A new vessel for Ambition

[AeonaRin she/her]

I'm not saying that he wouldn't be a good fit for Ambition. He totally would. It's just a long way from where he is the last time we see him to taking up the actual shard, and this theory is just a bit far-fetched. He'd have to:

1. Bind himself to a new body. We assume he did that. 

2. It's not said if his new body would immediately allow him to leave Scadial, just like Oversleep said, we don't actually know if the returned have troubles worldhopping. 

3. Learn about Ambition.

4. Be bothered. Not sure if he would. 

5. Find out where the splinters are, and there is possibility that no one in cosmere currently knows that. 

6. Learn how to un-splinter a shard, and for what I understand there is a in-world debate wether it is possible or not, so he would have to find a way himself (not a scholar) or out-smart someone that did (more likely, but still he'd need to find the right person) 

7. And then he could actually take up the shard. 

So, like I said in a first comment, it's not impossible but it is unlikely. 

I would like it though, because Shard of Ambition could be a potential villain, and I see villain material in Kelsier. 

[Hawkido]

As to where Ambition is... Just do a word search in the book Elantris for the word "Ambition".  That seems to be where Ambition is.  Mentioned in the same manner and sentence as Devotion, and connected with the devotion faction Shu-Dereth multiple times.

If you think that is a stretch, do word searches on the rest of the Cosmere books for the word ambition.  You will find that Elantris is the only book which mentions it in such a manner, and also, given the size of the book Elantris, it is is more frequently mentioned per word, and more often than any other book other than Words of Radiance, which I believe uses it more but the use of the word is merely a description or used in the negative, not am implied capitalized word, and mentioned in such a manner as to leave small doubt that it is mentioned in a cosmere manner.

Given Kelsier has a relation to the Iri, it would not be a huge stretch to say it was possible.  However given that there is already a faction/being (Jaddeth of Fjordell) on Sel trying to reassemble shards there (Devotion and Ambition), he would have competition.  However, competition is no bar to Ambition, it would rather be an incentive, and Kelsier likes nothing more than a challenge and the more Ambitious the challenge the more he likes it.  Remember his first goal was killing a God (the Lord Ruler).

Key Ambition quotes from Elantris:

Quote

ambition was the one emotion Jaddeth would accept as readily as devotion

Lord Jaddeth rewards ambition, not arrogance.

It was a firm tenet of Shu-Dereth that ambition should be rewarded.

Ambition was such a cardinal Fjordell attribute.

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Hawkido
correcting my inaccurate memory

[Calderis he/him]

I'm not saying it's going to happen. I just think it's a good fit. I understand all of the things in the way.

15 minutes ago, strumienpola said:

1. Bind himself to a new body. We assume he did that. 

2. It's not said if his new body would immediately allow him to leave Scadial, just like Oversleep said, we don't actually know if the returned have troubles worldhopping. 

3. Learn about Ambition.

4. Be bothered. Not sure if he would. 

5. Find out where the splinters are, and there is possibility that no one in cosmere currently knows that. 

6. Learn how to un-splinter a shard, and for what I understand there is a in-world debate wether it is possible or not, so he would have to find a way himself (not a scholar) or out-smart someone that did (more likely, but still he'd need to find the right person) 

7. And then he could actually take up the shard. 

1. All evidence points to this being more than an assumption.

2. I'm trying and failing to find the WoB, but there's one that addresses this specifically and basically says restoring a tie to the physical realm eliminates the problem. If I can find it, I'll edit it in. 

3. Agreed

4. If it were available and he had the means to reach it, I doubt he'd hesitate just because of the amount of doors it would open.

5. Agreed. 

6. Agree tentatively. Ambition was Odium's first target. When Ambition couldn't be found he hit Devotion and Dominion. Now, he didn't properly shatter D&D, but he shoved what was left into the Cognitive Realm so that the power couldn't be picked up, effectively creating The Dor as we know it. At some point after this he caught back up with Ambition. Now as per my usual thought process, the next part is speculation, but I don't think Odium knew how to shatter a Shard yet when he hit Ambition. We know Ambition was wounded and some of its power hit Threnody. I personally think Ambition was wounded enough to be finished, got away and hid, but it was bad enough that it was like we saw with Preservation in Secret History. He took a while to die, but when he did what was left of the Shard fell in one piece. 

