A new vessel for Ambition

[Hawkido]

 

On 3/31/2017 at 8:57 PM, strumienpola said:

I would not call that evidence, but a guess. 

Can you link me to that WoB?

Now these are just even wilder guesses. Especially with Devotion. And I certainly hope you're wrong because I'd personally hate Kel to be op. 

#1: Please do the word search, if you can.  The use of the word Ambition as a noun does not occur very often in this series, I believe there are only three times. it happens outside Elantris, both are in Words of Radiance and both are pointed at Scholar form  Once in the Song of listing at a chapter start and once when Eshonai tells Venli, who was wearing Scholar Form, "I Love you, but your Ambition Frightens me".  The Last time was by the Ghost Bloods (or the Cognative Shadow/Hemalurgy worldhopper faction as I like to call them, which only plays into my theory) says Shallan has Ambition.  That might be tenius evidence, but as there is zero contradictory evidence, then it is the "Best evidence" we have.  My words were chosen carefully.

#2: It's on Coppermind, was reported by DawnSard on this form.

#3: Your use of the word "guess" as a derogatory on the theory board puzzles me, A guess based on evidence in an inference.  I agree that the evidence is tenuous.  But it is the only evidence we have.  If you have other contradictory evidence please present it.  I come here to read other peoples' crack brained theories as much as post my own.  Many times I learn something and if someone actually gives a reference I will go check it out.  Yata and I don't agree on much but I go check out every reference he gives because he sees the Cosmere much more differently than I do.  I don't think he is wrong, I just don't see the same things he does, and our theories differ wildly for reasons of perspective. 

And as to your later post, I am sorry you felt you had to become hateful because someone else spoke their thoughts.  I hope you recover your good graces and social etiquette and use your next post to actually contribute.  This forum is supposed to be for open discussion, I hope it remains so.  

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Hawkido one point to dispute on your Dahkor is of Ambition idea. You talk about the Secret Dahkor practices as though they emerged at the same time as the chasm broke the Aons. Hrathen went to the Dahkor monastery long before the Chasm, and they were already doing their thing then. He remembers himself as a frightened young man in the monastery of demons. The length of his career, and his status as Gyorn make it completely implausible to me that Dahkor, secret as it is, is a recent development.

 

Odium has been on Roshar for tens of thousands of years.  however long it took Ambition to die/bleed out (the phrasing seems vague as to whether Ambition died as a direct result of the wounding by Odium, or left Ambition in such a weak state another Shard or Organization managed to finish him off),  I don't think it is a recent event, if I am even correct as to Ambition's resting place.  Also, as I said above (buried in my walls of text):

 

21 hours ago, Hawkido said:

unless the quake that broke the Dor was also what released Jaddeth to this extent, or vice versa.

Jaddeth is freeing himself from a stoney prison, as he seems to describe it.  And only recently has he been making outward gains, the most recent was the Quake,either caused by him making gains or was the result of him making gains.  Just as in Elantris they didn't realize until 10 years later that the quake caused the Dor to malfunction.  Perhaps when Jaddeth widened the crack (ala the WoT's Dark One) he then has more control, or the quake widened the crack (ala the WoT's drilling of the Bore into the Dark One's prison).  This is just a fun Gedaneken Experiment.  Play along if you want, I don't want anyone getting Gluteous Contusions over anything I say, but as this is a theory board, why not post an actual theory, instead of just slinging WoBs at each other.

 

20 hours ago, Yata said:

I already explained before but just to clarify. Bonds are probably realeased into the physical death not the higher one. Nale itself mentions how Szeth's mind was still in the timeframe of recover (He cites the "brain was still working" or something like that). Nale has no reason (or maybe pratical knowledge) to explain the whole death process to Szeth.

Bonds are only released on the death of the blade holder, (obviously their body's death, but does not mean their Cognitive Self, nor their Soul).  Brandon said he had originally thought about knocking the gem off as being a way to release the bond, but he changed it as the other way just didn't feel right. 

Szeth kept his oaths till he died, that is why Nin came to him, I believe his words were "That is why I was drawn to you".  One of those oaths was to not relinquish the blade.  The Stone shamans will retrieve it once he is dead.

Can you be dead and your heart still ne alive?  That is how we donate organs.  The Brain is just an organ, It might be essential for life but life can end without the brain being dead.  People that are in permanent comas for years before they die and have no brain activity other than autonomous functions and even some of them don't have any brain activity but they don't live that long as they are deemed DEAD, and they stop the respirators and dialysis and intravenous feeding, but the brain is not dead, just not responding, else it would begin decaying after about 3 days.  The saying "The Lights are on but nobody's home." comes to mind.  Wax had a similar experience,  He was a Cognative Shadow, talking with Sazed.  Sazed said he was dead as well, and actually explained the process, It becomes final when they move to the beyond as a CS.  As Harmony said he doesn't have the power to pull someone back once they move on (I.E. Vin and Elend declined and moved on). And when asked, Brandon has been vague about whether a shard CAN pull someone back.

