[OB] Oathbringer Chapter 1-3

[Secret Ardent Man]

Am I the only one who was incredibly disappointed at Lopen's two-armed reveal? I guess since it was from Dalinar's perspective it makes sense that he would be an afterthought, but I'm really excited for the first Kaladin/Lopen scene where Lopen has both arms! 

[Darkness]

25 minutes ago, Secret Ardent Man said:

Am I the only one who was incredibly disappointed at Lopen's two-armed reveal? I guess since it was from Dalinar's perspective it makes sense that he would be an afterthought, but I'm really excited for the first Kaladin/Lopen scene where Lopen has both arms! 

you and me both

I fully expect some amazing two-armed-herdazian jokes now.

[Fleet]

Hey everyone! Long time lurker here, second time poster, so I read the first three Oathbringer chapters and I knew I HAD to post my thoughts.

So I've read through the discussion and I have a pretty firm opinion on Odium's Champion with the eyes and stuff, so here goes:

The familiarity Dalinar sees in the eyes is almost certainly The Thrill - and the reason it is so familiar is because he used to be practically addicted to it. 

Quote

“I cannot see the future completely. Cultivation, she is better at it than I. It’s as if the future is a shattering window. The further you look, the more pieces that window breaks into. The near future can be anticipated, but the distant future … I can only guess.”

Tanavast himself says that he can't tell how the distant future will play out, and we can assume that these visions were recorded hundreds, if not, thousands of years ago (after the Recreance at least). Therefor, it is unreasonable to assume that Honor could have known the exact  person who would become the champion. 

And now for my tinfoil hat crazy theory on the golden light:

For the most part, the people that have posted here have agreed on two separate things - one, that the golden light's description is very similar to that of the light in Dalinar's vision/dream at the end of WoR, and two, that the dream light was likely of cultivation. These two givens lead me to my theory - what if the golden light is the power/representation of the shard cultivation corrupted and bent to Odium's will?

We know this vision is of Honor's fears, basically meaning this is the worst possible outcome, and what could be worse than the Rosharians having to deal with the combined might of two different Shards?

There's a WoB out there somewhere that says there is Shard that is currently opposing Odium, and people have taken that to mean Cultivation is trying to push Rayse back. Now this assumption may not even be correct in the first place, but if  it is true then maybe through some trickery Odium either convinced Cultivation to help him, killed the holder of cultivation and put someone there to help him in the short term, or he took up the power of cultivation himself (be it through merging the powers, or taking them seperately).

TLDR Honor's worst case is scenario is that Odium is getting helped out by some currupted version of Shard Cultivation. 

*taking off the hat*

That's my theory, give me thoughts/feedback, tell me if I'm being presumptuous or jumping to any conclusions, or if I'm just being dumb and missing something obvious.

EDIT: Fixing Typos

 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Fleet

[Calderis]

@Fleet we know that there have only ever been three shards on Roshar. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=836#49

Quote

ZAS

So the number of Shards that have been on Roshar is three, correct?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Correct.

ZAS

People have been thrown by you saying that Odium is not native to Roshar.

BRANDON

Odium is not native, that's the thing. Are any of them native? So if you dig the deeper question, are any of them native, ehhh, none of them are native to the planets you've seen so far. What I probably should've said to be more precise is that Honor and Cultivation were there long before Odium showed up.

If Cultivation is helping Odium, and Honor is splintered, what shard is opposing Odium? 

Additionally, Odium would not pick up another Shard. He does not want to change his intent, and holding a second shard would do that. He does not want anyone else to have a Shard either, that's why he splinters them, to keep anyone else from picking them up. 

Mistborn spoilers. 

Spoiler

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=675#12

Quote

QUESTION

So Ruin and Preservation combine. When Odium slays the Shardbearers, why doesn’t he absorb the enemy Shards?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Because that would actually change the way he views the world. The Shard would actually start to influence him, and could actually ruin who he views himself as being. So instead of combining them all, his goal is to destroy them all and be the only one left at his power level.

QUESTION

So by his nature, he can't combine?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I mean he could, but it would change his nature. So he won't.

