[OB] Oathbringer 4-6

[ccstat]

6 hours ago, Musica said:

 is it possible Shallan said and done nothing in her few appearances because SHE WASN'T ACTUALLY THERE?? Could she have sent an illusion of herself so that nobody would be looking for her while actually meeting with the Ghostblood/spying on someone/studying???

Glad I wasn't the only person to think this! I can't quite say I think it's true, because that would be a lot of stormlight to use when there is almost none to be found. But as fun, longshot speculation goes, I approve!

[Siaun Sanche]

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

Also (+1)
And on Dalinar usurping power: Technically he has done no such thing. He feels he did it, but: Urithiru is not and has never been a part of Alethkar. The King of Alethkar is an embassador in Urithiru at best. Leading the armies to fight the Parshendi (to prevent the Everstorm) also falls into the responsibilities of a general. The discovery of Urithiru and the escape there was a byproduct and Dalinar, being the only Bondsmith now, is the one in charge in Urithiru, Elhokar really has no right to any role of leadership there. And the Radiant City being annected to Alethkar is a thing unthinkable with Knights Radiants reappearing.

"Urithiru" doesn't exist as a political entity. It was an empty city in the mountains until a week ago, and the Knights Radiants have been gone for a long time. So the 'principle' that the Alethi king is subordinate in Urithiru to the Bondsmiths is not one recognized by anybody currently in Urithiru. (This includes Dalinar, who is handing out Alethi titles to Alethi highprinces.)

[Elena]

2 hours ago, Extesian said:

Where...the...hell...are...the...parshmen. Kaladin's parents describe the storm damage, ain't no waaay  they would fail to mention parshmen turning into demons. 

I'm about 95% sure they disappeared. All the isolated Parshmen who couldn't havr hoped to survive after taking on an entire town are probably hiding and regrouping somewhere, learning how to use lightning 

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

 

The sweet thing is, if by the time its found out Adolin killed Sadeas he is already highprince I doubt they can do anything legally against him.

This is beautiful. 

[Pattern]

14 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

"Urithiru" doesn't exist as a political entity. It was an empty city in the mountains until a week ago, and the Knights Radiants have been gone for a long time. So the 'principle' that the Alethi king is subordinate in Urithiru to the Bondsmiths is not one recognized by anybody currently in Urithiru. (This includes Dalinar, who is handing out Alethi titles to Alethi highprinces.)

Urithiru existed as the mythological home of the Knights Radiants. Though it might not have been a political entitity a week ago, now it is. The Knights Radiant are back and without a living shardblade nobody can even enter or leave Urithiru (well, there might or might not be the way Nohadon walked to Urithiru). Nor does anyone know the exact location in Roshar. It definitely is not situated in Alethkar and Elhokar's authority there is nil.

People will have to understand this, also Dalinar hopefully will sooner or later leave Alethkar behind.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Pattern

[soyperson]

9 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Friendly reminder: Adolin is a murderer and a coward 

So are Dalinar, Shallan, Kaladin, 9 of the Heralds, and countless other characters in Brandon's works. That just helps to propel the story forward. If everyone was a perfect hero, there wouldn't be any conflict or interesting narrative. Besides, we're only on Book Three of a ten book series. There's plenty of time for more character development.

(Sorry if I'm behind on this, I just woke up and began combing the thread)

Edited September 6, 2017 by bleeder

[redbishop]

2 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Urithiru existed as the mythological home of the Knights Radiants. Though it might not have been a political entitity a week ago, now it is. The Knights Radiant are back and without a living shardblade nobody can even enter or leave Urithiru. Nor does anyone know the exact location in Roshar. It definitely is not in Alethkar and Elhokar's authority there is nil.

I think this is about interpretation.  Option 1, what you say is 100% true.  Option 2, all of the known KRs are tied (by blood, oaths, or causal betrothal) to Dalinar, an Alethi Highprince of War and de facto Overlord of Alethkar with his eye on all of Roshar and the sense of a divine mandate. 