I want this to happen, despite the hurdles. And I agree that Kel has some amazing Villain potential. 

[Kinnsayyy]

I don't have the WoB but I'm pretty sure he has said that Kel will be a major character in the third Mistborn trilogy. Idk if this affects whether he is a shard or not, but he'll definitely be around for a while. 

Also, someone could ask Brandon if a returned can hold the powers of shard. This would be the closest thing to what Kel is now and it seems less likely to get RAFOd than if you ask if Kel could. 

Also again, about Spren traveling to different worlds, didn't we see Jasnah worldhop at the end of WoR? 

[Hawkido]

1 hour ago, strumienpola said:

3. Learn about Ambition.

4. Be bothered. Not sure if he would. 

#3.  As the Shard is shattered, and holderless I feel it would be attracted to those who crave it.  It would be more like the shard finding out about Kelsier, 

#4.  Kelsier is already Ambitious, Kelsier is aware of what shards are and as he held the Shard of Preservation, I believe there is every possibility that he is aware of the other shards and their nature.  Sazed said that he knows the history of his power (the two shards he holds), even though it predates his birth.  And Preservation had longer/further-reaching foresight than Ruin, I can see that Kelsier COULD have gained enough direction to begin plotting what to do to attain it.  Kelsier knew he could not keep Preservation, and didn't feel kinship with that power anyway.  But he wanted power, and wanted to keep it.  Ruin and Preservation were the last to settle and select a system to invest in.  They may well have been aware that Ambition was mortally wounded and lost.  The collected Shard Knowledge of Iri of which Kelsier was aware of would lead him back to them.  He was aware of the locations of the perpendicularities, and was now aware of the Iri.  Assuming I am correct in that Sel is the resting place of Ambition, then the Iri would have knowledge of it.  Also the Atium mines would be just about ready for Atium production again  It had been 340+ years by the time of the second Mistborn series.  So both of the perpendicularities should be operating for the past few decades, and Hoid was able to travel to the system post Catacendre so travel is still viable.  Plus all these other groups have managed to figure out how to travel the shard worlds and they did not hold a shard for a few days.

I see it as very likely and very like Kelsier to do so.  He wouldn't confront a shard holder as he has held that power and knows how hopeless it would be to try.  But if there was an unoccupied, even if damaged, shard he would go for it.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Hawkido

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, Kinnsayyy said:

I don't have the WoB but I'm pretty sure he has said that Kel will be a major character in the third Mistborn trilogy. Idk if this affects whether he is a shard or not, but he'll definitely be around for a while. 

Also, someone could ask Brandon if a returned can hold the powers of shard. This would be the closest thing to what Kel is now and it seems less likely to get RAFOd than if you ask if Kel could. 

Also again, about Spren traveling to different worlds, didn't we see Jasnah worldhop at the end of WoR? 

Kel already held Preservation. We have that answer

[Spoolofwhool]

34 minutes ago, Calderis said:

2. I'm trying and failing to find the WoB, but there's one that addresses this specifically and basically says restoring a tie to the physical realm eliminates the problem. If I can find it, I'll edit it in. 

It's difficult for Returned to worldhop since they are cognitive shadows. I imagine Kelsier would have the same difficulty, and I can't see having a physical body as changing anything as Returned have one, but the cognitive and spiritual are still infused with the binding investiture.

Quote

QUESTION

Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave. It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. ‘Cognitive Shadow’ is a very ambiguous term in the Cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but you are usually Invested with something, that’s tied, and you’re basically like pure Investiture then. You’re tied to the thing you’re Connected to. Most of the things that you’re gonna see like that, traveling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it. You have seen people do it.

QUESTION

Who?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Vasher.

QUESTION

Sure, sure.

BRANDON SANDERSON

You have seen people do it.

[Source]

 

3 minutes ago, Kinnsayyy said:

Also again, about Spren traveling to different worlds, didn't we see Jasnah worldhop at the end of WoR? 

She entered the Cognitive Realm and left it, but we have no evidence that she actually went to another world. Since there is a recent WoB that says she isn't Cosmere-aware, I think that's a fair confirmation that she hasn't been to, and isn't really aware of, other worlds.

