Aaronator17

Personally, I like to think that almost every Cosmere book so far straddles the line of sci-fi and fantasy so well that they could very well be considered 'Science-fantasy'

Ok so I hope I'm not bringing this up too long after the most recent comment, but I may have some insight to offer. There are obviously those who would argue that only the books are canon, and others that argue that the MAG (unless specified otherwise) can also be considered canon. For the sake of it, I have extrapolated my own Hemalurgic charts based on both of these inferences (with colour coding!) Both interpretations rely on the fact that the type of metal (External Pushing) that steals Allomantic abilities in the quadrant on the left, steals Feruchemical abilities in the quadrant on the right. This is an obvious pattern observed in the Basic metals, but one that has to be inferred for the Higher metals, since Aluminium (Internal Pulling) is confirmed to steal Allomantic Enhancement powers. First - Assume that the MAG is canon unless contradicted: The MAG states that Duralumin steals Feruchemical Spiritual powers, It also states that Gold should steal Feruchemical Hybrid powers (I'll get to this in a second). Therefore Electrum should steal Allomantic Temporal Powers. Additionally - as seen in the basic metals - the other two metals in each quadrant are known to steal Human attributes associated with that quadrant, so I have filled those in for the sake of completion. I'm not gonna lie to you, I don't like how this diagram looks. While the patterns are logically extrapolated from the available data, it really just does not look right. Therefore.... Second - Knowledge taken only from the books: So this DEFINITELY requires a lot of extrapolation. This is because the only confirmed Hemalurgic ability for the higher metals is Aluminium, so we have to work it out from there. Again, assuming that the type of metal that steals Allomancy in the quadrant on the left (Aluminium - Internal Pulling), steals Feruchemical abilities in the right quadrant, that means that Gold should steal Feruchemical Physical powers. I say Physical powers because we know by WoB that 'Hybrid' is an in-universe term, and that there are actually two physical quadrants. Additionally, Pewter spikes are known to steal the Feruchemical ability to store Health (which lies in the second Physical Quadrant) and Strength (first Physical Quadrant). My explanation for this is that Gold and Pewter are actually interchangeable Hemalurgically, and Gold was/is more expensive to use that Pewter. It may also be that given they have different metallic structures, they may also have different theftpoints and bindpoints, and so the knowledge of using Gold for Hemalurgy died with the Lord Ruler without actually being told to anyone (why use Gold when you could just use Pewter right?). But I digress; the rest of the extrapolation comes logically from the fact that the three confirmed metals that Steal Allomantic abilities are all different types of metals for each quadrant. Steel is External Pushing, Bronze is Internal Pushing, and Aluminium is Internal Pulling. Therefore it stands to reason that the Metal that steals Allomantic Temporal abilities in the fourth quadrant would be External Pulling - Cadmium. Following that, using my own reasoning, Chromium should steal Feruchemical Spiritual abilities, and the other two metals from each quadrant steal associated Human traits. This diagram looks much better and as a note is EXACTLY what @Nashan'Elin suggested at the start of this post. The main reason I made this post was to show both sides of the argument next to each other. My personal opinion is that (based on the patterns seen above) the MAG were using the currently known metals in order to produce a cool RPG, but that the actual diagram is the second one.

Keep in mind though that the Heralds are still bound by the Oathpact, whether they think so or not. So i think for them it's atually a little different. A Returned would be the closest thing we have to what Kelsier is and we know that they have worldhopped before. So unless there's something specific about Cognitive Shadows and their ties to physical bodies through Sdcadrian magic, Kelsier should be similar, he would just need to figure out how.

Don't know why someone downvoted you unless they suspected you were trolling. To answer your question, Vasher is able to supress his Divine Breath, which means that when he gives his breaths to someone, he basically gives everything except his Divine Breath. This does put him in danger though because he will quickly need to find more breath to sustain him.

Yeah, it's also the metal used to make the Chimeras (holding an unknown trait). However it's just the fan-name for it, not the official in-universe name (yet?).