 

Another Thought:  Ambition is the Desire for More.  Dominion is the Desire for Control.  The Derethi hierarchy used devotion as a means of control, but recently post Quake and Reod, They are seeking to Control more and they accept Ambition as readily as they do Devotion.  Could it just be that the Elantrians aren't in power any more? Sure.  But then there is the Careful use of the word Ambition.  And if I am wrong about Ambition then we still don't know where Ambition is and have no other leads until more material comes out.  That is why I am following the only path available.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Hawkido

[Calderis he/him]

@Hawkido OK, please don't take offense to this because I don't mean any insult. Speculation is all well and good. I do it all the time. Your posting on a forum with a pretty storming fanatical fan base for an author that is willing to give out a lot of info. People aren't just slinging WoB's back and forth for the hell of it, it's because in theory crafting, evidence must be taken into account. If you speculate, and people have some form of evidence to counter it, you accept the new evidence, incorporate it where applicable, or discard and start over if it breaks the theory. It's called the scientific method.

I have just over a hundred total posts here and damnation near everything I've put forward has been countered. Most of it is hard evidence, I take it as having learned something and move on. Other things, like the Roshar Focus topic, I'll stick with my idea until there is hard evidence to counter it.

It's one thing to speculate and be straight forward about it. It's another to present that speculation as though it's self evident and then treat people like an enemy when they don't agree.

I think your idea is neat, and I didn't fully understand it and presented what I saw as a problem in the reasoning. You further explained your thought process and I understand now. I don't agree, but that doesn't matter. I'm all for speculation, but on this site in particular you've got to say it's your opinion or people are going to want to see the basis for your theory.

It's one of the main reasons I like it here to be honest. The amount of time and effort poured into some of the theories here is daunting. And I think it really does reflect the scientific definition of the word theory. You have a hypothesis. Until you provide evidence to support your hypothesis it's not going to be accepted as a theory.

Like I said, I don't mean any offense. I hope you don't take it that way, but in text, without the emotional cues of face to face speech, you come across as very confrontational. I didn't mean my comment to sound like "you're wrong" as much as "the way it came across to me seems to contradict what we know, please clarify." 

Hope that makes sense.

Edit: just saw that your response to me was in a second post and read your first one. Again, thanks for clarifying your stances. I still don't agree, but your reasoning makes much more sense to me now. 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Calderis

[Hawkido]

36 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Edit: just saw that your response to me was in a second post and read your first one. Again, thanks for clarifying your stances. I still don't agree, but your reasoning makes much more sense to me now. 

Yeah thanks for pointing that out.  I am used to one reply per post, and double post from time to time.

I don't have any problems with people not following my thoughts, or disagreeing with them.  If you have problems following, then ask why I think that, I will give my supporting information or if you want I will post the library where I have went through the books either with word searches or the like.  I really do recommend doing the Ambition word search.  And I don't know If I posted my other looney theory about the Ghost Bloods being Kelsier's Faction before today, but a Cognitive Shadow is a ghost, and hemalurgy deals with blood, and the GhostBloods are world hoppers and there is a Southern Scandrian as a leader in the GhostBloods  In fact she is the highest ranked GhostBlood that has been on screen.  There is another higher up from Mraise, unknown hierarchical relation to Iyatil, named Thaidakar that is presumed to be a GhostBlood, or a person whom the GhostBloods are doing contract work for on Roshar, but he has yet to get any screen time.  Anyway I ramble, Mraise Complements Shallan on her Ambition.  It is one of the three uses of the Noun Ambition in WoR.

Anyway if all you want to post is "I ain't buyin' it!" I accept that.

[Yata he/him]

@Hawkido I don't understand how could you read all I wrote to you, with the references and say "there are not counterexample".

I think I can't explain the Cognitive Shadow's status better than I already did in the previous post, but just to make it clear again:

- Wax,Szeth,the new Azish's emperor, Jasnah (and probably other characther who recived Healing after their death and are restored to life) are NOT Cognitive Shadow and be a Cognitive Shadow is not a temporarily thing.

Now returning to something I could actually expand, the Ambition and Sel:

- Sel is a Dishardic Shardworld, this mean there are two Shards on it (Khriss's essay on Selish System) and they are Devotion and Dominion

- We know all the magic systems on Sel are actually sub-region expression of the same magic system fueled by D&D

- All the WoB I explicity provided in my previous reply explain how the Wyrm and Fjordel are influenced by Dominion.

All this things together removes all the possibility for Ambition to be on Sel and this is without touch the Realmatic Side. If we considerate that side too, there are still other proofs.

PS: notice also that simply searching the reference to a word to find a Shard is something really useless also if we don't have explicit counterproofs

Edited April 2, 2017 by Yata

[Spoolofwhool]

19 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

Yeah thanks for pointing that out.  I am used to one reply per post, and double post from time to time.

