What makes us believe that Cusicesh is actually a spren?

[digitalbusker]

Back on topic: The first paragraph in the Axies chapter that describes Cusicesh as a spren is not part of a dialogue, nor is it part of Axies' inner monologue. It was the narrator that used the spren description, so unless the narrator is unreliable, then I think that should settle it: Cusicesh is a spren.

"This character believes something that turns out not to be true" isn't exactly the same thing as an unreliable narrator. If, by "unreliable narrator" you mean "limited by the knowledge and assumptions of the current viewpoint character," then all Cosmere books have unreliable narrators.

[Elbereth]

Hmmm sound suspiciously like a Mass Hallucination Spren that has taken on a life of its own.

Narrative: Some beggar tripped out on LSD and thought he saw a large something-or-other and for some strange reason thought it would be there at the same time the next day ... and so it was. He convince a few others that it was there, and so since they expected to be able to see it, they in fact could ... and it snowballed from there. So Cusicesh exists only by feeding off of the expectations of those there, taking a little something from each and every one present to feed his own continued existence?

I'm not satisfied with such a narrative but have a suspicious feeling that there might be a great deal of truth in it. I'm just not sure where the truth ends and the admixture of error begins.

It seems right to me too. I think where you go wrong is how it got started. I think it might have been something like a knowledgeable magician/con man describing what would happen in detail, and so everyone expected it, so it happened. Edited February 28, 2014 by Limelleth

[Shardlet]

I really don't think that the whole Geranid quantum spren effect would work that way.  It is not enough to declare something or even to write it down.  It only worked with an actual measurement.

[Asha'man Logain]

True, to this point we have only seen actual measurement and writing lock a spren into it's shape. However that was merely the 2 minds of ardents, and the potentiality of writing carrying their measurments. Perhaps if enough people 'know' something about a spren for a fact, after observing it, that is enough of a cognitive lock that it works the same way as 2people observing and writing it down does.

[skaa]

"This character believes something that turns out not to be true" isn't exactly the same thing as an unreliable narrator. If, by "unreliable narrator" you mean "limited by the knowledge and assumptions of the current viewpoint character," then all Cosmere books have unreliable narrators.

Could you give one example from the Cosmere books where the narrator (not a character or an in-universe document) states something that turned out to be wrong? Note that the book's Ars Arcanum does not count since we have WoB that those are in-universe things.

Edit: Also, as I said, the narrator himself called Cusicesh a spren:

It wasn’t long. At precisely seven forty-six in the morning—the locals could use it to set their timepieces—an enormous, sea-blue spren surged from the waters of the bay.

That wasn't a statement of Axies' belief. That was just the narrator calling Cusicesh a spren. Edited March 1, 2014 by skaa

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Could you give one example from the Cosmere books where the narrator (not a character or an in-universe document) states something that turned out to be wrong? Note that the book's Ars Arcanum does not count since we have WoB that those are in-universe things.

Edit: Also, as I said, the narrator himself called Cusicesh a spren:

That wasn't a statement of Axies' belief. That was just the narrator calling Cusicesh a spren.

 

I haven't thought of any examples of an unreliable narrator in a Cosmere book. 

 

I do think though that Cusicesh is "spren", just not a spren. SO while I think the narrator is correct, it may also be misleading slightly from in-world perspective so as not to tip it's hat to any secrets that may come in the future. 

[cris34b]

The only information we have is from tWoK, where everyone who sees it calls it a Spren. 

 

I'm pretty sure that because it was a focus of the interlude, we'll see more about it in future books, but for my money, I think that Cusicesh is an amalgamation of hundreds (thousands) of previously bonded KR spren and the faces that we see are the faces of the humans to which they were bonded at the time of the Recreance. 

 

The breaking of their KR bonds drove many(most) of the bonded Spren slightly mad/mindless, like a bonded Seon during the Reod. For some reason these gathered in this place and Voltron into a giant water spren in at 7:46 every morning to look towards the Origin...

 

Maybe this is a location where an order, or more than one, broke their bonds and oaths? 

 

EDIT: @Moogle - do we have instances of Shallan/Kaladin being tired after interacting or starting the bonding process with their spren? Could be that Cusicech is trying to bond with those present? 

 

Spoilers for Words of Radiance:

When the KR split, though, their spren didn't go mad. They died and became Shardblades. 

Edited March 9, 2014 by WeiryWriter
added spoiler tags

[Nepene]

Problem is, Brandon's not afraid of giving the characters misinformation.  Generations of Allomancers thought there were only ten metals, too. I'm not willing to accept Axies' word on it with no substantiation.

 

 

Their lack of knowledge was because they didn't have contact with the other metals. What you are proposing is more like them seeing a metal and not realizing it is a metal.

[Maffu17]

Has anyone mentioned the plates built into the dock it puts its hands on.

I thought Axies was the most interesting thing about that interlude until i read this thread!

