[OB] Oathbringer 4-6

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Rhaegar'Elin said:

SPOILER The Thrill

  Reveal hidden contents

The Rift (Rathalas) is the place were Dalinar killed a little boy (the heir of the Princedom) to get Oathbringer.

I guess assisting to such a scene would be discomforting (to say the least) for everyone: even Dalinar was distraught at the end of the chapter.

 

Yeah, I just remembered where I'd read "The Rift" before in the context of Dalinar: from the Dalinar POVs in the Unfettered II anthology.

If we're supposed to spoiler that even in this thread, which is already a spoilered sub-forum,

Spoiler

Maybe it was just me clinging to some shred of disbelief, but I really, really hoped that Dalinar had found a way to take the Shardblade from Tanalan's 7 year old son without killing him - if Tanalan had just died and the Blade had materialized, the boy certainly hadn't had time to bond to it yet. But he's definitely ashamed of something, to the point of worrying that Gavilar would find out about it, in the next scene when Gavilar comments on his newly-won Shardblade being Oathbringer, the sword of the Sunmaker, the last king of a unified Alethkar before them.

 

[maxal]

Here are my comments, I tried to quickly browse through everyone's but wow you guys have been busy today. My quick review is: "I loved it". Now here is my longer review.

Chapter 4:

I did not expect the wedding, not so soon and especially not with the Stormfather officiating. Brandon said he would show us a traditional Alethi wedding, sometimes within the series. A lot of readers have predicted it would be Dalinar and Navani: they were wrong. Their wedding was not a traditional one, which means someone else is likely to tie the knot at some point, so either it will be Dalinar and Evi through a flashback or Adolin finally getting a wife.

I loved to see Dalinar admitting the truth to Navani and my heart literally stopped when we learned Evi was abducted and murdered... The conversation afterwards with Kadash made me think he was around at the time, he saw what happened and it wasn't pretty. My current guess is Dalinar went into berserk more and killed everyone around him, including civilian, including his wife. He got so lost into the thrill, he killed her without realizing it. This obviously raises the question as to why neither Renarin nor Adolin seem to have been affected by their mother's death. I always took it she might have died of a long sickness, thus making it easier for the boys to bear, but turns out she was murdered. Brutally. Why aren't the boys carrying any scars? They mother was murdered.

Elhokar's reaction to the wedding was rather... cold. This short segment combined with Elhokar's refusal to actually physically make it to Sadeas's murder scene does give credence to my theories wanting him to turn into an antagonist. I definitely read ill-feelings towards his uncle and his talk of needing to grasp what he wants no matter the means does not bode well for the future. I never believed in Elhokar as a Radiant, I believe it even less now.

Adolin's reaction was adorable, I'm glad he got to be happy. I thought what made it better is Dalinar expected Adolin to react with awe. I also noted how he was the most expressive of all people around.

I have a bad feeling about Kadash... He will pose problems. Will he go as far as to try to overthrow Dalinar?

I also share other readers on how weird it is for Dalinar to comment on Adolin, Renarin and Shallan being there without them actually saying anything. This is odd. It reads odd.

Chapter 5-6

I will review those two together because I feel they belong together. So Kaladin came back home and IT WAS SWEET. I never been happier to see most readers predictions turn out completely false: not only Kaladin parents are very alive, quite well and still in Heartstone, they are unbelievably happy to see him. As for Kaladin, how refreshing was it to see him happy to see his parents, to wash the guilt over Tien's death wash away as he found himself remembering the sweet moments, the good moments. And what is it Hesina is hiding?

How long ago was it I launched the idea of Lirin and Hesina having had another child? Two years? So far, it seems like I may have been right.

I took note of mysterious Mara.

I loved how Kaladin punched Roshone in the face: he totally deserved it. Seeing Kaladin owning it, behaving as if they couldn't get to him (and they can't) was so great to read I got really pumped for his future story arc. I love this Kaladin. Also, I am surprised to be the first one to mention how Kaladin, of all people, starts to judge Roshone based on his outfit. Gee Kaladin, so much for laughing of Adolin and his fashion magazines, looks like you grabs a thing or two: thinking of Roshone's short coat as "out of fashion for several years now" was quite frankly hilarious. If the next comments he makes, after the punch, has to do with the coat, I will roll onto the ground.