Dalinar's marriage to Navani was both sudden and in open defiance of convention, and I think this may be a sign that the Blackthorn is stirring inside him.  After showing Dalinar's steadfast devotion to the Alethi Codes of War for two books, followed by this, I suspect that we are being led to see that Dalinar is no longer going to let convention be an impediment to necessity.  Of course, this will likely lead to him finding himself again in some morally ambiguous situations, and the books climax could be him recognizing something about compromise (possibly a Bondsmith oath?) as he has to find an internal balance between Highprince Dalinar and the Blackthorn.

And hey, why wouldn't we see a conflict like that?  The KR are all Broken Aces, right?  We need to see their baggage.  I find it easy to forget their imperfections and vices and idealize our heroes when I am not reading the books, and Dalinar is more perfect than most, in many ways.  Time to trot out the skeletons from the closet!

[StormblessDave]

Bits I enjoyed and stood out for me these chapters-

Chapter4 -

I'm beginning to like the Stormfather, Dalinar seems to be able to see things going on without having to be there(like scrying) It'd be cool if he learned to be able to do this voluntarily, I enjoyed the wedding scene, I reaaly want to know what the boon was(Nightwatcher), The Kadesh memory looks cool, cant wait to see that in one of the prologues

Chapter 5-

Honestly, I skipped it, I'd read it before

Chapter 6-

Beautiful, His parents are good people, Lirin's reception was better than what I expected, Kal's glare at the guard was priceless and his punch made my day, I cant wait for everyone to find out he's a superhero lol

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by StormblessDave

[Nathrangking]

Mara is fafen maybe? would certainly make things interesting with Vivenna possibly on Roshar.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Nathrangking

[thezec]

Regarding Evi's death, I don't think Dalinar killed her. The whole scene is described as hostage and vengeance, and a long march full of hatred. I think that when he finally found her he failed to save her, hence the "You are not infallible". From there, consumed by the Thrill, he slaughtered everyone he saw, including unharmed men, children, women related to the kidnapper (Rathalas?) to a degree with shocked even Kadash and drove him to the Ardentia.

Just my opinion, but I see the Thrill and the rampage as a consequence of Evi's death, not a cause.

[ScavellTane]

28 minutes ago, StormblessDave said:

Bits I enjoyed and stood out for me these chapters-

Chapter4 -

I'm beginning to like the Stormfather, Dalinar seems to be able to see things going on without having to be there(like scrying) It'd be cool if he learned to be able to do this voluntarily, I enjoyed the wedding scene, I reaaly want to know what the boon was(Nightwatcher), The Kadesh memory looks cool, cant wait to see that in one of the prologues

Chapter 5-

Honestly, I skipped it, I'd read it before

Chapter 6-

Beautiful, His parents are good people, Lirin's reception was better than what I expected, Kal's glare at the guard was priceless and his punch made my day, I cant wait for everyone to find out he's a superhero lol

 

I believe the boon is to forget his wife. It's the curse that's 'unknown'.

Edited September 6, 2017 by ScavellTane

[kari-no-sugata]

The sum total of Shallan's existence in the first 6 chapters is like this (chapters 4 and 6):

Quote

 

Behind him, Adolin and Renarin gathered with Shallan and a few of the bridgemen.

“Father?” A soft voice drew his attention. Renarin, who stood beside Shallan and Adolin. “You didn’t mention us. Me and Brightness Shallan. What is our task?”

The balcony crawled steadily along a vertical trench in the wall; Adolin and Renarin rode with him, along with a few guards and Shallan Davar.

 

There's been a bit of speculation about this. Trying to summarise things a bit...