I don't have any problems with people not following my thoughts, or disagreeing with them.  If you have problems following, then ask why I think that, I will give my supporting information or if you want I will post the library where I have went through the books either with word searches or the like.  I really do recommend doing the Ambition word search.  And I don't know If I posted my other looney theory about the Ghost Bloods being Kelsier's Faction before today, but a Cognitive Shadow is a ghost, and hemalurgy deals with blood, and the GhostBloods are world hoppers and there is a Southern Scandrian as a leader in the GhostBloods  In fact she is the highest ranked GhostBlood that has been on screen.  There is another higher up from Mraise, unknown hierarchical relation to Iyatil, named Thaidakar that is presumed to be a GhostBlood, or a person whom the GhostBloods are doing contract work for on Roshar, but he has yet to get any screen time.  Anyway I ramble, Mraise Complements Shallan on her Ambition.  It is one of the three uses of the Noun Ambition in WoR.

Anyway if all you want to post is "I ain't buyin' it!" I accept that.

The whole use of ambition in SA seems to be entirely independent of any indication of the shard since we have confirmation that there are only three shards there.

Also, regarding your idea that Ambition is on Sel, Khriss states in the AU essay on Sel that it is dishardic. Considering that she is aware of Ambition's splintering and has investigated the spread of it investiture, I doubt she would label Sel as such if a significant portion of Ambition's investiture rested there.

Quote

Sel is notable for being dishardic, one of few planets in the Cosmere to attract two separate Shards of Adonalsium: Dominion and Devotion.

- Arcanum Unbounded, The Selish System

Furthermore, there is more evidence that no evidence of Ambition or its influence has been seen before 2009, at which point only Elantris, Mistborn Era 1, and Warbreaker's online drafts had been released. See this WoB from the 2008 Hero of Ages Q&A

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

I will RAFO from here on the other Shards of Adonalsium, as it would be better for me not to give spoilers. Please feel free to speculate. Readers have met four shards other than Ruin and Preservation.

PETER AHLSTROM

Have we met these four by name, or just by influence? I can't think of a name that would go with the one that the Elantris lake is a manifestation of.

Hoid could be one? I know nothing his purpose other than that he shows up in lots of different books, sometimes begging and sometimes telling stories. Since most of these series happen on different planets (though two of them may happen on the same planet as each other), I'm assuming he has mad planet-hopping skills.

...Nightblood...

BRANDON SANDERSON (20 OCTOBER)

Ookla, I'm going to be tight lipped on this, as I don't want to give things away for future books. But I'll tell you this:

You've interacted with two directly.
One is a tough call. You've never met the Shard itself, but you've seen its power.
The other one you have not met directly, but have seen its influence.

[Source]

Based on what we learned afterwards, it's thought that the two interacted with directly are Devotion and Endowment, as their voices were heard by respective characters. The one we've not met but seen the power would be Dominion, as its power is spread throughout Sel in the Dor, and its power would then be seen in all the uses of power which we saw in Elantris. The last then we don't learn about until Way of Kings, but it seems to be indicating Odium. His influence on Sel is seen by the existence of the Dor, as he is the one who created it. Therefore, there isn't any room for Ambition, and a more likely explanation for the usage of ambition in Elantris is that it is simply the best word to use for that context, not some extremely vague reference to a shard. 

[Hawkido]

19 minutes ago, Yata said:

@Hawkido I don't understand how could you read all I write to you, with the references and say "there are not counterexample".

I believe you... there are shards named Domination and Devotion on Sel.  AND SOMETHING MORE.

You seem to remember portions of Kriss's Essay but have ignored this portion of her essay hinting at something more by a scholarly institute that would know better than Kriss.

Quote

I’ve begun to wonder if something greater is happening on Sel than we, at the universities of Silverlight, have guessed. Something with origins lost in time. Perhaps the Ire know more, but they are not speaking on the topic, and have repeatedly denied my requests for collaboration.

- Arcanum Unbounded, The Selish System

I am not ignoring things, you just are not seeing the things I am.

@Spoolofwhool  The only reason I brought up the use of the Word Ambition (as I have stated before) was to point out that as a word it is rarely used in the other books, some of the books it is not used at all in any form.  It is used in the SA in a few forms but as I have stated before mostly descriptively, but for the sake of full disclosure I gave the examples where it was used as a Noun.  Two of which were about the exact same thing Scholarform and one was by the ghostbloods about Shallan.  And as stated I think the GhostBloods are a Kelsier Organization.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Hawkido

[Spoolofwhool]

10 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

I believe you... there are shards named Domination and Devotion on Sel.  AND SOMETHING MORE.

You seem to remember portions of Kriss's Essay but have ignored this portion of her essay hinting at something more by a scholarly institute that would know better than Kriss.

I am not ignoring things, you just are not seeing the things I am.

The essay indicates that something is happening on Sel that they don't understand, not necessarily that there is some other entity. In any case "Something with origins lost in time." does not sound like how Khriss would describe a shard considering they don't have origins lost in time to her, judging by how well she's managed to document them.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Yata he/him]

@Hawkido this is frustrating, did you skip all the other my points or Spool's one ? We have implicit mentions of this. But it seems to me you will continue to say we have no counterproof until someone could provide an explic wob "Ambition isn't on Sel".

