[OB] Oathbringer 4-6

[Ansalem]

9 minutes ago, vividox said:

Jasnah is an atheist now - but that is a particularly strange position to have when we as readers knows that Honor existed at some point and Honor is nearly synonymous with the Vorin idea of the Almighty. She's going to find out about Honor and Shards and Adonalsium eventually. When she does, it will be impossible to call herself an atheist anymore. She may well be called a heretic in the scope of Vorinism, however. In the same way Dalinar is being called a heretic for claiming the Almighty is dead.

That epigraph could still be a red herring, but I could absolutely see how Jasnah could say something like that after she stumbles upon some Cosmere secrets - or even after her little vacation in Shadesmar. 

Finding out that the Shards and Adonalsium exist would not force her to renounce her atheism. I would be an atheist in the Cosmere knowing everything I know about it. The Shards are not gods, they're essentially just very powerful spren. They didn't create the Cosmere (as far as we know), they're of the Cosmere. And Jasnah has already made this point herself. She agrees that the Almighty might exist but that she simply does not accept him as God. She would say the same of any Shard or Adonalsium itself.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Ansalem

[vividox]

2 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

She's already addressed this:

There is therefore no contradiction in her beliefs with what we know about Honour.

So is the word atheist just being abused here? Because atheist simply means non-belief in gods, not "I acknowledge these things exist but don't worship them".

And it's still possible that Jasnah could be salty about being called a heretic when all she is doing is pursuing the truth. 

[vividox]

5 minutes ago, Ansalem said:

Finding out that the Shards and Adonalsium exist would not force her to renounce her atheism. I would be an atheist in the Cosmere knowing everything I know about it. The Shards are not gods, they're essentially just very powerful spren. They didn't create the Cosmere (as far as we know), they're of the Cosmere. And Jasnah has already made this point herself. She agrees that the Almighty might exist but that she simply does not accept him as God. She would say the same of any Shard or Adonalsium itself.

Gotcha gotcha gotcha. For some reason, the way you stated it here was clearer to me. I'm on board now, carry on. 

[BlackYeti he/him]

3 minutes ago, vividox said:

So is the word atheist just being abused here? Because atheist simply means non-belief in gods, not "I acknowledge these things exist but don't worship them".

And it's still possible that Jasnah could be salty about being called a heretic when all she is doing is pursuing the truth. 

No, because she doesn't consider them to be gods.

I don't consider the computer with which I'm responding to this to be a god, but I accept that it exists. However, if you were to show it to someone who lived centuries ago, they'd likely end up worshipping it as such. I am therefore an atheist with regards to my computer, just as Jasnah is in regards to the Shards.

[Nymeros]

3 hours ago, bleeder said:

So are Dalinar, Shallan, Kaladin, 9 of the Heralds, and countless other characters in Brandon's works.

Such odd comparisons. Shallan is the only of that group who is a murder and Dalinar is none of the above. No one in that group walks around hunky-dory unlike Adolins cheesing self. If he was a woman they could do an episode of Snapped on him......things will change in sure though. Adolin has shown that he can be brave.

[Bcknight2]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Hate to be a downer here, but on the "Shallan is an illusion" thought... 

This could be the case but we know that Radiants have to be in close proximity to their spren to use their powers 

Unless she's still close enough to watch, and is only doing it for practice, I can't fathom how it would be possible. 

She can't just make an illusion in one place and then jaunt off around the rest of the city. 

As far as we've seen, here illusions aren't autonomous. 

IIRC in WoR we learned that Shallan can anchor illusions to Pattern AND give him stormlight to fuel an illusion.

I agree that there would be problems with the illusion acting autonomously... But if the illusion was actually just her disguising someone else (Gaz perhaps) as herself, then presumably it could walk around and perform minor interaction without falling apart as long as Pattern is there to feed it Stormlight... should probably be able to talk too, but Shallan hadn't figured out how to incorporate sound in her illusions yet, right?

As far as your point about Radiants needing to be in close proximity to use their abilities... What proof do we have of the range of this? The only thing I recall is Syl saying she might lose herself when she left Kal for a time, but that was still a fledgling bond. And she didn't lose herself by leaving...

I'm not convinced that Shallan would lose her surgebinding as long as she and pattern were still both in Urithiru.

