Kaladin vs. Adolin

[Voidus]

I'm rooting for Kal and Jasnah, their cynicism would complement each other nicely
Also I think Adolin is probably just going to be given the Honorblade by Kal, not turn into a Windrunner, would be a nice way to patch things up, mirrors Adolin trying to give Kal Shards and Adolin is the obvious choice as one of the best swordsmen in the army.

[marianmi]

* Adolin and Shallan are a great pair, Shallan needs someone who is not broken and who can smile all the time. 

* I hope Adolin will not "break" after Sadeas's murder. But if he does, and becomes a radiant, he will definitely be a skybreaker - as the WoR quote said, they take justice into their own hands, like he did; Just/Confident - Adolin is very confident, taking on 4 shardbearers, taking on Szeth, taking on Eshonai etc...

* If Shallan and Kal do become a thing (pls don't!), finding out he killed Heralan would definetely push Shallan towards the Ghostbloods... or worse

* Kaladin might stay away from her because: 1) he knows he killed her brother; 2) looks to me Kal and Adolin are now best buds...

[Ness]

After reading reactions to WoR, I feel like I might be the only one who is hoping for Shallan and Kaladin...

[junior]

The early insult exchanges between Kaladin and Shallan have a very Benedick and Beatrice ("Much Ado About Nothing") vibe to them, imo.  Having said that, I hope that we don't have a love triangle.  I don't mind them getting together, but only if Shallan and Adolin have an amicable break first.  And given that we've got 8 more books to go, there's plenty of time for that.

 

 

Also I think Adolin is probably just going to be given the Honorblade by Kal

 

It's possible.  But Adolin already has a blade.  Yes, his is "merely" a dead spren.  But it doesn't scream to him (yet).  I see Dalinar as a much more likely recipient for the blade as he can't use any existing shardblades, and he's not going to be getting a new (living) one.

[Natans he/him]

Well Adolin are set to fall for the Dark side.  He are unsure of himself and at the side so many greater people then him (Radiants) If Shallan fall to Kal he will take blow in this pride and feel betrayed turning to the dark side in a Vader act.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Natans

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I agree that Adolin would most readily be given to becoming a Skybreaker, I just worry like Natan that he's set up for a fall!

[Mr Horrible]

He is violent, and abusive, and after that day a murderer as well, but to maintain his Spren, I think Kaladin would not have been allowed to murder Father like that. Oppose, arrest, detain, but not kill. So again, not all Spren are as discerning.

 

I thought a big part of what split Syl from Kaladin was also the fact that he made two conflicting promises and that's what lead to him needing the third ideal in order to get his bond back. Also I feel like killing Shallan's father there would fall under the umbrella of 'kill to protect' given his history. Speaking of which there still seems to be some issues there on Kaladin's part, I wouldn't be surprised if a future ideal is something about who is suitable to be killed by wind runners.

 

After reading reactions to WoR, I feel like I might be the only one who is hoping for Shallan and Kaladin...

Fear not friend, I am here too .

[Seloun]

It seems like the requirements for the different orders to be 'in grace' are pretty idiosyncratic. Regarding what happened with Shallan's father, it seems unlikely Syl would have found that to be an acceptable solution; she seems to generally be against anything that feels 'underhanded', especially because there's actually a reasonable resolution to that situation: she could have (potentially) gotten between her father and her brother with her shardblade and given her father a chance to back off (a la Moash, Kaladin and Elhokar), only killing if her father presses the issue - yes that'd require some serious moxie, but that's exactly what you could imagine Kaladin in that situation would do. Further, revenge, even in the name of justice (killing her father for being a murderer) is clearly not a sufficient reason (e.g. Amaram).

 

On topic of Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin - it seems pretty clear that (for now) Kaladin and Shallan are the favored pairing; every single encounter between them helps reinforce that (especially the pre-chasm and the chasm scene). I'd argue actually that it was actually _immediately_ obvious after the little insult exchange when they first meet in the warcamps (it screams tsundere - from both of them) that that's where that was going. Kaladin is always Serious Business and Shallan is Avoids Conflict, and yet they deal with each in a completely non-standard way in that scene.

 

Adolin on the other hand doesn't seem to have a chance; Shallan is always putting on an act with Adolin, and she has no problem whatsoever with lying to him consciously (which is to say, she treats him like how she treats pretty much everyone else). We see this in the scene where Kaladin, Adolin and Shallan are visiting the menagerie, and we see this when she lies to Adolin (multiple occasions) about what she's doing or was doing. Her interaction with Kaladin is far more truthful (at least in part because he's good at catching her lying) and in the chasm scene, practically soul-revealing. Her internal description of Kaladin is far more flattering than her description of Adolin.