It's like to say that Dockson had to be an Durallumin Misting only because we don't have an explicit counterproof

Edited April 2, 2017 by Yata

[Hawkido]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The essay indicates that something is happening on Sel that they don't understand, not necessarily that there is some other entity. In any case "Something with origins lost in time." does not sound like how Khriss would describe a shard considering they don't have origins lost in time to her, judging by how well she's managed to document them.

How many interconnected shards do the ghostbloods want you to get tatoo'd with?  I mean Diamonds... not shards silly me... why would the Cognitive shadow/hemalurgy world hopper faction want you to get THREE interconnected shards tattoo'd on you when diamonds are so much prettier.  What is the origin of Ambition?  Adonalsium.  What is Adonamsium's origin?  Kinda lost in time isn't it.......

and Brando's Quotes you seems to automatically discount these parts even though you included then in your quotes:

Quote

I will RAFO from here on the other Shards of Adonalsium, as it would be better for me not to give spoilers.

Ookla, I'm going to be tight lipped on this, as I don't want to give things away for future books. But I'll tell you this:

I can't see how you and Yata see this as definitive proof that there isn't more.  Brandon states right there in the Quotes "there is more but it will be in future books, I will only tell you this"

 

1 hour ago, Yata said:

 

@Hawkido this is frustrating, did you skip all the other my points or Spool's one ? We have implicit mentions of this. But it seems to me you will continue to say we have no counterproof until someone could provide an explic wob "Ambition isn't on Sel".

It's like to say that Dockson had to be an Durallumin Misting only because we don't have an explicit counterproof

An implicit denial is not a denial.  Especially when your source of the implicit denial also makes the admission in the same essay that there is more going on there than they know of.  Never take an in-story character's implicit word as true especially if they turn around and say there is more that they are ignorant of.  The phrase origins lost in time pins it to at the most distant Adonalsium, which that can't be it, but it could the the origin of this mystery.  So next most distant would be the Shards or Hoid.  And the most likely candidate would be fractions of the oldest entity known.  As if it were Hoid they would have to put that tag in every system's essay.  So Sel is Dishardic, and something more that has its origins lost in time which would be Adonalsium.  Two plus more is about how many interconnected diamonds (or Shards) the GhostBloods want their members to get tattoo'd with.

And as for Dockson, If I had a teneous shred of shaky proof that he was a duralumen misting or an Atium Misting, and you had no counter proof that he wasn't a misting... what grounds would you have to say he ISN'T a misting.  You COULD say "Well, that's a stretch, Mister!" (Pun intended)

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Hawkido

[Yata he/him]

No @Hawkido you are simply ignoring the points.

Khriss isn't the only source, we KNOW from the author that the magic on Sel is powered by D&D, We KNOW the Dor is made by D&D's power, a Splintered shard isn't something subdule....It's an insane amount of power. You can't simple don't see it. If Ambition's power is on Sel there will be in the Dor like the others.

Much more we have a WoB (Spool provided before but http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727/#31 ) we saw the influence of only 4 Shards other than R&P (it was before SA's release) and this are confirmed to be Devotion, Dominion, Endowment and Odium. The first three for their actual role on Sel and Nalthis and the last one for his role in the current Sel's situation.

A Shard, whole or splintered is something you could not miss on a planet. It's probably impossible for an Arcanist to miss it.

You could see this isn't a denial to Ambition on Sel, but it's actually is.

The next point could be debated, but it's quite meaningless because there are also solid information (the ones before) on the topic:

Just as last note, D&D's murder is a fact older than Ambition's one....so if Khriss and the Scholar's comunity has a information about D&D, they has probably information about Ambition too. For example, Khriss didn't mention they don't know Ambition's location.

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Yata

[Hawkido]

50 minutes ago, Yata said:

Khriss isn't the only source, we KNOW from the author that the magic on Sel is powered by D&D, We KNOW the Dor is made by D&D's power, a Splintered shard isn't something subdule....It's an insane amount of power. You can't simple don't see it. If Ambition's power is on Sel there will be in the Dor like the others.

Quote

I will RAFO from here on the other Shards of Adonalsium, as it would be better for me not to give spoilers.

Ookla, I'm going to be tight lipped on this, as I don't want to give things away for future books. But I'll tell you this:

Yup.. there is your source right there... and you are correct... He did say D&D were the source of the Dor  I don't remember ever once contradicting that, yet you keep bringing it up. I am talking about what he hid, not what he unhid.  The things right up there in those quotes from him where he says "I don't want to spoil the future books." Those are the things I am looking for because he said he hid them so we could go look for them.  I am looking for the answers to questions he would RAFO.  The Questions that he will just answer, while informative, are not much fun.

