What do you make of the new information about the cause of desolations?

[yurisses]

We've been wondering for quite a while about why Nale thinks Knights Radiants can cause desolations and Edgedancer gave us a tiny bit more information why:

Quote

If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths. Without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds.

 

What are your theories as to how the yet-to-be-discovered greater power of the oaths can potentially allow Voidbringers to return if Honor is not here to regulate this?

[kari-no-sugata]

It would be very interesting to know all the background theory behind the quoted points. For example, what would Honor be regulating that would make a difference? However, I don't think this necessarily tells us anything new about any historical Desolations. Firstly, per WoB, they were an inevitable result of the presence of the Heralds (if I remember that WoB correctly) and as far as I'm aware there's no hints that one has ever been caused by any other method. Secondly, whether or not Ishar has gone over to Odium, gone insane, gone paranoid or whatever, I don't think we can trust his arguments - he's either deliberately lying to Nale/Darkness or blind to reality.

It's possible that Ishar's argument is technically correct but highly misleading - for example, it might require the heavy presence of Radiants for millions of years to have any chance of happening. If it's something like that then his argument isn't worth much.

Ishar's argument might not be new. He might have used it to trigger the Recreance, for example. If he thinks (or is willing to argue) that Honor needs to be around for Radiants to be "safe" then Honor's impending death would imply that the Radiants must go.

[ZenBossanova]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I don't think we can trust his [Ishar's] arguments - he's either deliberately lying to Nale/Darkness or blind to reality.

Word

All the Heralds are actively avoiding their responsibility (9 of them, anyway). Even Nale is using his job to avoid his real responsibility. 

So, if you get a shardblade with the 3rd oath, shardplate (maybe) with the 4th, what do you get for the 5th oath? 

[Blightsong]

I think it has to do with how the magic system and its use affects the Shardworld itself, it will be very interesting to learn how this type of stuff functions.

[Jofwu]

It makes me wonder if the Recreance is connected. Maybe the KR realized where their existence would eventually lead, so they decided they had to abandon their oaths so that things never went that far...

Huh...  Wow! Has this idea ever been considered? I bet this is why the recreance happened, and why Nale (and others) thinks the Radiants are dangerous.

With Desolations happening from time to time, the Knighs Radiant never advanced far enough to reach this greater power.  they kept getting decimated they kept getting decimated, and had to rebuild every time. Then suddenly the Desolations end. Just like Nale says, they naturally began to progress to some point where things apparently became dangerous. They realize this, and decide that breaking their oaths is the only solution. And the Skybreakers, the rule followers, stick around to make sure it all never happens again, under Nale's leadership.

It makes so much sense!

Can anyone link me to this theory about Ishar? I missed that.

[vikorr]

 

3 hours ago, jofwu said:

Huh...  Wow! Has this idea ever been considered? I bet this is why the recreance happened, and why Nale (and others) thinks the Radiants are dangerous.

I was just about to post on another thread (related to the cause of the Recreance), when I thought I'd better go look, and see if someone else thinks the same thing.

I have always thought it most likely that Nale convinced the KR that they needed to abandon their oaths, in order to destroy the Nahel Bond, to prevent a further desolation. What other possible reason could ever get everyone to act in concert?

- Not war (because if they thought it wasn't right, they wouldn't participate)

- Not politics (because they would deal with the problematic politician/s...and they were already somewhat divided anyway, so all agreeing is very problematic)

- Not a cataclysm (which is what they are there for)

...so what other possible reason could result in ALL of them agreeing to break the Nahel Bond at the same time? Not just all amongst an order, but all amongst all the orders? (which seems likely, or an order would have survived to this day, you would think)

Whether or not someone else convinced Nale of that 'truth' seems irrelevant to me. It's not the KR that cause it:

- Desolations occurred before the KR, so it's not the KR that cause it.

-It's not using investiture either (which is what Nale directly when talking about Lifts use of stormlight), because the Heralds went to 'another place' in between desolations, and the use of Investiture like the KR only came about when spren discovered the Nahel Bond...some time after the Heralds were founded, but before Nohadon wrote Way of Kings. 

So my bet has always been that Nale was looking for some explanation, no matter how tenuous, to justify his betrayal of:

- Tanavast

- the Oathpact; and perhaps worst of all (as it would likely play on his mind constantly)

- Taln

Such a massive betrayal must have profound / severe psychological consequences. So in order to deal with it, he gripped onto 'it's not my fault, it must be the Knights' Radiant', and 'my betrayal is okay, because I can work to stop another desolation' and has been hunting fledgling KR ever since.

 

[Jofwu]

Hm, that's interesting.

My take on it is that his position did actually have some truth to it. It's just that another Desolation has happened anyways. Perhaps from some unforseen or misunderstood reason. He had a hard time accepting the truth not because he had been lying to himself all along, but because all of his effort was a waste.

