others, the Cognitive block will cease, and he will be able to heal his scars. 

[Asrael]

One thing I feel is not being treated clearly: Dalinar's inability to remember his wife must be strictly a magical barrier. If it was a physical 'wound' in any sense, there is no scientific explanation I've heard of that would make him unable to hear her name or look at a painting of her. Maybe that's obvious, but I see comments here and there that suggest otherwise. So my best guess is the nature of his boon/curse can only be removed magically, and I'm unconvinced basic stormlight healing cuts the mustard.

Another point I think is interesting is this: based on what I've come to expect from Brandon, we have most likely already seen Dalinar's boon/curse in action (the not Evi one). Which means its staring us in the face O.O

 

PS. I'm of the opinion Evi was his boon. We know that the loss of his wife was a heavy memory, and it seems to me to fit dramatically that he would seek to forget her. Can't wait to find out though

Edited October 16, 2017 by Asrael

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Asrael said:

One thing I feel is not being treated clearly: Dalinar's inability to remember his wife must be strictly a magical barrier. If it was a physical 'wound' in any sense, there is no scientific explanation I've heard of that would make him unable to hear her name or look at a painting of her. Maybe that's obvious, but I see comments here and there that suggest otherwise. So my best guess is the nature of his boon/curse can only be removed magically, and I'm unconvinced basic stormlight healing cuts the mustard.

This. So much this. 

1 minute ago, Asrael said:

Another point I think is interesting is this: based on what I've come to expect from Brandon, we have most likely already seen Dalinar's boon/curse in action (the not Evi one). Which means its staring us in the face O.O

Absolutely. It's going to be one of those things that we face-palm for not catching earlier. 

[Asrael]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Absolutely. It's going to be one of those things that we face-palm for not catching earlier. 

Been rereading Way of Kings and I'm wondering slightly if his other "gift" has anything to do with Navani. As he seems to have always had the hots for her pretty badly maybe that's a dead end, but I expect something with great story/character significance.

[lastofus]

When I first read the book, I had a feeling that Dalinar asked the Nightwatcher to heal in anyway possible. I don't remember now when and where I got this idea. 

I thought it is about Renarin's birth, maybe she had a difficult one or something like that. But I don't know when the death occured and how old Adolin and Renarin were at that time. Adolin talks about Navani and Jasnah but says nothing about how her mother helped shape him. The only thing that Adolin has is his mother's chain.

So I think she was pregnant with her when all of it happened and Dalinar wanted to save their child. The curse is forgetting the mother, the boon is Renarin surviving the childhood.

And I am with the camp that believes Dalinar never took that amount of Stormlight til now. He wanted his Radiants to practice, but the only thing that he himself did was re-visiting the visions at will, nothing more.

[Blacksmithki]

@asrael the only part of Dalinar's memory issues that would require ongoing magic would be his inability to see images at any given moment, the rest could be accomplished by damage to his short and long term memory related to her making him incapable of seeing or remembering Evi at any point other then the exact moment he sees a picture or hears her name, and the hearing part is even questionable because by the time he registers hearing her name it would be a part of short term memory, except it wouldn't be there to access.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, lastofus said:

And I am with the camp that believes Dalinar never took that amount of Stormlight til now. He wanted his Radiants to practice, but the only thing that he himself did was re-visiting the visions at will, nothing more.

And as I keep saying, the first time Dalinar intentionally takes in Stormlight above Urithiru, he talks about how familiar it feels. He wonders how long he's been doing it without realizing. 

Even if he hadn't pulled in that much Stormlight before, if he's been doing this for any length of time, Stormlight should have healed him well before this. 

We see the immortal words spark in his mind way back in tWoK, and the same happened with Kaladin well after we saw him start using Stormlight. 

[Salkara]

33 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And as I keep saying, the first time Dalinar intentionally takes in Stormlight above Urithiru, he talks about how familiar it feels. He wonders how long he's been doing it without realizing. 

