Jofwu Posted February 20, 2017 Report Share Posted February 20, 2017 Can we talk about the Voidbinding chart now that Brandon has confirmed that theory? Seems like there's been a push lately that it's related to fabrials and all kinds of other stuff. Now that we have some direction, seems like a good time to take a step back and reevaluate in light of this news. I'm including the chart below (with the Shadesmar map, since they go together). Also going to list some of the key observations that I can remember. Then I've got a theory of my own to add. Chart: Observations: Note: I'm going to refer to everything on the chart as a "void-" version of whatever analogue is on the Knights Radiant chart. 1. The void-surge symbols are rotationally symmetrical versions of the normal surge symbols. 2. Many of the void-order symbols resemble the normal KR order symbols. 3. The void-Truthwatcher symbol is also horizontally and vertically symmetrical. It is also incredibly similar to the glyph that shows up on maps of Roshar (around compass roses, behind the R's of 'Roshar', and around the borders - see "Glyphs" link in my signature) 4. The void-Dustbringer symbol shows up in the corners of the artistic view of Kharbranth. 5. Lines connect all of the void-orders and void-surges just like they do on the KR chart, except (strangely) for the two in the center, which aren't connected to a void-surge. Just an artistic thing, or something more? 6. The two in the center are also set on an octagon (rather than a circle) and are shown above a red gem (rather than the clouds to the sides). This sets them apart from the other eight even further. 7. Do the circles around symbols bring Shadesmar-beads to mind? Or Gavilar's dark sphere? The void-orders also have a slightly pink/purple glow. 8. Background imagery: (storm?) clouds, lightning bolts (both yellow and blue/purple, an (infused?) red gemstone. 9. Border: Flames, especially in the corner? Woman with safehand covered implies she is Vorin. Perhaps this helps to date the image? (after the advent of safehand covering) Alternatively, it could be dated to some point in the future, beyond what we have read so far. 10. Shadesmar map: This is clearly meant to accompany the map of Shadesmar, implied by the visual similarity and the fact that the border around the two is rotationally symmetrical. The somewhat detailed information on Shadesmar implies the person who created this voidbinding chart had a greater understanding of Shadesmar than most people in Roshar currently do. This excerpt from the TWoK Ars Arcanum is also worth mentioning perhaps: Spoiler The preceding list is an imperfect gathering of traditional Vorin symbolism associated with the Ten Essences. Bound together, these form the Double Eye of the Almighty, an eye with two pupils representing the creation of plants and creatures. This is also the basis for the hourglass shape that was often associated with the Knights Radiant. Ancient scholars also placed the ten orders of Knights Radiant on this list, alongside the Heralds themselves, who each had a classical association with one of the numbers and Essences. I'm not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something entirely different. Questions: Some questions that come to my mind... What IS voidbinding? Is a listener bonded to a voidspren a voidbinder? Or is bonding to voidspren just like bonding to any other spren, and voidbinding is more like surgebinder, but with specific voidspren? Can a human be a voidbinder? Or is this completely off... Is voidbinding more related to the ten deaths, Thunderclasts, the Unmade, or other things like this? Is it voidbinding to create these things, or is voidbinding what they do? Why the heck is the void-Dustbringer symbol on the Kharbranth map? And why is the void-Truthwatcher symbol plastered all over both new and old maps of Roshar? What's going on with the center of this chart? Lots of things separate out the middle two from the other eight. Anyways... Some musing of my own... It strikes me that voidspren might be "corrupted" versions of normal spren. This is based on the Dalinar vision where they are searching for a spren that "doesn't act right." If something like this is correct... what does that mean for void-Bondsmiths? Are there any viable "great voidspren" that can make voidbinders of that type? I've got a little baby theory stirring around in my mind. What if the reason void-Bondsmiths and void-Truthwatchers are cut off here is because they don't exist at the time of this chart? 