This ruse still seems pretty unlikely though, given that they're running really low on stormlight...

Though I suppose I could see Shallan trying it as a test to verify she could maintain her two personas simultaneously.

[Calderis he/him]

@Bcknight2 I know there's been more discussion on it and I can't remember where, the only confirmation I can find is how Dalinar and the Stormfather are an exception to this.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1163#7

Quote

QUESTION

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

"close" doesn't tell us the effective range, but I still think she's going to need to at least be in visual range (technically. I don't think a wall between her and the illusion is going to kill it). 

[Pattern he/him]

3 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

That's what it was millennia ago, but it apparently hasn't been that since the Recreance. It isn't that now. It remains to be seen whether it will become that again. Currently, it is a de facto Alethi city, much as the Shattered Plains were a de facto Alethi province, as everyone currently in Urithiru accepts that to be the case.

I heartily disagree. The Alethi are just refugees. If they could establish a rule in Urithiru, perhaps they could establish it as a de-facto province for a short time. As it is, mainly Dalinar's people explore the city and Dalinar organizes an interim administration. Without the Radiants, nobody has access to the city nor can leave it. It would be an Alethi prison at best, a starving ground at worst (no chance that the supplies last a season until the first harvest could be brought in). To call Urithiru an Alethi de-facto province like the Shattered Plains is just wrong. The Alethi are guests at best, thanks to Shallan who brought them there.

Of course at the moment there is no Radiant population worth the name, but it should be clear that Urithiru historically was and also will be associated with the Knights Radiant. There are Oathgates to ten major or formerly major cities all over Roshar. As soon as they are opened, the Alethi won't be the majority of the population anymore. So Dalinar - as the only Bondsmith until now - taking charge in Urithiru makes much more sense than Elhokar. Elhokar would have to be removed as soon as the other nations came in. Situated above Highstorms and the Everstorm, Urithiru will be humanity's bastion against Odium, not just some Alethi city.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Pattern

[Nathrangking he/him]

1 hour ago, Bcknight2 said:

IIRC in WoR we learned that Shallan can anchor illusions to Pattern AND give him stormlight to fuel an illusion.

I agree that there would be problems with the illusion acting autonomously... But if the illusion was actually just her disguising someone else (Gaz perhaps) as herself, then presumably it could walk around and perform minor interaction without falling apart as long as Pattern is there to feed it Stormlight... should probably be able to talk too, but Shallan hadn't figured out how to incorporate sound in her illusions yet, right?

As far as your point about Radiants needing to be in close proximity to use their abilities... What proof do we have of the range of this? The only thing I recall is Syl saying she might lose herself when she left Kal for a time, but that was still a fledgling bond. And she didn't lose herself by leaving...

I'm not convinced that Shallan would lose her surgebinding as long as she and pattern were still both in Urithiru.

This ruse still seems pretty unlikely though, given that they're running really low on stormlight...

Though I suppose I could see Shallan trying it as a test to verify she could maintain her two personas simultaneously.

She would not have to lose her surgebinding for it  to be a problem in WoR it was established that if she so much as left the same room the illusion would unravel. So unless she was nearby there would be no illusion. Practically speaking the limited amount of stormlight which remains in Urithiru would make the sustaining of the illusion for any extended period impossible.

@Pattern I agree. The Alethi are the first to arrive, but as more radiantsmake themselves known more gates will open and more refugees will arrive. I'd put money on Lift soon opening Azimir's oathgate which wikll then reduce any level of authority the Alethi would have. Currently Dalinar is filling Elokhars shoes as the Alethi leader, but as has been stated he is filling the role of bondsmith. That role gives him the power to legislate and exert control over Urithiru. Though his use of Althi power structures is problematic and in time will have to stop. KR are above the mechanations and politics of any single nation though Dalinar has yet to recognize that fact.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Nathrangking

[king of nowhere]

10 hours ago, Darkness said:

Someone mentioned Navani not telling Dalinar about Evi, and implied that there was something shady there, like she had known beforehand or something. I just read it as Navani being smart enough (and having experienced personal tragedy with the 'death' of Jasnah) that she understood it literally wouldn't do any good for Dalinar to hear about his dead wife.