Even if he hadn't pulled in that much Stormlight before, if he's been doing this for any length of time, Stormlight should have healed him well before this. 

We see the immortal words spark in his mind way back in tWoK, and the same happened with Kaladin well after we saw him start using Stormlight. 

Yes, but what he feels familiarity with is the healing of an injury received in battle. Presumably, previous instances of stormlight healing always targeted physical injuries first and didn't gave enough left to heal his memory.

Dalinar may have been using stormlight to heal for some time, but he's never held enough for it to be visible. It's possible that at least some aspects of stormlight healing are quantized. By that, I mean you either have enough to heal or you don't heal at all (e.g. no half-healing). This doesn't seem to be the case with injuries in the physical realm, but the cognitive and spiritual realms are different. It could be that a wounded Connection can't be repaired with micro-healings.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Salkara said:

Yes, but what he feels familiarity with is the healing of an injury received in battle. Presumably, previous instances of stormlight healing always targeted physical injuries first and didn't gave enough left to heal his memory.

That's not the way Stormlight healing works. If there is a wound that it can heal, it targets them all equally. Hence why Shallan's hand didn't fully heal because of the drunkenness. 

If he held Stormlight to heal his physical wounds, it would have been healing his memories at the same time. 

And I disagree that it is a wound in the first place. The continuation of the effect blocking new memories being formed says it was an active effect, not an existing wound. 

Edited October 16, 2017 by Calderis

[The Invested Beard]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That's not the way Stormlight healing works. If there is a wound that it can heal, it targets them all equally. Hence why Shallan's hand didn't fully heal because of the drunkenness. 

If he held Stormlight to heal his physical wounds, it would have been healing his memories at the same time. 

And I disagree that it is a wound in the first place. The continuation of the effect blocking new memories being formed says it was an active effect, not an existing wound. 

 

[Blacksmithki]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That's not the way Stormlight healing works. If there is a wound that it can heal, it targets them all equally. Hence why Shallan's hand didn't fully heal because of the drunkenness. 

If he held Stormlight to heal his physical wounds, it would have been healing his memories at the same time. 

And I disagree that it is a wound in the first place. The continuation of the effect blocking new memories being formed says it was an active effect, not an existing wound. 

The thing is, the part of the curse/boon that deals with memories could be purely physical, just am age or destroy or seperate the neurons and whatnot related to Evi, the only part requiring anything other then one time damage would be effecting him at the instant he sees Evi or hears her name, any point past that can be done with targeted damage to the brain.

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

The thing is, the part of the curse/boon that deals with memories could be purely physical, just am age or destroy or seperate the neurons and whatnot related to Evi, the only part requiring anything other then one time damage would be effecting him at the instant he sees Evi or hears her name, any point past that can be done with targeted damage to the brain.

And my point is, why wasn't the previous damage already healed if physical, even in part? And what stopped the effect from continuing? Stormlight healing does not explain this to me. At all

[Blacksmithki]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

And my point is, why wasn't the previous damage already healed if physical, even in part? And what stopped the effect from continuing? Stormlight healing does not explain this to me. At all

If I remember correctly all cosmere healing works the same correct? We know that healing prioritizes from Bands of mourning and Wayne's "spoiled tomato" and what could possibly be lower priority then something with no present effect whatsoever on the body? Also how is it possible to see yourself as himself as injuried when he only sees himself as missing a memory, or in other words, Forgetting something. (A natural process), however, anything that prevents him from hearing Evi's name at any given moment could be doing damage to his capacity to register her name, an actual issue.

a second option, the "spiritual template" healing works off of, wouldn't have memories, those would have to be filtered in by the cognitive, meaning that how can he gain those memories without a trigger (hearing Evi), the way memories work that would attempt to form a connection to every one of his memories of her, fail, fix the issue (stormlight) then the second time he heard her name (when he told navani to repeat it), trigger a new connection to each of those memories. (Hence them not coming to mind the first time he heard her name, cosmere healing is not quite instant, but fast on such a small scale as neurons)

[Asrael]

26 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

The thing is, the part of the curse/boon that deals with memories could be purely physical, just am age or destroy or seperate the neurons and whatnot related to Evi, the only part requiring anything other then one time damage would be effecting him at the instant he sees Evi or hears her name, any point past that can be done with targeted damage to the brain.

