Stormwalker Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 It might be worth noting that another name for the 180 degree rotational symmetry seen in the void surges is antisymmetry, which might suggest an inverted relationship to the (symmetric) KR surges. It also might make sense why it is paired with the Shadesmar map then, as Shadesmar also displays some inverted qualities to the physical realm (e.g. land is water, water is land). ps: I haven't visited the site in a couple years, so hello to those who may remember me (but probably don't, as I didn't post that much anyway). It's nice to see some familiar names are still here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fulminato Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) Quote Smokeform “Smokeform for hiding and slipping between men.A form of power, like human Surges. Bring it 'round again. Though crafted of gods, It was by Unmade hand. Leaves its force to be but one of foe or friend. ” —127th stanza of the Song of Histories “Smokeform for hiding and slipping 'tween men.A form of power—like Surges of spren Do we dare to wear this form again? It spies. Crafted of gods, this form we fear. By Unmade touch its curse to bear, Formed from shadow—and death is near. It lies. ” —51st stanza of the Song of Secrets http://coppermind.net/wiki/Listener can be the smokeform one of the 'void-order'? Edited March 2, 2017 by Fulminato 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krandacth Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 2 hours ago, Fulminato said: http://coppermind.net/wiki/Listener can be the smokeform one of the 'void-order'? Holy chull-leavings, I'd never seen those stanza's side by side before. I can't decide which is a corruption of the other, but it seems clear that this is what happened. My suspicion is that Smokeform is a voidform, considered like human/Spren-leant surges in a similar way to Stormform. This would make the second stanza closer to the truth, with the first having lost enough words over time to leave a more favourable accounting of the form, once the lines are coerced to make some form of sense again. This is also a more likely way for meanings to change than people accidentally adding words... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 2, 2017 Report Share Posted March 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Krandacth said: I can't decide which is a corruption of the other, but it seems clear that this is what happened. Why do you think one is corrupted? The way I read them, they both cover the same ideas - smokeform is a form of power, it grants abilities like spren/surges, it's of the gods, be wary of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galendo Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 8 hours ago, Argent said: Why do you think one is corrupted? The way I read them, they both cover the same ideas - smokeform is a form of power, it grants abilities like spren/surges, it's of the gods, be wary of it. No, I totally get what @Krandacth is saying. Look at the lines one against each other. The first two are effectively the same, but then: Bring it 'round again vs. Do we dare wear this form again? It spies. The first is saying "Do this." The second asks "Do we dare do this?" The second paints a far less rosy picture of the form. Though crafted of gods vs. Crafted of gods, this form we fear. Again, the second is definitely treating the form with far more caution. It was by Unmade hand vs. By Unmade touch it's curse to bear. Note the the first is missing the word curse. The first is strictly objective; the second is making a value judgement against the form. Leaves its force to be but one of foe or friend vs. Formed from shadow -- and death is near. It lies. Again, the first is painting a much less fearsome picture of the form than the second. Taken all together, the second stanza seems a warning against the form (note the words dare, spies, fear, curse, and lies), while the first form is missing all that. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 3, 2017 Report Share Posted March 3, 2017 Sure, the second one is more cautious towards smokeform, but I would expect something out of the Song of Histories to be a little more focused on plain information. I mean, compare the other excerpt we have from the Song of Histories: Quote 'Tis said it was warm in the land far away When Voidbringers entered our songs. We brought them home to stay And then those homes became their own, It happened gradually. And years ahead 'twil still be said '’tis how it has to be. 12th stanza against some of the stuff we see in the Song of Secrets: Quote Decayform destroys the souls of dreams. A form of gods, to avoid it seems. Seek not its touch, nor beckon its screams, deny it. Watch where you walk, your toes to tread. O'er hill or rocky riverbed Hold dear to fears that fill your head, defy it. 27th stanza Once again we see Histories being more timid, more about an objective account of what was, while Secrets is more cautionary. The other available stanzas from Secrets are not as extreme in this regard, but the only form mentioned in them is nightform, and it (like the Order of the Truthwatchers) might be a bit of a special case. So I stand by what I said - I think the reason the songs convey different messages is simply because they serve different purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asamac Posted March 4, 2017 Report Share Posted March 4, 2017 The way that the first one and a half lines are virtually the same suggests that one is a corruption of the other. