Pattern he/him Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Less than 24 hours and we will know more. Or we don't get any Shallan at all tomorrow... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, Pattern said: Less than 24 hours and we will know more. Or we don't get any Shallan at all tomorrow... Now that would be cruel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aminar Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 50 minutes ago, SLNC said: Now that would be cruel! This week will probably be like 90% Kaladin. But his storyline will get good and then cliffhanger. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 51 minutes ago, SLNC said: Eh. I don't know. In the same chapter, she tells Adolin, that she sees him als "Moral, just and capable" Such a revelation could twist those perceptions and raise doubts, too. We'll just have to see how it plays out. Before discussing probabilities, I'll try to break down the possible scenarios for Shallan herself for Part 1 (there would be more possibilities but I'll keep things simple). Scenario 1: it becomes generally known (public) that Adolin killed Sadeas. Shallan's options would be to support Adolin (perhaps only secrely), reject/condemn him or to stay neutral. I suspect Dalinar would be highly likely to forbid their relationship to continue and I also wouldn't be surprised if Adolin distances himself from Shallan for her own sake. Scenario 2: Shallan privately finds out that Adolin killed Sadeas. Her options would be: keep quiet and pretend that she doesn't know, to break off her relationship with Adolin without saying why, to try to verify the truth with Adolin and reject/condemn him afterwards, to try to verify the truth with Adolin and support him afterwards, or to go public or to tell Adolin to turn himself in. If Scenario 1 happens, I think Shallan's relationship will be officially broken whether she likes it or not. I think her natural curiosity would lead her to continue to investigate the copy-cat murders though (unless they are already resolved). For Scenario 2, I think the least likely option is that she runs to the authorities or tells Adolin to do the same - Shallan's never done something like that as far as I remember. I don't think she'd be able to simply keep quiet and ignore it either - maybe for a few days but it would be stressful to pretend she doesn't know for a long time. She would want to know the truth. For the other options in Scenario 2 I think we first have to judge what Sadeas was to Shallan. We've not seen much from her about him but I wouldn't be surprised if her reaction to his death was rather like Palona's ("one less problem"). To Shallan, Sadeas should be an "antagonist" or "threat" - he has obviously targeted people that she cares about, she herself has made plans to help neutralise him, and she most likely suffered an "attack" from his side herself (with the bridge drop). For the last point, it's never been confirmed that Shallan knows that Sadeas would be the most likely suspect but it would not be surprising (It'll be interesting to see if Shallan raises this with Ialai). Shallan has also heard Adolin's side about Sadeas back in WoR, she saw that Adolin reacted strangely to the 1st copy-cat murder, she saw that he was strangely attached to the idea that the copy-cat murderer was a different person and has since gotten evidence for that, she saw that Adolin was working hard on the case, and she just recently saw that Adolin feels that he hasn't lived up to Dalinar's expectations and is hiding something from her. So, in a way it shouldn't come as a surprise except that so far Shallan's view of Adolin has been rather rose-tinted. If anything she finds him to be annoyingly perfect. The closest equivalent that I can see in Shallan's past would be when Jasnah killed the robbers, with the biggest difference being that Shallan was there and saw the events herself. Shallan was shocked, angry and upset at the time but she got over it - Shallan was practically worshipping Jasnah by the time we got to WoR. Shallan has also become more open with herself about her own past actions since Jasnah killed the robbers. Putting that all together, I would say that Shallan would be shocked but would get over it sooner or later. I would expect her to confront Adolin about it one way or another. Shallan has never felt threatened by Adolin so I think the only way her opinion of him would go negative is if Adolin reacted very badly, which would be very unlike him. In such a scenario I would actually expect Adolin to break down. In the end, I think Shallan's view of Adolin would become less "rose-tinted" but more "real". btw, if Scenario 2 happens in Part 1 I would still expect Scenario 1 to happen sooner or later. Probably around the time Kaladin returns to Urithiru... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark he/him Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 I'm thinking tomorrow we get a follow up with Dalinar, post memory rush, and a Shallan follow up chapter first in line. For the third chapter, I think we are going to see a break from Kaladin until that Highstorm shows up. So the third chapter will go either to Dalinar or Shallan, giving us two of one of them in sequence. I think tomorrow we get Shallan follow up, Dalinar memory results, Dalinar politics/highstorm communications with Stormfather. Having two Shallan chapters is possible, but I don't think as likely. But in that case it would go Shallan-Dalinar-Shallan, but the second Shallan chapter would likely involve Dalinar, Navani and Renarin as well as Adolin and Shallan, as they discuss surrendering Adolin's plate, Shallan and Adolin's investigation and Dalinar's memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 Let's just settle on Shallan receiving a reality check soon, though I kiiiinda assume, that she won't want to accept it. I do agree, that she won't run to the authorities to report Adolin though. 