There's been speculation from several posters that maybe the "Shallan" we see here is actually Lightweaving, and the real Shallan is elsewhere. I certainly don't think this is impossible for Lightweaving to be capable of this and I wouldn't be too surprised to see Shallan being able to do this at some point in the series. However, I can see several problems with this: firstly, this would be much more advanced than anything Shallan has done so far - the Lightweaving would have to interact with others, including sound. In technical complexity that already puts it several steps ahead of anything Shallan has demonstrated so far. A second problem is that Lightweaving is just light and has no substance so she wouldn't be able to touch anything and nobody would be able to touch her - this makes it very easy to expose so it would be extremely risky to use if there's any downsides to it being exposed (which I would say is highly likely). Even if we theorise that the Ghostbloods are already forcing Shallan to do things I don't see why they would be putting her under so much pressure that she has to risk exposing herself - it would be self-defeating. Also, this is on two completely different occasions.

I dunno if there's anything magical going on here. A more mundane but still magical possibility is that Shallan is doing something (quite possibly unconsciously) that has the effect of people not noticing her so well. Just a small effect, though the effect is enhanced in crowds (explaining why it had no obvious effect in Dalinar's POV of Shallan right at the end of WoR). The idea here is that maybe Shallan is more depressed than expected and wants to be left alone (while not making it obvious to others) and this desire is being magically enhanced. Can Lightweaving achieve this though? Maybe. It can certainly make her stand out more so maybe it can do the opposite too.

Another possibility is that Dalinar is simply not paying much attention to Shallan. I have no real justification for this idea though - I don't see why Dalinar would be thinking like this.

 

On a more general note: I seem to remember Brandon being quoted as saying that Shallan was getting a bit full of herself during WoR (or something like that). It would be dangerous if that turned into arrogance. Shallan's last POV scene in WoR would also be painful for her as she had always feared that having to acknowledge what she did to her mother could mentally cripple her. Shallan has gotten tougher mentally, but it would probably stretch credibility for her to be unaffected by this. This is definitely not to suggest that Shallan is going to be massively knocked back as a character or something - once she fully accepts her past she should be stronger than ever.

Maybe characters being haunted by their past and getting over it will be a major element of this book - we've already seen aspects of this with Dalinar and Kaladin.

[FollowYourMuse]

Shallan - If this is just couldn't see reasons to just add in dialogue from every character and not focus on Dalinar then:  My theory here is that she has slipped some into her timid self.  She has finally faced her lies and repressed memories. Much of her happy open self was an act, part of her lie to herself. 

I agree that though still a bit bitter that Ehlokars statements were mature and not as selfish as he was portrayed in the past.

Without Sadeas looks like Dalinars trouble will be coming from Vorinism - I expect Amaram and the sons of honor to side with the church on this. Kadash I think though he will have more of a role, will mostly be as a reminder of Dalanars past. 
I am not discounting Ialai but her ways are those of spies and assasins. I think she will be a problem, but not in the same way.

Kaladin....   I think we are seeing the growth and acceptance finally. He knows the rain makes him gloomy but is being rational about it.
He accepts his parents comfort, and also does not just bash through their joy or plans of him coming home like a lost child.

Punching Roshone is brilliant, old Kal would have thought of killing him or made himself sick in in-decision and hate.  Radiant Kal was decisive, and though he wont kill Roshone and would protect him from voidbringers, he does not have to like him or listen to his insults. I saw the punch as more retribution for Roshones acts against Moash's grandparents than revenge for all that went wrong in Kaladins life.

 

The pacing does seem different, probably because it is 3rd book in a 5 book arc, it appears that  we are rushing through the little details. 

• Sadeus killed? oh well move on more important things to worry about.
   Actually i do see that by naming Aladar Highprince of Information Dalinar might finally be delegating things.
• Dalinar needs to get married -  done
  As many have commented both ways, White wedding dresses are a western tradition, and really only a relatively recent one. 
• Bridge 4 - they glow can't really just be bodygaurds.
  Missing Bridge 4 !  with Kaladin gone  I am really hoping we get a few Bridge 4 POV's.

 

 

On another note, I will never understand  how some people can read like this on a regular basis, a few chapters at a time is painful! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ansalem]

25 minutes ago, redbishop said:

I think this is about interpretation.  Option 1, what you say is 100% true.  Option 2, all of the known KRs are tied (by blood, oaths, or causal betrothal) to Dalinar, an Alethi Highprince of War and de facto Overlord of Alethkar with his eye on all of Roshar and the sense of a divine mandate. 