 

Sorry to shoot you down. But I don't think it's possible. 

[Krios]

Does anyone else think, that Odiums Champion could be one of the heralds, who bonded Odiums personal spren? Like Odiums version of the stormfather. It would also explain why the champion casts nine shadows as the unmade are splinters of Odium. I could imagine, that one of the heralds tried to bind Odiums spren in order to weak him, but was overpowered by Odium and is know his puppet. That, in combination with Dalinars apparent earlier addiction to the thrill, could also explain why he looks so familiar to Dalinar. I just assume that most representations (statues, paintings, ...) of the heralds are relativly accurate since Shalash is going around destroying them.

My most likely candidate for this is Jezrien. For once he is the leader of the heralds and it would send quite the message, if Odium could corrupt him. Secondly he is associated with protecting and leading, which inversed would be something like destroying and dividing or betray and splinter.

Then there are these two quotes:

Quote

"Better that one man should suffer than ten," Jezrien whispered. He seemed so cold. Like a shadow caused by heat and light falling on someone honourable and true, casting this black imitation behind.

Quote

It is likely that he had a strong sense of morality at some point, both as leader of men and of the Heralds as seen manifest in his shame in leaving behind his old friend to suffer.

His description seems to fit the description of the champion pretty well and he appears to be ashamed, that he betrayed the world. Combined with his believe, that "better that one man should suffer than ten" he could have tried to bind Odium or atleast a part of Odium ( Isn't Odium refered to as the "broken one"? ) to save the world, but ultimately became his pawn.

So what do you think?

[ICanDream]

So here's what I think of these chapters.

-They didn't seem very fleshed out, or at least not as I would have wanted. I feel as though the prose was made mainly of around two sentence paragraphs, which doesn't allow for the typical stormlight depth that I have come to appreciate. Also I felt as though things weren't dealt with using a good weight, if you understand what I mean. For instance, Sadeas. His death was just joked about and things, when the death of a highprince should a huge event. I think Dalinar should've gathered the Highprinces after discovering the Sadeas or something as this is a massive event. For me, it just wasn't very satisfying. Other things, like Lopen having two arms weren't expanded on. I feel these are like first draft chapters, not Stormlight ones.

-Young Dalinar is a ****ing monster

(note: these are good chapters still. I could not write better. I apologise if I came across as overly critical)

[FiveLate]

10 tiers of 18 floors each.  I knew I had seen the number 18 before somewhere in Roshar, but I couldn't remember where.  

I just found it, Chasmfiends have 18 limbs.  14 legs and 4 arms.

Anyone spot any other 18s?

[soyperson]

Just now, FiveLate said:

10 tiers of 18 floors each.  I knew I had seen the number 18 before somewhere in Roshar, but I couldn't remember where.  

I just found it, Chasmfiends have 18 limbs.  14 legs and 4 arms.

Anyone spot any other 18s?

It's 9 x 2, and 9 is Odium/Braize's number, but that's all that comes to mind currently.

[Fleet]

No worries @Calderis, it was just good for thought. But I will say, the fact that there are three Shards on Roshar doesn't necessarily mean that light isn't Cultivation. That being said, however, I agree with you about the nature of the Shard of Odium and how he wouldn't work with another Shard.

Now my thoughts on past Dalinar are somewhat divergent from everyone else's. I think that yes, Dalinar may have been brutal in battle, but off the battlefield he wasn't so bad. Dalinar wasn't the one who was executing the leaders and putting their heads on spears, Dalinar wasn't the one branding slaves and raping the women - that was Sadeas and Gavilar. Dalinar's role was primarily as a general, not a politician. 

Also, when evaluating the morality of Dalinar's actions, you need to consider the time. Modern ethics do not apply to him. The Alethi are a warlike people, and Dalinar was just the best at it. 

Now don't get me wrong, Dalinar was a brutal warlord, but I think we are judging him too much along modern lines, and not accounting for his peoples' culture, which puts emphasis on violence and killing.

[Jaconis]

9 hours ago, ICanDream said:

So here's what I think of these chapters.

