Why were the desolations so destructive?

[Steeldancer he/him]

I just finished a re-read of WoK and WoR. So I have a couple things I'm going to throw out there.

  I am so confused how entire nations were destroyed by these desolations. What we've seen just doesn't seem enough to cause the utter destruction of a civilization's roots. Even giant stone giants don't seem... destructive enough. I feel like there is something more to the desolations that we haven't seen very much of. Something more than the conflict between Radiants and Voidbringers. Speaking of which, how did 10 Heralds ever win against the voidbringers before the Radiants came along? 10 people against a lot of destructive magical hate machines seems not enough. Again, I think there are some more pieces to the puzzle than we currently have. 

I also noticed that Highprince Hatham has a Ryshadium. That says something about his character, and being an honorable person. Probably. 

The final vision that Dalinar has continues to intrigue me. The warmth and everything just feels like something else was going on. It wasn't from the stormfather... so I think something else was going on. 

I also gained a much better appreciation of how much hate is in the land of roshar. Between many wars, and just general unrest apart from the actual events of the series, I think Roshar has been seriously inundated with the power of Hate. 

[maxal she/her]

7 minutes ago, Flash said:

I just finished a re-read of WoK and WoR. So I have a couple things I'm going to throw out there.

  I am so confused how entire nations were destroyed by these desolations. What we've seen just doesn't seem enough to cause the utter destruction of a civilization's roots. Even giant stone giants don't seem... destructive enough. I feel like there is something more to the desolations that we haven't seen very much of. Something more than the conflict between Radiants and Voidbringers. Speaking of which, how did 10 Heralds ever win against the voidbringers before the Radiants came along? 10 people against a lot of destructive magical hate machines seems not enough. Again, I think there are some more pieces to the puzzle than we currently have. 

I agree we have only been giving partial pieces of the puzzle. How were Desolation as destructive as they seem to have been? This is yet to be seen, but I say we have seen nothing so far. It took Adolin's clever thinking for them to win the Plateau fight, how are they going to win against stronger, better organized foes? They won't always have Adolin to out-think their opponents, they have only four Radiants, so how will it play out? I would also argue giants made of stones are terrible forces to be reckon with in a world not possessing any fire power nor bombs. How do they kill them?

19 minutes ago, Flash said:

I also noticed that Highprince Hatham has a Ryshadium. That says something about his character, and being an honorable person. Probably. 

Brandon said we should pay moderate attention to Highprince Hatham. I would however state Rhysadium weren't exclusive to the Radiants: one can bond a Rhysadium without being a Radiant. Adolin had a Rhysadium and he isn't a Radiant too.

 

[Nathrangking he/him]

31 minutes ago, maxal said:

I agree we have only been giving partial pieces of the puzzle. How were Desolation as destructive as they seem to have been? This is yet to be seen, but I say we have seen nothing so far. It took Adolin's clever thinking for them to win the Plateau fight, how are they going to win against stronger, better organized foes? They won't always have Adolin to out-think their opponents, they have only four Radiants, so how will it play out? I would also argue giants made of stones are terrible forces to be reckon with in a world not possessing any fire power nor bombs. How do they kill them?

 

All this is true yet there is still much more to consider. For instance we do not have numbers on how many voidbringers there were during the desolations. A small group smuggled into capital cities laying waste to governments... would set mankind back quite a bit. Also what if they focused on grain storage depots, armories... if they took out specialists in the chaos much wisdom would well be lost and the destruction would be most severe.

[+Extesian he/him]

Thunderclasts are basically evil awakened stone. I'm more amazed a Desolation was ever survived, rather than how it was so devastating. I don't see anything but a Shardblade even affecting a thunderclast.

[AbsentKeeper he/him]

1 hour ago, Flash said:

I am so confused how entire nations were destroyed by these desolations. What we've seen just doesn't seem enough to cause the utter destruction of a civilization's roots. Even giant stone giants don't seem... destructive enough. I feel like there is something more to the desolations that we haven't seen very much of.

There is definitely more that we haven't seen much of yet. In one of the first visons that Dalinar has in WoK he fights against something called the Midnight Essence, and one of the radiants that saves the whole town from being slaughtered by them refers to them as one of the Ten Deaths. Presumably, there are seven other creatures just as destructive as Thunderclasts, Essence, and the Voidbringer Parshendi.

Edit: Its also possible the Parshendi don't even count in that number, so maybe eight more?