No, they aren't. There's Lift, Stump, Szeth (probably) and basically all of the Skybreakers (granted we don't know how many there are, but we certainly know of them). None of them are tied to Dalinar, two of them probably don't even know he exists. Even if there's only 1 Skybreaker and we don't count Szeth, that's still 3 out of 8. Almost half of the known KRs are not tied to Dalinar. It is half if you count Szeth, more than half if we assume there is more than one Skybreaker. And one of those is Dalinar himself.

Besides which, even assuming all of the known KRs are tied to Dalinar, we know for a fact that there are many more in the world. Dalinar's role is clearly meant to be finding them and uniting them. He may not be filling that role yet, but it's obviously where he has to go. Maybe he will do that as leader of Alethkar, but ruling Alethkar is still secondary.

He can't expect to incorporate the KRs across all of Roshar into Alethi rule, though. That'll be an exercise in futility. Many of them won't even be Vorin, a few may not even be human. And it's easily arguable that the KRs are not subject to any nation no matter what. People have been debating what dahn Kaladin will fall under now when the truth of the matter is Kaladin basically outranks everyone in the world who isn't a Radiant themselves, including kings. They may not know it yet, but that's how it'll shake out in the end.

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, thezec said:

Just my opinion, but I see the Thrill and the rampage as a consequence of Evi's death, not a cause.

Irhe Thrill has been described as more than just Adrenaline. It makes the enjoy the fight and want more of it. 

The memory that memory that Dalinar still has, a long march alone with the Thrill and Hatred, doesn't make sense unless it happened after Evi's death. Kadash is evidence that he didn't arrive alone. 

So what I think happened is he succumbed completely to the thrill and slaughtered everyone regardless of age or gender, and had no qualms with striking through a hostage used defensively. 

The March alone then came afterwards, with the thrill refusing to leave him, and the hatred directed at himself for what he'd done.

[Steeldancer]

Hey to you people who want all the upvotes for being the fastest- I'll be in school next week when it comes out, so you'll have a chance 

My conclusions are such- this book is storming awesome. I just wish we had pictures... that's my favorite part. 

[redbishop]

6 minutes ago, Ansalem said:

No, they aren't. There's Lift, Stump, Szeth (probably) and basically all of the Skybreakers (granted we don't know how many there are, but we certainly know of them). None of them are tied to Dalinar, two of them probably don't even know he exists. Even if there's only 1 Skybreaker and we don't count Szeth, that's still 3 out of 8. Almost half of the known KRs are not tied to Dalinar. It is half if you count Szeth, more than half if we assume there is more than one Skybreaker. And one of those is Dalinar himself.

My apologies, for I was not clear.  I meant "known from Dalinar's perspective."  At this point, all the KRs that he has heard of are popping up around him, not to mention Taln (though we have no strong idea what he thinks about that).

I'm uncertain regarding his intentions to unite them under Alethi rule, because I am uncertain (and think we're supposed to be uncertain) about what he has planned.  He stated an intention all of Roshar.  He is acting with the powers of the King, but Elhokar remains on the throne.  I feel like we're supposed to see the beginnings of an overlordship/empire or some unified coalition with himself as the dictator (in the pre-Imperial Roman sense).  Alternately, he may very well intend to unite them under Alethi rule by steamrolling everyone else into bending the knee, either by conquest or threats.  We see implications in the flashbacks that he and Gavilar won supporters by intimidation as well as by actual conquest.  Perhaps those ideas are swimming around in his head, regardless of what he actually ends up doing.

[+robardin]

More random thoughts:

Kaladin couldn't have outright killed Roshone - he got Syl killed for just being an accessory to murder. As Syl put it, "You're not supposed to be a Skybreaker", to mete out justice directly. She didn't even like him thinking about revenging on Amaram, who did actual, before-his-eyes murdering of his friends, whereas everything Roshone did to Kaladin and his family was technically within his legal rights. And ultimately based on a true charge of theft. (Maybe that's part of why he punched him "for Moash", as his getting Moash's grandparents arrested and incarcerated was on completely false charges.)