That's all I can think for now, but I am sure more will pop into my mind. So far so good, I love this week's chapters. On the side note, looks like many readers were right, Sadeas being dead doesn't seem like it will be such a big deal: three days later and nobody gives a care. It makes me wonder if the fall out I have predicted in between Dalinar and Adolin won't come from Adolin learning about his father's implication in his mother's dead.....

[+robardin]

Hopefully Kaladin puts all the things together he's seen that is telling him exactly how far out of the center of events Hearthstone is - from Roshone's out of style clothes to the surprising lack of Voidbringers in the area - not to just proclaim and demonstrate himself a Radiant. Remember, Vorinism officially considers the Knights Radiant as an evil and fallen group. It might be considered even more of an ill omen than him returning all shashed up.

It really comes down to what, exactly, the wording is in the writs that he carries from Dalinar and the king. (That's Elhokar, *cough*). I'd be surprised if it named him a Radiant, for that reason, but we'll find out.

 

[+robardin]

On 9/5/2017 at 5:55 PM, maxal said:

... looks like many readers were right, Sadeas being dead doesn't seem like it will be such a big deal: three days later and nobody gives a care. It makes me wonder if the fall out I have predicted in between Dalinar and Adolin won't come from Adolin learning about his father's implication in his mother's dead.....

No way that doesn't become a big deal, IMHO. It's just that we've only had a few brief POVs so far to deal with it, one of which focused on Dalinar's marriage to Navani, which is yet another bombshell in the making.

Don't forget that Sadeas' men were VERY upset (and who is Sadeas' heir?), and Dalinar's efforts to unify all the Highprinces can only be hampered by the outright murder of one of their number, especially one who was last seen as working against him, and if it becomes clear that the murderer was Dalinar's own son and heir. Everyone will assume he acted under Dalinar's orders, or at least blessing; to dispel that would require a visibly harsh punishment.

Otherwise it will look exactly like what Elhokar said: that Dalinar is, once again, simply deciding to take what he desires, without regard to the opposition. His sister-in-law as wife over the entire ardentia, his nephew's authority as king, another Highprince's life... Not good "optics". And very, very difficult to juggle with "I will bring men together".

Sadeas' wife Ialai was a pretty smart woman, in deep with his plans and with her own network of operatives, so she will be quite dangerous.

Edited September 7, 2017 by robardin
Misspelled Sadeas' wife's name

[Elena]

13 minutes ago, maxal said:

I loved how Kaladin punched Roshone in the face: he totally deserved it. Seeing Kaladin owning it, behaving as if they couldn't get to him (and they can't) was so great to read I got really pumped for his future story arc. I love this Kaladin. Also, I am surprised to be the first one to mention how Kaladin, of all people, starts to judge Roshone based on his outfit. Gee Kaladin, so much for laughing of Adolin and his fashion magazines, looks like you grabs a thing or two: thinking of Roshone's short coat as "out of fashion for several years now" was quite frankly hilarious. If the next comments he makes, after the punch, has to do with the coat, I will roll onto the ground.

 

Sorry, got there first ....but in all seriousness, why aren't more people freaking out at Kaladin's fashionista side coming out to play? You just know he was curious to find out what the fuss was all about with Adolin's fashion booklets, so he read them all the while telling himself he was being a Good Bodyguard and protecting Adolin from... something. I just really want him and Adolin to start criticizing Amaram's style like they're in Mean Girls.

I'm sorry, the more I think about it the more I snicker

[Siaun Sanche]

24 minutes ago, maxal said:

That's all I can think for now, but I am sure more will pop into my mind. So far so good, I love this week's chapters. On the side note, looks like many readers were right, Sadeas being dead doesn't seem like it will be such a big deal: three days later and nobody gives a care. It makes me wonder if the fall out I have predicted in between Dalinar and Adolin won't come from Adolin learning about his father's implication in his mother's dead.....

Well, Dalinar and his most loyal supporters don't care, but the vast majority of them (a) were relieved to know that he's dead and (b) take it for granted that they didn't have anything to do with the murder. There are a bunch of highprinces who weren't at the wedding who probably feel otherwise.