Edited August 28, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Calderis he/him]

14 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

All this is true yet there is still much more to consider. For instance we do not have numbers on how many voidbringers there were during the desolations. A small group smuggled into capital cities laying waste to governments... would set mankind back quite a bit. Also what if they focused on grain storage depots, armories... if they took out specialists in the chaos much wisdom would well be lost and the destruction would be most severe.

Prior to the last desolation and the enslavement of the Parshendi, were Parshmen even a thing? I don't think there was any "smuggling them in" 

4 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Thunderclasts are basically evil awakened stone. I'm more amazed a Desolation was ever survived, rather than how it was so devastating. I don't see anything but a Shardblade even affecting a thunderclast.

Division, soulcasting and Shardblades make the difference here I think.

4 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

There is definitely more that we haven't seen much of yet. In one of the first visons that Dalinar has in WoK he fights against something called the Midnight Essence, and one of the radiants that saves the whole town from being slaughtered by them refers to them as one of the Ten Deaths. Presumably, there are seven other creatures just as destructive as Thunderclasts, Essence, and the Voidbringer Parshendi.

This is the key here I think. We don't even know what the "Ten deaths" were. Trying to say anything other than the Midnight Essence is one of them... Maybe? We have at least 7 possibly 9 completely unknown factors. 

And all this ignores the fact that we've yet to see Voidbinding and who or what uses it. 

The fact that the Heralds stood against the desolations without the Knights in the beginning is the strongest evidence available that the presence of surgebinders made the desolations worse. I can't imagine how the Heralds could possibly stand alone against the same threat level as they regularly died facing with literally thousands of Radiants

[maxal she/her]

15 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Thunderclasts are basically evil awakened stone. I'm more amazed a Desolation was ever survived, rather than how it was so devastating. I don't see anything but a Shardblade even affecting a thunderclast.

I have been thinking on how they could realistically defeat a Thunderclast. My idea what they had to have a vulnerable spot, one place where you can strike them with your Shardblade and dismember them. The problem is, even if I am right, how the heck are you plunging your Shardblade into a 100 feet tall stone creature which can crush even Shardbearers as if they were cockroaches?

I am very keen in seeing how they will kill them I am assuming Kaladin will figure it out, but the human toll will be huge. I can see one of those creature able to destroy every single men within Dalinar's armies before it is stopped.

[Nathrangking he/him]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Prior to the last desolation and the enslavement of the Parshendi, were Parshmen even a thing? I don't think there was any "smuggling them in" 

 @Calderis There would not need to be assuming that something like say smokeform is a form of Odium. They would sneak in do the damage get out all without incurring harm to themselves. Mind you they could also be quick amd stealthy in the dead of night do their thing and be gone.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Nathrangking

[+Extesian he/him]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 

The fact that the Heralds stood against the desolations without the Knights in the beginning is the strongest evidence available that the presence of surgebinders made the desolations worse. I can't imagine how the Heralds could possibly stand alone against the same threat level as they regularly died facing with literally thousands of Radiants

This. I agree. 

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

There would not need to be assuming that something like say smokeform is a form of Odium. They would sneak in do the damage get out all without incurring harm to themselves. Mind you they could also be quick amd stealthy in the dead of night do their thing and be gone.

That makes more sense. I don't think of a stealth mission as smuggling, though I suppose the term does apply to more than just goods. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

I have got to agree with calderis there. Somehow the surgebinders did make things worse. Perhaps it even gave odium an idea or something. 

In other news, I can't find Chana. I combed the book. I do have one last strategy: list every female character and eliminate them one by one. That'll take a while. 

[Killik he/him]

I recall a thread here that quoted a WoB (I think) mentioning how strongly the desolations were tied to the Heralds being released to Roshar. 

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

The fact that the Heralds stood against the desolations without the Knights in the beginning is the strongest evidence available that the presence of surgebinders made the desolations worse. I can't imagine how the Heralds could possibly stand alone against the same threat level as they regularly died facing with literally thousands of Radiants

I suspect that prior to the Radiants, the Heralds fought more of a gorilla warfare style.  Quick skirmishes attempting to stay alive as long as possible but relatively short desolations.  With so few defending Roshar however, even these short desolations were worthy of the name.  As the Radiants came into play the desolations grew longer and more destructive.  I agree that the addition of the surgebinders made them worse as Odium would have most certainly worked to counter them.  This is where I see the voidbinding coming in to play.

For all of the desolations though, short or long, they end when the Heralds die and return to Braize.  That I think is the key to how humanity survived.  The Heralds attempted each time to fight and defeat Odium, but were eventually overwhelmed and returned to Braize ending the fight, leaving some humanity to continue on.

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

The fact that the Heralds stood against the desolations without the Knights in the beginning is the strongest evidence available that the presence of surgebinders made the desolations worse.