 

Also, is no one going to mention the single pane of glass?! That is a ridiculous improbability! There is no way it would survive that long without breaking, chipping, cracking, turning opaque from grime, etc., without some sort of magical structural engineering that is WAY beyond anything else we've seen. I mean, come on, a single pane?! In seemingly perfect condition? How? Why is everything not made out of this miracle glass? It obviously withstands Highstorms well enough.

As for Navani, Dalinar said that whenever someone pronounces the name of his wife he cannot hear it, and whenever he sees a painting her facce is smudged. It is likely that if navani told him the story of his wife, dalinar would hear nothing of it, or he would forget immediately afterwards anyway. Reminds me of a guy with a mental illness that prevented him from making new memories. He was stuck believing he was in a certain day in 1973, and while you could explain to him that it wasn't the case, he would just forget  in a few minutes.

As for the glass, it is high enough that it is above highstorms, which also means no crem. But yes, it should still be quite dirty. Maybe it is.

10 hours ago, Darkness said:

hmmm... Aluminum is probably way too rare, not sure how you could make it transparent realmatically, and it would probably warp and pit through natural forces.

I figure it's actually based off of a metal sheet, soulcast into glass, and then imbued with modified regrowth and abrasion fabrials, and possibly a few others.

Edit: Aluminum cant be soulcast, forged, or other stuff. It's realmatically inert. The only magical thing I think it can do is be burned by allomancy. That and made into compounds.

Aluminium cn be soulcast. During one of shallan's flashbacks, she was gifted an aluminium necklace, and it was remarked that you could only make aluminium by soulcasting. I wonder who discovered it first, by the way.

9 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Seriously? Adolin may be one of the least cowardly characters in all SA.

D: "You need to go win an assault with half the forces everyone else gets"

A: "On my way"

D: "You need to win an infinite number of duels or our house comes crashing down"

A: "Consider it done"

Like maxal said, any other radiant character has refused to acknowledge past actions for years, but apparently non-radiants have to be 4x more brilliant than radiants to get half the recognition for readers.

I would so much like to upvote this, but out of upvotes. I didn't even realize I used so many today.

7 hours ago, hypatia said:

@WhiteLeeopard

Yes, that's right, but in WoR he wasn't a Bondsmith.

Now he is, his surges should be able to show him a new way - but he doesn't look for his new abilities.

Dalinar himself should do what he said to Renarin.

But all he thinks of are his old ways.

So, how exactly does he unite warring highprinces with his surges? Does he stick them together with adhesion? I don't think it will work

7 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

p.s. do you think we could convince the mods to give us 16 extra upvotes on day of chapter sample release? and maybe another 16 per day the week after OB release? 

Absolutely

4 hours ago, thezec said:

Regarding Evi's death, I don't think Dalinar killed her. The whole scene is described as hostage and vengeance, and a long march full of hatred. I think that when he finally found her he failed to save her, hence the "You are not infallible". From there, consumed by the Thrill, he slaughtered everyone he saw, including unharmed men, children, women related to the kidnapper (Rathalas?) to a degree with shocked even Kadash and drove him to the Ardentia.

Just my opinion, but I see the Thrill and the rampage as a consequence of Evi's death, not a cause.

This should go under SPOILER. It contains details from the thrill. Already the name of shshshsh is revealed like that. By the way, does anybody notice how shshshsh is a good alethi name? very symmetrical if the h can stand for everything in symmetry

4 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

On another note, I will never understand  how some people can read like this on a regular basis, a few chapters at a time is painful!

But knowing that the chapters are out and you haven't read them is more painful, and knowing that everybody on the 17th shard will be speculating on them and you'll be missing the experience of it is even more painful!

Gotta choose the lesser evil

2 hours ago, vividox said:

Jasnah is an atheist now - but that is a particularly strange position to have when we as readers knows that Honor existed at some point and Honor is nearly synonymous with the Vorin idea of the Almighty. She's going to find out about Honor and Shards and Adonalsium eventually. When she does, it will be impossible to call herself an atheist anymore. She may well be called a heretic in the scope of Vorinism, however. In the same way Dalinar is being called a heretic for claiming the Almighty is dead.

That epigraph could still be a red herring, but I could absolutely see how Jasnah could say something like that after she stumbles upon some Cosmere secrets - or even after her little vacation in Shadesmar. 