-They didn't seem very fleshed out, or at least not as I would have wanted. I feel as though the prose was made mainly of around two sentence paragraphs, which doesn't allow for the typical stormlight depth that I have come to appreciate. Also I felt as though things weren't dealt with using a good weight, if you understand what I mean. For instance, Sadeas. His death was just joked about and things, when the death of a highprince should a huge event. I think Dalinar should've gathered the Highprinces after discovering the Sadeas or something as this is a massive event. For me, it just wasn't very satisfying. Other things, like Lopen having two arms weren't expanded on. I feel these are like first draft chapters, not Stormlight ones.

There's another thread here that I think helps explain people's feelings about these chapter. They are roughly half (or less) the length of the first chapters of the other Stormlight books. I think this explains why they feel strange. 

I definitely felt like they were short, but I thought that was just because I was desperate for more. If they were in fact significantly shorter than previously, it may explain why they feel less...complicated? than previous books. 

[Toaster Retribution]

3 hours ago, Fleet said:

No worries @Calderis, it was just good for thought. But I will say, the fact that there are three Shards on Roshar doesn't necessarily mean that light isn't Cultivation. That being said, however, I agree with you about the nature of the Shard of Odium and how he wouldn't work with another Shard.

Now my thoughts on past Dalinar are somewhat divergent from everyone else's. I think that yes, Dalinar may have been brutal in battle, but off the battlefield he wasn't so bad. Dalinar wasn't the one who was executing the leaders and putting their heads on spears, Dalinar wasn't the one branding slaves and raping the women - that was Sadeas and Gavilar. Dalinar's role was primarily as a general, not a politician. 

Also, when evaluating the morality of Dalinar's actions, you need to consider the time. Modern ethics do not apply to him. The Alethi are a warlike people, and Dalinar was just the best at it. 

Now don't get me wrong, Dalinar was a brutal warlord, but I think we are judging him too much along modern lines, and not accounting for his peoples' culture, which puts emphasis on violence and killing.

We don't know how Dalinar usually behaved after battles though. He only stopped the pillaging because of his promise to the archer. If it hadn't been for that, he might have been torching houses and raping women for all we know. He was also completely okay with the men under his command doing stuff like this, so it doesn't appear to bother him much. 

@Krios I still don't think that Dalinar saw a specific person in that shardplate, more what Odiums champion would be in general. I do like the idea of a Herald being the champion though. I'd much rather have that than Eshonai or Szeth. I would put my money on the champion being either Jezrien or Taln, possibly Chana because it would be cool.

[Nathrangking]

@Krios that theory would be epic and most ironic imagine Honor's Champion Kaladin facing off against his Herald Jezrien. Battle of the windrunners what a battle it would be!!

Edited September 1, 2017 by Nathrangking

[Fleet]

@Toaster Retribution Good point, I didn't think of it that way 

@Krios I love the idea, and if also fits with the vision being of Honor's worst case scenario, and this theory bypasses the argument about Tanavast not being able to know the people of the distant future. I assume that Dalinar's recognition of the eyes was just the Thrill in your scenario, right? My best guess would be that either Jezrien or Ishar is he champion. I say these two because in the prologue to The Wy of Kings there is some imagery for Jezrien that could be considered foreshadow, 

Quote

There, in Jezrien’s eyes, Kalak saw anguish and grief. Perhaps even cowardice. This was a man hanging from a cliff by a thread.

And for Ishar, he is the patron of the Bondsmiths, and they are supposed to be the ones who unite instead of divide and bring men together, and who better to corrupt than their leader? Also, some of Ishar's plans and ideas have been kind of morally grey.

Quote

“Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations.”

-Jezrien in the Prologue of tWoK

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“Unfortunately, no,” Darkness said. “I once thought as you, but Ishar made the truth clear to me. If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths. Without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds. That would cause a Desolation, and even a small chance that the world will be destroyed is a risk that we cannot take. Absolute fidelity to the mission Ishar gave us—the greater law of protecting Roshar—is required.”