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 You know, we learned recently that we've seen hints of another end-negative magic system. I always suspected it was Voidbinding. Maybe Voidbinding actually consumes a spren? Maybe Kaladin started Voidbinding on accident when he was consuming Syl to power his Surges when he fell into the chasm in WoR? It's possible there are more Hemalurgy parallels, that it uses the same powers (the Surges) but accesses them in a different way, through capturing and consuming spren. That would be why they share the same symbols, which we know are the names of Surges and the names of Orders. But it's actually a different magic system, one that destroys spren in order to function. Lastly, an observation on the chart itself. It's three-dimensional; look at how the Windrunner/Edgedancer line crosses over and under various other lines. This is also present on the Surgebinding chart, but not as noticeable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 For 9. The woman is just symbolic, something Isaac added on his own accord. It doesn't have a deep Cosmere meaning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 it is an interesting idea that voidbinding consumes spren and is the other end negative system we've seen. #4 the void dustbringer and the symbols in the corner of the map don't look the same to me... am I missing something stylistically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackYeti Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 9 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said: #4 the void dustbringer and the symbols in the corner of the map don't look the same to me... am I missing something stylistically? Here's a comparison of the two symbols, with the latter rotated to match the orientation of the former: Now, excuse me whilst I mourn the final death of my Cognitive Surgebinding theory . May I have better luck next time I guess. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 *Urk*... thanks @BlackYeti... for some reason I just couldn't figure it out! I think because I was foncused and swapped the void-skybreaker and void-dustbringers in my mind. That is very odd that the void-dustbringer symbol would be attached to a map, unless the symbols still exist in Vorin lands they have just lost true meaning and now are used as pieces of art or decoration? Kind of like how people have shirts or posters or vases, etc with Egyptian Hieroglyphics on them. There is meaning there, but no one now (for the most part) knows what it is, and they are just used as decorative art. If Listener Forms are related to these symbols, then surely we've seen the void-windrunners in Stormform? Or maybe Stormform is more closely related to void-elsecallers as they called a storm to being and can sling lightning (like Jasnah, though not as accurate)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 56 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said: If Listener Forms are related to these symbols, then surely we've seen the void-windrunners in Stormform? Or maybe Stormform is more closely related to void-elsecallers as they called a storm to being and can sling lightning (like Jasnah, though not as accurate)? I distinctly remember people being shot down in the past by Brandon's WoB that we have not seen Voidbinding yet, so I'm inclined to disagree on this point. Granted, this chart also meant nothing at the time that was said, so... if we follow the logic that the "surges" on this chart are in fact void-surges, what pairing would make the most sense for creating a storm and/or lightning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted February 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 I'm skeptical that the Listeners performed voidbinding. The way I see it, the Listeners ability to bond with spren is an entirely natural thing, right? They were doing it before the Shards ever showed up, if I'm not mistaken. I think them bonding to a voidspren is no different from bonding to any other spren, in a sense. A "voidform" is just like any other form. The seemingly terrifying powers that these forms grant aren't voidbinding. It's just part of what that form can do. We've only seen them form bonds with fairly mundane spren so far... So it's not surprising that bonds with voidspren would grant forms that are more terrifying and unnatural than "normal". I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a Listener could technically bond with an honorspren as well (a listener bond, not a nahel bond) and get something more interesting than normal. I feel like voidbinding must be more analogous with surgebinding than what we saw in them. Don't have much proof for that... Just my speculation. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, jofwu said: I'm skeptical that the Listeners performed voidbinding. The way I see it, the Listeners ability to bond with spren is an entirely natural thing, right? They were doing it before the Shards ever showed up, if I'm not mistaken. I think them bonding to a voidspren is no different from bonding to any other spren, in a sense. A "voidform" is just like any other form. The seemingly terrifying powers that these forms grant aren't voidbinding. It's just part of what that form can do. We've only seen them form bonds with fairly mundane spren so far... So it's not surprising that bonds with voidspren would grant forms that are more terrifying and unnatural than "normal". I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a Listener could technically bond with an honorspren as well (a listener bond, not a nahel bond) and get something more interesting than normal. I feel like voidbinding must be more analogous with surgebinding than what we saw in them. Don't have much proof for that... Just my speculation. From a glyph analysis, it appears they all share the same pieces (which we think are derived from consonants in the Alethi