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted March 6, 2017 Report Share Posted March 6, 2017 I think we may need to do the whole "agree to disagree" on this one. I see the Song of Secrets as a fundamentally more knowledgeable song that teaches things the Song of Histories has no business discussing - such as the dangers of of smokeform and the fact that the surges come from spren, not men. I see the similarities and go "of course, they were written by the same (group of) people". I am finding it difficult to accept your interpretation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagerunner Posted March 6, 2017 Report Share Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) Separate sources, discussing the same broad topic, but having differences because the they were written for different target audiences... where have I heard that before? I agree that it's likely one of the songs was based on the other, but I wouldn't call it a 'corruption.' The Song of Secrets might have come first, and then when they were putting together the Song of Histories for everyone, they used parts of the Song of Secrets, interspersed with new information (which is why Histories is longer) and cutting out the secrets. On the other hand, the Song of Histories might have been first, and they took verses from the Song of Histories and changed them to include Secrets. Alternatively, they might both be drawn from another, older song, which has fallen out of use. But, either way, I agree that the specific repeated words and phrases is an indication as to the in-universe history and source of the Songs, even though they have different purposes and are for different audiences. EDIT: Secrets is probably the later of the two. In its first like, it abbreviates 'between,' since it apparently wouldn't fit with the cadence of the song. This indicates to me that the phrase originated in Histories, where it fits, and was slightly altered to fit into Secrets. Edited March 6, 2017 by Pagerunner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted March 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2017 On 3/2/2017 at 3:50 PM, Argent said: Why do you think one is corrupted? The way I read them, they both cover the same ideas - smokeform is a form of power, it grants abilities like spren/surges, it's of the gods, be wary of it. I think he meant "corrupted" in the sense that one is likely a time-worn version of the other. Like the way "Jingle Bells, Batman Smells" is a corruption of the original song. It doesn't mean one of them is bad/wrong/etc. While it's possible they were both written around the same time, to convey slightly different aspects of the same form, it's more likely that one was composed first and then evolved into the other (or was changed intentionally) over time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArborealEtymologist Posted March 8, 2017 Report Share Posted March 8, 2017 On 2/20/2017 at 10:18 PM, Green Hoodie Mistborn said: it is an interesting idea that voidbinding consumes spren and is the other end negative system we've seen. Or, considering the hints from the Listener songs - might it be that it consumes the being bonding the spren? ("Death is near" / "beware its end") 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonaRin Posted April 19, 2017 Report Share Posted April 19, 2017 (edited) One thing I wanted to discuss. Quote The betrayal of spren has brought us here. They gave their Surges to human heirs, But not to those who know them most dear, before us. 'Tis no surprise we turned away Unto the gods we spent our days And to become their molding clay, they changed us. We have Listeners that say they turned to their Gods because spren betrayed them, giving surges to men instead of Listeners, which have been bonding spren since forever. Why did spren choose to give surges to humans? This stanza indicates it was before Listeners got forms of power, so it was not to protect humans, it was not because they feared voidbringers. To answer this question we need to ask ourselves what is the difference between Nahel bond and Listener bond. We see Eshonai transform. Quote The spren became a streak of red light and hit her in the chest. Tendrils of red spread outward. We also follow her before that transformation. There is no spren flying around her, she doesn't communicate with it. It just is there, somewhere within her body. (Prologue to stormlight 3 spoiler) Spoiler There is also prologue to Oathbringer from a reading where Gavilar explains fabrials to Eshonai and she compares it in her mind to the way listeners work. Meanwhile spren bonded by Nahel bond are separate entities, thinking, feeling, growing. They give something to men - surges - while receiving something back - sentience. It's a symbiosis. While listener bond is either commensalism (one party gains, the other neither gains nor loses) or exploitation (one party gains, the other loses) - I personally think it's commensalism, but who knows, we didn't actually see Eshonai release the previous spren she was bonded with as a warform. (Again, spoiler for stormlight 3 prologue) Spoiler And it's indeed similar to fabrials. The spren is trapped inside - granting it's powers. It can be released from fabrial for sure though. Side note - fabrials feed on stormlight. We don't see parshendi using stormlight to maitain the form. My guess is that they need to use their own energy/investiture for that. And, analogically, I suspect powerforms also feed on the host. Tadah, end-negative system. But I admit it's just my speculation. There's no surprise that sentient spren rather wanted to bond humans, that could give them something. Of course they probably didn't know the bond is kind of permanent and they could die because of it. When they found out they stopped bonding with humans too. So. We have Listeners feeling betrayed and jealous. And we have Odium seeing an opportunity. He gave Listeners his spren, because they wanted power, but his spren are spies. Quote A form of power—like Surges of spren Do we dare to wear this form again? It spies. Quote They are his spren, his gift, his price Our gods were born splinters of a soul, Of one who seeks to take control, Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. They are his spren, his gift, his price. His price. These spren are both gift and price. And so Odium crafted a weapon. PS. All the quotes are from coppermind. Edited April 19, 2017 by strumienpola 