[king of nowhere]

23 minutes ago, Elena said:

Sorry, got there first ....but in all seriousness, why aren't more people freaking out at Kaladin's fashionista side coming out to play? You just know he was curious to find out what the fuss was all about with Adolin's fashion booklets, so he read them all the while telling himself he was being a Good Bodyguard and protecting Adolin from... something. I just really want him and Adolin to start criticizing Amaram's style like they're in Mean Girls.

I'm sorry, the more I think about it the more I snicker

I don't read it as kaladin becoming a fashionista, but merely as an indication that roshone is fallen very far for a lighteye of high rank. you don't need to care about fashion to figure out what a specific attire means. As sadeas said to dalinar on this very topic: you are avoiding the fashion game entirely with your uniforms, but those who play it should do it properly

[OathKeeper]

Vorin church is a growing antagonist and will definitely use Renarin's precognition against Dalinar. 

Dalinar hadn't done much by way of acknowledging Cultivation yet. Might the "higher god" just be the one of the two shards that still lives? If we assume he's interpreting things right, ch4 really messes with our understanding of the cosmere.

I bet he killed his wife (maybe indirectly) to in order to unite Alethkar. And I bet his great internal conflict in this book will be to maintain both his 2nd oath and his oath to Navani when they come into conflict.

I like the idea of Renarin authoring Oathbringer but I think Jasnah is more likely. How bent on surprising us is BS? But I bet that the title is a double entendre, referring to both Dalinar and a high spren she learned about while missing in WoR. I think the shardblade was named accurately for the spren it once was. 

Whatever is happening in hearthstone, I bet it's related to the Queen or Amaram.

Besides, who IS the high prince now? Who succeeded Sadeas?

 

[the_archduke]

Was I the only one who thought Syl was flirting with Kaladin before they got to Heathstone?  Her wearing the havah made me think that for some reason.  Their interaction seemed very flirtatious on her part.

Has anyone shipped Syl with Kaladin before?  It seems crazy, but... 

 

edit- Here's the quote

 

“Do you like the new dress?” Syl asked, wagging her covered safehand as she stood in the air.

“Looks strange on you.”

“I’ll have you know I put a ton of thought into it. I spent positively hours thinking of just how—Oh! What’s that?”

Edited September 5, 2017 by the_archduke

[KidWayne]

32 minutes ago, robardin said:

Don't forget that Sadeas' men were VERY upset (and who is Sadeas' heir?), and Dalinar's efforts to unify all the Highprinces can only be hampered by the outright murder of one of their number, especially one who was last seen as working against him, and if it becomes clear that the murderer was Dalinar's own son and heir. Everyone will assume he acted under Dalinar's orders, or at least blessing; to dispel that would require a visibly harsh punishment.

Otherwise it will look exactly like what Elhokar said: that Dalinar is, once again, simply deciding to take what he desires, without regard to the opposition. His sister-in-law as wife over the entire ardentia, his nephew's authority as king, another Highprince's life... Not good "optics". And very, very difficult to juggle with "I will bring men together".

I agree that Sadeas' murder will come into play eventually. You're probably right about how Dalinar's current/recent actions are providing his political enemies with plenty of political ammunition for the brewing conflict. However, in a time of war, "might makes right" has more validity than usual. In that regard, Dalinar packs quite a heavy punch with the might of the growing ranks of Knights Radiant at his disposal.

Also, he seems committed to bringing men together in his conscious efforts (regardless of how much strife he stirs up by accident). Don't forget that he promises Elhokar, “I have things to discuss with you. Plans that you might appreciate." He also re-commits himself to the task of uniting all of Roshar in chapter 2, "To face the Desolation, I will find a way to do what my ancestor the Sunmaker failed to do through conquest. I will unify Roshar.” I suspect that he will set himself up as an emperor - a king of kings if you will - under Uruthiru. That way, Elhokar keeps his throne and Alethkar becomes a vassal-kingdom under Dalinar and the Knights Radiant.

So, Elhokar is right; Dalinar is taking what he wants/needs to accomplish his calling (i.e. to unite Roshar). You're also probably right that Dalinar will be resisted with political intrigue and accusations of everything from insanity, heresy, and lust for power to hypocrisy. However, in the end it won't matter when the Voidbringers attack in force. None of Dalinar's detractors will know what to do and they will turn to him (and his access to supernatural powers) in desperation. In the end, we are all united in our desire to survive; so, when faced with an existential threat, might makes right.