[Kinnsayyy]

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Kel already held Preservation. We have that answer

But when he held it, he didn't have a physical body and wasn't able to use it all the way. Maybe now he can actually use a shard to its full power like Vin or Sazed. 

16 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

She entered the Cognitive Realm and left it, but we have no evidence that she actually went to another world. Since there is a recent WoB that says she isn't Cosmere-aware, I think that's a fair confirmation that she hasn't been to, and isn't really aware of, other worlds.

In the epilogue of WoR:

Quote

In the center of it appeared Jasnah Kholin, standing tall.

Her clothing was ragged, her hair formed into a single utilitarian braid, her face lashed with burns. She’d once worn a fine dress, but that was tattered. She’d hemmed it at the knees and had sewn herself a glove out of something improvised. Curiously, she wore a kind of leather bandolier and a backpack. He doubted she’d had either one when her journey had begun.

I've seen it speculated on here that the bandolier could have been from Scadrial (because guns). Also, just because she isn't cosmere aware doesn't mean she couldn't have traveled to another planet. Knowing about another planet and knowing about the entire cosmere isn't necessarily the same thing. Or she could have just thought the other planet was just a different part of Roshar. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Kinnsayyy

[Hawkido]

 

14 hours ago, Yata said:

Kelsier Will have multiple problems to Ascend to Ambition:

- He is a Cognitive's Shadow so a bad Vessel.

- He is tied to Scadrial and Harmony, he could overcomed this issue but still It could work aganist him in the elegibility to Vesselhood.

- Ambition is splintered and we (and maybe the Cosmere's people) don't know where his/her Power is.

- If Ambition's remains are in Open space...noone could reach them through the Cognitive and you Need to physical Travel there to operate on them

Kelsier is not longer a Cognitive Shadow, and even as a CS he has held a Shard.  

Kelsier is aware of the importance of connection, he helped pioneer the Coins/Medallions the Southern Scandrians use.  If he spiked his connection to his newly acquired "recently dead" body, he would have no problem relocating himself to another shard world.  Nin mentions to Szeth "I suspect you have already seen the newly dead restored to life.”  At which point Kelsier would no longer be an unsuitable vessel.

Kelsier was tied to Ruin not Preservation, Ruin's power did not care who used it or where it was used, WoB.  And If he spiked his connection to his body he would be free to roam.  Kelsier's soul has been expanded by holding a shard, so his soul would be more flexible/capable.

The best evidence is that Ambition (what is left of the shard) is on Sel.  The WoB from Brandon stating that one of the shard corpses was in space was not attributed to Ambition, and there are at least one other splintered shard we are not aware of (Love comes to mind).  Plus once Kelsier has Ambition his next target would be the shard threatening his home planet, which he also holds an affinity to "Autonomy".  Because if there are two words that would describe Kelsier then would be Ambitious and Autonomous.  and if he does manage to overcome Jaddeth to get Ambition, he could get another shard that also matches what he inspires in others... Devotion. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Hawkido

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Kinnsayyy said:

In the epilogue of WoR:

I've seen it speculated on here that the bandolier could have been from Scadrial (because guns). Also, just because she isn't cosmere aware doesn't mean she couldn't have traveled to another planet. Knowing about another planet and knowing about the entire cosmere isn't necessarily the same thing. Or she could have just thought the other planet was just a different part of Roshar. 

I know what you're talking about. Personally I don't think that's the case at all, as we have other WoBs that state that getting a soreness off-world would be difficult as well. Additionally, while bandolier is commonly used with regards to guns and bullets, I feel like in this case it's just referring to something more like a shoulder sling bag, passed through a translation.

[Aaronator17]

45 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Additionally, while bandolier is commonly used with regards to guns and bullets, I feel like in this case it's just referring to something more like a shoulder sling bag, passed through a translation

Keep in mind this is told from the perspective of Hoid, who we know has been on the 'wrong' side of local translations before. So it very well could be a bandolier, though maybe not one designed for ammo.

[Kinnsayyy]

I agree that the bandolier is a stretch, it's probably just wishful thinking honestly, but still. She had to have gotten the backpack and bandolier from somewhere. Hoid says she probably didn't have them when she left and I dont think she could have soul casted them in shadesmar, but I could be wrong. 