Very soon after the shattering Odium went after Ambition, wounded him/her but Ambition got away and fled, Ambition was later splintered (we do not have information who splintered him/her).  Odium searched for Ambition, but the first two shards he did splinter were D&D.  We do not know when or where Ambition was splintered only that he/she was splintered after D&D, He could have been splintered immediately after D&D, Ambition could have bled out passively with no final coup degrace, but Ambition would have died trying to stay alive.  Patching or repairing the shard would require power, ambition would not trust another shard and might try to hide where Odium just searched and did murder.  I don't believe Odium did finish off Ambition, as he tends to stuff them into the CR.  Ambition would have hidden him/herself to give him time to find a way to repair the damage and heal.  He/she would have tried to contain the spill of investiture so as to not give away his location.  So he would have hid near a power that would mask his investiture.  Ambition the Desire for More would had hidden under the Desire for Control, because who would notice if the Desire for Control slowly turned into the Desire for More Control.

Quote

Readers have met four shards other than Ruin and Preservation.

I do not see the word ONLY in that quote.  So, YES, you are correct, I am Ignoring your points which do not match the facts.  The Only thing being implied here is the word ONLY by the Forum Member Yata.  If I said you have seen 4 cats in your life, but you had actually seen 8 cats, would my statement be false. No, because I did not say you had ONLY seen 4 cats.

It is called Creative Misdirection, now let me ask you a question, which Cosmere book uses the phrase Creative misdirection?   Ill give you one hint.

Quote

“She calls it the school of creative misdirection,” the seon said solemnly in his deep, stately voice.

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Hawkido

[Yata he/him]

This make clear you don't understand how the Cosmere and the Realmatic Theory work and you are twisting and mixing things together only to try to cancel all the counterproofs aganist your theory.

- A Shard hasn't really a choice to invest or not. This would happen naturally over the time if he remain too long in the same places (and here we are talking at least of 5 thousand years) once this happened after a while the mere Shard's presence will make magic arose on the place...this is the reason I showed you that D&D as source of all Selish Magic is alone a proof of the absence of other Shards there (notice also that with Ambition's splintered there is no mind to try to mitigate this default process).

- Odium will never leave a Shard also a mortal wounded one flees away. At the Vessel's death the Shard could be picked by someone else and this in the end will simply turn all Odium's effort meaninless. Much more Odium seek to kill Ambition because He saw in the Shard (not the Vessel) a great problem to himself, so simply replacing the Vessel would be useless to him....On this point notice also that Khriss states Ambition was splintered so no doubt, Ambition was really Splintered. his power will ravage out of control in the Cognitive Realm like D&D's ones. For the nature of Spiritual Realm and Shard's Investiment.....I really doubt Odium could "lose" an enemy Shard once they began to clash.

- Notice also if you are proposing a Preservation-like's death for Ambition. Khriss states the Shards' death before Leras were rapid not a long bleeding death like Leras' one and this just because Ruin didn't know how to properly Splinter a Shard. Something Odium knows (and knowed from before Ambition's murder because we know he used to kill D&D).

Edited April 2, 2017 by Yata

[AeonaRin she/her]

9 hours ago, Hawkido said:

 

#1: Please do the word search, if you can.  The use of the word Ambition as a noun does not occur very often in this series, I believe there are only three times. it happens outside Elantris, both are in Words of Radiance and both are pointed at Scholar form  Once in the Song of listing at a chapter start and once when Eshonai tells Venli, who was wearing Scholar Form, "I Love you, but your Ambition Frightens me".  The Last time was by the Ghost Bloods (or the Cognative Shadow/Hemalurgy worldhopper faction as I like to call them, which only plays into my theory) says Shallan has Ambition.  That might be tenius evidence, but as there is zero contradictory evidence, then it is the "Best evidence" we have.  My words were chosen carefully.

#2: It's on Coppermind, was reported by DawnSard on this form.

#3: Your use of the word "guess" as a derogatory on the theory board puzzles me, A guess based on evidence in an inference.  I agree that the evidence is tenuous.  But it is the only evidence we have.  If you have other contradictory evidence please present it.  I come here to read other peoples' crack brained theories as much as post my own.  Many times I learn something and if someone actually gives a reference I will go check it out.  Yata and I don't agree on much but I go check out every reference he gives because he sees the Cosmere much more differently than I do.  I don't think he is wrong, I just don't see the same things he does, and our theories differ wildly for reasons of perspective. 

And as to your later post, I am sorry you felt you had to become hateful because someone else spoke their thoughts.  I hope you recover your good graces and social etiquette and use your next post to actually contribute.  This forum is supposed to be for open discussion, I hope it remains so.  

1. Word search is not any kind of evidence, but wishful thinking. Laws of probability indicate it's most likely a chance. Conjunction fallacy. 

2. The fact that there is a WoB saying there's a shard in space, does not mean Ambition is not, the more that it is on Sel, on which we know were 2 shards. This is exactly the kind of logical errors I'm talking about. 

A is not B

B is C

Therefore A is not C. 

cats are not dogs

dogs are mammals

therefore cats are not mammals

Association fallacy. 

3. "Wild guesses" refered to Kel taking up Autonomy and Devotion wich was based on no evidence on your side. 

4. How is pointing someones errors hateful? You made several fallacies, you can't argue if your logic is lacking. I see no point in discussion if the proposition is flawed. You ignored Dominion completely, you jumped to conclusions multiple times. 