Not to say he isn't crazy. ;-)

[1stBondsmith]

15 hours ago, vikorr said:

So my bet has always been that Nale was looking for some explanation, no matter how tenuous, to justify his betrayal of:

- Tanavast

- the Oathpact; and perhaps worst of all (as it would likely play on his mind constantly)

- Taln

I do believe that Ishi sent him on this mission. I would lay most of the blame for the betrayal at his feet.

[What's a Seawolf?]

16 hours ago, vikorr said:

- Not war (because if they thought it wasn't right, they wouldn't participate)

- Not politics (because they would deal with the problematic politician/s...and they were already somewhat divided anyway, so all agreeing is very problematic)

- Not a cataclysm (which is what they are there for)

...so what other possible reason could result in ALL of them agreeing to break the Nahel Bond at the same time? Not just all amongst an order, but all amongst all the orders? (which seems likely, or an order would have survived to this day, you would think)

 

Before that little tidbit in the OP came out, the theory I most subscribed to as the reasoning behind the Recreance was that the KR discovered the Heralds weren't the only ones being sent to Braize.  Be it because of the bond with spren or some other reason, KR also go to Braize when they die, and this discovery caused most of the KR to say 'you know what, screw it, it's not worth dying for that.'

If we assume the OP quote is true, and not something corrupted perhaps by Ishar's insanity/betrayal, than that kind of throws my theory out the window.

I really like your idea that Nale convinced the KR to abandon their bonds to justify his own past actions and poor decisions, but I feel like it would have had to be one hell of a lie to convince the KR to abandon en masse.  I think there was definitely some lying by Ishar and Nale feeding the reason why the KR broke their bonds, but I also think there was a significant, factual reason as well.

[dvoraen]

On 12/1/2016 at 11:48 AM, yurisses said:

We've been wondering for quite a while about why Nale thinks Knights Radiants can cause desolations and Edgedancer gave us a tiny bit more information why:

Quote

If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths. Without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds.

What are your theories as to how the yet-to-be-discovered greater power of the oaths can potentially allow Voidbringers to return if Honor is not here to regulate this?

I think we can answer this question, though it's a bit of a leap of logic.  First, though let's start with reviewing the following major points of what we know:

1) A Nahel bond is, at the core, a spren's imitation of a given Honorblade.  Ten Heralds were given ten Honorblades, bestowing upon each of them two Surges, and then "spren figured out what He'd done, and we imitated it," according to Sylphrena, and we have no reason to doubt her statement whatsoever.

2) Radiants gain increased power and abilities by speaking certain Words.  These Words are based on the spren and/or the Order/Surges that a given 'Initiate of Roshar' is bonding.  We have more than enough examples of this.

3) Each Order has only five Ideals.

 

Or do they?  The one thing that's been bothering me about the quote from Nale in the OP is the fact that Honor 'regulated' this so-called greater power.  Why would Honor need to do that?  I think this is the major point, and I think that this necessity, combined with what we know about those engaged in a Nahel bond, allows us to deduce what the issue really is.  Which leads me to the following theory:

Nahel bond candidates can potentially grow into Heralds.

My assertion for this is largely based on the fact that spren-Shardblades are an attempt to duplicate the effects of the Honorblades. This would imply that, over time, a Radiant could have a Shardblade that becomes increasingly closer to an Honorblade.  The five Ideals are, in my opinion, the above-mentioned 'regulation', which is to say that the fifth set of Words was the limit for a given Radiant; he or she had reached the supposed limit of his or her powers.

But Honor isn't around to keep a cork in the bottle anymore, and we don't know exactly how the Stormfather arbitrates this progression system when Words are spoken.  Additionally, nine of the ten Heralds threw in the towel, therefore creating nine potential "job openings" for someone who - I presume - says the right thing.  Words - more precisely, the sincerity of the idea they convey - are what seems to be the requirement to gain power under Honor's system.  To me, this same methodology was what the Heralds did (swearing oaths to the Oathpact) when they were formed.  Thus, it's possible that someone could take up this particular mantle by swearing the right oath.  Whether an Honorblade itself is necessary is the real question.  That said, it's a very unlikely possibility (someone learning what Words to say to become a Herald), thus why Nale finds it a small chance, yet there still remains a chance that it could happen.

Either way, I think the bolded point is the major danger that Nale is implying.  If someone inadvertently stumbles into becoming a pseudo-Herald, then that alone would be theoretically sufficient to trigger a Desolation.  Heralds bound to the Oathpact trigger Desolations by not leaving Roshar in time, that's straight from Brandon.

Lastly, there's another point to consider: a Death Rattle.  

Quote

Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red.