 

I don't really think her brother is going to be that big of an issue - or rather, I think it's supportive of their relationship happening; in fact, I'm pretty sure it was specifically avoided in this book to try and set up an issue to make their relationship that much more interesting. Kaladin could have easily been -way- more specific in his challenge to Amaram after the 4 shardbearer scene (his choice of wording seems _very_ careful and general), and he has a specific excuse as to why he didn't mention it to Shallan in the chasm - since otherwise there'd be very little to provide a conflict to generate a spark between them. There's also the conflict between Cryptics and Honorspren, but again, this is the sort of conflict that I'd say makes their relationship more likely rather than less (a la Romeo and Juliet). Pattern and Syl nagging their respective partners not to interact so much with each other = drama goldmine without Serious Implications.

 

In fact, I'd say that it's almost _so_ obvious that one has to wonder if it isn't intentionally misleading. Given what happens in WoR, it would be more of a subversion/more interesting if Kaladin and Shallan didn't end up in a relationship.

 

All that said I think Kaladin/Shallan is the obvious relationship, but also that they really do go well together (even if it's troperiffic), if only because they have very similar capabilities but completely different methods; they complement each other very nicely.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Seloun

[ssd6 he/him]

@Seloun

 

I wish I put the whole Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin situation as eloquently as you did . I don't think he's going to end up with them not together, seeing how they interact with one another and how well they complemented one another, it'd be almost a crime not to see the story go in that direction. 

 

I am curious what you think of Sanderson having a love triangle and an obvious one (a lot of people predicated this from the last book)? Also, how you expect Kaladin to take things, will he accept them or pine/hate their relationship? 

[lordofsoup]

The Kaladin, Adolin, Shallan thing sort of reminds me of the Honor, Cultivation, Odium relationship.  Honor and Cultivation where lovers and someone mentioned that Rayse/Odium was jealous of the fact.  

[Rust and Ruin]

I am curious what you think of Sanderson having a love triangle and an obvious one (a lot of people predicated this from the last book)? Also, how you expect Kaladin to take things, will he accept them or pine/hate their relationship? 

 

I'm actually curious to see where this love triangle will go - Sanderon precedent usually has clear-cut love interests who do eventually fall in love with each other (and end up sacrificing a lot to save the other). I don't recall a particular scenario where it could go either way.

 

The thing is, Adolin already knows that Kaladin and Shallan are some of the most important people in the world at the moment and already feels like he isn't doing enough. I feel like this could end up in petty jealousy on his part, which may lead Shallan to Kaladin (who has no idea what to do with women so that's more drama on its own).

[Aniki he/him]

After reading reactions to WoR, I feel like I might be the only one who is hoping for Shallan and Kaladin...

[shinintendo]

I think Kaladin/Shallan is going to happen eventually.

Adolin will feel guilty after the murder and alienate everyone around him.

Shallan than will befriend Kaladin some more and Adolin jealousy will spike, after all both are KR - so far above his station.

And what with their secret meetings (but in truth Shallan will research the WindRunners powers and oaths).

add to that that both Renarin and Dalinar are KR now he will do anything to be part of their little group.

so I believe:

1) He will ask Kaladin for the honorblade, kaladin will refuse saying it's too dangerous, than he will find other way to become a KR, "evil" ways.

or 2) Kaladin will actually give him the honorblade (after Dalinar agree that Adolin deserve it) and the honorblade corrupts him somehow(powers without the spren bond is a dangerous thing)

Edited March 6, 2014 by shinintendo

[Seloun]

@Seloun

 

I wish I put the whole Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin situation as eloquently as you did . I don't think he's going to end up with them not together, seeing how they interact with one another and how well they complemented one another, it'd be almost a crime not to see the story go in that direction. 

 

I am curious what you think of Sanderson having a love triangle and an obvious one (a lot of people predicated this from the last book)? Also, how you expect Kaladin to take things, will he accept them or pine/hate their relationship? 

 

Well, it almost feels so obvious that it almost feels more obvious for it -not- to happen. That said, it's set up so well to follow the classic pattern: Kaladin and Shallan has almost no internal conflicts with each other but they have plenty of external barriers: her brother, Honorspren vs. Cryptics, causal with Adolin, Kaladin's travelling to (almost certainly) meet Laral and the mysterious Tarah, Gaz!, etc. They're all serious-but-not-too-serious issues that don't rely on either person having to fundamentally change, making for Drama but with clear resolutions.

