A new vessel for Ambition

[AeonaRin]

Oh gawd. Hawkido. I'm not saying you didn't put a lot of effort in your research. I am saying that because of your methods, your conclusion is unlikely. From statistic point of view. And you're taking it as an axiom, even though there's plenty contradictory arguments presented by others. 

Pointing logical errors is not rude, I'm not attacking YOU. Pointing errors is a part of discussion. The proper way to react to that would be to try to avoid them in the future. 

That being said, I will no longer replay to this thread, I got too tired with it.

 

Good luck. 

[Hawkido]

@The One Who Connects it was on Nov 29th, 2014.  I do realize that Odium has killed another shard, there are quite a few un accounted for shards out there.

Quote

Those known by intent are Ambition, Autonomy, Cultivation, Devotion, Dominion, Endowment, Honor, Odium, Preservation, and Ruin. An eleventh Shard which has been partially revealed just "wants to survive." It is unclear what the intent of this Shard is, as it could be Survival but also could be many other things. Trell may be one of the unknown shards, as it is an unknown being of great power worshiped by Miles Hundredlives, and served by the Set. Ruin and Preservation have been combined to form the new shard of 'Harmony', as such Ruin and Preservation no longer exist as separate entities.

--From the coppermind

 I noticed that they do not have "Fortune" on their list as that shard was mentioned in the Secret Histories by the Ire.  Fortune, doesn't sound like Trell. and either Fortune is splintered and contained, or there are some very special rules about who can draw upon his powers (like a genie's lamp, 3 wishes, then poof) and the Ire comment:

Quote

“You always jump at stories, Alonoe. Not every coincidence is a sign of someone drawing upon Fortune.”

also in re-reading Secret Histories I believe I have figured out what Nahz's knife does.  It Grants connection, although this power seems to originate from a different shard (as the blade does not glow even though it appears to be metal).  I don't know if anyone else has a good theory as to how Kel learns new languages in seconds  Or learns to read Aons in just a few page flips when it take Natives of Sel years of practice.  Everything I have seen has been RAFOd, and the knife is confirmed "special" by a booksigning WoB.

However, I am game to your plan... do you have any particular place you wish to look?  I would suggest first developing a list and only place firm fact in it... like Ambition has been splintered, but the circumstances are unknown at this time, but Ambition was mortally wounded in an interplanetary battle in Threnody with Odium. in which Ambition managed to flee, but chunks of Ambition were ripped out in the Threnody system.  Odium had Ambition as Number 1 on his hit list, but Dominion and Domination were actually splintered by Odium first.  We are not sure if Odium and Ambition battled before D&D were splintered, as the battle between Odium and Ambition was listed to be "very soon" after Adonalsium was shattered.  Do you see any corrections or additions to this list?

Similar information should also be collected into this list.  And I am not familiar with adding content to the Coppermind but you might be... how would we go about adding "Fortune" to their list.

19 hours ago, strumienpola said:

Oh gawd. Hawkido. I'm not saying you didn't put a lot of effort in your research. I am saying that because of your methods, your conclusion is unlikely. From statistic point of view. And you're taking it as an axiom, even though there's plenty contradictory arguments presented by others.

Here is your statement, I shall bold a few of your words. and now I shall quote Words of Radiance dealing with statistical likelihood and rate of occurrence.  I will tag @Yata as well as he also seems to equate unlikly as impossible.

Quote

“Almighty above . . .” he whispered. Thousands of days. Thousands upon thousands. “It should never have happened.”

“Of course it should have,” she said.

“But it’s so unlikely as to be impossible!”

“It’s perfectly possible,” she said. “The likelihood of it having happened is one, as it already occurred."

Never assume that what is unlikely to happen, never will happen.  you will live many thousands of days.  The likelihood of you dying on one of them is a very low percentage.   The likelihood of you living forever is zero however.  This is where simple views of statistics starts to break down.  I am making a prediction about a subject that we have little information about.  It is likely that I will be wrong on some of my assumptions.  But it is certain that I will be wrong on all of them if I do not even try to figure it out.  I'll take my chances.  Best of luck to you, I hope you find happiness where ever you post! 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Hawkido

[Yata]

@Hawkido Fortune isn't a Shard is a Cosmere's mechanic like Identity or Connection.