[AeonaRin she/her]

1 hour ago, Hawkido said:

The best evidence is that Ambition (what is left of the shard) is on Sel.

I would not call that evidence, but a guess. 

Quote

 The WoB from Brandon stating that one of the shard corpses was in space was not attributed to Ambition

Can you link me to that WoB?

Quote

Plus once Kelsier has Ambition his next target would be the shard threatening his home planet, which he also holds an affinity to "Autonomy".  Because if there are two words that would describe Kelsier then would be Ambitious and Autonomous.  and if he does manage to overcome Jaddeth to get Ambition, he could get another shard that also matches what he inspires in others... Devotion. 

Now these are just even wilder guesses. Especially with Devotion. And I certainly hope you're wrong because I'd personally hate Kel to be op. 

[ZenBossanova]

4 hours ago, Hawkido said:

As to where Ambition is... Just do a word search in the book Elantris for the word "Ambition".  That seems to be where Ambition is.  Mentioned in the same manner and sentence as Devotion, and connected with the devotion faction Shu-Dereth multiple times.

If you think that is a stretch, do word searches on the rest of the Cosmere books for the word ambition.  You will find that Elantris is the only book which mentions it in such a manner, and also, given the size of the book Elantris, it is is more frequently mentioned per word, and more often than any other book other than Words of Radiance, which I believe uses it more but the use of the word is merely a description or used in the negative, not am implied capitalized word, and mentioned in such a manner as to leave small doubt that it is mentioned in a cosmere manner.

Given Kelsier has a relation to the Iri, it would not be a huge stretch to say it was possible.  However given that there is already a faction/being (Jaddeth of Fjordell) on Sel trying to reassemble shards there (Devotion and Ambition), he would have competition.  However, competition is no bar to Ambition, it would rather be an incentive, and Kelsier likes nothing more than a challenge and the more Ambitious the challenge the more he likes it.  Remember his first goal was killing a God (the Lord Ruler).

Key Ambition quotes from Elantris:

 

That is really interesting! 

I organized the 16 shards (and some healthy guesses) into a grid like the Feruchemical Elements, and Autonomy was right between Dominion and Devotion. 

Dominion was an External/Pushing

Autonomy was Internal/Pushing 

Devotion was Internal/Pulling

 

edit: For some reason my brain read Autonomy and said Ambition. Unfortunately, Ambition is not in any of the same quadrants as D&D. But it is still an intriguing idea, that that is where Autonomy died. Maybe the shardpool was Ambitions? If it had been D&D's, wouldn't they have access to the Physical Realm? If they don't have access, it must be a different shard's pool, right? 

Edited April 1, 2017 by ZenBossanova

[Yata he/him]

5 hours ago, Hawkido said:

Kelsier is not longer a Cognitive Shadow, and even as a CS he has held a Shard.  

Ehm no man, once CS you are a CS. It's meaningless if you manage to stampe yourself in the physical (like Kel DID) you are still a Cognitive Shadow (notice that others example of CS are the Heralds and the Returneds) and Yes Kel manage to get a Shard using the Ire's orb but as you could see the Shard Simply resistenza him to be used also if he was Connected enough....Ruin himself explains to Kelsier that a Shadow is a poor Vessel for a Shard.

5 hours ago, Hawkido said:

Kelsier was tied to Ruin not Preservation, Ruin's power did not care who used it or where it was used, WoB.  And If he spiked his connection to his body he would be free to roam.  Kelsier's soul has been expanded by holding a shard, so his soul would be more flexible/capable.

Kelsier was naturally tied to Ruin and a bit of Preservation....Then He Ascend to Preservation itself and He is now a Silver of Preservation. This could work aganist him in ascending into another Shard...I don't know.

 

5 hours ago, Hawkido said:

Kelsier is aware of the importance of connection, he helped pioneer the Coins/Medallions the Southern Scandrians use.  If he spiked his connection to his newly acquired "recently dead" body, he would have no problem relocating himself to another shard world.  Nin mentions to Szeth "I suspect you have already seen the newly dead restored to life.”  At which point Kelsier would no longer be an unsuitable vessel.

Again Kelsier and Szeth are two different phenomens. Szeth has never really die (for the Cosmere's Deep meaning) He was restored Before his ties to the physical were cutted, he was not a Cognitive Shadow.