[Tempus]

The fact that it makes a cognitive splash and not a real splash should be more than enough proof it is not a physical entity.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Spoilers for Words of Radiance:

When the KR split, though, their spren didn't go mad. They died and became Shardblades. 

 

Yup, hindsight is indeed 20/20. This thread was pre-WoR release

 

Has anyone mentioned the plates built into the dock it puts its hands on.

I thought Axies was the most interesting thing about that interlude until i read this thread!

 

We have not discussed that aspect of it, but that is a good point in the larger scheme of "What is going on with Cusciech??" question. I'm going to have to re-read that chapter again now and think on the plates... Thanks!

[PrinceCatel]

I'm going to have to agree with JamHeretic on this one. While I'd like to think Axies would be able to identify spren, the fact is so little is actually KNOWN about them. Generally everything we "know" is either an assumption made by people based on their interpretation of what spren do, or else we're getting conflicting information from Syl or Pattern. It may just be me, but I'd take everything said by someone/something that can barely remember themselves with a grain of salt. 

 

Not that Cusicesh can;t be a spren, but there is just too much unknown to decide either way. Personally, I;m leaning towards it being something more substantial, otherwise why dedicate an Interlude to it?

[Shardbearer]

Edit: Also, as I said, the narrator himself called Cusicesh a spren:

That wasn't a statement of Axies' belief. That was just the narrator calling Cusicesh a spren.

 

Axies is the viewpoint character for the interlude, so he kind of is the narrator. This is called 3rd person limited, where the narrator tells you everything from the viewpoint of one character. So, if the narrator said something, it's because Axies saw it that way. The viewpoint only changes between scene/chapter breaks.

[skaa]

Axies is the viewpoint character for the interlude, so he kind of is the narrator. This is called 3rd person limited, where the narrator tells you everything from the viewpoint of one character. So, if the narrator said something, it's because Axies saw it that way. The viewpoint only changes between scene/chapter breaks.

 

You are correct. I guess I was showing my biases a bit. I feel (as a very opinionated lover of speculative fiction) that it would be an odd narrative choice to make a third person limited narrator of a fantasy story use incorrect magic terminology without any qualifier, even if the viewpoint character doesn't know the correct term. In such cases, it would be better to use uncertainty ("what appeared to be an enormous, sea-blue spren...") or hearsay ("According to the locals he interviewed..."). But of course, Brandon might not have the same opinion, though I haven't seen any proof that he's ever made a narrator use incorrect terminology in the past.

 

But anyway, I think the issue is moot because the things that make Cusicesh supposedly unique (a predictable schedule, an enormous size, and a unique appearance) can also be found in the Stormfather who we all agree (I hope) is a spren. It's all fine and dandy to theorize a totally separate, heretofore unknown category of magical being on Roshar for a creature that just so happens to be called a spren by the locals if you have reasonable cause to do so, but I think it's still safer to call Cusicesh a spren until, you know, there's actually an alternative term we can use in its stead.

Edited April 2, 2014 by skaa

[Maffu17]

After reading the interlude where the scientists measure the flamespren, the plates in the harbour kinda feels like a spren prison to me, they're forcing that poor thing to keep coming back. 

[A Joe in the Bush]

Cusicesh is obviously a Splinter of a Sliver of a Shard of Aldonasium.

 

Earlier people were saying that the Spren of the Old Knight became Shardblades, but we do know that a Significant Number of Shardblades are Missing, if this were true. I can't remember where, but Dalinar says that he could account for nearly 100 Blades, but Mathamaticians have decided there should be at least 1600. Some of the Spren might have formed Cusicesh

[Vortaan]

Is it possible that Cusicesh is another splinter of Honor? We know that the Bondsmiths only ever numbered three, and we can assume that was because they either each bonded a spren relating to one of the three Shards, or... maybe three aspects of Honor? Honor as the Stormfather, Honor as the Almighty, and Honor as the protector of mankind from the Voidbringers?

[Eejit]

"This character believes something that turns out not to be true" isn't exactly the same thing as an unreliable narrator. If, by "unreliable narrator" you mean "limited by the knowledge and assumptions of the current viewpoint character," then all Cosmere books have unreliable narrators.

 

Except possibly when we have the viewpoint of a Shard such as Harmony

[Frostlander]

Thinking about the very specific 7:46 time and the fact that there seem to be illusions/lightweaving activity associated with Cusicesh, I wondered if there was any significance between the Knights Radiant, the nature of megaspren and that number. 

 

The numbers 7, 4, 6 correspond to Battar/Elsecallers, Vedel/Edgedancers, and Shalash/Lightweavers. The illusions may suggest a connection to the Lightweavers, Cusicesh's ties to the cognitive realm a nod to the Elsecallers' proficiency there, and the faces to Edgedancers' oath to remember those who have been forgotten. 

 

It is also possible that the Heralds and/or Knights Radiant might have a large spren, given that we know Stormfather is a spren manifestation of people's belief in Honor. Not sure how all this might fit together or exactly how Cusicesh came to be fixed in the bay, but there may be something there.