14 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: The closest equivalent that I can see in Shallan's past would be when Jasnah killed the robbers, with the biggest difference being that Shallan was there and saw the events herself. Shallan was shocked, angry and upset at the time but she got over it - Shallan was practically worshipping Jasnah by the time we got to WoR. Shallan has also become more open with herself about her own past actions since Jasnah killed the robbers. I still think, that there is a difference. Firstly, she isn't infatuated (in a romantic way) with Jasnah and, I would argue, that her mental stability was stronger back then. Plus, yes, she worshipped Jasnah for her scholastic ability, but not really for her other world views or morals. (i.e. their completely different views on religion for instance) With Adolin she distinctly sees a few traits, she likes about him (aside from his looks) and exactly these traits are being put under strain by him murdering Sadeas. Quote Putting that all together, I would say that Shallan would be shocked but would get over it sooner or later. I would expect her to confront Adolin about it one way or another. Shallan has never felt threatened by Adolin so I think the only way her opinion of him would go negative is if Adolin reacted very badly, which would be very unlike him. In such a scenario I would actually expect Adolin to break down. In the end, I think Shallan's view of Adolin would become less "rose-tinted" but more "real". Probably, but I'm more worried about Adolin's reaction. I still think, that her first reaction will be shock and anger, which probably will result in Adolin distancing himself. Remember, he sees himself as flawed too and Shallan lashing out against him regarding that, would kinda confirm those fears for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormingTexan he/him Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 3 hours ago, Pattern said: Less than 24 hours and we will know more. Or we don't get any Shallan at all tomorrow... Dalinar flashback, Kaladin and Dalinar. Let's take bets! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 2 hours ago, SLNC said: Let's just settle on Shallan receiving a reality check soon, though I kiiiinda assume, that she won't want to accept it. One way or another, I'm expecting Shallan's and Adolin's relationship to change. 2 hours ago, SLNC said: I still think, that there is a difference. Firstly, she isn't infatuated (in a romantic way) with Jasnah and, I would argue, that her mental stability was stronger back then. Plus, yes, she worshipped Jasnah for her scholastic ability, but not really for her other world views or morals. (i.e. their completely different views on religion for instance) With Adolin she distinctly sees a few traits, she likes about him (aside from his looks) and exactly these traits are being put under strain by him murdering Sadeas. Certainly there's all sorts of differences, some big, some small. "closest equivalent" is the phrase I used after all. I could write all sorts of stuff on how Shallan might reevaluate Adolin, but some of that depends on the specifics of how things unfold and we're close enough to the next release that it's probably better to wait. 2 hours ago, SLNC said: Probably, but I'm more worried about Adolin's reaction. I still think, that her first reaction will be shock and anger, which probably will result in Adolin distancing himself. Remember, he sees himself as flawed too and Shallan lashing out against him regarding that, would kinda confirm those fears for him. Certainly there are all sorts of ways it could go badly. Exactly how Shallan deals with it will depend on the situation. For example, if she finds out during the meeting with Ialai then I think it would be very unlikely that she says anything at the time and it would put massive strain on her (she might need to use "Radiant" to avoid giving herself away, for example), but that might also give her the chance to calm down and think things through before saying anything. If instead she finds out when she and Adolin are alone then she might ask straight away or she might decide to give herself some time to think it over. I think if Shallan compares her experiences with Adolin's she might approach him quite calmly. Or maybe not. But I certainly believe that Shallan has the capacity to decide that Adolin was dealing with difficult circumstances and that Shallan herself might have done the same thing in his shoes. Ideally, I would like to see Shallan confess some of her past deeds to Adolin as part of this (essentially to show that he's not alone in this and that she understands). But that could have the opposite effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbour he/him Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 We will get Kaladin/Shallan/Dalinar or Dalinar/Kaladin/Shallan, or Dalinar/Adolin/Kaladin i feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, Harbour said: We will get Kaladin/Shallan/Dalinar or Dalinar/Kaladin/Shallan, or Dalinar/Adolin/Kaladin i feel. What about Shallan/Dalinar/Adolin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) The shipping wars are really getting out of hand Edited October 16, 2017 by kari-no-sugata 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Technovore he/him Posted October 16, 2017 Report Share Posted October 16, 2017 No Mating 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormingTexan he/him Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 3 hours ago, The Invested Beard said: What about Shallan/Dalinar/Adolin? What?! That’s ludicrous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal she/her Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 11 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: The closest equivalent that I can see in Shallan's past would be when Jasnah killed the robbers, with the biggest difference being that Shallan was there and saw the events herself. Shallan was shocked, angry and upset at the time but she got over it - Shallan was practically worshipping Jasnah by the time we got to