 

I don't know that I'd even call this a love triangle, really - I saw nothing that leads me to believe that Shallan actually has any real feelings for Adolin. It's almost completely one-sided. She lies to him about pretty much everything she's doing, and confides in him about pretty much nothing that doesn't further her goals. She helps him out and is nice to him, but that's the case for basically every single person she interacts with (except, notably, Kaladin, who she's perfectly comfortable openly abusing from the very beginning). I don't think she's completely conscious of this, and she certainly finds Adolin physically attractive, but as we see in the book, she's really, really good at ignoring inconvenient truths about herself - in this case, that she's really (mostly) just using Adolin to get what she wants/needs. Her internal monologue about Adolin is primarily about how to manipulate him (her first thought when Adolin gives her the hug after the chasm scene is how it prevents her from delivering a really witty comment). It's really how she interacts with everyone (again, except Kaladin); it's just that her manipulations often leave the other person in a better position.

 

Re-reading that paragraph, it's somewhat amusing how terrible it makes Shallan sound. In a way I think it's perfectly factual without being true, which I suppose is an aptly ironic description of her.

 

It's (obviously!) hard to say for sure how Kaladin is going to proceed, but I have to imagine he'll be dealing rather significantly with his past life in the next book; his trip back home obviously is a set up for that. I also suspect Kaladin and Shallan will have little interaction with each other in the next book, except perhaps near the end, and Kaladin's going to spend a lot of his time comparing his old female friends/associates with Shallan (unintentionally, of course). We don't know much about Tarah, but it's hard to imagine Laral comparing well. I'm sure his mother will remind him of Shallan as well.

 

So a general prediction - Shallan learns about Kaladin's killing Helaran after he leaves, nurses a grudge for the majority of the book (likely helped by Ghostbloods and/or Pattern), maybe some communication confusion over spanreed or something (there must always be communication confusion), funny/sad anecdote from Jasnah about relationships, they meet up near the end with a resolution to this plot point, Shallan speaks a truth for the power-up (the last point might be too corny). Shallan meanwhile doesn't have any more Deep Dark Secrets involving Kaladin (well, that we know of), so he instead spends most of the book comparing every woman he meets with Shallan (heck, probably some men too - in WoR he compares her to Tien, basically top-tier for Kaladin), finds them wanting, maybe bewildered by communication confusion, resolved near the end. At least, that would be formula. Either that, or they find out their mother's are siblings or something (cut the red string).

 

Personally I think I favor this pairing more than the alternatives based on what we've read so far (I'll mention I wasn't really convinced of this pairing in WoK - at least until I read about the Helaran theory); there's so much groundwork done on it at this point that not having a payoff feels a bit cheap. That said, it's probably possible to preserve much of the drama without them being involved in a romantic relationship, just BFFs.

[Natans he/him]

After reading reactions to WoR, I feel like I might be the only one who is hoping for Shallan and Kaladin...

 

I'm with you =) 

 

They could turn out as best buddies but thet fit in a way that point to them being a couple or at least that they will have a "hot moment" down in the road.

 

They share to much. They both understand which other. Kal wouldn't try supress Shalkan freedom, and Shallan give Kal hope like Tien did (when a person are down have someone to give you hope are something powerful) Shallan humor mirror Kal mothers, and Kal grump way and smart mind give Shallan plenty of sport =) 

 

In true this was a curve ball to me I would never guess a Shallan/Kal couple, but after the clasm I kind get touched.

 

Shallan will be be the downfall of Adolin. He can't win Kal and and he pretty much lived his live always being in the top, now he are a underdog, this will be  harg blow. If he loose the only person that he really liked things will go down fast.

 

I see a Moash 2.0 in the next books.

[Too Much Awesomeness]

I'm not even sure it's a love triangle we're going to get.  With Kaladin going back home it seems likely he will interact with at least one of the women from his past.  I think Tarah is most likely, since he's thought about the girl like 4 times now and seems to regret how they ended things.  I wouldn't be surprised if he starts a relationship with her again (to get over Shallan?).    

 

So I think we might actually get a love...square?  That doesn't sound right.  What other shapes have 4 sides?  Rectangle?  Parallelogram?  Rhombus?

 

We are going to get the dreaded love rhombus, I'm calling it now.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Too Much Awesomeness

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I see a Moash 2.0 in the next books.

 

I see a conflicted and confused Moash helping the Diagram in the next books and then turning on them at some point to help the heroes...