Kelsier instead was Dead for good and he exploited the Well to performe some kind of "sliverification". The Well's Investiture replace his own...In the end he (like all' the others Shadows) is some kind of "spren".

5 hours ago, Hawkido said:

The best evidence is that Ambition (what is left of the shard) is on Sel.  The WoB from Brandon stating that one of the shard corpses was in space was not attributed to Ambition, and there are at least one other splintered shard we are not aware of (Love comes to mind).  Plus once Kelsier has Ambition his next target would be the shard threatening his home planet, which he also holds an affinity to "Autonomy".  Because if there are two words that would describe Kelsier then would be Ambitious and Autonomous.  and if he does manage to overcome Jaddeth to get Ambition, he could get another shard that also matches what he inspires in others... Devotion. 

I Lost you there...Why Ambition have to be in Sel? I see no evidence or clue about.

On Sel we have the corpse or Devotiome and Dominion. They were killed Before Ambition was. Their broken Powers became the Dor and no one (Brandon, Khriss,ecc...) Never mention Ambition in the Sel's context.

Notice that whatever Ambition actually died. That Place Will be full of Ambition's power

[Hawkido]

3 hours ago, Yata said:

Again Kelsier and Szeth are two different phenomens. Szeth has never really die (for the Cosmere's Deep meaning) He was restored Before his ties to the physical were cutted, he was not a Cognitive Shadow.

Kelsier got a body... kelsier left the planet. other returned have left their planet. Nin Says to Szeth there are honor blades surely you have seen the recently dead brought back to life.  Kelsier spiking himself (Using a connection spike) into a body kept it in the Recently dead state.  Much like What happened on Elantris when the Elantrians were stuck halfway transformed due to the Reod.  All he had to do was find his way either to a returned and have then sacrifice them self to heal him, have an Elantrian heal him, or have an honor blade of regrowth heal him, or have Sazed himself heal him.  Lots of ways for a recently dead body with a CS "Connected" to it to be healed.

3 hours ago, Yata said:

Again Kelsier and Szeth are two different phenomens. Szeth has never really die (for the Cosmere's Deep meaning) He was restored Before his ties to the physical were cutted, he was not a Cognitive Shadow.

He was enough dead that a CS said the ties to his oath stone were satisfied.  And the Bond to the Honor Blade also considered him dead.  That is Dead enough. for the Cosmere.  Much longer and his Soul would not have lingered any longer and Szeth's soul would have moved to the Beyond, that is when it is loo late to resurrect someone... Kelsier doesn't have that problem... actually he cannot move on, at least not until he has a body and dies once again, maybe.

Quote

“I waited until you crashed to the ground,” the man said, “until you were broken and mangled, your soul cut through, dead for certain. Then, I restored you.”

“Impossible.”

“Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right Surgebinding. If I had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late. But surely you know this. Two of the Blades held by your people allow Regrowth. I suspect you have already seen the newly dead restored to life.”

 

“I have destroyed myself,” Szeth whispered.

“You did, and you died. Your bond to your Blade severed, all ties—both spiritual and physical—undone. You are reborn."

See Dead, both spiritually and physically... Nin does not lie, and has more than enough knowledge to know what he is talking about.

3 hours ago, Yata said:

I Lost you there...Why Ambition have to be in Sel? I see no evidence or clue about.

On Sel we have the corpse or Devotiome and Dominion. They were killed Before Ambition was. Their broken Powers became the Dor and no one (Brandon, Khriss,ecc...) Never mention Ambition in the Sel's context.

These 4 quotes below from Elantris.  

Quote

ambition was the one emotion Jaddeth would accept as readily as devotion

Lord Jaddeth rewards ambition, not arrogance.

It was a firm tenet of Shu-Dereth that ambition should be rewarded.

Ambition was such a cardinal Fjordell attribute.

The Top line equates Devotion with Ambition.  As we know Devotion is a shattered shard on that planet and this line Equates Devotion to Ambition, and connects it to Shu-Dereth, Actually Ambition is connected to Shu-Dereth in words more often than Devotion and Shu-Dereth is the religion of Devotion.  Ambition hasn't been neutered and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm.  And as it was a slow bleed-out it might not even be as fully fragmented as Honor is.  You see how long the identity of Honor has persisted on Roshar, tens of thousands of years.

