Hemalurgy outside Scadrial.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

5 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Poor Ruin. Somebody goes insane and everyone starts suspecting Hemalurgy. The guy gets so much bad rep.

Yeah, Ruin gets a crem ton of downvotes from the Scadrian population...

[Podman]

On 8/3/2017 at 1:41 PM, Calderis said:

@podman36 did you mean the Dahkor monk's on Sel? That's it's own magic system. 

If you did mean Nalthis, can you clarify? 

Oh, woops. I meant Sel, but you're right.

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, podman36 said:

Oh, woops. I meant Sel, but you're right.

Okay, that's what I thought. 

Dahkor is definitely it's own system. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=618#56

Quote

JOSH

Are the Dahkor magics powered by the Dor?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

 

[cultivationspren]

I think Bluefingers is a possible candidate for someone with a Hemalurgic spike.  He seems bent towards ruining both the kingdoms of Halladren and Idris and is willing to use lifeless to do so.  But his motivation doesn't match his methods, which are extreme.

Another possibility in my mind would be someone from Sel, maybe Iadon or Dilaf.  Both of them are nuts, and again seem to propogate ruin for motives that are weak or misguided.

[Tenziden he/him]

I think a question we need to ask is, "Who even has the potential to have received a spike?" 

There are plenty of characters in the Cosmere that could be candidates for having a spike, but do we know if it's possible for all of them to have even been spiked? How could someone, say, in the distant lands of Shinovar or the island of Patji even know about spikes? 

So, did they spike themselves? Did a worldhopper or kandra from Scadrial spike them? Someone we don't know about yet? Hoid? KELSIER?! 

My phrasing is a little weird, but hopefully you can understand what I'm getting at. 

[Confused]

I think Hemalurgy appears on Roshar and is how Odium “corrupts” souls. The clearest evidence is Dalinar’s Purelake vision. The squires refer to the corrupted spren’s “escort” and try to keep it from linking with what I believe is a dead greatshell. That linkage results in the thunderclast.

In its broadest sense, I understand Hemalurgy to be the insertion of “foreign” Investiture into another’s soul. “Foreign” Investiture to me is Investiture that doesn’t normally attach to that soul and becomes attached by mechanical means. On Scadrial, Hemalurgy requires a metal spike, violence and death. That doesn’t mean Hemalurgy on other planets works the same way.

I believe stormspren are Hemalurgized windspren. I think Odium inserts his Investiture into the windspren to change them. Brandon says souls “carry” Odium’s Investiture. Odium’s Investiture doesn’t bond, it “unmakes.” IMO, because of this, Odium must somehow slip his Investiture into the windspren, changing them, and the windspren/stormspren themselves bond with listeners. It’s a different mechanical means of “spiking,” but it has the same result as Scadrian Hemalurgy.

[Calderis he/him]

@Confused I've seen this line of reasoning before. I could be completely wrong, but until we see it in book I'm not going to be able to accept that hemalurgy is possible without spikes. My main thought concerning that stems from this WoB. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=977#120

Quote

ODIUM'S_SHARD

Lastly, less pressingly, do Spirit Points (hemalurgic spots) apply to ever magic system, and through the Cosmere at large? Ie. could Hemalurgy be used to take any other magic systems aspects, and do other magic systems also have these 'Points', such as Body Focuses, that work in similar ways?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hemalurgy crosses magic systems. You could steal things from people on other worlds, if you knew the right places for the spikes.

It specifically talks of spikes and bind points for non-scadrian traits. 

[Confused]

You've probably seen "this line of reasoning before" from me. I've been pushing it for at least two years. And I too could be completely wrong...

I'm unperturbed by the WoB, though. I think every form of Hemalurgy would use the same "bind points," since they’re common to every soul. Otherwise, the Hemalurgized soul couldn't perform magic. 

I believe Scadrial uses metal spikes because metals are Scadrial’s Focus. I believe Roshar’s Focus are its spren. It makes sense to me that the Rosharan “spike” would be an Odiumspren that takes over its host.