I have nothing against you personally, man, I don't know you. I have a lot against your arguments because some of them are invalid. 

Edited April 2, 2017 by strumienpola

[AeonaRin she/her]

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Hawkido OK, please don't take offense to this because I don't mean any insult. Speculation is all well and good. I do it all the time. Your posting on a forum with a pretty storming fanatical fan base for an author that is willing to give out a lot of info. People aren't just slinging WoB's back and forth for the hell of it, it's because in theory crafting, evidence must be taken into account. If you speculate, and people have some form of evidence to counter it, you accept the new evidence, incorporate it where applicable, or discard and start over if it breaks the theory. It's called the scientific method.

Also this ^ 

 

Sorry for double post, I do not know how to put another quote in an edit? 

Edited April 2, 2017 by strumienpola

[Aaronator17]

So I think I'm going to try and do my best to try and summarize what we've all come up with and give my honest opinions with as many facts as possible.

We know that Ambition was mortally wounded by Odium in the Threnody system, fled, and ended up being Splintered elsewhere. Whether this splintering was done by Odium or some other force we don't know, but we do know that it is possible to un-shatter a Shard (though what Odium did to Devotion and Dominion on Sel may be an exception to this). From what the Ire say, Threnody has a border with either Sel or Scadrial (wording is unclear), placing the three Cognitive realms close if not adjacent to each other. 

I am personally not quite clear on the timeline, but if memory serves, what @Yata said is true, and Ambition was wounded after Devotion and Dominion were Splintered by Odium on Sel. Also, Scadrial was formed later (in the grand scheme of things) by Preservation and Ruin.

It is possible that a wounded and weak Ambition thought to flee to Sel (as the last place Odium would look). Since a significant portion of Ambition's energy was left on Threnody, it is possible that Ambition may not have the same effect on Sel as a fully powered Shard.

However, I think it is more likely that Ambition would have been too weak to deal with the power of the Dor in Sel's Cognitive realm (the combined, raw, mindless power of two shards), and if they had a choice would have tried to go elsewhere. 

I think it is also likely that Preservation and Ruin would not 'build' their planet near to the Shattered Ambition if they had a choice. Therefore I think that the most likely scenario is that Ambition is Shattered in space and what is left of the power is unconnected to the nearby magic systems.

I believe that while there may be many challenges, Kelsier has the time, stubbornness, and drive to discover all he can about the Cosmere and his place in it. This could include travelling off-world since it is likely he now has a physical body and is not bound in the same way as when he was purely a Cognitive entity. This could include finding the broken shard of Ambition and taking up it's power, perhaps even travelling to Threnody to recover the lost power left there after the fight with Odium.

These are all opinions and theories I have formed, some based on fact, some based on inference, some on pure speculation; but I think it's important to be able to clearly distinguish between all of the above.

There are many  things we still do not know, and speculation is an awesome thing, thank you both @Hawkido and @Calderis for trying to meet each other half-way and bring the discussion back to where we all feel comfortable expressing our opinions. 

[Yata he/him]

39 minutes ago, Aaronator17 said:

It is possible that a wounded and weak Ambition thought to flee to Sel (as the last place Odium would look). Since a significant portion of Ambition's energy was left on Threnody, it is possible that Ambition may not have the same effect on Sel as a fully powered Shard.

Ambition didn't leave a meaningful amount of Power on therenody (for a Shard's standard) or the Planet would exibit the typical sign of an Invested Shard. Maybe a single (or multiple) Splinter of Ambition was left there (if we want to be a bit exagerate, something Stormfather or Nightwatcher level) but it would be nothing compared to a Shard.

I want to add a simple other point....We can't actually know if Scadrial was there or not at the time of D&D's murder or the Ambition's one. It's possible, but we have no clues about for now. Anyway the Ire were on Scadrial's CR (very far from the center but still in Scadrial's region) so it seems a Therenody's border is really close to a Scadrial's one but this tell us quite nothing about a Sel

Edited April 2, 2017 by Yata

[Spoolofwhool]

3 hours ago, strumienpola said:

Also this ^ 

 

Sorry for double post, I do not know how to put another quote in an edit? 

If I real what I did correctly, I create the quote in the box for a new post, then select the border of the quote and copy it. After that you should be able to paste it into the edit text window. 

Edit: Only works on a computer. 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[AeonaRin she/her]

2 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

If I real what I did correctly, I create the quote in the box for a new post, then select the border of the quote and copy it. After that you should be able to paste it into the edit text window. 

Yeah, that might have worked have I been on a computer, but the mobile version od the forum sometimes doesn't listen to me  thanks anyways!

Edited April 2, 2017 by strumienpola

[Spoolofwhool]

12 minutes ago, strumienpola said:

Yeah, that might have worked have I been on a computer, but the mobile version od the forum sometimes doesn't listen to me  thanks anyways!

Oh, whoops, cut out the part where I said that I had to do it on a computer. It doesn't work for mobile for me either. 