word), so they should all be the same words. That would mean Voidbinding has Windrunners, it has Adhesion, it has Illumination, etc, but they are different in some ways of actual implementation. That's why I think it's very closely connected to Surgebinding, for now at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted February 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 I figured I'd pull up any explicit references of "voidbinding" and "voidspren" that I could find: Quote TWoK, Kadash speaking to Adolin: "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Quote TWoK Ars Arcanum: The preceding list is an imperfect gathering of traditional Vorin symbolism associated with the Ten Essences. Bound together, these form the Double Eye of the Almighty, an eye with two pupils representing the creation of plants and creatures. This is also the basis for the hourglass shape that was often associated with the Knights Radiant. Ancient scholars also placed the ten orders of Knights Radiant on this list, alongside the Heralds themselves, who each had a classical association with one of the numbers and Essences. I'm not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something entirely different. Quote Jasnah talking about spren to Shallan: “So you believe Namar’s theory on spren categorization?” “Yes.” “Good,” Jasnah said. “As do I. I suspect, personally, that these groupings of spren—emotion spren versus nature spren—are where the ideas of mankind’s primeval ‘gods’ came from. Honor, who became Vorinism’s Almighty, was created by men who wanted a representation of ideal human emotions as they saw in emotion spren. Cultivation, the god worshipped in the West, is a female deity that is an embodiment of nature and nature spren. The various Voidspren, with their unseen lord—whose name changes depending on which culture we’re speaking of—evoke an enemy or antagonist. The Stormfather, of course, is a strange offshoot of this, his theoretical nature changing depending on which era of Vorinism is doing the talking. . . .” Quote WoR finale: “Mmm . . .” Pattern said. “Bad. Very bad.” Inadara looked at Pattern, who dimpled the floor near Shallan. “I do not like this thing. Spren should not speak. It may be of them, a Voidbringer.” “I am not a Voidspren,” Pattern said. “Brightness Shallan—” “He’s not a Voidspren,” Shallan said absently. Quote Pattern talking about voidspren, probably the most interesting tidbit we have: The pops continued outside. “What is that?” she asked softly, finishing another plateau. “Stormspren,” Pattern said. “They are a variety of Voidspren. It is not good. I feel something very dangerous brewing. Draw more quickly.” ...later... “Mmmm,” Pattern said softly. “They are raising a storm.” “The Voidspren?” Shallan whispered. “The bonded ones. They craft a storm.” Quote WoR Ars Arcanum, probably irrelevant, but adds the following after an identical copy of the TWoK Ars Acanum passage above: Note that I currently believe the concept of the “Body Focus” to be more a matter of philosophical interpretation than an actual attribute of this Investiture and its manifestations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) So... We have some confirmation that a parshendi can become a KR. Which should requires a Nahel bond with a specific order's KR spren. If Stormspren are identified by Pattern as Voidspren, and if their taking Void based forms is similar mechanisms to them forming a Nahel bond with a KR spren, wouldn't they then be Voidbinding by taking a voidspren? Edited February 21, 2017 by Green Hoodie Mistborn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blightsong Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said: So... We have some confirmation that a parshendi can become a KR. Which should requires a Nahel bond with a specific order's KR spren. If Stormspren are identified by Pattern as Voidspren, and if their taking Void based forms is similar mechanisms to them forming a Nahel bond with a KR spren, wouldn't they then be Voidbinding by taking a voidspren? The above passages don't say that the Listeners taking void based forms are similar to a KR bonding spren, as far as i can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said: If Stormspren are identified by Pattern as Voidspren, and if their taking Void based forms is similar mechanisms to them forming a Nahel bond with a KR spren, wouldn't they then be Voidbinding by taking a voidspren? As Blightsong said, the two are not stated as being on the same level. And, merely bonding with a KR Spren does not count as Surgebinding, nor should merely taking in Stormlight. Surgebinding should refer to the active use of Stormlight to use one of the 10 Surges, while having a Nahel Bond and being Invested should be the passive terms for having a KR Spren Bond and holding in Stormlight, respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted February 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 47 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said: So... We have some confirmation that a parshendi can become a KR. Which should requires a Nahel bond with a specific order's KR spren. If Stormspren are identified by Pattern as Voidspren, and if their taking Void based forms is similar mechanisms to them forming a Nahel bond with a KR spren, wouldn't they then be Voidbinding by taking a voidspren? My argument is that (1) the "listener bond" and the "Nahel bond" are not the same thing, and that (2) the Nahel bond is associated with surgebinding/voidbinding while the listener forms are something separate. The first point is based on (a) the fact that humans can do one and not the other and (b) the fact that Brandon has said Parshendi don't (historically) form nahel bonds. So I feel good about the first point. The second point is based on similarities in terminology, symbolism, etc. There are "ten levels of Voidbinding" just as there are ten orders of Knights Radiant. The Voidbinding chart is heavily reminiscent of the Surgebinding chart, both in terms of structure and the symbols used. This suggests a close relationship between the two. Therefore, I propose that Voidbinding is associated with a Nahel bond (or some similar analog) rather than a listener bond. This doesn't help a whole lot since so little is known about the nature of the Nahel bond. (I, for one, am dying to know where that term came from... Is it named after a person? What does it mean?) But it does suggest that the stormform listeners were not Voidbinding. How do you explain what the stormform listeners were doing then? Well, they were just doing what they naturally do. They listener-bonded a spren and got a new form. This forms "abilities" naturally happen to include the power to summon the Everstorm. That does seem oddly more... unusual and powerful than their other forms' abilities. But this can be explained away by the fact that the only other forms we have seen are based on rather mundane spren. I would also propose that summoning the Everstorm wasn't as powerful as it may appear. They didn't just create a storm from scratch. They sang the thing into existence, probably related to their Rhythms somehow. Doesn't sound like a matter of Surges (or Voidsurges) to me. One other point... This suggests a rather interesting concept. Not only can Parshendi form a Nahel bond with a KR-spren... They can also, perhaps, form a listener bond with one. Theoretically. Assuming the spren allows them to, or they capture it, I suppose. They could bond with an honorspren to obtain "honorform" for example. They could bond with an inkspren to obtain "inkform". We can only guess what these forms might be able to do... I expect, given the nature of the associated spren, that they would be on the interesting side (as we see with stormspren). I expect it would NOT grant them the powers of the associated KR order. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 These are what I'm talking about: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1069#30 Quote QUESTION Can anyone other than a Parshendi bond a voidspren? Like, can a human bond a voidspren? BRANDON SANDERSON That is theoretically possible but humans are not good at bonding spren in the same way http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1069#31 Quote QUESTION How about the other way around? Can a Parshendi bond a KR spren? BRANDON SANDERSON Historically, the Parshendi were not made Knights Radiant, or the parshmen weren't. QUESTION Can they become squires maybe? BRANDON SANDERSON Historically they did not, but it's not impossible. So, these could be interpreted in a couple of ways, but I read them as "historically, Voidspren were only bonded by Parshendi and KR spren by humans, though it is possible for both to happen each way." http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1088#54 Quote QUESTION Can the forms of power of the listeners be treated as opposite / equivalents of the Orders of the Knights Radiant. Could we consider Stormforms to be anti-Windrunners? BRANDON SANDERSON You could consider it that way, but there is not a one-to-one analogue. QUESTION Because it looked like the powers of the voidforms are kind of like anti-Surges... BRANDON SANDERSON Yes, yes, there is definitely something there, but again I say, it's not a one-to-one correlation. They are not going to be exactly opposite. It is confusing, so if they are not opposites/equivalents, then they can't be the voidbinding. But if Voidspren historically were only bonded to Parshendi, then they must be the "historic" voidbinders that are spoken of, and not Humans who bond voidspren in some other way. The other interesting piece is Adolin's armor and the lightning flashes at the end of WoR. KR were created to help fight in the desolations against Voidbinders/bringers, etc. The lightning from Stormform is perfectly canceled out by Adolin's armor, indicating to me that it is a form of Voidbinding that the armor was created to help fight/block. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted February 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 @Green Hoodie Mistborn, this is good stuff. Thanks for pointing out that first WoB in particular. Definitely makes it sound like the listeners are Voidbinding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeskarKomrk Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 A relevant WoB to keep in mind: Quote Question How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them [have been seen?] Brandon Sanderson I would see the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing. Source This question was in 2016, so Words of Radiance had been out for a while. So whatever the Listeners are doing at the end of WoR, it isn't Voidbinding. This, to me, makes it seem like the Parshendi forms are completely different from Voidbinding and are instead a function of their natural ability to bond with spren. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted February 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 34 minutes ago, BeskarKomrk said: A relevant WoB to keep in mind: Source This question was in 2016, so Words of Radiance had been out for a while. So whatever the Listeners are doing at the end of WoR, it isn't Voidbinding. This, to me, makes it seem like the Parshendi forms are completely different from Voidbinding and are instead a function of their natural ability to bond with spren. Ah, completely forgot about this one! It's interesting that Brandon lists Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and fabrials then says "Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing".... While Khriss refers to the Old Magic as Voidbinding's "cousin". She does follow up saying that she suspects the Old Magic is "something entirely different", but it's still a strange wording. I'm curious what "esoteric abilities" she is referring to. Perhaps that is what the Listeners are doing... Something related to Surge/Voidbinding but definitely more mysterious. But how does that fit with Brandon's list of three magic systems? You also have to pull in the (arguably) magical nature of many creatures on Roshar as they interact with spren. Could it be that all of these "natural" lifeform-spren interactions (including the listeners) are considered a part of "fabrial magic"? Or would we say that all of these interactions (including the listeners) are just "natural magic", and Brandon isn't including them as a "magic system"? Perhaps a "magic system" here refers to a construct set up by a Shard (or Shards)... But then that implies fabrials weren't a thing before the Shards arrived on Roshar. This is all very tangled, and a bit off topic... But I think these are all things that have to be considered to understand what Voidbinding is and how it fits in. If the listeners aren't Voidbinding... Who or what is? Something like Thunderclasts, the Ten Deaths, etc. are the next answer my mind jumps to... But I'm pretty sure this same WoB eliminates them as well... Unless maybe Brandon is playing with words (we've seen those things, but we haven't seen them doing magic). The cleanest answer is that humans do Voidbinding. It's just an "evil version" of Surgebinding. But we've had NO hint of humans being "bad guys" in the past. It's always the Voidbringers, the Unmade, Voidspren, Ten Deaths, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 9 minutes ago, jofwu said: If the listeners aren't Voidbinding... Who or what is? Something like Thunderclasts, the Ten Deaths, etc. are the next answer my mind jumps to... But I'm pretty sure this same WoB eliminates them as well... Unless maybe Brandon is playing with words (we've seen those things, but we haven't seen them doing magic). The cleanest answer is that humans do Voidbinding. It's just an "evil version" of Surgebinding. But we've had NO hint of humans being "bad guys" in the past. It's always the Voidbringers, the Unmade, Voidspren, Ten Deaths, etc. Well.. IIRC so far the "Ten Deaths" have just been a phrase, not something we have really seen as something, so they are only out on technicality. Same with Thunderclasts, we've only seen one die and one be (born?) Humans doing Voidbinding, as you said there is little to no foreshadowing that it was ever a thing, and the 1st WoB provided by Green Hoodie Mistborn says that Humans are not good at bonding Spren in that way. This implies that Human Voidbinders would be quite rare, not a feasible way for Odium to raise an army. As for the Listeners not Voidbinding, consider the stanza in the Listener Song of Winds about Stormform: Quote Stormform is said to cause A tempest of winds and showers, Beware its powers, beware its powers.Though its coming brings the gods their night, It obliges a bloodred spren. Beware its end, beware its end. Bold added. We know that Stormform can create the Everstorm, but per the Stormfather(and/or Tanavast himself) it's an old design, but newly created. Implying, to me at least, that this is the first one that they have made. How else can this form bring the gods their night, which is presumably a reference to a Desolation? Stormform could merely be the first, the taste, to get them hooked. (gateway drug references... oh joy :/ ) Once they are under his control, he brings in the proper Voidspren. The Song of Secrets mentions Decayform, Smokeform, Nightform, maybe others. Decay seems like Division, similar but different. Nightform has future-sight, as we believe Truthwatchers do.