WoR. Shallan has also become more open with herself about her own past actions since Jasnah killed the robbers. Great post. I wanted to respond to this part because something occurred to me when I first read it. I feel Shallan's reaction to Adolin murdering Sadeas will be very different than her reaction to Jasnah murdering the thugs. The thugs incident involved Jasnah purposefully seeking individuals, despicable individuals, with the sole intend to murder them. She has no personal feud with those individuals, they never posed a threat to herself nor anyone she is closed to and they would have never attacker her had she not ventured into a recluse part of the city. There was nothing personal in Jasnah killing them, it was purely an exercise of "if you have the means to is it moral to kill known thugs?".At the time, Shallan had also suppressed all memories of herself murdering her parents and, as such, the event triggered a stringent reaction.This is not the case now. Not only Shallan knows and understands how Sadeas has been harming and threatening Adolin's family, she also knows there were few legal options for the Kholins to deal with him, but more importantly, she has now recovered her memories. She sees herself as "a despicable murderer" which she didn't during the Jasnah incident. She states from her own volition she has nothing against "despicable murderers" as long as they do not make a career of it, as long as they are willing to grow, to change. I thus think Shallan's mind frame is very different now and it will able her to view the murder in a whole new perspective. I thus do not think she'll be "angry" over it as she was with Jasnah. I can't see her getting angry at Adolin... She already agreed all relationships needed secrets: she herself hasn't told hers. She can't blame Adolin for something she is guilty of doing. She already knows there is something he hasn't told her, something bothering him, something potentially big. I also can't see her being angry over the fact it was murder: the man has been taunting Adolin and has tried to have his family killed. Needing to kill to protect family members is not only something Shallan understands, it is something she lived. So I am hoping for a denouement where Shallan won't condemn Adolin: enough people will already. 12 hours ago, Pattern said: Less than 24 hours and we will know more. Or we don't get any Shallan at all tomorrow... If anything, Brandon knows how to deliver a climax and, as such, I definitely expect the next chapter to be Shallan or Adolin is Brandon is inclined to write the encounter from his perspective, but I doubt so. Any other character would ruin the pace and break the climax in two: I can't see Brandon doing this. When Kaladin punched Roshone, the very next chapter was his, so I do think it will be the same here. For the other chapters, I wish for either more Shallan or Adolin, this arc will take more than one chapter and Dalinar. No Kaladin: I don't feel we need an update on him, let's wait for the Highstorm to pass. No flashback either, too soon from the last one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, maxal said: I thus think Shallan's mind frame is very different now and it will able her to view the murder in a whole new perspective. I thus do not think she'll be "angry" over it as she was with Jasnah. I can't see her getting angry at Adolin... She already agreed all relationships needed secrets: she herself hasn't told hers. She can't blame Adolin for something she is guilty of doing. She already knows there is something he hasn't told her, something bothering him, something potentially big. I also can't see her being angry over the fact it was murder: the man has been taunting Adolin and has tried to have his family killed. Needing to kill to protect family members is not only something Shallan understands, it is something she lived. So I am hoping for a denouement where Shallan won't condemn Adolin: enough people will already. I must respectfully disagree. Well, I agree that Shallan has changed her mindset and that she probably would see Jasnah's actions in a different light now, but there is a key difference between how she views Jasnah and Adolin. She never had a clear view on Jasnah's morals, with Adolin she has. See, Sanderson specifically conveys to us how Shallan sees Adolin in Chapter 21. "Moral, just, and capable." It never has really been clear for me, but I see that now. Murdering Sadeas in a fit of rage is exactly the opposite of just - and depending on your morals also of them. She herself might have not-so-strict morals and she sees herself as a despicable murderer, but she also has expectations of how Adolin should act... He acted completely different when killing Sadeas. Which is why I'm talking about a reality check. We know that Adolin can be ruthless, but does Shallan? No, she expects differently from him. This is not about condemnation, this is about interrelational expectations, which are about the be put under severe strain. Regarding the secrets thing? Self-quoting me, because I've already covered that: Quote Shallan is right of course. We, as human beings, like familiarity in long-term relationships, but also novelty. Which is why we need mystery in relationships. Though the thing is, that these mysteries are supposed to be bound to the personality of the partner. Not the revelation, that Shallan's partner, who might even marry her, is a murderer, who killed a political rival in a fit of rage. I think, that Shallan simply is misunderstanding Adolin's implications. Regarding the anger thing? I already covered that too: Quote Right, I don't think she might be angry about Adolin killing Sadeas, but she might be angry about his lack of trust in her. She asked twice now and both times Adolin didn't tell her anything. Trust is one of the big pillars of on which a relationship is built. Of course, then there are also the implications with how she murdered her father exactly because he nearly killed her brother in a fit of rage. Lin Davar killed