3 hours ago, Yata said:

Notice that whatever Ambition actually died. That Place Will be full of Ambition's power

That Last line above I quoted from Elantris seems to indicate that Fjordell is the place that is full of Ambitions power.  Perhaps Ambition's Shard holder did not die, or is himself a Cognitive Shadow named Jaddeth.  And he/she is trying to restore the shard with Spare parts from Devotion.  I don't see enough people asking who Jaddeth is.  Jaddeth has been alive for along time.  Only the most ambitious can be Wyrn and Those in the Derethi Inner circle with bones twisted in a manner never before seen, live much longer.  I believe that Jaddeth is actually body hopping Wyrn to Wyrn as they wear out to preserve himself until he can repair the shard.  And he can hang around forever since he skipped the moving-on-to-the-beyond for the same reason Kelsier did.  Ambition.  

Jaddeth is training his priests (oddly only those from Fjordell can become a priest) to tap into the Dor, but in a corrupted manner never before seen, and not mentioned in any of the books on the Dor that Raoden was studying.  Remember Elantris was full of immortal scholars and only fell a decade or so ago, Raoden was alive when it fell, the twisted bones of the Derethi Priests were not known about by anyone outside the Fjordell priesthood.  An Elantrian would have found out, unless the quake that broke the Dor was also what released Jaddeth to this extent, or vice versa.  Fjordell was kind of a mess until only recently.

Below is the Wyrn's letter oddly written as if he were Jaddeth, not, I believe, because he was scribing it, but because Jaddeth was using him as a vessel for his CS.  Note the line that I bolded below.  I admit, Jaddeth might not be the original shard holder, but whatever he is he is not biologically human anymore, if Jaddeth was ever human.  I have also theorized that he/it might be a dragon, perhaps still in it's egg unhatched as It is mentioned that Jaddeth is encased in stone and seeks to be free of it.

Quote

Hrathen thoughts on Jaddeth and his pyramid scheme:

One served those above him, who served those above him, and so on until it reached Wyrn, who served Jaddeth. Everyone served Jaddeth’s empire, but only one man was holy enough to serve God Himself.

Jaddeth's letter to Hrathen

Behold the words of Jaddeth, through His servant Wyrn Wulfden the Fourth, Emperor and King.

High Priest and Son, your request has been granted. Go to the heathen peoples of the West and declare to them my final warning, for while my Empire is eternal, my patience will soon end. Not much longer will I slumber within a tomb of rock. The Day of Empire is at hand, and my glory will soon shine forth, a second sun blazing forth from Fjorden.

The pagan nations of Arelon and Teod have been blackened scars upon my land for long enough. Three hundred years have my priests served amongst those call. Know this, High Priest: My faithful warriors are prepared and they wait only the word of my Wyrn. You have three months to prophesy to the people of Arelon. At the end of that time, the holy soldiers of Fjorden will descend on the nation like hunting predators, rending and tearing the unworthy life from those who heed not my words. Only three months will pass before the destruction of all who oppose my Empire.

The time for my ascension nears, my son. Be stalwart, and be diligent.

Words of Jaddeth, Lord of all Creation, through his servant Wyrn Wulfden the Fourth, Emperor of Fjorden, Prophet of Shu-Dereth, Ruler of Jaddeth’s Holy Kingdom, and Regent of all Creation.

None of the other books mention Ambition is such a manner as to equate it as a form of worship or offering.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Hawkido

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Hawkido said:

Kelsier got a body... kelsier left the planet. other returned have left their planet. Nin Says to Szeth there are honor blades surely you have seen the recently dead brought back to life.  Kelsier spiking himself (Using a connection spike) into a body kept it in the Recently dead state.  Much like What happened on Elantris when the Elantrians were stuck halfway transformed due to the Reod.  All he had to do was find his way either to a returned and have then sacrifice them self to heal him, have an Elantrian heal him, or have an honor blade of regrowth heal him, or have Sazed himself heal him.  Lots of ways for a recently dead body with a CS "Connected" to it to be healed.