 

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

You've probably seen "this line of reasoning before" from me. I've been pushing it for at least two years. And I too could be completely wrong...

I wasn't thinking of you specifically, although I'm sure I've seen some of those discussions. 

1 hour ago, Confused said:

I believe Scadrial uses metal spikes because metals are Scadrial’s Focus. I believe Roshar’s Focus are its spren. It makes sense to me that the Rosharan “spike” would be an Odiumspren that takes over its host.

I think I'm in the minority as a "bonds" proponent for Roshar. 

The main reason I disagree with the change has less to do with other magics focus than it does with hemalurgy having developed on Scadrial. It's already an outlier in that it doesn't truly provide any effects of its own. I think it would be exceptionally strange for it to be the only magic that changes based on where and how it's used. 

There may be ways to jack it to use other things, but hemalurgy developed on Scadrial, so it's particular focus should remain metal. Allomancy uses metal Cosmere wide. Surgebinding should require a Nahel bond Cosmere wide. Awakening requires the intent of the command. 

The focus of the magic should not change based on location. The focus for Nalthis is commands. The focus for Sel is Forms.

If one magic system changes based on the location of its use, they all should. 

[Confused]

I agree that the Metallic Arts can be used anywhere. I think Preservation planned for Allomancers and Feruchemists to use metal anywhere. Planned or not, that means the Scadrian form of Hemalurgy can also be used anywhere. But that doesn’t mean the Scadrian form is the only form of Hemalurgy or that such other forms don’t use local Investiture and Focuses to create their “spikes.” (We know Lightweaving and Regrowth, for example, have more than one planetary form.)

In fact, I don’t think Hemalurgy (admittedly a “Metallic Art”) is an actual “magic system.” IMO, it’s a wholly mechanical means of transferring magical attributes from one soul to another. Hemalurgy requires magical knowledge regarding spike placement, but only the victim (until spiked) and the transferee are magic users. The spiker isn’t.

Roshar’s Focus is a question I’ve mostly avoided. I agree with those who think it doesn’t matter much whether the Focus is the spren or the bond. In this case, though, maybe it does matter. I side with the spren advocates because Roshar’s pre-Shattering “natural” spren also seem to Focus Shard powers like gravity, fire, and life. I think that’s the basis for fabrials, which don’t rely on the Nahel bond. I also think Odium’s Investiture doesn’t bond at all because Odium’s “hate” mandate divides and corrodes. IOW, Odium – Hate – severs connections but doesn’t form them.

I’m tapped out on my public comments on this subject. If you’d like to kick this around some more, we can have a private conversation. Or better still, if you’d like to look at a mostly finished draft post on magic system components, contact me. (The post contains a limerick!) I prefer to unearth problems in advance of publication rather than afterwards…Thanks, Calderis!

[Calderis he/him]

6 minutes ago, Confused said:

(We know Lightweaving and Regrowth, for example, have more than one planetary form.)

This conflating two different things. 

The multiple types of Lightweaving we've seen are from separate magic systems and would therefore have a separate focus. The similarities in the name most likely comes from people who survived to see the similar uses. 

8 minutes ago, Confused said:

In fact, I don’t think Hemalurgy (admittedly a “Metallic Art”) is an actual “magic system.”

According to the Mistborn annotations it is. Ruin's Intent is why this is usable by anyone. To maximize potential entropy from the magic system that grew out of the Shard. 

11 minutes ago, Confused said:

I also think Odium’s Investiture doesn’t bond at all because Odium’s “hate” mandate divides and corrodes. IOW, Odium – Hate – severs connections but doesn’t form them.

Bondage is another form of bond, and I believe that's the use of the focus that both Odium and fabrials, via captivity, use.

I don't use PMs intentionally so I'll let this drop for now. I'm much more interested in maximizing discourse than in the minutiae of theory craft.

Enjoy your day, and thanks for the input.  

[Oversleep]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

According to the Mistborn annotations it is. Ruin's Intent is why this is usable by anyone. To maximize potential entropy from the magic system that grew out of the Shard. 