servants on multiple occasions and Shallan's stepmother - because of rage. I just can't shake the feeling, that the revelation of Adolin doing the exact same thing - ruthlessly killing in rage -, reminds her about her father, which will cause her to freak out. Like I said, she expects better of him. Is it unfair? Maybe. But it is the nature of relationships to have expectations of your partner. Even if they aren't fair. Emotions almost never follow rationality. Edited October 17, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morsk he/him Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) edit: post deleted Edited October 25, 2017 by Morsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackYeti he/him Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, SLNC said: Of course, then there are also the implications with how she murdered her father exactly because he nearly killed her brother in a fit of rage. Lin Davar killed servants on multiple occasions and Shallan's stepmother - because of rage. I just can't shake the feeling, that the revelation of Adolin doing the exact same thing - ruthlessly killing in rage -, reminds her about her father, which will cause her to freak out. Like I said, she expects better of him. Is it unfair? Maybe. But it is the nature of relationships to have expectations of your partner. Even if they aren't fair. Emotions almost never follow rationality. I don't agree with this. There is basically no comparison between the actions of Lin Davar, and those of Adolin. They may both have killed in rage, but the context for them is completely different and, of course, context is king (sorry Elhokar ). When Lin killed, whether it be Malise or anyone else, there was no reason behind it: it was completely unjustifiable. It was the product of a sick man who was seemingly coming to feel nothing but the aforementioned rage. Adolin's situation, however, was completely different, for reasons that should be completely obvious at first glance. Sadeas was a mass murderer, one who had tried to have him and his father, along with most of their army, killed, all while wearing the mask of friendship. He then later sent an assassin after them, one who, for a time at least, seemed to have successfully killed Shallan and Kaladin (and did succeed in killing other members of their group). Sadeas has been proven wrong, but he's not going to stop despite that. He's now threatened to continue with his prior actions, and we know that he's not bluffing. He therefore represents a severe and grave threat to both Adolin and everyone that Adolin cares about, which, by extension, threatens the very world itself. And there exists no ligitimate way for Adolin, or anyone else, to deal with that threat. So yes, Adolin is filled with rage at this point, as anyone would be, as anyone should be. This rage is the opposite of Lin Davar's rage: it is entirely justified, and the correct response to the situation. Rage is not an inherently bad thing, after all. So, I don't think it's likely that Shallan will see it in the same terms as her father's murders, especially given that she's undergone Jasnah's training in philosophy. She's to clever (although she often tries not to be) to not realise that two entirely different situations, are in fact, different. With her father, she was in an intolerable situation, with Adolin she is not. Edited October 17, 2017 by BlackYeti 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) @BlackYeti Which is why I alluded to the irrationality of emotions. Your way is the rational way to think about it, but Shallan is traumatized - in part because of her father's actions against house staff, her stepmother and Balat. I'm not entirely convinced, that she will be able to make a completely rational assessment in the situation then. Maybe after a time, but her immediate reaction will probably the one which could make the most damage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trauma_trigger Edited October 17, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 Well, our weekly highstorm is getting close. Will any of my thinking on how the meeting between Shallan, Adolin, Ialai and Mraize will unfold be even slightly correct? It's so hard to predict since the other two are quite mysterious (in my mind) and we don't know what they know. Will the tension be ratcheted up even further? Nervous times Looking further ahead... one thing I've felt a few times is that while Shallan and Adolin are somewhat acting like a "team", Shallan hasn't really warmed up to the other Kholins at Urithiru. I wonder if that will continue through the book. I can imagine some things where Shallan and Dalinar at least will have very different viewpoints unless they change. Shallan is sort of in a different faction, currently. Might that actually become more significant? Or will she properly join Team Kholin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldancer he/him Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 I wonder what way people orient their toilet paper on Roshar 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark he/him Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 Just now, Steeldancer said: I wonder what way people orient their toilet paper on Roshar I wonder if it creates interesting strata in the rocks when they Soulcast it to stone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samaldin he/him Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Steeldancer said: I wonder what way people orient their toilet paper on Roshar Did you bring that up to screw with the "what is the last topic befor the new chapter" statistic? If so well done^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldancer he/him Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 21 minutes ago, Samaldin said: Did you bring that up to screw with the "what is the last topic befor the new chapter" statistic? If so well done^^ Yes. Yes I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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