 

He might even be Skybreaker material in his singleminded devotion to delivering "justice". Maybe not. I seem to be seeing Skybreakers all over the place right now. (Moash, Adolin...)

[marianmi]

* Yeah, Shallan understands Kaladin as much as she understands Renarin. Or any other radiant. No, she should marry Adolin. There are enough things there w/o a triangle.

 

* Moash is going to be instrumental in uniting Mr. T and Dalinar.

[junior]

I'm wondering whether Adolin is going to get found out for the murder of Sadeas.

 

1.)  It's possible that a witness arrived after Sadeas was dead, but before Adolin finished leaving the scene.  Ialai would no doubt love to have blackmail material of that nature.

2.)  Adolin threw Sadeas's shardblade to one of the lower terraces.  That means that it's just sitting out there waiting for someone to find it.  And if someone finds the blade, then it's going to be obvious that the person responsible for killing Sadeas is a shardblade user (someone who wasn't would have bonded the blade instead).

3.)  At the very least, Dalinar and his followers are going to be high on the list of suspects.

[dyring]

Why is it obvious that it is a shardblade user? You can bond several blades. But it requires you to carry the blade for five days without dismissing it, and its one of the most famous blades. Everyone would recognize it.

[Chrono she/her]

 

We are going to get the dreaded love rhombus, I'm calling it now.

 

Considering how much of an apparent chick magnet Adolin and Kaladin both are, I'd say this is gonna devolve into a Love Dodecahedron.

[Natans he/him]

Considering how much of an apparent chick magnet Adolin and Kaladin both are, I'd say this is gonna devolve into a Love Dodecahedron.

 Chick magnet these two ? Pfttt... Wait and see The Lopen =)

 

Love triangle are a thing, becasue this ship already sailed now what we dois wait for the storm =)

 

Adolin will suffer because his position and his importance will put in check, and likely he will have a little jealous of Kal for his powers.

Kaladin will suffer because he will desire his friend girl and with his inner conflict about have killed her brother.

Shallan wil suffer because she like Kal and Adolin and he also she will have a serious conflict because he Kal her brother.

 

Also Sky and Puppyspren will not be best friend what drive they Radiants apart.

 

And all Princesses of the wolrd will suffer because Lopen are too much to them, after all he shine and fly =)

Edited March 7, 2014 by Natans

[Sand Master]

Adolin will feel guilty after the murder and alienate everyone around him.

I doubt it. If someone betrayed me and my father, not only trying to kill us but also trying to kill thousands of innocent soldiers under our command, I would certainly feel no guilt in returning the favor. Sadeas deserved to die, and while I was surprised when it finally happened, I certainly wasn't disappointed by it. I don't see Adolin feeling any different about it, and I honestly can't say that I think anyone but Ialai would have any problem with him doing it.

 

If I might paraphrase another great book series, anyone who attempts to take someone's right to live their life away from them automatically forfeits their own right to life.

 

I don't even know that I'd say that Syl would have disapproved, except that even Syl sometimes doesn't seem to know what determines how she feels about things (i.e., when Kaladin asks if killing the Parshendi wasn't wrong).

[natc]

In Syl's case I feel she might find killing Sadeas an overly drastic solution. You protect even those you hate unless you have good reason to do otherwiise, and stripping him of his position/putting him in jail/etc. would've worked. He wasn't doing anything at the moment of the murder that really needed death to stop, unlike on the battlefield where it becomes kill or be killed and you have no real option.

From the dustbringer perspective of Nightblood-esque DESTROY EVIL!!! though it was totally necessary.

[Guest]

In Syl's case I feel she might find killing Sadeas an overly drastic solution. You protect even those you hate unless you have good reason to do otherwiise, and stripping him of his position/putting him in jail/etc. would've worked. He wasn't doing anything at the moment of the murder that really needed death to stop, unlike on the battlefield where it becomes kill or be killed and you have no real option.

From the dustbringer perspective of Nightblood-esque DESTROY EVIL!!! though it was totally necessary.

 

How was he suppose to achieve that? The Kohlins had no legal ways to deal with Sadeas... They were desperate enough to try to gamble everything on a duel to get the eel into the arena to fight their champion... So again, how else was Adolin supposed to deal with the real threat posed by Sadeas? He could not strip him of rank, nobody could. He could not imprisoned him, nobody could, especially since he was a full shardbearer. What other options did he have but to let him walk away knowing full well people would die because of it?

 

Morally, he had the right to do as he did. Legally, he didn't. Had he let Sadeas go, the future deaths would be on his hands, but dealing with him now meant going against every rule ever set on himself.