And, like Calderis said, Mistborn annotations speak of Hemalurgy being of Ruin.

[shadowwisp]

Why are we looking for erratic or insane individuals? From my understanding hemalurgy doesn't cause you to become crazy. But Ruin can influence mentally unstable people to spike themselves like Gemmel or Zane but that is a pre-existing condition. Or if you are sane and get spiked, then Ruin can make you hear and see things making you think that you are crazy when you are not. 

Without Ruin, the number of erratic individuals who are spiked should drop significantly. Can every Shard even influence spiked individuals? Preservation didn't seem able to. (Edit: post below shows that Preservation can) And with the Shards that do have that ability, I doubt that they are as proficient as Ruin/Harmony.  

With no primary Shard on Sel, you don't even have to worry about outside influence. As for Nalthis, why would Endowment be trying to influence Tonk Fah when it seems that she was actively working against his and Denath's plans (by returning Lightsong and Blushweaver). 

On Roshar, Odium would be a good possibility for influencing spiked individuals but then wouldn't Cultivation be able to counter it?  

 

Edit: Actually just ignore this post. I completely forgot about Paalm.......

Edited August 11, 2017 by shadowwisp

[+Extesian he/him]

I'll throw this WoB in here. It's only tangentially relevant to the immediate discussion but it always fascinated me. 

Quote

CZANOS (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (Minus Atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or Atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts?

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

Source

 

[Oversleep]

7 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I'll throw this WoB in here. It's only tangentially relevant to the immediate discussion but it always fascinated me. 

 

Does it mean Ruin could fuel some non-Scadrian magic if it was stolen Hemalurgically...?

[Calderis he/him]

23 minutes ago, shadowwisp said:

Why are we looking for erratic or insane individuals? From my understanding hemalurgy doesn't cause you to become crazy

I'm trying to find the WoB and having trouble, because I can't remember the wording, but there's one that says spiking, especially when you have multiple, tends to cause mental instability even without Ruin's influence. 

It's due to the damage to the spirit web. 

[Oversleep]

Just now, Calderis said:

I'm trying to find the WoB and having trouble, because I can't remember the wording, but there's one that says spiking, especially when you have multiple, tends to cause mental instability even without Ruin's influence. 

It's due to the damage to the spirit web. 

It's about Inquisitors IIRC.

Anyway, I do remember such WoB but it was about spiritweb damage, not necessarily mental instability. Ping me when you find it

[cometaryorbit]

On 8/10/2017 at 10:01 PM, Oversleep said:

Does it mean Ruin could fuel some non-Scadrian magic if it was stolen Hemalurgically...?

I would think he could.

When Shard power is  being accessed "directly" rather than through the normal magic systems, it can do a lot of crazy things outside the normal rules, even if a non-Shard is the one actually manipulating the power: Rashek with the Well did a bunch of things outside the normal Metallic Arts power-sets, like moving the planet and re-engineering the genetics/metabolism of bacteria, plants, and people, and Leras still held Preservation at the time (though mentally diminished).

But the expense of power might be even greater than usual, so whether Ruin would be willing to do it is another question.

[Oversleep]

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

When Shard power is  being accessed "directly" rather than through the normal magic systems, it can do a lot of crazy things outside the normal rules, even if a non-Shard is the one actually manipulating the power: Rashek with the Well did a bunch of things outside the normal Metallic Arts power-sets, like moving the planet and re-engineering the genetics/metabolism of bacteria, plants, and people, and Leras still held Preservation at the time (though mentally diminished).

That's holding a fraction of Shard. That's not what I meant.

Directly fueling magic is like Vin burning mists or Vin fueling Elend's Allomancy even when he run out of metals.

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

But the expense of power might be even greater than usual, so whether Ruin would be willing to do it is another question.

We know it's something Shards are hesitant to do.

[cometaryorbit]

45 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

That's holding a fraction of Shard. That's not what I meant.

Directly fueling magic is like Vin burning mists or Vin fueling Elend's Allomancy even when he run out of metals.