In the Cosmere there are two steps of death. The first is the physical death, the body dies and the Aspects start to separate, the Bonds are probably released "now". After an X amount of time the Mind+Soul are completelly severed by the Body. Before this happen using Healing on the subject could "resurrect him" and we are all ok...we see this I think 3-4 times in the books and Szeth is one of this cases.

After this X amount of time (that depend by the level of Subject's Investiture) the physical is totally severed by the rest and no Healing could help, the Mind+Soul will reaches the Beyond unless for some reason the subject manage to become a Cognitive Shadow, this condition happen when your Souls is permeate to a lot of Investiture and the Investiture itself replace your own and you become essentially a Spren of yourself. This automatically happen with Slivers but could be triggered with other methods (like Kelsier did).

NOW a Cognitive Shadow is a two Realms being but could be attached to a body with some methods...this don't change the fact you are still a Cognitive Shadow with or without a body. Like I said Returneds and Heralds are Cognitive Shadows, and you could see how they have both a physical body.

For the Cognitive Shadow and Spren leave their planets is hard but not impossible, they are tied to the world by the Investiture now composes their being....Is it possible for a CS to worldhop ? Yes we know and saw Returned does it. But it's not easy and this don't mean they are no more Cognitive Shadows.

And again the Elantrian are all another matter, they never died and they were never resurrected. Their body is simply struck in the middle of a trasformation (the Reod one of course).

1 hour ago, Hawkido said:

He was enough dead that a CS said the ties to his oath stone were satisfied.  And the Bond to the Honor Blade also considered him dead.  That is Dead enough. for the Cosmere.  Much longer and his Soul would not have lingered any longer and Szeth's soul would have moved to the Beyond, that is when it is loo late to resurrect someone... Kelsier doesn't have that problem... actually he cannot move on, at least not until he has a body and dies once again, maybe.

See Dead, both spiritually and physically... Nin does not lie, and has more than enough knowledge to know what he is talking about.

I already explained before but just to clarify. Bonds are probably realeased into the physical death not the higher one. Nale itself mentions how Szeth's mind was still in the timeframe of recover (He cites the "brain was still working" or something like that). Nale has no reason (or maybe pratical knowledge) to explain the whole death process to Szeth.

You could notice also how on WoR's ending Sadeas's blade appear some moments later his death. While we know there are some time between the physical death and the beyond. On this last note, but it's really meaningless. Szeth severed the bond with the Blade of his own will before die once he realize to be Truthless unfairly.

@HawkidoI will avoid to cite all the part about Ambition on Sel but we know on Sel there are two Shards Devotion and DOMINION (you simple ignored him from my post) and all the reference to the Dor is about D&D's power. You could not ignore the whole Brandon,Khriss and pratical evidence on the matter.

IF Ambition was there, is broken power would be so huge to expands everywhere like D&D's one.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Yata

[Calderis he/him]

@Hawkido one point to dispute on your Dahkor is of Ambition idea. You talk about the Secret Dahkor practices as though they emerged at the same time as the chasm broke the Aons. Hrathen went to the Dahkor monastery long before the Chasm, and they were already doing their thing then. He remembers himself as a frightened young man in the monastery of demons. The length of his career, and his status as Gyorn make it completely implausible to me that Dahkor, secret as it is, is a recent development.

 

[Yata he/him]

31 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Hawkido one point to dispute on your Dahkor is of Ambition idea. You talk about the Secret Dahkor practices as though they emerged at the same time as the chasm broke the Aons. Hrathen went to the Dahkor monastery long before the Chasm, and they were already doing their thing then. He remembers himself as a frightened young man in the monastery of demons. The length of his career, and his status as Gyorn make it completely implausible to me that Dahkor, secret as it is, is a recent development.

 

Dilaf too is far older than Hrathen, He used the Dahkor's magic to change his look and infiltrate in Elantris years before the City's fall.

Also I want to exploit this reply to add some informations:

Quote

VIPER

Wyrn can see into the future ... is he a follower of Dominion or of Odium? Cause Dominion is shattered, so ...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Dominion

Quote

QUESTION

Does the expansion of Jaddeth’s empire have more to do with greed and hunger for power, or the innate nature of Dominion?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Both. The innate nature of Dominion probably c0aused the greed and hunger for power.

