Kinnsayyy Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 ***Spoilers for Chapter 1 and 2 of Oathbringer from Tor's website*** I was wondering who Odium's champion could be, the one with the eyes full of hate. And I feel like it is probably someone who themselves are very hateful. And I was thinking of all the major characters from the books. First of all I thought maybe Sadeas, but there a two major flaws in that. 1, he is dead and his body has been dead for a significant amount of time. 2, he wasn't really fueled by anger. He was scheming and manipulating but he wasnt doing it out of hatred. Taravangian is probably not it either. He is too unstable. Amaram did what he did because he felt it was the right thing to do, or that he was just greedy. But greed and hate aren't exactly the same. It could be Elhokar, because of the whole Jedi fear leads to hate thing. But I think there are other plans for him. I have heard people say Adolin because of the way he killed Sadeas but he didn't really kill him out of spite or hatred. He just realized that he was never gonna stop and so decided he needed to die. Kaladin has had a lot of hate throughout the entire series. Especially towards lighteyes. I could see an arc where he loses Syl for good and becomes consumed by his hatred. However, since he has seen Dalinar, Shallan, and Adolin all be lighteyed and honorable, I feel his views might (slowly) change. All the major bridge four characters seem like bad choices because they all pretty much worship Kaladin and they seem pretty honorable themselves. This made me think of Moash. That scene with him leaving the Shattered Plains cannot be the last time we saw him. And that man had more hate than anyone. I feel like Odium could pick him, and he would gladly accept the power to destroy the lighteyed civilization. Any thoughts? Any other candidates? 1
Amanuensis he/him Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 Moash is a possibility, but it's not the Champion I'm rooting for. We're definitely not done with his character but I can't really imagine him getting that powerful / corrupt, unless there's a lot more to his history than he shared with Kaladin. I've already given my thoughts on this at length in another thread, so I'll just reference you to there, and you can reply here if you want: 1
Nathrangking he/him Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 (edited) Its been speculated on quite a bit with everyone basically being a possible suspect. Edited September 1, 2017 by Nathrangking
The Sovereign Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 Sometimes the obvious and easy choice is actually the right one. Due to Brandon's penchant for misdirection in these types of matters, I wouldn't be surprised if Brandon goes with the obvious choice and falls back on people thinking "no, that is too obvious". I would guess that Odium's champion will be Eshonai. 2
Kinnsayyy Posted September 1, 2017 Author Posted September 1, 2017 I apologize, I was too excited after finding those chapters that I didn't even look and see if anyone else had spoken about this
Amanuensis he/him Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Kinnsayyy said: I apologize, I was too excited after finding those chapters that I didn't even look and see if anyone else had spoken about this No apologies necessary, imo. These chapters have only been out for a few days and there's hundreds of posts to read, a lot of them long. I certainly don't blame you 28 minutes ago, The Sovereign said: Sometimes the obvious and easy choice is actually the right one. Due to Brandon's penchant for misdirection in these types of matters, I wouldn't be surprised if Brandon goes with the obvious choice and falls back on people thinking "no, that is too obvious". I would guess that Odium's champion will be Eshonai. I have two large issues with it being Eshonai: Eshonai is essentially a slave to Odium currently. She's screaming internally while this Stormspren overrides everything that makes her her. Personally if the biggest villain (below Odium himself) is one who's forced to be one because they made a bad choice in the 2nd Book of 10... I'd be disappointed, to say the least. Brandon is better than that. I don't think the Champion is going to Parshendi in general. Most people may interpret this differently, but I believe that choice perpetuates the "us and them" mentality of racism that Brandon seems to be challenging in this series. You see the theme in the interactions between Kaladin and the Lighteyes, where he views them as corrupt but a few like Dalinar and Adolin begin to prove they're not all that bad. You see it in the war between the Alethi and Parshendi, where both sides are fighting because they think they need to, not because they want to, presumably due to the manipulation of forces like Odium. I think characters like Eshonai and Rlain exist to show us and the characters that the Listeners are not evil. They are capable of doing good, just like the humans. If any Parshendi was to be the Champion, my money would be on Venli, but in my opinion she's just a deluded pawn. I also have a third issue with it being bad storytelling, but that's a matter of opinion, so I won't bother citing that Edited September 1, 2017 by Amanuensis 6
Calderis he/him Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 I still like my idea best. Taln as the sleeper agent/champion. 1