This is the reason It's not accounted in the Shards list.

Returning to your point I think the word searching isn't really meaningful. Some words are common than others...You can't honestly extrapolate too much from It. For example Preservation as Word is never mentioned into The Final Empire.

I find also funny how you could ignore some solid informations to simply use the Words count as prove.

I noticed you took the others posts and ignore the solid parts to Attack the weaker....But this don't remove the other solid part behind.

You also ignore explicit WoB about how the Fjorder is influenced by Dominion.

So honestly what do you want as counterproof?

With your Logic I could probably take as proof every random fact for a theory.

PS: Elantris was written more than 10 years ago. He could not even decided Ambition's name there...Or Dominion too.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Yata

[Calderis]

@Hawkido I pretty much exist on mobile, so forgive me for not being able to find and quote WoBs like everyone else, but when it was shown that Odium hit D&D first, the reasoning was that he wasn't able to find Ambition, so I find it unlikely, but not impossible that they fought prior to the splinterings on Sel. 

And as for the issue of "Fortune" I took that more as an attribute than a Shard. Partly because we know that it is a Feruchemical attribute. The spiritual quadrant of Feruchemical Metals is Connection, Identity, Investiture, and Fortune. While it's possible there's a Shard named Fortune, I find it unlikely Brandon would make a Shard that shares a name with one of his Realmatic functions.

Edit: and ninja'd on fortune be @Yata

Edited April 3, 2017 by Calderis

[Aaronator17]

2 hours ago, Hawkido said:

I noticed that they do not have "Fortune" on their list as that shard was mentioned in the Secret Histories by the Ire.

Please be careful with how you say things in future @Hawkido, because the above reads like it is confirmed that Fortune is a shard, when it is in realty just a theory. Admittedly it is a very popular theory, and there is surely nothing to say that there couldn't be a Shard with the Intent Fortune, but you need to qualify your statements more; clearly indicating when they are based on confirmed facts, other theories, or your own speculation.

Also, I feel like at this point the discussion has evolved beyond the original topic which was basically "could Kelsier find and claim the shattered shard of Ambition", so thanks everyone who got involved for your input. This was my first official theory post here on the 17th Shard, and I'm really happy that so many people got involved. Despite some controversy in this thread I will continue to come up with crazy random theories, and hopefully I'll be spiritedly debating with you all again soon. If you @Hawkido or @Yata want to continue the current discussion feel free to start another thread; might I recommend "Ambition is on Sel, associated with Devotion, and trapped as Jaddeth?!" or something as descriptive

[Calderis]

12 minutes ago, Aaronator17 said:

Please be careful with how you say things in future @Hawkido, because the above reads like it is confirmed that Fortune is a shard, when it is in realty just a theory. Admittedly it is a very popular theory, and there is surely nothing to say that there couldn't be a Shard with the Intent Fortune, but you need to qualify your statements more; clearly indicating when they are based on confirmed facts, other theories, or your own speculation.

Also, I feel like at this point the discussion has evolved beyond the original topic which was basically "could Kelsier find and claim the shattered shard of Ambition", so thanks everyone who got involved for your input. This was my first official theory post here on the 17th Shard, and I'm really happy that so many people got involved. Despite some controversy in this thread I will continue to come up with crazy random theories, and hopefully I'll be spiritedly debating with you all again soon. If you @Hawkido or @Yata want to continue the current discussion feel free to start another thread; might I recommend "Ambition is on Sel, associated with Devotion, and trapped as Jaddeth?!" or something as descriptive

The topic has definitely deviated from where you started it. I love your idea, as I've stated earlier in this thread. Sorry it's gone so far afield. Keep it up. I'll be happy to speak up in support or dissent. Your well spoken, civil, and put forward an original idea that I would love to see it happen. 