-Nalan in Edgedancer

 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Fleet

[FollowYourMuse]

19 hours ago, Secret Ardent Man said:

Am I the only one who was incredibly disappointed at Lopen's two-armed reveal? I guess since it was from Dalinar's perspective it makes sense that he would be an afterthought, but I'm really excited for the first Kaladin/Lopen scene where Lopen has both arms! 

No, you are not the only one - this should have been a Bridge 4 reveal with if not Kaladin since he is gone then another Bridge 4 POV. Its too accepted - Gee being a squire and stormlight grew a new arm! this needed more! 

[ccstat]

I read the vision again, and noticed an oddity that hasn't been mentioned yet. Both during and after the vision, the Stormfather is using his inside voice (depicted with italics), but the last thing before the vision shatters is a line from someone speaking in all caps.

Quote

The Stormfather rumbled. It is time to go.

“No,” Dalinar said, standing atop the rubble. “Leave me.”

But—

“Let me feel it!”

The wave of destruction struck, [...] he saw something.

A golden light, brilliant yet terrible. Standing before it, a dark figure in black Shardplate. 

[...]

This was the enemy’s champion. And he was coming.

UNITE THEM. QUICKLY.

Dalinar gasped as the vision shattered. 

I'm not sure whether the Stormfather interpreted Dalinar's demand "leave me" as "don't pull me out yet" or "go away." He didn't see the light or the figure, but we can't say for sure if that's because it came from another Shard or because he ducked out of the vision early. Either way, I don't think he suddenly decided to yell "UNITE THEM" with no context just as the vision ends. That was someone else.

To me, this is the best evidence for the theory proposed earlier in this thread that Cultivation inserted that "champion" sequence into the end of the vision. 

(And just to reiterate, there is plenty of room for misinterpretation here. Dalinar is the one who assumes the figure is a champion, and the Stormfather identifies Odium and the Unmade from Dalinar's description since he couldn't see that part. I'm not sure what parts I trust yet, but I personally would be surprised if all of Dalinar's chapter one conclusions are correct.)

[Agent34]

Could the one yelling to unite them be Tanavast in the vision?

[ccstat]

16 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

Could the one yelling to unite them be Tanavast in the vision?

I considered that, but I don't think so. The corresponding vision in WoK (ch 75) ends after the Everstorm blows through, with Honor calmly saying he is dead. There's no yelling or "unite them" instructions while the storm is destroying things. When Honor is present in the vision he seems to speak normally, and though his disembodied voice is described as booming, it isn't shown in all caps.

[+Wax]

This is great... so much discussion and its sunday here.  So, back to a new chapter release soon!

[ParadoxicalZen]

@ccstat I forgot about that part. I agree that it could be and most likely was, Cultivation. She is far better at Future sight than Honour was so the detail could have been added. We also don't know if Honour crafted these visions alone or if he had asked Cultivation for a little help with the last one maybe. It is bears mentioning that as Dalinar increases his bond with the Storm father, he may simply be able to do more than just rewind a reposition himself in these visions.

We do know she is still resisting/fighting Odium in some fashion or anoither , despite having given up on humanity, but perhaps she hadn't given up on the Surgrbinders/Radiants quite yet. Whether she is able to do much, either by choice or otherwise, that little bit at the end may be all she can do.

Edited September 3, 2017 by ParadoxicalZen

[Frostlander]

This came up briefly on Wednesday (I think), but I just can't help but absolutely cringe every time Dalinar "interprets" his visions. When much of the scope of the book was focused on Alethi political infighting, Dalinar wrongly concluded that he had to unite the highprinces. Now that we've pulled back to a more continental view, he just knows that he has to unite Roshar.

Aside from the too-easy timing early in the book, I think he is totally wrong about his role. Their name says they literally forge bonds, and I think Bondsmiths help regulate the more magic-based bonds on Roshar somehow. This may include bonding with mega-spren who control things like Roshar's ecosystem or who offer Bondsmiths access to certain powers related to the Cognitive Realm. (I'm not sure if the Spiritual Realm factors into this.)