I read that statement as "they will dismiss what I'm saying because I'm heretic". Of course everybody knows she's an atheist, but it may hurt her academical credibility on roshar. And epigraphs don't need to be red herrings all the time. The letter looked like it came from Hoid, and it really did. Navani's diary was really navani's diary. Sometimes a cow is just a cow.

2 hours ago, vividox said:

So is the word atheist just being abused here? Because atheist simply means non-belief in gods, not "I acknowledge these things exist but don't worship them".

And it's still possible that Jasnah could be salty about being called a heretic when all she is doing is pursuing the truth. 

The concepts of atheism and divinity are ill-defined, as most of the things that we take for granted.

In ancient times, everything with power beyond humans was considered divine. You imagine a guy in the sky throwing lightning, and he's a god, because he is superhuman. Then came the monotheistic religions, with the idea of an all-powerful, all-knowing god. So the superhumans got demoted to just superhumans, saints at most. And one who does believe in superhumans but not in an all-poweerful god can be an atheist.

But in the end what's more defining is the attitude: do you think you should worship something as a god? if not, you're an atheist, even if you believe in an enthity greater than yourself. Tvtropes call this attitude nay-theism

[Ryder]

One thing I thought was interesting that I haven't seen anyone else bring up yet, is that Kaladin punched Roshone for what he did to Moash, not the death of Tien.  I would have expected him to have lashed out because of that, but maybe he feels like he got some closure there when Dalinar rejected Amaram?

[+Spicker]

4 minutes ago, Ryder said:

One thing I thought was interesting that I haven't seen anyone else bring up yet, is that Kaladin punched Roshone for what he did to Moash, not the death of Tien.  I would have expected him to have lashed out because of that, but maybe he feels like he got some closure there when Dalinar rejected Amaram?

He might have also got closure after seeing his parents and apologizing to them. Him remembering Tien fondly right before this is a sign that he might actually be healing from what happened. Not to say that he doesn't blame Roshone for Tien's death still, he just might feel more outrage for Moash and the road of revenge his friend chose.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Spicker
spelling

[soyperson]

2 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Such odd comparisons. Shallan is the only of that group who is a murder and Dalinar is none of the above. No one in that group walks around hunky-dory unlike Adolins cheesing self. If he was a woman they could do an episode of Snapped on him......things will change in sure though. Adolin has shown that he can be brave.

So Dalinar's not a murderer, then?

Edited September 6, 2017 by bleeder

[frozndevl]

9 minutes ago, bleeder said:

Dalinar's not a murderer?

We've only seen him kill in battle, so while that doesn't make him a murderer, he is nonetheless a killer.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

16 minutes ago, Ryder said:

One thing I thought was interesting that I haven't seen anyone else bring up yet, is that Kaladin punched Roshone for what he did to Moash, not the death of Tien.  I would have expected him to have lashed out because of that, but maybe he feels like he got some closure there when Dalinar rejected Amaram?

I think I wrote something...half a dozen pages ago or so . 

Doing it for Moash may show hope for the future. Although I'm half expecting the next chapter to start with a second punch for his family. In any case, in TWoK or WoR (rereading too fast so not sure which) he says the two men who wrecked his life, and that he hates with all he has are Sadeas and Amaram. No mention of Roshone at that point although we had seen what he did already. I think it was on WoR. Roshone, as someone said already, did follow the laws deplorable as they were. Amaram was outright treason/betrayal. Sadeas was beyond inhumane.

Just now, frozndevl said:

We've only seen him kill in battle, so while that doesn't make him a murderer, he is nonetheless a killer.

Wait and see .

Edited September 6, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Calderis he/him]

9 minutes ago, bleeder said:

Dalinar's not a murderer?

Let's see. Of our Radiants, who has comnited what could be considered murder, depending on the chosen definition of that word. 

I don't doubt for a second that Dalinar has killed people in the past just because they were in his way. His attitude wouldn't have required a battlefield. He may have had the presence of mind to challenge a duel at times, but I am sure with his attitude in the flashback, that he'll have just struck. On multiple occasions. 

Shallan, her mother was probably self defense, but her father... Poison shows intent, and she actively kept him from recovering. 

Jasnah, considering her involvement with assassins and her alleyway scene, I don't doubt she killed others for a moment. 