The pacing seems different because you're reading it in relatively short installments. There are going to be 12 weeks of these "serialized" chapters, apparently three each Tuesday (1-3, 4-6, and so on) until the official release date in November, and in total, those 12 weeks will encompass about 1/4 to 1/3 of the full book. So Prologue aside, we've seen 2 of 12 previews of (at best) 1/3 of the full book, or 1/18th of the entire novel. So comments like "so, no Sadeas blowback" or "Shallan's gone underground!" is way premature.

Had we been reading this as a full novel in our hands, we'd probably have blown through the past three weeks' worth of Oathbringer - Prologue, Chapters 1-3, and 4-6 - in what, an hour or so of reading? Maybe 90 minutes if savoring it?  (Personally, I tend to do that only on a second pass re-read - the first pass through a long-awaited book is a gluttonous binge.)

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by robardin

[Steeldancer]

6 minutes ago, robardin said:

More random thoughts:

Kaladin couldn't have outright killed Roshone - he got Syl killed for just being an accessory to murder. As Syl put it, "You're not supposed to be a Skybreaker", to mete out justice directly. She didn't even like him thinking about revenging on Amaram, who did actual, before-his-eyes murdering of his friends, whereas everything Roshone did to Kaladin and his family was technically within his legal rights. And ultimately based on a true charge of theft. (Maybe that's part of why he punched him "for Moash", as his getting Moash's grandparents arrested and incarcerated was on completely false charges.)

The pacing seems different because you're reading it in relatively short installments. There are going to be 12 weeks of these "serialized" chapters, apparently three each Tuesday (1-3, 4-6, and so on) until the official release date in November, and in total, those 12 weeks will encompass about 1/4 to 1/3 of the full book. So Prologue aside, we've seen 2 of 12 previews of (at best) 1/3 of the full book, or 1/18th of the entire novel. So comments like "so, no Sadeas blowback" or "Shallan's gone underground!" is way premature.

Had we been reading this as a full novel in our hands, we'd probably have blown through the past three weeks' worth of Oathbringer - Prologue, Chapters 1-3, and 4-6 - in what, an hour or so of reading? Maybe 90 minutes if savoring it?  (Personally, I tend to do that only on a second pass re-read - the first pass through a long-awaited book is a gluttonous binge.)

 

20 minutes. Easily. 

[Ansalem]

24 minutes ago, redbishop said:

My apologies, for I was not clear.  I meant "known from Dalinar's perspective."  At this point, all the KRs that he has heard of are popping up around him, not to mention Taln (though we have no strong idea what he thinks about that).

I'm uncertain regarding his intentions to unite them under Alethi rule, because I am uncertain (and think we're supposed to be uncertain) about what he has planned.  He stated an intention all of Roshar.  He is acting with the powers of the King, but Elhokar remains on the throne.  I feel like we're supposed to see the beginnings of an overlordship/empire or some unified coalition with himself as the dictator (in the pre-Imperial Roman sense).  Alternately, he may very well intend to unite them under Alethi rule by steamrolling everyone else into bending the knee, either by conquest or threats.  We see implications in the flashbacks that he and Gavilar won supporters by intimidation as well as by actual conquest.  Perhaps those ideas are swimming around in his head, regardless of what he actually ends up doing.

Ah, I see. Well, that's fair enough then.

Though, I doubt he is planning on conquest. He'll surely attempt diplomacy first. I'm sure he does have conquest on the table, though. The threat is too dire not to consider every possible option. But I feel like he's changed far enough toward a diplomat by this point that he'll try that method for as long as he can first.

[Calderis]

Hate to be a downer here, but on the "Shallan is an illusion" thought... 

This could be the case but we know that Radiants have to be in close proximity to their spren to use their powers 

Unless she's still close enough to watch, and is only doing it for practice, I can't fathom how it would be possible. 