[Hawkido]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

Ambition didn't leave a meaningful amount of Power on therenody (for a Shard's standard) or the Planet would exibit the typical sign of an Invested Shard. Maybe a single (or multiple) Splinter of Ambition was left there (if we want to be a bit exagerate, something Stormfather or Nightwatcher level) but it would be nothing compared to a Shard.

Do you mean there would be something other than "Evil" that is consuming the largest continent on the planet?  Because there is that.  And also the fact that many people get trapped as a CS when they die.  Which is another of my reasons for shipping Kel/Ambition.

@Aaronator17  I think that is a pretty good sum of the things discussed.  Just add in Ambition's drive to keep going, not even letting death stop him and you get the reason for the CSs on Threnody.  Kel's drive to keep going even in death and you get a link attuning Kel to Ambition.

The WoB said there is a Shard in Space but it didn't say it was dead.  And the Essay on Threnody said that the Ambition battle did occur in space between the planets of threnody but it said Ambition Fled and was splintered elsewhere.  My thoughts is that Ambition fled, and tried to hide Yoda Style on Degoba, er I mean Sel, masking his power by hiding by a dead sithlord, doh, I mean Dominion.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Hawkido

[Yata he/him]

28 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

Do you mean there would be something other than "Evil" that is consuming the largest continent on the planet?  Because there is that.  And also the fact that many people get trapped as a CS when they die.  Which is another of my reasons for shipping Kel/Ambition.

Possible but unlikely to me, so you if you assume the "Evil" was the Ambition's Splinter (or Splinters). Why did it become malevolent ? And why only after thousands of years (there are at least 4-5 thousands of years without any kind of problem) ? If this bad Splinter is so malevolent to destroy the Therenody's people, why did he not simply follow them to continue ?

31 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

 

@Aaronator17  I think that is a pretty good sum of the things discussed.  Just add in Ambition's drive to keep going, not even letting death stop him and you get the reason for the CSs on Threnody.  Kel's drive to keep going even in death and you get a link attuning Kel to Ambition.

Yeah Kel could be a good Vessel for Ambition but again, there is no reason for him to "have to be" Ambition's Vessel. Notice also Kel is probably changed from the one we know, centuries as Cognitive Shadow probably changed him, it's mainly a Cognitive Being (like a Spren)....His being is more flexible to outside influence than a living being. But this is tangential.

33 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

The WoB said there is a Shard in Space but it didn't say it was dead.  And the Essay on Threnody said that the Ambition battle did occur in space between the planets of threnody but it said Ambition Fled and was splintered elsewhere.  My thoughts is that Ambition fled, and tried to hide Yoda Style on Degoba, er I mean Sel, masking his power by hiding by a dead sithlord, doh, I mean Dominion.

Again the whole point of at least a page of posts, show you how this is very unlikely. I would say actual impossible.

[Hawkido]

@strumienpola I will introduce you to my method for the word search, as you seem unable to differentiate between my research and my theories, and you are so unmotivated to do the search and would rather sit back and sling fallacies at people (you shouldn't do that, it is rude):

#1 Search for the word Ambition in all the books.

#2 Eliminate all negative forms of the word i.e. unambitious, Not ambitious enough, Could have been more ambitious (which implies unambitious)

#3 Read each passage to determine if the word is just used descriptively.  While this is a very subjective process, I made sure to mention the occurrences in all the books that were not clearly descriptive in nature.  Truth in disclosure.

#4 Since we are looking for Ambition, we start focusing on Ambition as a Noun, Indicating Ambition's nature or purpose.

#5 look to see if there are any statements equating the use of the word to to another shard's word used in the same manner.  We find one occurrence,

#6 Cross reference that occurrence with the indicated subject and you find more hits on Ambition and in the same vein as the others.

Here is a list of the research on Ambition:

Quote

Mistborn 1 : 2 counts all descriptive

Mistborn 2 : 3 counts all descriptive 

Mistborn 3 : 0 Counts

Mistborn 4 : 1 count descriptive

Mistborn 5 : 2 counts 1 descriptive/1 Referring to Kel's plan to kill the Lord Ruler

Mistborn 6 : 0 counts

Warbreaker : 2 counts all descriptive

Arcanum Unbounded : 1+multiple counts 1 in a statement by Kel/the rest in the Threnodite Essay directly about the shard Ambition.

Way of Kings : 4 counts 3 descriptive/1 in the implied negative (Prior Oathstone holders did not have Ambition)

Words of Radience : 7 counts 4 in the negative/2 referring to Scholarform/1 GhostBlood reference to Shallan

Elantris 10th anniversary Ed. : 7 Counts 2 Descriptive/5 counts referring to it as an attribute desired and respected by the Derethi Order, 1 of those statements Directly equates Ambition to Devotion.