Lift. Nah, pretty innocent. 

Renarin. I doubt it. 

Kaladin. No, but he was definitely willing to do it. 

Do we want to count Szeth?

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Renarin. I doubt it

I'm actually not sure if he has actually ever killed anyone, even in battle.

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Kaladin. No, but he was definitely willing to do it.

You mean Roshone in the flashback?

26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Do we want to count Szeth?

Eh, he is in his own little category . 

Overall I truly believe Dalinar is the biggest murderer of all the protagonists. Although I'd accept an argument that Shallan could be worse as it was her own parents. Dalinar wins on brutality hands down though.

[+robardin he/him]

7 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

[Punching Roshone] for Moash may show hope for the future.

I think it shows that Kaladin still has hope for Moash; at least, that he still considers Moash a friend, at some deeper level, despite Moash trying to kill him.

I've never been big on Moash. He was one of the most resistant to Kaladin's initial efforts to inspire Bridge Four, first changing his attitude after seeing Kaladin's astounding kata performance with the spear moments after deriding him as "probably never held a spear in his life", primarily to learn spearman skills himself. And he was the only member of Bridge Four not to get a tattoo on the forehead, even though all the other non-slave (and thus untattooed) bridgemen did so out of solidarity (Teft and Rock, and a few others).

He originally joined the army to pursue a dream of being trained in spear fighting and becoming the first darkeyes in a generation to win a Shard, but was consigned to the all-but-death-sentence of Bridge Four. He survived, was trained, rose to be Bridge Four's second in command, and even became a full Shardbearer, all thanks to the man he swore would be "his captain", forever. Then moved to kill him. With the very Shards he got from him!

At least Roshone's evil acts were borne of petty greed, and mostly within the law. Even Amaram, as Kaladin realized with a shock when Dalinar forced him to confess, was sincerely motivated by ideals of Lesser Evil Done For The Greater Good.

Moash's betrayal was far more personal and less idealistic: the betrayal of a man to whom he owed everything possible, with lethal intent, in the name of personal vengeance, even after Kaladin promised him justice against "the true person responsible" in Roshone.

To some extent, it seems that Kaladin was trying to lay some blame on Roshone for Moash's betrayal in the early chapters we've seen. I don't think that holds water at all, and eventually Kaladin may realize that.

He's as low in my regard as, say, Gaz was at the end of The Way of Kings.

Hmm. So maybe Shallan needs to show Moash a sketch of himself with his Bridge Four tattoo, this time on the forehead?
 

[Calderis he/him]

8 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

You mean Roshone in the flashback?

Amaram 

[frozndevl]

50 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Wait and see .

I shouldn't have deleted "yet" from my post.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

9 minutes ago, robardin said:

I think it shows that Kaladin still has hope for Moash; at least, that he still considers Moash a friend, at some deeper level, despite Moash trying to kill him.

I've never been big on Moash. He was one of the most resistant to Kaladin's initial efforts to inspire Bridge Four, first changing his attitude after seeing Kaladin's astounding kata performance with the spear moments after deriding him as "probably never held a spear in his life", primarily to learn spearman skills himself. And he was the only member of Bridge Four not to get a tattoo on the forehead, even though all the other non-slave (and thus untattooed) bridgemen did so out of solidarity (Teft and Rock, and a few others).

He originally joined the army to pursue a dream of being trained in spear fighting and becoming the first darkeyes in a generation to win a Shard, but was consigned to the all-but-death-sentence of Bridge Four. He survived, was trained, rose to be Bridge Four's second in command, and even became a full Shardbearer, all thanks to the man he swore would be "his captain", forever. Then moved to kill him. With the very Shards he got from him!

At least Roshone's evil acts were borne of petty greed, and mostly within the law. Even Amaram, as Kaladin realized with a shock when Dalinar forced him to confess, was sincerely motivated by ideals of Lesser Evil Done For The Greater Good.

Moash's betrayal was far more personal and less idealistic: the betrayal of a man to whom he owed everything possible, with lethal intent, in the name of personal vengeance, even after Kaladin promised him justice against "the true person responsible" in Roshone.

To some extent, it seems that Kaladin was trying to lay some blame on Roshone for Moash's betrayal in the early chapters we've seen. I don't think that holds water at all, and eventually Kaladin may realize that.