Is it actually a different mechanism though?

The amount of power in the Well is much larger than Vin pulling out TLR's bracers or Elend using Allomancy without metals, but in both cases, the person is using 'raw' Investiture outside the constraints of the normal magic system.

And when Vin draws in all the mists in the process of Ascension, she's still using it 'like' the normal metals rather than doing arbitrary reality-rewriting, but her supercharged pewter lets her ignore broken bones. That's not really a logical result of super-powering the normal use of Allomantic pewter, as a duralumin flare would; the physical structure would still have to be there and functioning.

The liquid in the Well is basically the same thing as the mists, in a different phase. I think there's less to the distinction than it seems.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

I wonder if stealing Selish abilities through Hemalurgy would be one solution to the location dependency. Maybe with Hemalurgy in the mix, using different investitures would become easier?

[Thanatos]

This is what you can do with just the power of the well.

'

While Rashek held the power of the Well, he moved the planet closer to its star in an attempt to defeat the Deepness. However, this made the planet too hot for the inhabitants of Scadrial to survive, so he created the Ashmounts to shoot ash and smoke into the atmosphere to make it thicker.

As a result, he then also had to change the plant life to be able to survive on less sunlight, and in turn had to alter the people to be able to survive on the less nutritious plants.

He moved the Well of Ascension by flattening the Terris of his day. He also created mountains in the area that would become the north, the Terris of the Final Empire. He knew the Well would fill up again and wanted to be prepared to once again take up the power held there, as well as prevent any who would seek the Well from finding it.'

...

The mists alone Vin took on a murder of inquisitors easily. Then Kaladin gave her Preservation and she ascended straight away. The mists is like a duraluminum boost to all allomantic powers.

Nothing compared to the wells power

[Agent34]

I think you mean Kelsier.

[cometaryorbit]

On 8/15/2017 at 0:06 AM, Thanatos said:

The mists is like a duraluminum boost to all allomantic powers.

Nothing compared to the wells power

The Well is far more powerful than Vin's pre-Ascension Mist-burning, yes (though by absorbing all the mists, Vin Ascended to hold the entire Shard, which is even more powerful than the Well). However, the mists and the Well are still two forms of the same thing - Preservation's Investiture expressed in physical form, in gaseous and liquid states respectively. The Well is more concentrated. (Lerasium is the third, solid state - while it has a specific Allomantic effect, it's still fundamentally the same thing

 

And I'm not convinced the pre-full-Ascension mist burning is the same kind of boost as duralumin. Even beyond the issue of power (Vin exploded Kredik Shaw, which is well beyond what we see her do with duralumin Steelpushes, impressive as they are), there may be a qualitative difference too. Once she starts mist-burning, her broken bones seem to become irrelevant; I'm not convinced just super-charging the effect of Allomantic pewter would do that. It makes the bones and muscles and so on stronger (and also increases dexterity/balance etc.) but I'm not sure increased strength would logically le you  work around actually broken structural elements.

[cometaryorbit]

On 8/14/2017 at 10:21 AM, Lord Maelstrom said:

I wonder if stealing Selish abilities through Hemalurgy would be one solution to the location dependency. Maybe with Hemalurgy in the mix, using different investitures would become easier?

I kind of doubt it, because when you steal Allomancy with Hemalurgy, you still need to burn the right metal to use the power.

There may very well be a Hemalurgy-based way to make Selish magic work off-world, but I don't think it would be as simple as "all stolen Selish magic is automatically location-independent". You'd probably also have to steal the victim/donor's Connection to their birthplace - Connection appears to be a spiritweb thing, so it should be Hemalurgically stealable, if you knew how.

You might end up needing 2 atium spikes per Selish power though (one for the actual magic and one for the Connection), which could get expensive (though maybe one of the unknown spikes out of the sixteen normal metals steals connection as a human attribute, who knows...) It'd also make you easier to control (since you have twice the spikes-per-power of someone using Hemalurgically-stolen Scadrian magic).