In addition to the above, there was a relatively recent WoB that actually specified that not all shards are associated with a specific number. Plus there's no evidence to suggest that even if they were, that their alloys would be limited to that number. 16 is a number related specifically to the Cosmere (and also to Preservation). Are you thinking perhaps that Trellium is an alloy of another God metal and Atium? That would actually be really interesting! Especially given how rare Atium is in Era 2 and the title of the next book (The Lost Metal [Atium]). Just wondering where you're getting 48 from?

You are absolutely correct I must have misclicked on my calculator I hadn't actually noticed this! Thanks for pointing it out, and yes that's a good point. So I guess the question becomes is stealing multiple (not necessarily all) attributes an ability of the God metals, or just Atium and 'Trellium' thus far because of something specific that we don't quite know yet?

I believe there is a WoB that says there could exist 'God metals' of every shard, so that's actually 16 additional groups of 16 - 17 if you count Harmonium - for a total of 18 groups of 16 metals. 16 x 18 = 272 total metals that should (in theory) all have an allomantic, feruchemical and hemalurgic function. Interestingly, Atium's ability to steal anything Hemalurgically is not unique, as we know that 'Trellium' can also steal multiple attributes (though maybe not to the same degree). It's entirely possible that all God Metals actually have the same Hemalurgic ability to steal anything, and we just haven't seen enough Lerasium or Harmonium for it to be used in that way. Side note: Lets not try stabbing someone with a pure Harmonium spike, or do so while I'm safely outside the blast radius

Don't worry, I know that Oathbringer is the title of the third Stormlight Archive book and also Dalinar's Shardblade, my real question is this: Since Brandon has said he will be keeping the theme of the previous two titles, what in universe book is Oathbringer? I can think of a couple of things, 1) A history of the shardblade Oathbringer and the various wielders throughout history 2) A biography of Dalinar himself, possibly in writing during the events of the story (I feel like any biography published before this would be more focused on him as the Blackthorn, and not as a literal bringer of oaths) Without too much out there to speculate on, what do people think Oathbringer is about?

Absolutely no apologies necessary

Please be careful with how you say things in future @Hawkido, because the above reads like it is confirmed that Fortune is a shard, when it is in realty just a theory. Admittedly it is a very popular theory, and there is surely nothing to say that there couldn't be a Shard with the Intent Fortune, but you need to qualify your statements more; clearly indicating when they are based on confirmed facts, other theories, or your own speculation. Also, I feel like at this point the discussion has evolved beyond the original topic which was basically "could Kelsier find and claim the shattered shard of Ambition", so thanks everyone who got involved for your input. This was my first official theory post here on the 17th Shard, and I'm really happy that so many people got involved. Despite some controversy in this thread I will continue to come up with crazy random theories, and hopefully I'll be spiritedly debating with you all again soon. If you @Hawkido or @Yata want to continue the current discussion feel free to start another thread; might I recommend "Ambition is on Sel, associated with Devotion, and trapped as Jaddeth?!" or something as descriptive

So I think I'm going to try and do my best to try and summarize what we've all come up with and give my honest opinions with as many facts as possible. We know that Ambition was mortally wounded by Odium in the Threnody system, fled, and ended up being Splintered elsewhere. Whether this splintering was done by Odium or some other force we don't know, but we do know that it is possible to un-shatter a Shard (though what Odium did to Devotion and Dominion on Sel may be an exception to this). From what the Ire say, Threnody has a border with either Sel or Scadrial (wording is unclear), placing the three Cognitive realms close if not adjacent to each other. I am personally not quite clear on the timeline, but if memory serves, what @Yata said is true, and Ambition was wounded after Devotion and Dominion were Splintered by Odium on Sel. Also, Scadrial was formed later (in the grand scheme of things) by Preservation and Ruin. It is possible that a wounded and weak Ambition thought to flee to Sel (as the last place Odium would look). Since a significant portion of Ambition's energy was left on Threnody, it is possible that Ambition may not have the same effect on Sel as a fully powered Shard. However, I think it is more likely that Ambition would have been too weak to deal with the power of the Dor in Sel's Cognitive realm (the combined, raw, mindless power of two shards), and if they had a choice would have tried to go elsewhere. I think it is also likely that Preservation and Ruin would not 'build' their planet near to the Shattered Ambition if they had a choice. Therefore I think that the most likely scenario is that Ambition is Shattered in space and what is left of the power is unconnected to the nearby magic systems. I believe that while there may be many challenges, Kelsier has the time, stubbornness, and drive to discover all he can about the Cosmere and his place in it. This could include travelling off-world since it is likely he now has a physical body and is not bound in the same way as when he was purely a Cognitive entity. This could include finding the broken shard of Ambition and taking up it's power, perhaps even travelling to Threnody to recover the lost power left there after the fight with Odium. These are all opinions and theories I have formed, some based on fact, some based on inference, some on pure speculation; but I think it's important to be able to clearly distinguish between all of the above. There are many things we still do not know, and speculation is an awesome thing, thank you both @Hawkido and @Calderis for trying to meet each other half-way and bring the discussion back to where we all feel comfortable expressing our opinions.