So you're saying that the Recreance was the KR figuring this out?

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

So you're saying that the Recreance was the KR figuring this out?

I think it's a part of it. It definitely doesn't explain everything. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

That being the case then things are about to get so much worse because odium will turn up the heat. It will also cause some immediate dissension within the ranks if this is true and comes out. Would also make Nale correct *gasp*.

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

It wouldn't necessarily make Nale and Ishar correct, because Ishar said that surgebinders might bring a new desolation, not that they'd make an already existing one worse. But more surgebinders = bigger desolations may be part of N and I's reasoning.

[Nathrangking he/him]

18 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

It wouldn't necessarily make Nale and Ishar correct, because Ishar said that surgebinders might bring a new desolation, not that they'd make an already existing one worse. But more surgebinders = bigger desolations may be part of N and I's reasoning.

The question of definition may be crucial here. What indicates the true start of the desolation. The coming of the Everstorm as the precipitating factor is new in their eyes the parshendi war+ everything else that was going on may well have appeared to them to be the early stages of a Desolation.

[Weltall]

Randomly on the thunderclast discussion, Dalinar's vision implies that they can be harmed by ordinary humans with hammers. I don't want to know what the death toll would look like after an encounter but with enough people bashing away it seems like they can be stopped without needing Shardblades. My guess is that you'd first try to smash one of the legs to slow it down, then do the same to the remaining limbs while it's at least sort of crippled, then go for whatever amounts to a killing blow against one of the things.

On 8/27/2017 at 5:43 PM, Flash said:

  I am so confused how entire nations were destroyed by these desolations. What we've seen just doesn't seem enough to cause the utter destruction of a civilization's roots.

Dalinar's vision of Presumably!Nohadon points out that at the end of one desolation, Yelig-nar deliberately targeted everyone in the capital who could write. Imagine that there's standing instructions for Odium's forces to destroy the sorts of things that give continuity to a civilization and it's easier to imagine how these things could become so devastating.

[Killik he/him]

41 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Randomly on the thunderclast discussion, Dalinar's vision implies that they can be harmed by ordinary humans with hammers. I don't want to know what the death toll would look like after an encounter...

Just think of the Parshendi death count as they are attempting to bring down Dalinar and Adolin.  Not only would the Thunderclast have a presumably much higher combat thresh hold than one Shardbearer, but the Parshendi are stronger and more Agile than humans.  Dalinar and Adolin together can wade through hundreds of Parshendi.  I imagine one Thunderclast could probably devastate an entire battalion.   

46 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Dalinar's vision of Presumably!Nohadon points out that at the end of one desolation, Yelig-nar deliberately targeted everyone in the capital who could write. Imagine that there's standing instructions for Odium's forces to destroy the sorts of things that give continuity to a civilization and it's easier to imagine how these things could become so devastating.

 deliberately targeting everyone who can write and presumably read.  Kind of makes me wonder if the author of "Arts and Majesty" was influenced by Odium or possibly Yelig-nar or some other Unmade to make it easier for a desolation to target those individuals.  Much easier to say "kill all the females" than "kill anyone that can read/write".

[Nymeros]

On 8/27/2017 at 8:43 PM, Flash said:

What we've seen just doesn't seem enough to cause the utter destruction of a civilization's roots. Even giant stone giants don't seem... destructive enough. I feel like there is something more to the desolations that we haven't seen very much of. 

........well yeah.

Brandon clearly didn't his play all his cards in the first book. As he would say, he has to something to write about and wow the readers with. Just be patient.

[kaellok he/him]

On 8/27/2017 at 7:24 PM, Calderis said:

The fact that the Heralds stood against the desolations without the Knights in the beginning is the strongest evidence available that the presence of surgebinders made the desolations worse. I can't imagine how the Heralds could possibly stand alone against the same threat level as they regularly died facing with literally thousands of Radiants

I find it more likely that the advent of the Radiants caused Odium to be more Invested in the system in order to counter the threat, which resulted in stronger/deadlier Desolations overall.  It's a small change from what you have written, but I think an important one.  I see no indication or reason to expect that a Desolation will be less terrible just because there are fewer Surgebinders this time around.

As for regular people fighting and defeating a thunderclast, I'm sure it's possible--people armed with alcohol, fire, and hammers have taken out tanks.  At great cost, and under the right circumstances of course, but it's still possible.  The speed that they can attack with is potentially a great limiter, as well as the intelligence behind those attacks.  Of course, the overall numbers of them would determine how they are used.  If there's dozens or low hundreds, then they would likely be mostly used for assaulting cities and heavy fortifications; if there's thousands, then they'll make heavy cavalry charges insignificant in comparison as they rip through entire armies.