Having it part physical part magical doesn't make sense OR fit with what we've seen. He has regained memory AND heard his wife's name when he shouldn't be able to. If the former were only physical damage then is the magic that suppresses any sound or image related to her just not able to block his thoughts? That seems like a really weird loophole. But again we've already seen both aspects lifted. 

 

I think its overly complex to suggest that the nightwatcher damaged his brain and put a magical filter in what he can see or hear. Much simpler (conceptually) to just magically filter all perception of his wife internal or external.

 

For these reasons I am strongly opposed to the idea that stormlight is the cause of the return of his ability to perceive his wife.

[Blacksmithki]

12 minutes ago, Asrael said:

Having it part physical part magical doesn't make sense OR fit with what we've seen. He has regained memory AND heard his wife's name when he shouldn't be able to. If the former were only physical damage then is the magic that suppresses any sound or image related to her just not able to block his thoughts? That seems like a really weird loophole. But again we've already seen both aspects lifted. 

 

I think its overly complex to suggest that the nightwatcher damaged his brain and put a magical filter in what he can see or hear. Much simpler (conceptually) to just magically filter all perception of his wife internal or external.

 

For these reasons I am strongly opposed to the idea that stormlight is the cause of the return of his ability to perceive his wife.

To the first part, thinking of something requires knowing it, that requires remembering it, to part two, it could be only physical by means of modification of the part of his brain responsible for the processing of Evi as well as everything i said.

I get the sense that this is going to go on, so what exactly do you feel that the stormlight theory needs to answer before you see it as plausible?

[Asrael]

17 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

To the first part, thinking of something requires knowing it, that requires remembering it, to part two, it could be only physical by means of modification of the part of his brain responsible for the processing of Evi as well as everything i said.

I get the sense that this is going to go on, so what exactly do you feel that the stormlight theory needs to answer before you see it as plausible?

Lol, essentially for Oathbringer to confirm it :P. If it proves true I will accept it without complaint. Or perhaps if we see any examples of stormlight healing something similar (I wouldn't consider restoring a severed soul limb similar). 

 

To your point, I don't think that there is a part of his brain responsible for processing Evi. For that to be remotely plausible to me you'd have to be suggesting that first his brain remembers her, then brings her to mind then fuzzes stuff out. And even if that's the case, that's some weeeeeiiird Jon science brain chemistry going on. I prefer the simple explanation that Dalinar has some block on have cognitive aspect, or has Connection to Evi or both. (Edit: perhaps the reason that the physical explanation bothers me is that I think explaining it within the narrative would be clunky as heck)

 

All in all though... I can't wait for the next Dalinar pov to actually give us some real data points.

[Blacksmithki]

33 minutes ago, Asrael said:

Lol, essentially for Oathbringer to confirm it :P. If it proves true I will accept it without complaint. Or perhaps if we see any examples of stormlight healing something similar (I wouldn't consider restoring a severed soul limb similar). 

 

To your point, I don't think that there is a part of his brain responsible for processing Evi. For that to be remotely plausible to me you'd have to be suggesting that first his brain remembers her, then brings her to mind then fuzzes stuff out. And even if that's the case, that's some weeeeeiiird Jon science brain chemistry going on. I prefer the simple explanation that Dalinar has some block on have cognitive aspect, or has Connection to Evi or both. (Edit: perhaps the reason that the physical explanation bothers me is that I think explaining it within the narrative would be clunky as heck)

 

All in all though... I can't wait for the next Dalinar pov to actually give us some real data points.