[Ryder]

Just now, the_archduke said:

Was I the only one who thought Syl was flirting with Kaladin before they got to Heathstone?  Her wearing the havah made me think that for some reason.  Their interaction seemed very flirtatious on her part.

Has anyone shipped Syl with Kaladin before?  It seems crazy, but... 

My impression with the havah is that as Kaladin advances through his oaths Syl is becoming (slightly) more mature, and the transition from her earlier dress to the havah represents this as well as her improving understanding of human customs.  Or at least recognition of human customs, I doubt she understands why women have safehands, etc.

[OathKeeper]

2 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Was I the only one who thought Syl was flirting with Kaladin before they got to Heathstone?  Her wearing the havah made me think that for some reason.  Their interaction seemed very flirtatious on her part.

Has anyone shipped Syl with Kaladin before?  It seems crazy, but... 

THANK YOU.

I have, but never aloud. She is the one woman suited for him, even if she's not human. If BS commits to the Shaladin relationship so help me...

[Nathrangking]

Lets see dream wedding officiated  by mega powerful ancient spren 1099

Confirmation that Odium is aware of the blackthorn 559

Family reunion at home check. 690

Getting to knock out the guy who caused your family to suffer priceless!!!

When I read the knock out of Roshone I could not help, but think of the scene in the avengers where hulk smashes loki into the ground and calls him a puny god. In the new version Kaladin punches him and then proclaims Roshone a puny lighteyes!!

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Nathrangking

[maxal]

59 minutes ago, Elena said:

Sorry, got there first ....but in all seriousness, why aren't more people freaking out at Kaladin's fashionista side coming out to play? You just know he was curious to find out what the fuss was all about with Adolin's fashion booklets, so he read them all the while telling himself he was being a Good Bodyguard and protecting Adolin from... something. I just really want him and Adolin to start criticizing Amaram's style like they're in Mean Girls.

I'm sorry, the more I think about it the more I snicker

Ah missed your reply: there was a lot of catch on  Kaladin is obviously trying to protect Adolin from making a fashion faux-pas  I mean, imagine the tragedy if the prince were to show himself wearing a coating style which ran out of fashion last season? He is only seeing to his best interest as per any bodyguard would, even if Adolin only wears uniforms, though we know he will soon wear something else.

I so loved Kaladin within this chapter 

53 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

Well, Dalinar and his most loyal supporters don't care, but the vast majority of them (a) were relieved to know that he's dead and (b) take it for granted that they didn't have anything to do with the murder. There are a bunch of highprinces who weren't at the wedding who probably feel otherwise.

Still three days and nothing happened. I am going to start a count down: number of days Adolin kept his secret. So, three days plus one day equal four days.

This being said, I am surprised to read so many negative reactions (not necessarily here, but everywhere on the fandom) concerning Kaladin's punch onto Roshone. I was delighted and so pleased to read it. And the sentence: "What did you do? Hit a lighteyed" and Kaladin goes: "Yeah." Punch. I loved it.

I am also surprised in not seeing more negative comments onto Elhokar... I mean, he is obviously flustered and mad. I do not read this:

Quote

“You always are, Uncle,” Elhokar said. “It doesn’t stop you, but I don’t suppose that it should. Your life is defined by deciding what you want, then seizing it. The rest of us could learn from that, if only we could figure out how to keep up.”

As the unraveling of a great king: I read it as a spurned man having enough ego to do something about it.

 

[king of nowhere]

42 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Was I the only one who thought Syl was flirting with Kaladin before they got to Heathstone?  Her wearing the havah made me think that for some reason.  Their interaction seemed very flirtatious on her part.

Has anyone shipped Syl with Kaladin before?  It seems crazy, but... 

 

edit- Here's the quote

 

“Do you like the new dress?” Syl asked, wagging her covered safehand as she stood in the air.

“Looks strange on you.”

“I’ll have you know I put a ton of thought into it. I spent positively hours thinking of just how—Oh! What’s that?”