Krios Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 I'm on board with the herald part, but I think it's Jezrien. Quote from my Oatbringer Chaper 1-3 post: Does anyone else think, that Odiums Champion could be one of the heralds, who bonded Odiums personal spren? Like Odiums version of the stormfather. It would also explain why the champion casts nine shadows as the unmade are splinters of Odium. I could imagine, that one of the heralds tried to bind Odiums spren in order to weak him, but was overpowered by Odium and is know his puppet. That, in combination with Dalinars apparent earlier addiction to the thrill, could also explain why he looks so familiar to Dalinar. I just assume that most representations (statues, paintings, ...) of the heralds are relativly accurate since Shalash is going around destroying them. My most likely candidate for this is Jezrien. For once he is the leader of the heralds and it would send quite the message, if Odium could corrupt him. Secondly he is associated with protecting and leading, which inversed would be something like destroying and dividing or betray and splinter. Then there are these two quotes: Quote "Better that one man should suffer than ten," Jezrien whispered. He seemed so cold. Like a shadow caused by heat and light falling on someone honourable and true, casting this black imitation behind. Quote It is likely that he had a strong sense of morality at some point, both as leader of men and of the Heralds as seen manifest in his shame in leaving behind his old friend to suffer. His description seems to fit the description of the champion pretty well and he appears to be ashamed, that he betrayed the world. Combined with his believe, that "better that one man should suffer than ten" he could have tried to bind Odium or atleast a part of Odium ( Isn't Odium refered to as the "broken one"? ) to save the world, but ultimately became his pawn. So what do you think? 3
DiamondMind he/him Posted September 1, 2017 Posted September 1, 2017 Krios, if it's a Herald, which is certainly possible, I would put my money on Ishar. He's already heavily implied to be a traitor and he fits much better with your theory of binding an odium spren, being the patron of the Bondsmiths. 2
Guest Edonidd Posted September 2, 2017 Posted September 2, 2017 I think there are 2 possibilities for Odiums champion. Well 3 really, but the 3rd option is that its somebody we havent seen yet. I'm discounting that option, first because it's not acc fun, and second because it would make all speculation pointless. So 2 options. #1 Talenel. Kalak told Jezrien that he couldn't go back, that he would break. He looked in Jezriens eyes and saw an already brokjen man. So Talenel was the only one who went back, and did so for 4500 years. Which is about equal to what earth scientists consider human history. Not sure how that compares to other cycles of desolation. But I think it's possible he broke under the torture and agreed to join Odium if he would just make it stop. That makes it interesting why BS has resisted coming right out and saying "Taln" is him or not. Only problem with the theory is Hoid meeting with Talk. #2 Nohodon. Really more of a guy feeling than any actual evidence for this, but it feels right. BS isn't done with his character, and short if a Herald or world hopper nobody else feels significant enough to be Odiums champion.
Guest Posted September 2, 2017 Posted September 2, 2017 So great to see a threat speaking of the champion without everyone saying it ought to be Adolin: Reddit is festering with those right now and really I just don't get the reasoning.
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted September 2, 2017 Posted September 2, 2017 8 hours ago, Edonidd said: #2 Nohodon. Really more of a guy feeling than any actual evidence for this, but it feels right. BS isn't done with his character, and short if a Herald or world hopper nobody else feels significant enough to be Odiums champion. This is an interesting suggestion which I haven't seen before. This would mean that he is alive/some form of not-dead though, and we would need a feasible explanation for that.
FiveLate Posted September 2, 2017 Posted September 2, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, maxal said: So great to see a threat speaking of the champion without everyone saying it ought to be Adolin: Reddit is festering with those right now and really I just don't get the reasoning. It is definitely Adolin! (Not really, but I couldn't let maxal's expectations down). @Toaster Retribution I remember some people asking questions about Nohodon still being alive and getting RAFO'd. Edited September 2, 2017 by FiveLate Continuation. 1
Amanuensis he/him Posted September 2, 2017 Posted September 2, 2017 9 minutes ago, FiveLate said: It is definitely Adolin! I agree with maxal. Adolin is a big stretch.
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted September 2, 2017 Posted September 2, 2017 12 minutes ago, FiveLate said: It is definitely Adolin! @Toaster Retribution I remember some people asking questions about Nohodon still being alive and getting RAFO'd. Huh, interesting. My guess in that case would be as some sort of cognitive shadow, maybe in the same vein as the Heralds.
Plastic Misting Posted September 2, 2017 Posted September 2, 2017 How about we look at it from a dramatic perspective rather than from a lore perspective? The Champion could be some Herald we barely know anything about, but that wouldn't be very interesting. It would be much more dramatic if it's a character we know very well. Imagine we get a whole book of wind up with flash backs and moral struggle where the reader expects the character to make the honorable/right choice in the end. But instead he makes the selfish/hateful choice. Odin swoops in and we get a Champion. (a bit like the ending of Death Parade episode 9)
Guest Edonidd Posted September 2, 2017 Posted September 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said: This is an interesting suggestion which I haven't seen before. This would mean that he is alive/some form of not-dead though, and we would need a feasible explanation for that. My feasible explanation relies on a couple major leaps but I think possible ones. Supposing only 9/10 orders broke it makes sense to me that Bondsmiths were the non broken order. There is less of them than other orders to hide. Then assuming that Nohodon was a Bondsmith isn't far fetched. KR having a lengthened life span, or at least superspren Bondsmiths isn't too crazy, and has been RAFO'd already. Another option I had thought of but have mostly dismissed now, is that Nohodon was Honors champion. Possibly that he even directly bonded with Honor. Tanavast does tell Dalinar that there are rules they must all follow and that they work with a champion. So what if killing Nohodon, Honors champion would be like killing any other KR, and BS has said there would be no lasting damage to the spren. But if the KR betrayed the oath, it obviously killed the spren... What if that's how Honor was killed, by it's champion betraying his oath and going over to join Odium?