[Yata]

@Aaronator17 yeah sorry, It's was my fault too

[Aaronator17]

13 minutes ago, Yata said:

yeah sorry, It's was my fault too

Absolutely no apologies necessary

[Hawkido]

@Aaronator17 Yeah @The One Who Connects I believe is trying to get a different discussion started on a new thread, where the solid facts about shards are collected, then we can post opinions, wild speculation, and theories, and viewpoints on it.  Thread hijackery wasn't my intent But the subject was Kel acquiring Ambition, and I had a theory (however thin and possibly ill conceived) as to where Ambition is, and it is the only theory other than Ambition is in space/star so fugeddaboudit.  Sorry that the debate about my theory got everywhere.

So, to get back on track, I do support the idea that Kel will acquire Ambition, where ever it might be.  He read the Ire book about the Adonalsium, the shards, and the cosmere and learned how the attunement device worked, even though he said he didn't understand most of it.  But he has had a great deal of time to study and learn, and he has met and interacted with two "rival" (I air quoted that as the true nature of their relationship is unknown, but definately "not cooperative") Scholarly Organizations that are interplanetary (if not in makeup, then in scope) I don't know how much, if any, Harmony has helped/would help Kel.  But he has enough resources available to him to finish the job.

 

*edit* in the future I will try to deflect off-topic debate unrelated to the thread to another thread or to another medium as many people don't enjoy the clashing of minds.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Hawkido

[The One Who Connects]

@Hawkido not exactly my intent, but good enough

[Calderis]

Finally found the WoB I was thinking about that made me think leaving a planet would be fixed with a body. I don't know how to link WoBs properly, so it's a copy paste. 

INTERVIEW: Feb 17th, 2016

Calamity-Seattle

QUESTION

Okay, so when Kelsier is in the-- Which Realm is he in?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He’s in the Cognitive Realm.

QUESTION

Is he seeing people from other worlds or is he--

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, he meets some people who are traveling but Cognitive Realm is location dependent. He is on the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and the people he runs into there-- until he kind of travels off into space, which is where he finds the fortress.

QUESTION

So even though he’s tied to Scadrial could he go to the Cognitive Realm of other worlds?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He would have trouble getting to another planet, being a Cognitive shadow like he was.

QUESTION

So is there some particular thing that somebody would need to have to be able to move between the realms?

BRANDON SANDERSON

A body is helpful.

QUESTION

That does make sense.

        Now reading it again I think the person was trying to ask the question I thought this WoB was addressing. That last question says "move between the realms" though. So while I still think it is likely a body would fix the problem, the confirmation I thought existed does not. 

Oh well. Looks like I get to keep waiting to see if I'm right or not. 

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

 

@Aaronator17(i am unable to remove this mention from mobile...But It has no meaning here).

Calderis the body helps but didn't fix the problem, you could probably find a WoB on Returneds Who have still problem to worldhop (and they have a body). A cognitive Shadow could worldhop but It's still difficoult.

About the Vesselhood remember that a Cognitive Shadow is a poor Vessel. Kelsier also with all' the Connection provided by Ire's orb. Have problem to claim the Shard...The Shard find him a poor Vessel and try to find a Better Vessel, a great amount of Preservation's Power was also out of his Control.

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Yata

[Calderis]

@Yata yes. Without the inate tie to the physical realm built into the body much of the power of the Shards was out of Kel's reach. After gaining a body, he would again have a tie to the physical realm and this problem would be fixed.

Unless we see a Cognitive Shadow with a body take up a Shard and have the same issue, or a WoB stating such, I think the issue was lack of ability to interact with the physical realm, and not the state of having been a Cognitive Shadow. 

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@Yata yes. Without the inate tie to the physical realm built into the body much of the power of the Shards was out of Kel's reach. After gaining a body, he would again have a tie to the physical realm and this problem would be fixed.

Unless we see a Cognitive Shadow with a body take up a Shard and have the same issue, or a WoB stating such, I think the issue was lack of ability to interact with the physical realm, and not the state of having been a Cognitive Shadow. 

Your is a fair point, but to be honest I am really doubtful about.