 

Let us search for Devotion in all the books and see what we find:

Quote

Mistborn 1 : 2 counts 1 about one of Sazed's religions/1 about a religious painting

Mistborn 2 : 5 counts Kandra Contract/Liege/Spouse/Spouse/Allomantic pull 

Mistborn 3 : 3 Counts Survivors devotion to Vin/Kandra Devotion to the Seconds/TLR wanting Devotion of his Priests

Mistborn 4 : 0 counts

Mistborn 5 : 0 counts

Mistborn 6 : 0 counts

Warbreaker : 1 count

Arcanum Unbounded : 7 Counts all directly referring to the Shard.

Way of Kings : 2 counts Rock's near-Devotion to Kal/Dalinar's devotion to the King

Words of Radience : 0 Counts

Elantris 10th anniversary Ed. : 6 counts 1 used in the Negative/5 used in the same manner as Ambition.

 @Yata once again has turned an ambiguous quote into something definitive,  At no time is it stated that Odium actually Splintered Ambition directly, the Statement that Ambition was splintered elsewhere was done in the passive voice.  So, while it is possible, it has not been stated that it is so, and when Kriss mentions it she omits any sense of certainty that Odium HAS splintered another shard, she does specifically list 3 (D&D and Honor)  two he shoved in the CR.  One he did not.

Quote

This Shard undoubtedly caused the Splintering of Devotion, Dominion, Honor, and perhaps others throughout the cosmere.

-Kriss AU Roshar Essay

So let us look at another shard that has been splinter and not shoved into the CR like D&D, so here is Honor:

Quote

Mistborn 1 : 3 counts honor to see you/defend the honor/honor guard

Mistborn 2 : 7 counts 2 kandra contract/2 honor guard/1 honor agreement/1 implied honor in the negative/and 1 count of Elend's action to vacate the throne.

Mistborn 3 : 8 Counts 4 counts of man/word of honor/2 Kandra Contract/1 count having little honor/1 count of Preservation giving Sentience and Honor to people.

Mistborn 4 : 4 counts 1 of Wax being a man of honor/3 counts of the roughs being where Honor dies.

Mistborn 5 : 1 counts Uncle Edwarn will fix stuffed pig in Wax's honor.

Mistborn 6 : 0 counts

Warbreaker : 8 count 3 honor guard/die with honor/2 honor the fallen-obligation/it's an honor/ and with honor

Arcanum Unbounded : 6 Counts 3 descriptive/3 directly referring to the Shard.

Way of Kings : 36 counts these results were skewed as Honor Spren and son of honor and honorblade word of honor account for the Majority so of those not in that group (ignoring the Intro use of the word honor. About 8 either directly refer to honor or to honor-as-an-attribute.

Words of Radience : 34 counts these results were skewed as Honor Spren and son of honor and honorblade word of honor account for the majority so of those not in that group (ignoring the Intro use of the word honor. About 7 either directly refer to honor or to honor-as-an-attribute.  I might have missed one or two  But we knew the SA was going to be rife with "Honor".

Elantris 10th anniversary Ed. : 15 counts 2 Honor alliance-promise/nobleman's honor/2 men of honor/our honor/2 with honor/3 honor guard/defiled Arelon's honor/an honor to be forced to marry/did it for honor

*edit* I wanted those lists to start collapsed... hmmm I guess If I had used a spoiler tag?

Edited April 2, 2017 by Hawkido

[Spoolofwhool]

4 hours ago, Hawkido said:

I think that is a pretty good sum of the things discussed.  Just add in Ambition's drive to keep going, not even letting death stop him and you get the reason for the CSs on Threnody.

WoB is that people coming back after dying on Threnody is not shard-based. While this doesn't exclude Ambition's investiture tampering with the system, it does seem to fairly definitely exclude that Ambition's investiture could've directly caused to start.

Quote

RHANDRIC

That's something that stood out to me, because in all your other magic systems that we've seen so far there has to be some sort of snapping to occur, and that's unique, because- [...] Is there an active magic system on Threnody?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Threnody has a non Shard-based...it depends on what you call a magic system. Do spirits coming back from the dead count as magic? It's science to them, but, it's goofy science.

[Source]

 

 

[Hawkido]

29 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

WoB is that people coming back after dying on Threnody is not shard-based. While this doesn't exclude Ambition's investiture tampering with the system, it does seem to fairly definitely exclude that Ambition's investiture could've directly caused to start.

 

 

That isn't what the WoB says.  What it says is that Threnody has a magic system that is not based upon a shard (as the system doesn't have a shard, but it does a a few chunks of Ambition).  But the people coming back as a CS is science to them, not magic.  Nahz says there are Rites and Rituals to perform to make it happen, but it also can happen naturally.  My belief is, if you are a strongly Ambitious person like Silence's Mother, you will come back as a CS.

 

You also have to take into account that Brandon stopped himself, Either he was going to say something spoilery, or something that was incorrect.  So he changed the question so as to avoid either the spoiler or the incorrect statement. 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Hawkido

[The One Who Connects he/him]

@Hawkido

There is a WoB (fairly sure it was prior to learning of Ambition) that said "Odium has killed at least one more Shard than the ones you know about"   I'm on mobile so I can't really find it that easily.

That is where we should direct efforts towards understanding what really happened to Ambition.