To use an imperfect Earth analogy, I see a system that includes more "spiritual" (not necessarily Spiritual Realm!) and more "temporal" leaders, kind of like medieval theory. (There may be a more accurate non-European analogy.) Why have a guiding Ishar and a kingly Jezrien? One represents an order that deals with the health of Roshar's bonds and the other represents a more "earthly" political leadership. 

Dalinar is going to have to learn quickly and accept that his role is not political unification. That's not what his powers are for and his flashbacks, I think, will reinforce how wrong this is to the readers. This is not really brand new speculation, but I think we may want to assume he is totally not supposed to unite Roshar unless proven otherwise.

[Nymeros]

Pretty sure the voice was just good old Stormfather pulling out his bone rattling voice. I think Dalimar would notice and comment on some random woman screaming at him out of nowhere.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Nymeros

[hypatia]

What rubs me wrong in the second chapter is that Dalinar tries to make up Urithiru as an enclave of Alethkar.

This is perhaps acceptable in this interim time, but if he really wants to rebuilt the Knight Radiants, he will have to overcome the social rules of Alethkar or any other country.

As deeply as he is rooted in this rules, he can't let them be a part in Urithiru - with time we don't need Highprinces of whatever who aren't even Radiants.

He will have to accept fighting women without safehand, reading men, a lowly streeturchin as an equal to himself.

And as a Bondsmith he will have to make it sure, that every Radiant will also accept these things - there won't be a differance between Brighteyes or Darkeyes.

I think this can be the way to unite Roshar - if he is able to build up a group of people who stop to see themselves as Alethi, Azish, Shin or whatelse, who don't transfer the quarrels of the 'outerworld' into the Radiants, this will spread with time over Roshar and will really unite them.

I only hope there will be enough time....

Edited September 3, 2017 by hypatia

[Toaster Retribution]

By the way guys, is it just me or is Dalinar kind of ordering the Stormfather around? He feels a bit like Wyndle almost. He says something, Dalinar wants something else and Stormfather grudgingly goes along with it.

I almost find Stormfather to be unintentionally funny sometimes.

[WhiteLeeopard]

7 hours ago, hypatia said:

What rubs me wrong in the second chapter is that Dalinar tries to make up Urithiru as an enclave of Alethkar.

This is perhaps acceptable in this interim time, but if he really wants to rebuilt the Knight Radiants, he will have to overcome the social rules of Alethkar or any other country.

As deeply as he is rooted in this rules, he can't let them be a part in Urithiru - with time we don't need Highprinces of whatever who aren't even Radiants.

He will have to accept fighting women without safehand, reading men, a lowly streeturchin as an equal to himself.

And as a Bondsmith he will have to make it sure, that every Radiant will also accept these things - there won't be a differance between Brighteyes or Darkeyes.

I think this can be the way to unite Roshar - if he is able to build up a group of people who stop to see themselves as Alethi, Azish, Shin or whatelse, who don't transfer the quarrels of the 'outerworld' into the Radiants, this will spread with time over Roshar and will really unite them.

I only hope there will be enough time....

This is one of the biggest issues I've had with Dalinar. The Alethi should be kicked out of Urithiru, or at the least reinforced that they are just guests there. I understand with 10 (or less) proto radiants in the world that isn't something which can happen immediately, but I'd be very dissapointed if Dalinar actually tries to reinforce alethi laws in Urithiru. 

I also wouldn't be surprised if his main role is to unite the KR (obviously). As such, things certainly seem pointed to one of the biggest conflicts of Dalinar being having to welcome, or at the least, accept the man that killed his brother. Whether Roshar as a whole should be brought under control too remains to be seen. Then again, better to bring Roshar under them than to let T get it. 

A final point on KR roles, is that Kaladin may be forced to be the final leader. Which would certainly be funny to see the lighteyes in shock over this. As I wouldn't be surprised if Kaladin goes to efforts to let his eyes be dark now and then. Even for Dalinar this would be an adjustment.

[retrorocket1]

I kinda figured dalinar would be the leader and kalidin not the leader but honor's champion. @WhiteLeeopard