A Shard also with a 10% of his Power could do Almost everything. If your point was true, every Vessel Will be able to fix his string to the Physical (if he misses One of It). So Kelsier as Preservation would be able (probably the Power itself would do It for him) to re-connect himself with the physical.

Nothing a mortal magic could do is beyond Shard's possibilities

Ruin didn't seems worried about Kelsier, He left him to ho around...If Kelsier would be able to power-up his Control on the Shard. I feel Ruin would crash him at Soon as Kel ascended

But It's only a speculation of mine

Edited April 4, 2017 by Yata

[Calderis]

I view it this way. A person exists in the three realms, and a shards power transcends all of them. When a mortal ascends, the power of the Shard suffuses them on all three realms and expands what they are. 

The issue in a situation like Kelsier's is that he lacked a physical aspect and so there was nothing there for the Shard to expand. If he had access to the physical, he could have created himself a new body and everything would have been all well and good. Without that physical aspect though, he had no access to the parts of the power that effected the physical realm. Ruin being whole would have known this inherently and knew that Kelsier was no threat and he could essentially ignore him.

Once the physical realm is restored to Kelsier, ascending would give him the full power of the Shards he holds. Without it... He's missing a major portion of what he can do. 

[Yata]

Possible Indeed, It didn't work very well with other Cosmere events but Indeed It's possible

[Djarskublar]

I have to say I'm with @Calderis on this one. I took it as given that if he got a body he could worldhop without any problem. I didn't realize it was up for debate.

That said, i think the difficulty in worldhopping for shadows is that they don't have a Connection to the PR, so they can't cross the boundary between subastrals that represents a massive shift in physical space, they are too Connected to their subastral. If they have a body, though, they can do it, but they have difficulty traveling around the CR then.

[+Extesian]

14 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

I have to say I'm with @Calderis on this one. I took it as given that if he got a body he could worldhop without any problem. I didn't realize it was up for debate.

That said, i think the difficulty in worldhopping for shadows is that they don't have a Connection to the PR, so they can't cross the boundary between subastrals that represents a massive shift in physical space, they are too Connected to their subastral. If they have a body, though, they can do it, but they have difficulty traveling around the CR then.

I must admit I'm the other way. The fact that a body "helps" may just be the language he used but I figure there is more to it. This WoB makes it sound like it:

Quote

QUESTION

Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave. It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. ‘Cognitive Shadow’ is a very ambiguous term in the Cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but you are usually Invested with something, that’s tied, and you’re basically like pure Investiture then. You’re tied to the thing you’re Connected to. Most of the things that you’re gonna see like that, traveling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it. You have seen people do it.

QUESTION

Who?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Vasher.

QUESTION

Sure, sure.

BRANDON SANDERSON

You have seen people do it

Knowing how to do it could just be getting yourself a body. But it sounds like more. And Returned always have bodies yet it sounds like the Scholars had to learn to.

[Aaronator17]

51 minutes ago, Extesian said:

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave. It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not.

Keep in mind though that the Heralds are still bound by the Oathpact, whether they think so or not. So i think for them it's atually a little different. A Returned would be the closest thing we have to what Kelsier is and we know that they have worldhopped before. So unless there's something specific about Cognitive Shadows and their ties to physical bodies through Sdcadrian magic, Kelsier should be similar, he would just need to figure out how.

[Djarskublar]

I think the Heralds are more of an edge case. The Oathpact is still a thing, even if they don't follow it properly any more. I also think their nature reduces their autonomy somewhat. Brandon says they can't leave, that most shadows would find it very difficult, and that we've seen people do it.

As for the Returned, of course the Scholars had to learn to, everyone does. I don't think it would be as easy for them, but I don't think it would be particularly difficult either.

For a counter example to needing a body: shades. The Ire were concerned about shades wandering over to where they were. This wasn't a 'oh, that looked like there was maybe a shade there, that is strange,' they had active defenses and warning systems in place to deal with them. Shades don't exactly strike me as the most clever of beasties, so I doubt many, if any at all, would travel if there was some trick to it. They just wander around.

Aaaaand ninja'd by @Aaronator17 about the Heralds.