There was a thread that got locked and deleted but got infamous enough that many still remember it. And there was at least another thread on the topic of human-spren romance, which was ok and didn't get locked, but only concluded that we have nowhere near enough information on the topic and that syl is still way too childish for that at the moment. We'll have more ammunitions for it after we get the fulll book, though.

[Jess]

I know that many women who read this will see it only as further proof that I am the godless heretic everyone claims.

Is it just me, or is this a really weird thing for Jasnah to say? People don't claim she's a heretic; they know she is. She's a professed atheist. She's not shy about it. But the language here is almost defensive, like the author doesn't consider themself a heretic and doesn't like being considered one by others.

I just can't shake the feeling that the hints toward Jasnah being the epigraph author are red herrings. The details are incongruous. Seeing "beyond" Shadesmar, "I thought that I was surely dead"... if that is Jasnah I think it is referring to an event we haven't seen yet, and not anything in WoR.

[Calderis]

Ialai is a schemer, I have no doubt that she's going to make things very painful very quickly for Dalinar. 

Him going against the church in his marriage and invoking the name of the Knights Radiant are going to play into those plans. 

She will use everything she can against him. Renarin's visions will have him named heretic right alongside his father. 

This is not going to be a good time to be named Kholin. 

Edited September 5, 2017 by Calderis

[Asrael]

5 minutes ago, Jess said:

Is it just me, or is this a really weird thing for Jasnah to say? People don't claim she's a heretic; they know she is. She's a professed atheist. She's not shy about it. But the language here is almost defensive, like the author doesn't consider themself a heretic and doesn't like being considered one by others.

I just can't shake the feeling that the hints toward Jasnah being the epigraph author are red herrings. The details are incongruous. Seeing "beyond" Shadesmar, "I thought that I was surely dead"... if that is Jasnah I think it is referring to an event we haven't seen yet, and not anything in WoR.

You know, throughout this discussion so far I've been firmly in the its Jasnah, come on it's just so obvious, I mean SHES the one on the cover of the book camp... but for whatever reason you have just made me doubt.... this may indeed be Dalinar...

[Nathrangking]

23 minutes ago, maxal said:

Ah missed your reply: there was a lot of catch on  Kaladin is obviously trying to protect Adolin from making a fashion faux-pas  I mean, imagine the tragedy if the prince were to show himself wearing a coating style which ran out of fashion last season? He is only seeing to his best interest as per any bodyguard would, even if Adolin only wears uniforms, though we know he will soon wear something else.

I so loved Kaladin within this chapter 

Still three days and nothing happened. I am going to start a count down: number of days Adolin kept his secret. So, three days plus one day equal four days.

This being said, I am surprised to read so many negative reactions (not necessarily here, but everywhere on the fandom) concerning Kaladin's punch onto Roshone. I was delighted and so pleased to read it. And the sentence: "What did you do? Hit a lighteyed" and Kaladin goes: "Yeah." Punch. I loved it.

I am also surprised in not seeing more negative comments onto Elhokar... I mean, he is obviously flustered and mad. I do not read this:

As the unraveling of a great king: I read it as a spurned man having enough ego to do something about it.

 

@maxal see my rant for the true beauty of the knock out.

@Calderis so true. if only Dalinar could command the storms and give Ialai her own private thunderstorm to follow er around!!

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Jess said:

I just can't shake the feeling that the hints toward Jasnah being the epigraph author are red herrings. The details are incongruous. Seeing "beyond" Shadesmar, "I thought that I was surely dead"... if that is Jasnah I think it is referring to an event we haven't seen yet, and not anything in WoR.

I feel like the "I thought that I was surely dead" line was referring to Renarin exclaiming "we're dead" during the storm. 

The seeing beyond Shadesmar, all of it. I'm more and more convinced. 

I'll see if it holds up in a few more weeks. 

[Nathrangking]

Perhaps we will soon see. Renarin's secretive sight may prove interesting. Gazing into the spiritual realm perhaps?

[Ansalem]

28 minutes ago, Jess said:

Is it just me, or is this a really weird thing for Jasnah to say? People don't claim she's a heretic; they know she is. She's a professed atheist. She's not shy about it. But the language here is almost defensive, like the author doesn't consider themself a heretic and doesn't like being considered one by others.