[Killik he/him]

On 8/27/2017 at 8:43 PM, Flash said:

...

  I am so confused how entire nations were destroyed by these desolations. What we've seen just doesn't seem enough to cause the utter destruction of a civilization's roots. Even giant stone giants don't seem... destructive enough. I feel like there is something more to the desolations that we haven't seen very much of. Something more than the conflict between Radiants and Voidbringers.

Another though just occurred to me.  True we have not seen the destruction in action, but Stormseat seems like the answer you are looking for.  Something completely wiped out the city, (presumably all those living there), and a huge area surrounding the city.  Think atomic bomb level.  Granted this is the only area we've been shown like this but it proves destruction on a "desolation" level.

[Hyarmenatan]

As for the magnitude of desolations being stronger / more devastating when more Radiants were around :

It's possible that the part of Honor being 'crafty' was forcing Odium to follow some simple, honorable rules, like ' I am only allowed to send so many voidspren / thunderclasts / deadlyfellows as humanity can'. That's why there are 10 heralds, 10 Orders vs 10 Deaths and XX types of voidspren. The goal of Honor craftiness was to exactly match fighting forces. His Intent would also forbid Him from using any unfair advantage against Odium. When there appeared spren trying to mimic Surges of Heralds, Odium was automatically allowed to send more of his troops to bring the balance back and give a fair fight. 

Radiants learnt of that, hence the Recreance. 

[FiveLate]

@Flash

We also don't know if all of the 10 deaths were part of the fight initially, the first desolation might not have had any Unmade yet...Aimians seem quite capable as well.  And soulcasters...just soulcast that Thunderclast to smoke....it seems like the only reason to make a 3 smokestone soulcaster to me.

Edited August 31, 2017 by FiveLate

[Ciridae]

1 hour ago, Hyarmenatan said:

As for the magnitude of desolations being stronger / more devastating when more Radiants were around :

It's possible that the part of Honor being 'crafty' was forcing Odium to follow some simple, honorable rules, like ' I am only allowed to send so many voidspren / thunderclasts / deadlyfellows as humanity can'. That's why there are 10 heralds, 10 Orders vs 10 Deaths and XX types of voidspren. The goal of Honor craftiness was to exactly match fighting forces. His Intent would also forbid Him from using any unfair advantage against Odium. When there appeared spren trying to mimic Surges of Heralds, Odium was automatically allowed to send more of his troops to bring the balance back and give a fair fight. 

Radiants learnt of that, hence the Recreance. 

Yes, I like this. Honor and Cultivation probably wanted to beat Odium in a small stand-in confrontation between the Heralds and whatever Odium put to the table. There probably was some kind of deal that transformed the confrontation from a shard vs. shard conflict to a stand-in conflict fought between splinters on Roshar. An idea discussed on another thread that fits perfectly here, (thanks @Crucible of Shards ) Odium didn't want to lose too much power in this conflict, so instead of creating super-splinters of his own he corrupts existing super spren, the dawnsingers, to create the unmade. The heralds must have won the first couple times, but it was probably a close call.

At one point the spren decide to help, creating radiants. Here I don't think that Odium was forced to match the numbers, he can field as many splinters as he wants, but until that point he was probably trying to beat the Heralds as efficiently as possible. He didn't want to splinter off too much of his power because he knew that once he was done beating Honor's ten champions and Honor himself, he would still have to face Cultivation.

But suddenly the confrontation turns from a battle between a few individuals to a full blown desolation as Odium has to match what the Radiants can do somehow to stand any chance at all. For him it's either commit in full force, or be trapped impotently in the Rosharan system. So he creates thousands of tiny splinters, not large enough to be very intelligent, but enough to hijack the Listeners. 

Desolation after desolation is won by humanity, until the heralds give up and leave. Fast forward to the times of the Recreance. Whatever the Radiants were fighting at the time (I still think it was a group of listeners that found and bonded a cluster of voidspren, like Nale said) could have convinced them that a new desolation had started. They figure out the secret that radiants were never supposed to have existed and that it is their fault that desolations have grown to the size they have.

They falsely believe that if they remove themselves and their spren from the battlefield that Odium will have to throttle his attack on Roshar as well. They leave their blades for regular humans to use as weapons in the desolation because those shouldn't count as invested soldiers of Honor. But Odium has already splintered off a whole bunch of his investiture, so once the actual Last Desolation comes, he hits Roshar's underprepared humanity, without the heralds to guide them, with his full force.