She can't just make an illusion in one place and then jaunt off around the rest of the city. 

As far as we've seen, here illusions aren't autonomous. 

[BlackYeti]

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

Urithiru existed as the mythological home of the Knights Radiants. Though it might not have been a political entitity a week ago, now it is.

No it isn't!

That's what it was millennia ago, but it apparently hasn't been that since the Recreance. It isn't that now. It remains to be seen whether it will become that again. Currently, it is a de facto Alethi city, much as the Shattered Plains were a de facto Alethi province, as everyone currently in Urithiru accepts that to be the case. The situation will certainly change, but as it stands, Dalinar is certainly usurping Elhokar's authority (not that that's a bad thing given the situation).

I have to wonder what the Stormfather's reaction to that will be since Dalinar vowed that he would never do that, and the Stormfather seems to be somewhat particular about oaths.

[redbishop]

27 minutes ago, Ansalem said:

Though, I doubt he is planning on conquest. He'll surely attempt diplomacy first. I'm sure he does have conquest on the table, though. The threat is too dire not to consider every possible option. But I feel like he's changed far enough toward a diplomat by this point that he'll try that method for as long as he can first.

I think you are correct, though I think the flashbacks we are seeing are setting up for a gradual backsliding.  He likely does not consider conquest as a serious likelihood, but what if a holdout princedom or small kingdom refuses passage to Alethi troops going to fight off the Voidbringers that are gathering in some remote location?  All it would take is defeating a small garrison - and aren't we all really on the same side?  Some little slip - not even a violation of his oaths, because conquest actually does bring people together, from at least one point of view, and the old habits will start pouring back.

[hypatia]

On a sidenote:

Is Dalinar able to leave Urithiru on his own?

Bondsmith traditionally don't have a sprens transforming in a Shardblade and you need this for the Oathgates.

[vividox]

14 hours ago, Jess said:

Is it just me, or is this a really weird thing for Jasnah to say? People don't claim she's a heretic; they know she is. She's a professed atheist. She's not shy about it. But the language here is almost defensive, like the author doesn't consider themself a heretic and doesn't like being considered one by others.

I just can't shake the feeling that the hints toward Jasnah being the epigraph author are red herrings. The details are incongruous. Seeing "beyond" Shadesmar, "I thought that I was surely dead"... if that is Jasnah I think it is referring to an event we haven't seen yet, and not anything in WoR.

Jasnah is an atheist now - but that is a particularly strange position to have when we as readers knows that Honor existed at some point and Honor is nearly synonymous with the Vorin idea of the Almighty. She's going to find out about Honor and Shards and Adonalsium eventually. When she does, it will be impossible to call herself an atheist anymore. She may well be called a heretic in the scope of Vorinism, however. In the same way Dalinar is being called a heretic for claiming the Almighty is dead.

That epigraph could still be a red herring, but I could absolutely see how Jasnah could say something like that after she stumbles upon some Cosmere secrets - or even after her little vacation in Shadesmar. 

[BlackYeti]

10 minutes ago, vividox said:

Jasnah is an atheist now - but that is a particularly strange position to have when we as readers knows that Honor existed at some point and Honor is nearly synonymous with the Vorin idea of the Almighty. She's going to find out about Honor and Shards and Adonalsium eventually. When she does, it will be impossible to call herself an atheist anymore. She may well be called a heretic in the scope of Vorinism, however. In the same way Dalinar is being called a heretic for claiming the Almighty is dead.

She's already addressed this:

Quote

“I don’t know,” Jasnah said. “There are many things in this world that I don’t understand. For example, there is some slight proof that both the Stormfather and the Almighty are real creatures—simply powerful spren, such as the Nightwatcher.”

“Then he would be real.”

“I never claimed he was not,” Jasnah said. “I merely claimed that I do not accept him as God, nor do I feel any inclination to worship him. But this is, again, a tangent.”

Words of Radiance, Chapter 3: Pattern

There is therefore no contradiction in her beliefs with what we know about Honour.

Edited September 6, 2017 by BlackYeti