Keep in mind this is told from the perspective of Hoid, who we know has been on the 'wrong' side of local translations before. So it very well could be a bandolier, though maybe not one designed for ammo.

For quite a number of reasons actually. First, as a Cognitive Shadow and a Sliver who knows how to inhabit and take over a Physical body (not technically confirmed but heavily implied), Kelsier is not bound by time the same way others are on Scadrial. Even Marsh will eventually run out of Atium, and when he goes and dies he won't be able to stay in the Cognitive Realm indefinitely like Kelsier can. This brings me to my next point, that Kelsier as a Sliver has already held the power of a Shard, and I believe this has 'primed' him to take up another shard. Sure, we don't know how anyone could reform a Shattered shard, but Kelsier has the time to figure it out. He is also fascinated by the Cosmere, and wants to discover more about it. Maybe fascinated is the wrong word. More like; he realised how small he really was in the universe and how much he didn't know, and wants to not feel like that again. Also, assuming a Connection to Ambition is required, maybe an Ire-like device is needed, maybe it isn't? We honestly don't know, but Kelsier fits the bill like almost nobody else does, and I think it's not only an awesome way to continue Kelsier's story, but (to me) it's a very believable one.

I think he's something closer to a Returned or a Herald at this point, a Cognitive shadow connected to a Physical body. We know that it is possible for Returned to Worldhop so I can't see any reason why Kelsier - with a perpendicularity - couldn't do the same. The way he achieved this I believe is through Hemalurgy, not through any methods used off-Scadrial.

We don't have examples but there is a WoB that shattering is not permanent (though I think what happened to Devotion and Dominion prevents anyone from taking up their shards easily). I feel like there should be more to Kelsier's story. Even after (presumably) acquiring a new body, as a Cognitive shadow and a Sliver, he could repeatedly use the same method to keep returning to 'life' in the physical realm, at least until he decides that he has done everything that he wants to do and moves Beyond. We don't know where Ambition finally shattered, but Threnody neighbours Scadrial in the Cognitive Realm and I think a wounded Ambition couldn't have gotten far. That to me says it may not be as difficult as one might think for someone from Scadrial to reach where Ambition's power might still lie.

So an incredible thought just occurred to me. What if Kelsier were to take up to power of Ambition? Yes Ambition was mortally wounded and Splintered, but we don't know if this Splintering was done in a 'permanent' way that Odium seems to be able to do. If Ambition fled after their battle with Odium and the power was splintered some other way, that power could coalesce later and be taken up by someone else. Kelsier is already a Sliver, and has been the vessel of a Shard before (albeit temporarily). He also is very interested in understanding more about the Cosmere as a whole since his introduction to the extended universe in Secret History. If the power of Ambition were to be brought together again, Kelsier would be the perfect vessel for it, i think the Intent fits his nature almost perfectly, and would put him in an incredible position to not only learn about the Cosmere, but to meddle as he is so fond of doing. What do we all think?

I hope for everybody nearby's safety that you're not implying an Allomancer should try putting Harmonium in their mouths!?