QUESTION

What would you say percentage-wise?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, one caused the other. It definitely started with Dominion. The Skaze are pretty thirsty for power

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by Yata

[Calderis he/him]

31 minutes ago, Yata said:

Dilaf too is far older than Hrathen, He used the Dahkor's magic to change his look and infiltrate in Elantris years before the City's fall.

I forgot that Dilaf had been there that long. Very good point.

[AeonaRin she/her]

Hawkido, I wanted to analyze your logical and rethorical errors, but you're making too many. So forgive me for not elaborating, but I'll just post a list of formal and informal fallacies you're guilty of.

Appeal to probability, conjunction fallacy, fallacy of the converse, existential fallacy, fallacy of exclusive premises, fallacy of undistributed middle, argumentum ad ignorantiam, argumentum from silence, circular reasoning, confusing correlation with causation, casual oversimplification, moving the goalposts, post hoc fallacy, proof by assertion, referential fallacy, cherry picking, and above all, the slippery slope.

Sorry, but you're jumping to conclusions with FTL speed. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by strumienpola

[Calderis he/him]

Back to the topic of Kel leaving Scadrial. I understand that a Cognitive Shadow is bound to the world in which it's investiture is based. It why Kel feels the pull when approaching the Ire fortress. Kel has a body now so I would figure that that investiture would be more tied to the physical form containing it, then to it's original source, and so a Shadow with a body should be able to overcome that pull without a problem.

We know Vasher & Co. Worldhopped Pre-Warbreaker. And again Vasher is off Nalthis. So returned have no issues we've been shown in leaving their world. Doesn't mean there aren't any, just none we've seen.

The only other Shadows we've seen with bodies that I'm aware of are the Heralds, and their trips to Braize imply that they are not bound to Roshar itself but to the Greater Roshar system. So despite having a body I believe they are still bound to the system by the Oathpact in the same means as Odium.

I am aware that I could very easily be wrong here, but what am I missing? The pull on a Cognitive Shadow should function very much like gravity, with the force pulling on the investiture in the Cognitive Realm. Once that investiture is tied to a physical form it should be able to overcome that pull the same way we are held to the planet, rather than being pulled towards the larger mass of the sun. 

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I am aware that I could very easily be wrong here, but what am I missing? The pull on a Cognitive Shadow should function very much like gravity, with the force pulling on the investiture in the Cognitive Realm. Once that investiture is tied to a physical form it should be able to overcome that pull the same way we are held to the planet, rather than being pulled towards the larger mass of the sun. 

Possibly, except that it's implied, or more directly stated I think, that the Returned still have their restriction and needed some method to get around it. Since they have physical bodies, that is doubtful to be complete method of getting around that restriction, but possibly still part of it.

[Thanatos]

Brandon said its just very very hard for a CS to leave there magic system. Not impossible just extremely difficult. 

Quote

FirstSelector: So if I’m a Surgebinder and I have my own Cognitive entity with me, can I go off-world with that and [have] everything continue to work in exactly the same way? Because we’ve seen Cognitive entities that--

Brandon: So...taking a Cognitive entity off-world is hard. So, Surgebinding, if you can find out how to make it happen, remember, the Investiture is keyed to Connection. This is why Kelsier is--Oh, sorry, spoilers! When a certain somebody [laughter] getting off Scadrial, because he basically was a spren by that point so…[laughter] So, yeah Surgebinding would work off planet, but you’d have to get the spren off first. It’s hard to do. Well, Cosmere-wide it’s not hard hard...You could learn how.

Regarding Kel gaining a body. I think his Connection to the PR is due to an inquisitors spike that Kel has put his Identity in. Then inserted into the eye of a body. (Still think its a Spook/Kel hybrid, or Spook spiked another body)

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

Brandon said its just very very hard for a CS to leave there magic system. Not impossible just extremely difficult. 

Regarding Kel gaining a body. I think his Connection to the PR is due to an inquisitors spike that Kel has put his Identity in. Then inserted into the eye of a body. (Still think its a Spook/Kel hybrid, or Spook spiked another body)

The Identity doesn't work in that way. It's not Memories/personality/ecc of someone.

Identity It's Just someone "serial code" and dictates how much the Investiture's Interference works between Investitures.

(If you read BoM there is a Nice explaination about)

Edited April 2, 2017 by Yata