Calderis he/him Posted September 2, 2017 Posted September 2, 2017 2 hours ago, FiveLate said: @Toaster Retribution I remember some people asking questions about Nohodon still being alive and getting RAFO'd. 2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said: Huh, interesting. My guess in that case would be as some sort of cognitive shadow, maybe in the same vein as the Heralds. Eh... I doubt he still is. Before the RAFO Brandon said something along the lines of "Nohadon? Whatever gave you that idea?" Found it http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1052#28 Quote QUESTION So Nohadon's still alive, right? BRANDON SANDERSON ... RAFO! Why would you say that Nohadon's still alive? QUESTION I know he's still alive. BRANDON SANDERSON Why would you say he's still alive? QUESTION It's the perfect trick, that you're gonna bring back Nohadon. Um. It's my feeling about things. BRANDON SANDERSON Um ...
Guest Posted September 2, 2017 Posted September 2, 2017 5 hours ago, FiveLate said: It is definitely Adolin! (Not really, but I couldn't let maxal's expectations down). @Toaster Retribution I remember some people asking questions about Nohodon still being alive and getting RAFO'd. Don't you dare! Have you been on Reddit lately? They are all saying Adolin is the champion, so painful to read. This being said, I think there is an argument to make for Nohadon. I had actually thought about it: Dalinar has seen his eyes within his visions and he would be someone Honor would know. It could have been him, it could have been the "greatest man" ever ended being Odium's Champion. It would be a delightful plot twist.
Watchcry he/him Posted September 3, 2017 Posted September 3, 2017 On 9/1/2017 at 6:17 AM, The Sovereign said: Sometimes the obvious and easy choice is actually the right one. Due to Brandon's penchant for misdirection in these types of matters, I wouldn't be surprised if Brandon goes with the obvious choice and falls back on people thinking "no, that is too obvious". I would guess that Odium's champion will be Eshonai. Or her sister
Watchcry he/him Posted September 3, 2017 Posted September 3, 2017 @Edonidd has the best theories on this topic.
OathKeeper Posted September 3, 2017 Posted September 3, 2017 So I'm sorry to sidetrack a bit, but let's bring cultivation into this. There are 3 shards involved on Roshar, right? Also 3 great spren and 3 bondsmiths. One theory I'm contemplating: Shard/Spren/Bondsmith/Champion Honor/Stormfather/Dalinar/Kaladin Cultivation/Nightwatcher/Taravangian/Moash Odium/???/???/Szeth I won't try and justify the Szeth thing here because it's the part I'm least confident on. I think cultivation is all about surviving and thriving but less interested in the morality of it all, thus different from Honor. I think the verb cultivation involves calculated, targeted nourishing and trimming. Nightwatcher follows this pattern with curses and boons, considering both vital to growth. Taravangian considers himself the gardener of the human race, cutting here and healing there for the sake of progress and survival. Moash is just a vulnerable man who had dabbled in honor and hatred and has been broken seeking each. Taravangian will groom him into a champion as he participates, reluctantly at first, in the diagram. But my main theory is the model above. What do you guys think? 1
Darkness he/him Posted September 4, 2017 Posted September 4, 2017 I personally want szeth to be honor's champion, but I wont get my hopes up. I do believe Taravangian is mostly of cultivation, and has an enormous role to play in the coming books. I wouldn't be surprised to see him unite the nations while Dalinar unites the knights radiant. Taravangian doesnt have bad intentions by any means, and I feel like an alliance with Dalinar would do wonders for his cause, assuming he gives up on killing Dalinar, that is. As for Odium's champion, I have a few ideas, but no working theories. This is the first time I've heard 'Nohadon is the champion', but it would make for a cute twist. Here's a thought, what if the shin conqueror, Sunmaker, and Nohadon were all the same person? And he was one of the heralds (probably Jezrien or Ishar)? 1
Thanatos Posted September 4, 2017 Posted September 4, 2017 As per Way of Kings. Quote ... There are four whom we watch. The first is the surgeon, forced to put aside healing to become a soldier in the most brutal war of our time. The second is the assassin, a murderer who weeps as he kills. The third is the liar, a young woman who wears a scholar's mantle over the heart of a thief. The last is the highprince, a warlord whose eyes have opened to the past as his thirst for battle wanes. The world can change. Surgebinding and Shardwielding can return; the magics of ancient days can become ours again. These four people are key. One of them may redeem us. And one of them will destroy us. I think one of the four will be Odiums Champion. My guess is Kaladin.
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