Why only ten, when reforming the Radiants should mean significantly more Shardblades should be present opposing the wall?  I claim this is because Heralds are as needed as Radiants to win this fight, and to do that, a person must be able to become one.  The best candidates would, therefore, be Radiants who at least understand their particular "path of Honor", to say nothing of experience with their powers.  Honor isn't able to anoint a Herald, now, so logically this would suggest that one can arrive at that point if shown the way.

So yeah, I think there's a little conjecture supporting the idea.

Edited December 3, 2016 by dvoraen

[Spoolofwhool]

8 minutes ago, dvoraen said:

Nahel bond candidates can potentially grow into Heralds.

An interesting thought. I'm not sure exactly how I feel about it. I think though that I'm weighing more towards disagree than agree. The main reason, is that the Heralds are clearly more than what their Honorblades gave them. Even without their blades, the Heralds demonstrate an unaging quality, possibly precluding to immortality. Also, Taln possessed higher reflexes than normal. I don't think it is impossible to assume that at a base, they are enhanced over regular humans, before considering whatever enhancements Honorblades bestow upon them. 

There is also the fact that in answer to your question, it appears that the Honorblades are a part of the Oathpact. That's why the Heralds left behind their blades at the end of the Last Desolation, because they believed it would sunder their connection to the Oathpact. 

In addition, it seems unlikely to me that any spren would be willing to enable someone to reach the level of power that the Heralds held. That's why they created the system of ideals and words, along with having each KR have a spren to guide them, so that the power could not be abused. Remember how Syl reacted when she observed the Honorblade, and made the observance that whoever wielded its power would be able to act unchecked.  

I'm not going to lie though, there is cause to support this theory. Brandon has implied that the KRs were, to some extent, caught in the Oathpact as well. As such, I don't see it as impossible that there could be a mechanism to allow a KR to advance to be something along the lines of a Herald within the system of the Oathpact. We've already seen possible evidence that Honor was sloppy with the creation of the Oathpact anyways, by way of making it so that anyone can gain power from an Honorblade. It seems likely that the intention was for them to only be held by the Heralds. 

I think there was something else I wanted to say, but it's late so I can't remember.

Side note though, nothing is giving people surges, just the ability to bind surges. Yes nitpick.

[Vissy]

On 2.12.2016 at 0:24 AM, ZenBossanova said:

Word

All the Heralds are actively avoiding their responsibility (9 of them, anyway). Even Nale is using his job to avoid his real responsibility. 

So, if you get a shardblade with the 3rd oath, shardplate (maybe) with the 4th, what do you get for the 5th oath? 

For the 5th oath, you get cake. Radiant Cake.

[Subvisual Haze]

I think the temporal connection between Kaladin having his explosive rush of power at the Crown Tower and Taln returning to the world are important.  The desolation trigger is probably something like

• once a Herald throws in the towel on Braize and returns to Roshar, the "door" to Roshar is open.  All Heralds get summoned to Roshar and Odium also gets freer reign to intervene on the planet.  A big rumble happens, then all the crews return home (for some unknown reason) until the next throw down.

The Heralds were pretty smart to all stay behind on Roshar and leave the whole painful responsibility on Taln to resist the torture and delay desolations.  I think their partially abandoning their Heraldic responsibilities was kind of like posting a spiritual job opening for the role though.  If an individual Radiant started being a better representation of the Heraldic role "Protection, Lawfulness etc., or maybe even just "Honor" in general" than the current Herald they could seize the Herald's shard-splinter and essentially become the Herald them-self, thereby triggering a Desolation.  After all, the spren created Radiants in imitation of how Honor created his Heralds.  It's hard to think of a pattern of events that could better represent the virtues of protection than what Kaladin went through with Syl to try to save Bridge 4 and later Dalinar's army.  There's also some sort of magical Connection and destiny at play too.  This is probably the main reason Nale was killing proto-Radiants, to stop them from advancing to the point of Herald-like status.  

Just like Vin was specially capable of seizing the power of Preservation due to poorly understood genetic/spiritual factors, it seems likely that Kaladin has some sort of natural resonance with Protection/Honor.  Although I don't think Brandon will directly repeat the "mortal ascends to God" plotline from Mistborn, I think it is pretty likely that Kaladin is on the path to future Herald status, or even becoming the new holder of a diminished Honor shard (holding the biggest "chunk" of Honor's splintered shard).

[Vissy]

If that theory is true, then Taln is really a mother-effing badass. 4,500 years of torture and only now the guy gave in?

[Savanorn]

6 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said:

If that theory is true, then Taln is really a mother-effing badass. 4,500 years of torture and only now the guy gave in?

Pretty much yeah. 

But "badass" kinda seems the Stoneward thing, from the "I will stand" oath to Taln being the "do the impossible even if it kills me" guy. Storms, I think Taravangian even notes in the epigraph that it's amazing that Roshar has had a reprive of some four millenia because of him. 