He's as low in my regard as, say, Gaz was at the end of The Way of Kings.

Hmm. So maybe Shallan needs to show Moash a sketch of himself with his Bridge Four tattoo, this time on the forehead?
 

Oh trust me, I'm the last person here to defend Moash. I've written some posts saying how despicable he seems to me, and how I hope he falls off his horse and breaks his neck, or some other ignominious death. Alas, I don't think that is going to happen. I would rank him and Amaram at similar levels of contempt. I never bought Amaram For the Greater Good spiel. Oh, I'm sure he believes it. But its simply just for greed and personal gain and glory. 

For The Greater Good: HP

[Calderis he/him]

11 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Oh trust me, I'm the last person here to defend Moash. I've written some posts saying how despicable he seems to me, and how I hope he falls off his horse and breaks his neck, or some other ignominious death. Alas, I don't think that is going to happen. I would rank him and Amaram at similar levels of contempt. I never bought Amaram For the Greater Good spiel. Oh, I'm sure he believes it. But its simply just for greed and personal gain and glory. 

For The Greater Good: HP

His guilt at Kaladin's words when he accuses him of it being selfish tells me that he doesn't even fully believe it

[king of nowhere]

24 minutes ago, robardin said:

I think it shows that Kaladin still has hope for Moash; at least, that he still considers Moash a friend, at some deeper level, despite Moash trying to kill him.

I've never been big on Moash. He was one of the most resistant to Kaladin's initial efforts to inspire Bridge Four, first changing his attitude after seeing Kaladin's astounding kata performance with the spear moments after deriding him as "probably never held a spear in his life", primarily to learn spearman skills himself. And he was the only member of Bridge Four not to get a tattoo on the forehead, even though all the other non-slave (and thus untattooed) bridgemen did so out of solidarity (Teft and Rock, and a few others).

He originally joined the army to pursue a dream of being trained in spear fighting and becoming the first darkeyes in a generation to win a Shard, but was consigned to the all-but-death-sentence of Bridge Four. He survived, was trained, rose to be Bridge Four's second in command, and even became a full Shardbearer, all thanks to the man he swore would be "his captain", forever. Then moved to kill him. With the very Shards he got from him!

At least Roshone's evil acts were borne of petty greed, and mostly within the law. Even Amaram, as Kaladin realized with a shock when Dalinar forced him to confess, was sincerely motivated by ideals of Lesser Evil Done For The Greater Good.

Moash's betrayal was far more personal and less idealistic: the betrayal of a man to whom he owed everything possible, with lethal intent, in the name of personal vengeance, even after Kaladin promised him justice against "the true person responsible" in Roshone.

To some extent, it seems that Kaladin was trying to lay some blame on Roshone for Moash's betrayal in the early chapters we've seen. I don't think that holds water at all, and eventually Kaladin may realize that.

He's as low in my regard as, say, Gaz was at the end of The Way of Kings.

Hmm. So maybe Shallan needs to show Moash a sketch of himself with his Bridge Four tattoo, this time on the forehead?
 

Yeah, with everything moash owes kaladin, I was expecting that when kaladin stood for the king moash would have thrown away his shards and declared his support for kaladin out of sheer trust earned. failing that, as kaladin was unarmed and in no condition to fight, moash could have simply ignored him while he proceeded to finish the king. that he had the guts to punch the man who saved his life, trained him to fight and got him shards... ouch. As moral standing go, moash is the lowest one in the whole stomrlight archive. I can't think of anyone who did things as despicable as he did. Not roshone, not amaram, not sadeas himself, though the latter is the only one who can compare.

Also, I will upvote your post tomorrow if I remember to do it.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

I never liked Moash. In TWoK he was a problem. In start of WoR he was like a mad dog snapping. In the end of WoR...HE BETRAYED A FRIEND, THERE IS NO GREATER CRIME, DIEEEEEEEE.

Upvotes are truly becoming a problem. Maybe I can reread thread on weekend to give upvotes I couldn't already. That I was out today by 10 in the morning says it all .

[the_archduke he/him]

49 minutes ago, robardin said:

 

He originally joined the army to pursue a dream of being trained in spear fighting and becoming the first darkeyes in a generation to win a Shard,

Nitpick:  The fourth darkeyes ever to win a shard