Sorry if I was unclear, what I am saying is two parts, first, physical memory loss, simple enough. Two, when he sees or hears her her name, the brain has been modified so that when that happens, instead of working as if he saw/heard her, it works as if he heard Shshsh or saw a blur respectively. I'm no Neurologist but to the extent of my knowledge that is how the brain functions, you have a part of your memories for everything and draw new connections to them every time it's relevant. (You connect your friend's face to some party if you see him there as well as to that house and to whatever you were doing) I just view the brain as a ridiculously complex computer program and to the extent of my knowledge it is, so I just see it as replacing two variables with different values.

also, I meant in essence what do you see as the largest flaws in this whole theory.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Blacksmithki

[Asrael]

19 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

Sorry if I was unclear, what I am saying is two parts, first, physical memory loss, simple enough. Two, when he sees or hears her her name, the brain has been modified so that when that happens, instead of working as if he saw/heard her, it works as if he heard Shshsh or saw a blur respectively. I'm no Neurologist but to the extent of my knowledge that is how the brain functions, you have a part of your memories for everything and draw new connections to them every time it's relevant. (You connect your friend's face to some party if you see him there as well as to that house and to whatever you were doing) I just view the brain as a ridiculously complex computer program and to the extent of my knowledge it is, so I just see it as replacing two variables with different values.

So the reason that feels implausible/overly-complex to me is that I don't see any reason why his physical brain just couldn't start a new little neuron-cluster or whatever for new information about her. Having two, distinct, complex, physical alterations to his brain is too bizarre and out there for me to accept. 

So imagine the scene where they try to explain what happened. The explanation requires knowledge of brain physiology and chemistry that a) I'm quite confident these characters don't have, and b ) I don't want to slog through. The other alternative is that from the POV of the characters we never get an explanation, which would violate everything I've come to expect from BS.

Additionally (now that I'm at an actual computer):
* Have we seen a curse/boon lifted by stormlight before? Lift seems to have no trouble using stormlight and having a curse/boon. So that really would stretch plausibility.
* If not, have we seen a similar ailment fixed by stormlight? Again, I don't think restoring limbs severed spiritually is the same thing, and I can't think of another example. So no.
* Do we have good reason to believe this is the first time Dalinar has used stormlight? I don't think so. I would be surprised (admittedly only a bit) if Dalinar did what he did to Kadash without ever having tried out his powers before.
* Well maybe Dalinar has only used small amounts? I agree with @Calderis on this. We've seen no evidence of controlled, directed, stormlight healing. So if we want to suggest that this was a big "wound" that only just now is completely healed, or enough for him to remember things... that would require a physical wound to make any sense and I think I've made clear why I dislike the idea. If we want to suggest he has in fact been gradually healing his memory, show me evidence that he has been regaining memory. Like a prior passage where Dalinar hears stuff you think ought to be fuzzed out


My doubt of the stormlight theory has to do with what I've come to expect from Brandon. Good, engaging writing; big WOW moments that are just as simple as they are plausible and surprising. Healing by stormlight seems implausible based on what I've read, even though it's a fairly "simple" explanation. The best explanation I've seen so far which seems to fit the things I know is that Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather, in many ways a parallel to the Nightwatcher.

Even then, based on my experience with the past 12 or so Sanderson books I've read is that the explanation is going to wow me with how simple, plausible, and probably totally surprising it will be. Despite my best efforts, I have yet to best him on any actually significant plot point... grrrr.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Asrael

[ParadoxicalZen]

All boon/curse related phenomena has been Cognitive in nature no? (You could argue the guy that couldn't feel his hands was physical but it didn't say he can't move them, just that he can't feel them, much in the way alcohol numbs sensation). And all instances of Stormlight healing have shown to heal only Physical injuries (or restoring Spiritual Connections in the case of the Blade cuts) and not cognitive ones, like restoring you to the Spiritual Ideal of Human; prime examples being Shallan and Szeth, who both have more than than their fair share of mental scars but Stormlight healed their physical injuries.