Really interesting interpretation LiquidBlue, and I think your explanations might be changing my mind a little. While I still don't like the idea that a person would have to be a NIcrosil Twinborn and a Surgebinder, storing Stormlight Feruchemically within a Nicrosilmind then burning it could in theory function almost exactly like normal Compounding on Scadrial, which is to draw on Preservation to increase the stored attribute, in this case Stormlight. This could mean that an individual might be able to Surgebind without any Spheres or environmental Stormlight, provided they had at least a small amount stored. They could perform an endless Compounding trick and be perpetually full of Stormlight (much like Miles' near-infinite healing ability). This assumes of course that one could Store Stormlight within a Metalmind, which may or may not be possible with Nicrosil. I still don't like it because it requires a ridiculously rare set of attributes (provided Hemalurgy is not involved) to be able to do, and a part of me wants the system to be simpler and more available than that. Of course being an Allomancer and Radiant at the same time is also a ridiculously rare combination of abilities. A small note on the Spren though, we do know that their energy can be used to provide Stormlight and power Surgebinding through the Nahel bond (when Syl sacrifices herself for Kaladin). They are still Investiture and part of a God's power, regardless of their sentience/sapience. While normal Stormlight may not be enough to key the power toward Surgebinding, I feel like the Connection that particular Spren have to Roshar and the Gods and their energies is important in trying to work out how this process would work.

This is definitely an interesting topic, how magics can be used on different worlds and used to power each other. I think for your specific example, one would have to be both an Allomancer and have access to the Surges (either through the Nahel bond or wielding an Honourblade). The trick here would be to draw on the power of Preservation by burning a metal, yet somehow focusing the power to manipulate the Surges. We know that something like this is possible because of Compounding, whereby the power of Preservation is drawn on to produce an enhanced Feruchemical effect. Compounding is obviously a lot easier because the magics are very closely related (considering both Allomancy and Feruchemy use metals as their 'focus'), but the theoretical principle still stands and should apply for Allomancy and Surgebinding. I don't think that Storing Stormlight within Feruchemical Metalmind and then burning it would be enough to focus the magic toward the Surges, plus that would require the person to not only be an Allomancer and a Feruchemist and have access to the Surges, but also be specifically someone who could Store in and burn Nicrosil. This does not satisfy me because on Roshar Stormlight is not the 'focus' for the magic, it is the fuel. For Fabrials the focus is the type and cut of the gem, and the type of Spren trapped inside. For the Knights Radiant their focus in accessing the Surges is their Nahel bond with their Spren. For the Heralds I believe that the bond to the Honourblades act as the focus, allowing them access to the Surges. Stormlight is the fuel that powers all of these functions, much like Preservation's power fuels Allomancy. Therefore I think that one way of powering Surgebinding through Allomancy would require you to trap a specific spren within a bead of metal (much like a Fabrial requires a spren trapped in a gemstone) then burn that metal; the power would be drawn from Preservation, but focused by the spren to perform Rosharan magic (depending on the Surges you have access to this may require a different spren). Admittedly my 'Spren trapped in metal' idea sounds a little contrived to me too (how/why would a spren get trapped in metal?) but I imagine if it were possible, this would be one way to key the power of Preservation toward powering the Surges.

I love cookies!! And thanks for the warning @TheCremling, but i feel like my desire for delicious baked goods outweighs any thought i may have for self Preservation

HI all While I've been reading Sanderson for a long time now, I have only really started actively engaging with the Cosmere community more recently (particularly on Reddit). I'm a bit of a crackpot theorist (try not to hold it against me). I love the magic that exists in Sanderson's worlds, how there are overarching rules that govern how these godly powers manifest, and that excellent blend of genres known as 'Science Fantasy'. I try to keep myself as updated as possible on all of the recent WoBs, but there are so many that it can be a bit hard to keep track sometimes. That's one of the reason i joined up here and (hopefully) start to become a bit more actively involved. I'm really excited (and nervous) to start reading and posting some theories and I hope to be a fun addition to the community. Thanks for taking the 30 seconds to read this and i hope you all have an excellent day