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted February 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: IIRC so far the "Ten Deaths" have just been a phrase, not something we have really seen as something The Midnight Essence was named as one of them wasn't it? And I think we saw enough of them doing what they do to reasonably rule them out. I agree on Thunderclasts, but I do think we can assume that their creation isn't an example of Voidbinding. And the little we do know doesn't seem to suggest that they do magic once created. So I'm doubtful about them. 6 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: 1st WoB provided by Green Hoodie Mistborn says that Humans are not good at bonding Spren in that way That's how I read it at first, BUT I think the phrase "in the same way" is key here. I think there's some missing context. The questioner begins by referencing the Parshendi bond and asks if humans can bond the Voidspren as well. Brandon's answer says "humans are not good at bonding spren in the same way". This implies to me that he's referring to something more like the listener bond, as something distinct from the Nahel bond. It's possible these bonds are basically the same thing, and I'm reading into that too much. As for Stormform only being a "gateway" to Voidbinding... That sounds like a stretch to me. Lots of tenuous assumptions that don't feel right, as I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 23 minutes ago, jofwu said: That's how I read it at first, BUT I think the phrase "in the same way" is key here. I think there's some missing context. The questioner begins by referencing the Parshendi bond and asks if humans can bond the Voidspren as well. Brandon's answer says "humans are not good at bonding spren in the same way". This implies to me that he's referring to something more like the listener bond, as something distinct from the Nahel bond. It's possible these bonds are basically the same thing, and I'm reading into that too much. This has been my take on the topic pretty much since I saw the WoB. It does sound a little weird, but it looks like all Brandon is saying is that humans can't really bond spren in the way Listeners do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) Good catch on the Midnight Essence line, forgot all about that. Fair enough on your interpretation of Brandon's words, I guess we both read it too quickly the first time 53 minutes ago, jofwu said: As for Stormform only being a "gateway" to Voidbinding... That sounds like a stretch to me. Lots of tenuous assumptions that don't feel right, as I see it. Well, I guess we can agree to disagree if you want. It made sense in my head when I wrote it, I just didn't really explain it that well. The lightning provided by Stormform isn't Voidbinding, so it seemed like it had to be an inherent ability of that Form. A boost over things like Warform, but not expressly "dark magic" per se. Something to make the them want the form, take it willingly, so that Odium can assert control over them later if he needs to. Humanity is a warlike culture, and they're more militaristic by necessity because of the Desolations. It was only a matter of time before someone else made the Parshendi -> Voidbringer connection and tried to hunt them down (possible similar discovery for the Scouring of Aimia? off topic, sorry) All Odium/the Unmade would have to do is offer them an edge, a Form of Power. A chance to win their war swiftly, a chance that they took in WoR. All societies are filled with different people, different opinions. Someone will always be willing to take the power. Even the good guy who only wants to protect his people. He accepts the power, joins the battle with his Warform brethren, and is something like a Shardbearer among normal men. Pushing back the enemy, attaining victory, being a symbol for hope in this case. Suddenly everyone wants to be a hero like him, and lo and behold: they can. All odium has to do is offer the hero the power to save his people, wait patiently as others take up that same power, and suddenly he has an army that joined him willingly. They were deceived of course, but that's how the trope goes. "Failure breeds innovation, but success leads to mass production." Edited February 22, 2017 by The One Who Connects wording Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyperson Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) Could Voidspren possibly be the "abandoned" spren of the Radiants of old? What remained after the oaths were broken? Void, in this case, meaning lacking a bond/oath? Edited February 22, 2017 by bleeder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted February 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 29 minutes ago, bleeder said: Could Voidspren possibly be the "abandoned" spren of the Radiants of old? What remained after the oaths were broken? Void, in this case, meaning lacking a bond/oath? No, that's what the Shardblades are. Plus from Dalinar's visions I think we can be pretty sure that Voidspren were around prior to the Recreance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soyperson Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, jofwu said: No, that's what the Shardblades are. Plus from Dalinar's visions I think we can be pretty sure that Voidspren were around prior to the Recreance. Ah, gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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