[Vissy]

Hell, it's essentially Taln's sacrifice that presumably will give Rosharians the chance to throw off the yoke of Odium. Man is the true hero of Roshar.

[kari-no-sugata]

Regarding "If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths", I would say that the most straightforward reading of this would be "once spren start bonding with men again, then it is natural to expect them to progress with their Oaths and so long as that continues then they will naturally reach the peak power of the Oaths". Or to use more modern (in world) terminology, "once the bonding process begins it's natural to expect them to gain the strength of full Knights Radiant".

So why is it phrased vaguely? Well, the in-world explanation would probably be that Ishar doesn't regard any people who have bonded spren to automatically be "Knights Radiant" in the same way that anyone with a spear or sword is not automatically a "soldier".

Maybe there is some hidden meaning that refers to things we don't know about but that's how I understand this sentence. How it logically leads to the rest I don't know - we'd need to know what Honor was "regulating".

[Govir]

So if Nale really thought that the bonding of spren could bring about the return of the Desolations...why is he training people to become Skybreakers? People who have clearly bonded with a spren since they can "fly"...unless both people had Honorblades, but that is unlikely; especially ones that allow them to "fly".

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Govir said:

So if Nale really thought that the bonding of spren could bring about the return of the Desolations...why is he training people to become Skybreakers? People who have clearly bonded with a spren since they can "fly"...unless both people had Honorblades, but that is unlikely; especially ones that allow them to "fly".

The short answer is probably because he's a hypocrite. The long answer is that he wasn't really worried about KRs generally, but more the unregulated bonding. He probably believed that he could regulate his skybreakers, thereby preventing whatever greater bond phase he referenced which would bring about the True Desolation. Also, they definitely didn't have Honorblades granting power over the Surge of Gravitation since both are accounted for: Jezerien's honorblade held by Kaladin and Nale's honorblade held by Nale.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Praying Allomantis]

On 12/3/2016 at 2:02 PM, Rob Lucci said:

For the 5th oath, you get cake. Radiant Cake.

Shardcake.

[DSC01]

3 hours ago, Praying Allomantis said:

Shardcake.

Not cookies?

[Yata]

I think that the part "without Honor to regulate it" is only about the number of Radiant Spren avaliable. If there is a risk to start a desolation if there are too much Radiant Knight. Honor would simply regulate the amount of Radiant Spren avaliable....Now He is death, and almost all his power turned into Radiant Spren, now there are too much of them.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Yata

[RShara]

Maybe because when spren cross over, they weaken whatever it is that keeps them away?  And that makes it easier for the voidspren to cross?  Like, Wyndle mentions "crossing over" several times, and how it's quite traumatic, and cost him memories/abilities.

 

Also, it seems like Ish is a liar, so we probably shouldn't put TOO much stock in what he's said to Naln.  He might have just been lying about Radiants coming back causing Desolations.

[VirtuousTraveller]

5 hours ago, Yata said:

I think that the part "without Honor to regulate it" is only about the number of Radiant Spren avaliable. If there is a risk to start a desolation if there are too much Radiant Knight. Honor would simply regulate the amount of Radiant Spren avaliable....Now He is death, and almost all his power turned into Radiant Spren, now there are too much Radiant Spren.

I'm curious about Radiant Spren and Honor's role in this process.  In one of Dalinar's visions, Honor laments that he isn't sure how humanity will survive without the Dawnshards, which are described as "being able to bind any creature, voidish or mortal."

There's something rather strange to me about Honor, a splinter of divine power, creating a system where ten individuals (Heralds) are granted ten magical artifacts (Honorblades)...

...only to have these random splinters we call spren (splinters of Adonalsium?) come along and try to mimic this "Herald-Honorblade" thing, which leads to this relationship between humans and spren we call the "Nahel Bond?"

Why do spren do this?  It's a weird, random thing, don't you think?

[Yata]

I think we know too little of the Oathpact to try to figure why he made the decision he made.

It's possible that the Spren simply fel affinity for the Herald-Honorblade and as being strongly Cognitive. They were influenced by the colletive will of mankind, they became involved in the war because of the Humanity's will to defend themself.

Just a side note: Honor didn't create the Surgebinding, his mere presence (along probably with a combination of Cultivation and/or Odium) made the System born. He simply give birth to the first Surgebinder's users through the Honorblades (I think you may compared this to the Hemalurgy, the system is there also if there are zero user of it. Then thanks to divine assis, to is gived the tool/knowledge to become a magic user of it. But the system was there long before the first pratictioner).

EDIT: After post this reply, I realized that the example would be better with Awakening. Long before the people of Nalthis discovered the Command to manipulate their Breath. There was already the Awakening as Magic System.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Yata