I just can't shake the feeling that the hints toward Jasnah being the epigraph author are red herrings. The details are incongruous. Seeing "beyond" Shadesmar, "I thought that I was surely dead"... if that is Jasnah I think it is referring to an event we haven't seen yet, and not anything in WoR.

Yeah, that quote made me say "so not Jasnah, then" when I read it. There's no way that's her writing that. Unless it gets revised in the final print, which could happen I suppose. But as it's written it's 100% not Jasnah.

 

In order of who I think is most likely: Renarin, Dalinar, Navani, Shallan, anyone else we know, someone we haven't met yet..............Jasnah.

[Stormsurfer]

Overall every chapter so far has been more exciting than the last and we have only read 6 chapters plus the prologue

Spoiler

Finally dalinar has the balls to marry the woman he loves plus I'm sure we were all so happy to see kaladin finally knocked roshone the storm out

 

[sprocket]

I'm almost certain at this point that the author is Dalinar. The plot thread with the ardent is setting up a conflict between Dalinar and the Vorin Church. Dalinar is still firmly Vorin, but the church is going to brand him as a heretic in an attempt to undermine him. Hence why the author talks about people claiming he's a heretic. Like others have mentioned, Jasnah is a well known and self professed atheist, this would not be something that would bother her. 

As for the "I know that many women who read this" part, I think this is just a Vorin thing, as men can't read. Even if they're reading it to a man, it's still the woman reading it. I do acknowledge the fact that it really sounds like Jasnah. The parts about seeing Shadesmar, and the bit about appearing to die and having some who saw farther ahead thinking they did (Taravangian and the Diagram), all sound like Jasnah. I think this a red herring though, something to mislead us. I think it's describing things that have yet to happen. Which means at some point Dalinar is going to see Shadesmar and appear to die. 

[maxal]

8 hours ago, Chana said:

It's a small detail, but I'm really glad that Adolin is acting normally and seemed happy during the wedding. After his chapter last week I was scared he's gonna be nervous and grumpy all the time. And if his father didn't notice something is off about him, then maybe he will be fine and he won't be a suspect.

I am starting to think nobody will ever find out and Adolin will keep his secret forever... I mean, if he can act this happy so soon after, then well, I have been wrong on a few things. 

4 hours ago, Musica said:

Am I the only one who loved Kal's mention of Adolin while judging the Lighteyes' uniform? I adore their budding bromance! (please don't let the whole Shallan thing ruin that, Brandon!)

Nope. I loved it.

8 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Did anyone else feel all through the previous 2 books that Kaladin was the favorite kid? Tien was deeply loved, but with Kaladin...it seemed more. Specially for Lirin.

Also, so TWoK and WoR took roughly 4 months together? That seems fast.

On previous posts saying summoning Shardblade would incite panic...he can just summon it for a second then let it go. It may not be perfect, but its a lot better than wasting time that he knows they don't have. Plus, if these 2 chapters showed us anything, its that he has embraced the Radiant identity. He is not thrilled to have light eyes, but he is not ashamed of what he is. 

And when you say Kaladin is rash and impulsive, give him a break he is 20 years old . (Although sometimes I want to throttle him too). Just on my WoR reread though, he explicitly says Stormlight makes him more impulsive than normal. His most impulsive moment (4v1 duel) he was practically high on Stormlight. (Which has already been shown as a slight drug).

I did take Kaladin was the favorite kid: I might have wrote something about it, a long time ago. It isn't Lirin and Hesina did not love Tien, but they give a lighteyed name to Kaladin, they promised him a great career and were willing to go far to ensure it happens, they planned to have him marry Laral... What did they do for Tien? They got him an apprenticeship as the carpenter's third apprentice: basically useless. Still, I do think they loved Tien, but they favored Kaladin.

I thought Kaladin's reaction was perfect. I read him as waiting before unraveling his entire bag. He seemed to be observing, a lot, trying to evaluate the people around him. I thought it was very smart of him. I didn't read the punch as impulsive or rash, I read it as something Kaladin thought to do for a long time and decided on doing upon seeing Roshone. Or maybe it was a spur of the moment thing for daring wearing such an outdated coat.