[Spoolofwhool]

14 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

For a counter example to needing a body: shades. The Ire were concerned about shades wandering over to where they were. This wasn't a 'oh, that looked like there was maybe a shade there, that is strange,' they had active defenses and warning systems in place to deal with them. Shades don't exactly strike me as the most clever of beasties, so I doubt many, if any at all, would travel if there was some trick to it. They just wander around.

Do you have some source for them being worried about shades? Sounded more like they were worried non-shade Threnodite worldhoppers interfering.

[Calderis]

OK, so I know that I posted this WoB already but bear with me

INTERVIEW: Feb 17th, 2016

Calamity-Seattle

QUESTION

Okay, so when Kelsier is in the-- Which Realm is he in?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He’s in the Cognitive Realm.

QUESTION

Is he seeing people from other worlds or is he--

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, he meets some people who are traveling but Cognitive Realm is location dependent. He is on the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and the people he runs into there-- until he kind of travels off into space, which is where he finds the fortress.

QUESTION

So even though he’s tied to Scadrial could he go to the Cognitive Realm of other worlds?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He would have trouble getting to another planet, being a Cognitive shadow like he was.

QUESTION

So is there some particular thing that somebody would need to have to be able to move between the realms?

BRANDON SANDERSON

A body is helpful.

QUESTION

That does make sense.

That final question seems switches to the word realms but I wish we could get some clarification on how Brandon took the question. Because in his previous answer he specifically mentions moving to other planets and that's why I was stuck on my thinking for so long. 

I really want to know if he answered the question as asked, or if his brain made the same logical step I did based off his previous statement and he's saying a body would fix that problem. 

I'm probably overthinking things at this point and making myself crazy, but gah...  This bothers me. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Calderis

[Kingsdaughter613]

@Yata Part of the issue with Kell and Preservation (the bigger issue actually) was that they were a HORRIBLE match. The power was fighting him constantly. He couldn't do anything because Preservation itself wouldn't let him. On the other hand, he could have easily picked up Ruin and considered it. (He chose not to, which is actually the best argument against him taking up another Shard.)

Of the Shards we know, Kell could probably take up: Ruin (noted above), Ambition, Autonomy, Odium, and Cultivation. Of those, I think Kell as Cultivation would be the most interesting. He cultivates people and he's very good at it. But this will probably never happen.

But yes, he could probably take up Ambition if it was available.

[Yata]

14 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

@Yata

That was a problem, not the only one.

Kelsier was a poor Vessel for Preservation both for a mundane reason (the one you actually provided) and for a magical reason (his status as Cognitive Shadow).

Bè attached to a body didn't make himself whole. He has just probably a artificial string to link It to the physical (like the Returned and probably the Herald).

This could help him to worldhop (help not avoid the whole problem, because the problem is mainly in his replaced soul) but I don't think this would provide an help to Vesselhood.

He seems uncapable of solving his issue with a Shard's power. I really doubt a Little magic trick could stata in Place when he Will become a mainly spiritual being (Shard).

Lastly, I agree Kelsier would probably fit well with Ambition (see below)....Simply I this his situation make him impossible to actually Ascend to It.

PS: Kel is a Cognitive Shadow from dome centuries. The Investiture change you over the time. Kel is now quite an Humanspren made of Preservation's Investiture. I hardly could believe, he is the same of Mistborn's books

[Kingsdaughter613]

He might not be able to take them up fully, but we don't know how much he could do with a Shard that worked with him. 2/3 of awesome power is still pretty powerful. The problem he had was that Preservation  would not let him do anything for the most part. He probably could have done things with it, had they been more compatible. (He clearly had power he could control that he wasn't consciously using; that's straight out in the novella.) I also don't trust Ruin; he had too many good reasons for having Kell think he could not use the power.

But, as noted, I don't think Kelsier will Ascend again. Or even attempt to.

The only reason I see Kell taking up Ambition is to prove that he can put a splintered Shard back together. Then promptly hand it to someone else (someone he trusts) because the point wasn't to hold the Shard; it was the challenge.