Given that the Nightwatcher is to Cultivation as the Stormfather is to Honour, and we know that the Stormfather embodies oathkeeping (Honour, essentially) I would argue that the Nightwatcher cares for cultivating certain traits/things/ideals/ideas in those that come to her. As she gives you what she thinks you need and not what you want/ask for, I would venture that perhaps she laces the boon/curse with a condition/lesson that can be met, as a sign of progression from when you first asked; a condition/lesson that once fulfilled (by fulfilling the purpose intended/cultivating whatever it was) undoes the cognitive rewiring, as seen with Dalinar. (It would be an entirely optional thing).

Slight season 5 Once Upon A Time spoilers

Like that episode of Once Upon A Time, where Meridah's Father goes to see the witch to ensure his people's future. The witch uses a similar method to help Meridah understand what it means to be a leader/Queen, hence ensuring his people's future

Edited October 16, 2017 by ParadoxicalZen

[Calderis]

As @Asrael stated, every Nightwatcher effect we've seen has been Cognitive in nature. Whether it appears neurological, or Lift's shift into the Cognitive Realm.

No Cosmere healing has shown any capacity to heal anything Cognitive. The Cognitive has only ever shown as a limitation to the healing process. 

So for me to believe that Stormlight is the cause, would require it to be explicitly stated in book. Otherwise it contradicts everything we've been shown to date. 

[Salkara]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

That's not the way Stormlight healing works. If there is a wound that it can heal, it targets them all equally. Hence why Shallan's hand didn't fully heal because of the drunkenness. 

If he held Stormlight to heal his physical wounds, it would have been healing his memories at the same time. 

And I disagree that it is a wound in the first place. The continuation of the effect blocking new memories being formed says it was an active effect, not an existing wound. 

I thought it had been stated elsewhere (MB Era 2?) that cosmere healing doesn't happen in parrallel, it happens in series? I.e. Healing the most pressing injuries is given priority. I could be wrong and don't have time to look it up just yet.

As for whether it's a wound or not... isn't that what we're debating? I think it's more of a spiritual wound (e.g. wounded Connection) than a physical wound (e.g. severed limb), but if you thought of it as a wound, you'd probably also think stormlight could heal it, right?

Hopefully one of us will be proven right (or wrong) in just over 14 hours .

[Blacksmithki]

1 hour ago, Salkara said:

I thought it had been stated elsewhere (MB Era 2?) that cosmere healing doesn't happen in parrallel, it happens in series? I.e. Healing the most pressing injuries is given priority. I could be wrong and don't have time to look it up just yet.

As for whether it's a wound or not... isn't that what we're debating? I think it's more of a spiritual wound (e.g. wounded Connection) than a physical wound (e.g. severed limb), but if you thought of it as a wound, you'd probably also think stormlight could heal it, right?

Hopefully one of us will be proven right (or wrong) in just over 14 hours .

Can't find the chapter, but Wayne and "spoiled tomato" in bands of mourning, it's in series not parallel.

[Salkara]

2 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

Can't find the chapter, but Wayne and "spoiled tomato" in bands of mourning, it's in series not parallel.

Got it. Chapter 17, page 266 of the Kindle version.

Quote

Sensation—and agony—flooded back into him as his metalmind healed his spine, focusing on the worst wounds first.

Question for me is whether the healing is 100% serialized. Does it focus on healing each particles in order, or would it heal multiple parts of the same wounds simultaneously?

Edited October 17, 2017 by Salkara

[Connect]

Could dalinars curse be something to do with the thrill? I dont think he used to get sick when he used it. Now he sees the way he mutilates people on the battle field. Seems like a fitting opposite too. No longer has to live with the memories of a dead wife, but has to experience battle without the mental protection of the thrill. Also he rejected the thrill just before didnt he?Maybe that has somethkng to do with evi coming back as well.