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted May 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2017 This is a fantastic analysis @strumienpola. I've always been under the assumption that the "forms of power" (i.e. voidbringers) showed up sooner than the Nahel bond. It seems like the voidbringers have been around as long as the Desolations, and we know the Knights Radiant didn't show up until after the Desolations started. So what does this mean? Did the Listeners not become Odium's minions until after the KR were founded? It's worth noting that we don't see any of them in Dalinar's flashbacks. Just odiumspren monsters like Midnight Essence and Thunderclasts. Or did the Nahel bond exist prior to the Desolations? Maybe spren bonding with men has been a much older thing than I expected, and the KR was more of a formality that came about later. Perhaps the formation of the KR opened the door to deeper/stronger usage of the bond for some reason. If this is the case, what were these pre-KR Nahel bonds like? It seems to me that one of these must be the case, and either has interesting implications. Your point about listeners needing to feed energy/investiture to their bond is an interesting one that strongly reminds me of Lift's "condition". If you're right, I wonder if they are able to metabolize food into the investiture needed. Heck, perhaps all of the native Rosharan creatures (with gemhearts?) can do this? Pair this with the fact that Lift can see more strongly into the cognitive realm and she bears some striking resemblance to the Listeners. Do we have any evidence that Listeners can touch spren as Lift can? (Then again, can she touch any spren or just Wyndle? Her bond with him might make that a special case.) I dunno, it just seems to me like there's an interesting theory about Lift under all of this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonaRin Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 17 hours ago, jofwu said: This is a fantastic analysis @strumienpola.I've always been under the assumption that the "forms of power" (i.e. voidbringers) showed up sooner than the Nahel bond. It seems like the voidbringers have been around as long as the Desolations, and we know the Knights Radiant didn't show up until after the Desolations started. So what does this mean? Did the Listeners not become Odium's minions until after the KR were founded? It's worth noting that we don't see any of them in Dalinar's flashbacks. Just odiumspren monsters like Midnight Essence and Thunderclasts. Or did the Nahel bond exist prior to the Desolations? Maybe spren bonding with men has been a much older thing than I expected, and the KR was more of a formality that came about later. Perhaps the formation of the KR opened the door to deeper/stronger usage of the bond for some reason. If this is the case, what were these pre-KR Nahel bonds like? It seems to me that one of these must be the case, and either has interesting implications. In one of Dalinar's visions Nohadon asks what to do with the surgebinders and then says he doesn't think there can be anything done with them. We also know that Knights Radiant followed Nihadon's The Way of Kings. The vision was pre-WoK and surgebinders existed. Also, Syl says that spren figured out how to reproduce honorblades (and surges?) themselves and we know that KR were "founded" by one of the heralds. And Nalan promised to destroy each one of them if they didn't obey the rules. I always assumed KR was just the way to systematize and control Radiants. The was also a WoB that it is possible to have surgebinding powers not aligned with the 10 orders if some other spren figures out the Nahel bond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant_Jaeger Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 So we know of some voidbinding forms already from the song of secrets. I think Nightform matches Truthwatchers, because unless he's got a void spren Renarin can fortell the future as well as Nightform which predicts what will be. I think Stormform is the Wind runners opposite but what about the others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erandeni Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 @Radiant_Jaeger I am not sure that the forms of power are the void-orders, they seems like different things to me.The orders seems to have a pairs of void-surges (except the two centrals), while the forms seem to have one special power(see the future, make lightnings...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciridae Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 (edited) I'm not sure if stormform is even on the voidbinding chart. If there are ten orders of voidbinders and each is as powerful as stormform, that doesn't seem like a mirror of surgebinding. What we have seen of stormform shows that even regular soldiers, even if they are frightened, are still able to fight against them effectively. The main advantage of stormform is being able to move without difficulty in a storm, which falls away in a non-storm setting. Shooting lightning is scary but the soldiers got used to it quickly and I think Adolin says it's no different than advancing on archers. One stormform facing one radiant is no match at all and I feel like the voidbinding chart is supposed to show that the parshendi will have something similar to surgebinders. I think it's more likely that stormform is the default footsoldier voidbringer and that we'll get voidbinders that are equivalent to radiants in terms of power but with different abilities. I at least expect some form of stormlight healing. I also think the number of these voidbinders will be significantly lower, equal, maybe slightly larger, to the amount of radiants. Long odds for the radiants if they have to fight something their equal in addition to stone monsters etc. but it is the end of the world. Edit: Ninja'd with a better example of what I was trying to say Edited May 7, 2017 by Ciridae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts