Full Edgedancer Reaction Thread [Edgedancer Spoilers]

[Argent he/him]

Let's not assume we know how the Nightwatcher works - or at least not base any arguments on such assumptions.

[Zalocx he/him]

There were a lot more reveals than I expected to find in a novella!

My two cents on some things other people have commented on:

I always thought the Skybreakers *WERE* the Skybreakers, so its nice to have confirmation. Most people point to the nature of the Order and Nale (which are very valid) but my biggest piece of evidence has always been the epilogue of WoR. Jasnah says "The words of the Highspren could be meaningless" when discussing how the Everstorm overrules everything she learned about the past. That always struck me as really odd. Why would you go to see the Justice spren for information about historical accounts? Why not more scholarly focused groups like the Cryptics or potentially Ivory's own people? But it all falls into place when you remember that all the bond spren we have met claimed that the Recreance was a genocide that decimated their populations and they don't remember what happened back then because all the members of their race who were sentient died. The Skybreakers never broke their oaths, the Highspren never suffered the Recreance and that is why they are the only group of Nahelspren who actually remember the past Devestations with any reliability and thus Jasnah went to them for info! 

 

Also as for the revelation that Wyndle may have ended up with Ym, put me squarely in the camp that says Ym, Stump, and Lift were/are all Edgedancers. One made shoes for urchins, they other runs an orphanage for urchins, the third IS an urchin. . . there is a distinct theme about caring for the most vulnerable and forgotten among us going on there. That doesn't mesh with what the Truthwatcher's "niche" is hinted at being due to Renarin's actions in WoR.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Zalocx
for spelling & grammar

[natc]

Would certainly suggest some surprisingly diverse morphology for Cultivationspren if that were the case, but the likelihood is also rather high now . . . perhaps they mirror what they cultivated in Shadesmar? They can't all be gardeners right?

[shadowwisp]

Szeth is back! I got so excited when he popped up. 

The afterimages are interesting....as well as his ability to find Lift in the shadows. Possible Lifesense ability? But then he would have sensed Wyndle sneak past him, unless he intentionally let him, hmmm. Of course, I could just be overthinking it; Szeth could just pay more attention to his surroundings then the other two novice Skybreakers. 

Is it just me, or does it seem like the two Skybreakers imply that Szeth can fly ("fall") again as well? It seems more like Szeth chooses not to join them more than not being able to. 

I highly suspect that he has the gravitation surge again. He would hold  Nale and the two novice Skybreakers back if he couldn't fly from place to place like they can. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by shadowwisp

[Shlee]

3 hours ago, natc said:

Would certainly suggest some surprisingly diverse morphology for Cultivationspren if that were the case, but the likelihood is also rather high now . . . perhaps they mirror what they cultivated in Shadesmar? They can't all be gardeners right?

Why is that? If Ym's spren was a Cultivation spren (which I'm not 100% convinced because Wyndle says "Did you know we were considering bonding this nice cobbler man instead of you?" but that aside...)   it was described as:

Quote

The spren had been coming more often lately—specks of light, like those from a piece of crystal suspended in a sunbeam. He did not know its type, as he had never seen one like it before.
It moved across the surface of the workbench, slinking closer. When it stopped, light crept upward from it, like small plants growing or climbing from their burrows. When it moved again, those withdrew......

It shied away, like a reflection off a mirror—translucent, really just a shimmer of light.
He withdrew his hand and waited. The spren inched forward—tentative, like a cremling creeping out of its crack after a storm. It stopped, and light grew upward from it in the shape of tiny sprouts. Such an odd sight.

and Stump's spren is described as:

Quote

"Not like a vine. Like light reflected on a wall from a mirror..."

which sound exactly the same to me. So I'd say it's safe to say that Ym and Stump have the same type of spren. IF that is the Edgedancer spren, Wyndle's appearance can easily be explained by the fact that he and Lift obviously have a different relationship, since she can touch him, so it's possible she sees him more as he appears in the cognitive, as has been postulated several other places here on the forums. I'd say that's most likely, but I'm not willing to rule out Truthwatcher spren either, since we haven't actually seen Glys yet and I think there's something weird going on there.

 

Speaking of, that was the one thing that jumped out at me. (probably silly-ly and me way overthinking, but still....)

"We watch the others. The assasin. The surgeon. The liar. The highprince."

No mention of Renarin?? Even though he's supposed to have had Glys for a lot longer than was immediately apparent. Whyyyyyy? 

 

I now have to do an entire re-read with special attention to every cremling ever mentioned!

Edit: Also, how the heck does something composed entirely of cremlings talk in any kind of normal voice? 

 

Also I'm going to jump on the Tashi = Ishar train because of the swearing.

Quote

"Tashi," a scribe whispered. "God of Gods and Binder of the World!"

I dunno about god of gods, but Binder of the World certainly makes me think Bondsmith.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Shlee

[zebobes]

I just thought of something. If Lift's request was to stay the same while the world changes around her... maybe the Nightwatcher ignored the first half of the request and heard the second. Now she changes the world around her. And one way is to transfer food from her stomach into the cognitive realm, and moving investiture into the physical realm. 

I'm not sure if I'm making sense or not...

[DSC01 he/him]

I think that Edgedancer more or less confirms that Ym was a nascent Edgedancer (and Stump is too). Stump and Ym obviously had similar spren. They don't look like Wyndle because Lift's connection to the Cognitive Realm eased his transition into the Nahel bond. Syl didn't look much like herself when she first started appearing, but Wyndle has always been the Cultivationspren version of the miniature lady that Syl becomes because he didn't have to grow back into himself. Wyndle was able to confirm that Stump's spren qualified as a radiantspren, which strongly implies to me that he was able to recognize it as the windspren to his little lady. Also, it looks like lifespren are related to Edgedancers' Plate the way windspren are to Windrunners' (assuming that very likely theory is correct).

As for Szeth, it does seem like he has Gravitation again, but I suspect that there is something unusual about his Surges. Because of Nightblood's nature, I am confident that he does grant Surges as part of a bond on Roshar, but I am less confident that they will automatically be the Skybreaker ones, just because Nalan "adopted" him. It could be, though.

[Kanrei]

9 hours ago, lookingglass said:

Also we know what Lift wanted from the Nightwatcher... Not to change. But this doesn't explain why she gets stormlight from food or that she is partially in the cognitive realm. Any ideas?

There was/is WoB that Nightwatcher didnt know how to give Lift what she asked for (not to change as we know now) and instead tried close thing.

Ok some ideas:

Nightwatcher attempt at making Lift stay same might be by putting her more in Cognitive realm and ability to metabolize stormlight from food is just side effect.
or
Making Lift Edgedancers which atm seems to me as part medics part chroniclers between Radiants who keep true story about people.

It might be too that Nightwatcher took Lift wish and instead of freezing her in specific age, thought about preserving her for as long as possible, and being Radiant probably make your life longer. That would work if you think of "not to change" as not to die and not change your form from physical to ghost.

We know for sure that Lift is changing both physically and psychically/emotionally . It might be too that there was something in specific wording of wish that Nightwatcher looked at.

Last thing - we dont know what is boon and what is curse. I assume that being made Radiant is boon, but Nightwatcher is strange so it might be curse too

[VirtuousTraveller]

Overall, I enjoyed the story.  The worldbuilding that Brandon puts into these worlds is just insane.  I've really wanted to know more about the western side of Roshar and I'm glad we get a glimpse into the culture there (especially since we may not see much more of these countries in future novels).

I enjoyed finally seeing a Herald for more than a few seconds!  I thought his change of heart was a little abrupt (after millennia of becoming the intense Darkness), but this was a novella and we could only cover so much ground in the confines of that length.

Lift...I get it, I really do.  She's immature.  She's a child.  She does her own thing and doesn't let other people tell her what to do.

She's not a favorite for me.  It's nothing against Brandon - I see what he's doing with the character ("I wish to never grow old" or "I never want to change" being twisted by the Nightwatcher into this weird prepubescent up and down business).  The character just annoys me.  "Your Pancakefulness?"  It just comes of overly silly.  But, she's consistent!  I had similar feelings toward her after WoR.

[Jsin82]

I hate the word awesomeness. It's jarring, an awful word and it's ruining all of Lift's interludes for me.  It doesn't fit in Roshar and pulls me out of the book. 

[vividox]

My thoughts before I read anyone else's:

 

Thought it started off a little slow (I think reading something entirely in Lift-prose is just kind of a strange departure from Sanderson's usual stuff), but once it picked up it REALLY pulled me in. Really enjoyed the character development in Lift, Wyndle, and Nale, and this has me absolutely SALIVATING for Oathbreaker. Also loved the too-short appearance of Szeth and Nightblood.

Edited November 23, 2016 by vividox

[vividox]

1 hour ago, Jsin82 said:

I hate the word awesomeness. It's jarring, an awful word and it's ruining all of Lift's interludes for me.  It doesn't fit in Roshar and pulls me out of the book. 

Would you prefer Pancakefullness?

[Kanrei]

1 hour ago, winter devotion said:

I think I'm probably the only one who actually loves how silly Lift is while still being, well, awesome? She can be serious and coolheaded, but she doesn't ever let go of her innate Awesomeness. The Your Pancakefulness made me laugh out loud and it's my third favorite bit-- besides the climatic hugging and the Shardfork, of course. 

You are not only one

I loved how Sanderson made Lift as human and way away from being perfect.
That she can fail using her powers, still long way before.she learn how to use them properly. Its so normal, like when she was trying fast sliding and keep falling, so not in style of book hero and I rly liked it.

At the same time its little girl who is trying to do some good. Even if she is often childish and silly, there are glimpses of hurt, of loneliness, which make it a lot more then only silly story of girl who make others call her Your Pancekefullness.

[Zea mays]

So they do have forks on Roshar. Has to be awkward for a proper Alethi lighteyed lady. 

[thejopen27 he/him]

A couple things;

I think that not all Radiant orders would have strictly defined ranks like the Skybreakers. It doesn't surprise me that law and order Radiants have internal Law and Order. While I think the Lightweavers would be unlikely to have any formal structure at all.

I think the orders that Broke their oaths did so altruistically. I think the Windrunners, Bondsmiths, Dustbringers,Edgedancers, etc. would be unlikely to all break their oaths at the same time unless it was a conscious choice in order to help humanity or bc Ishar told them to to prevent a desolation or something else. I think the other orders sacrificed themselves and broke their own bonds to stop some greater evil.

We've now seen three people who have started becoming Truthwatchers. I think Stump has the same Spren as Ym and Renarin. Of the three Renarin doesn't seem to fit with the other two. Both Ym and the Stump are very altruistic and spent their time seeing those no one else saw and healing the poor and the forgotten embodying the Giving part of the Truthwatchers, while Renarin seems to fit in more with the Learned part. I think Gavilar and Dalinar were both on the way to being bondsmiths as well as one of the people killed by the silent gatherers.

I am not surprised that Spren who embody similar attributes would be attracted to the same people. Dalinar could have easily been a Windrunner and if Kaladin had had a better experience with authority figures he could have been a Skybreaker. The Cultivation Spren almost chose Ym, but he must have been just a bit more of a Truthwatcher. 

Of all the Spren, the Truthwatcher spren (Wisdomspren? Lightspren? Enlightenmentspren?) we have seen trying to bond the most. Infact it's the only Spren that we have seen with more that one bond at a time other than the Highspren, but I think something fishy is going on there,but that may not mean anything. We have yet to see Dustbringers, Willshapers, or Stonewards. (I think Rsyn will be either a Willshaper or a Stoneward though.)

I guessed that the Edgedancer Spren would be Cultivationspren, as Edgedancers (or maybe the Truthwatchers, but the Edgedancers were more associated with Plants) seemed the most like Cultivation, just like the Windrunners (and their Honorspren) and the Bondsmiths seem the most like Honor.

I think Szeth might be on a path of redemption but he may not be on his way to being a Skybreaker, but instead another order, maybe the Dustbringers?

All the Heralds are broken or breaking down mentally and it seems to have recently gotten worse, and I think Ishar may have flat out betrayed the others. Jezrien is a drunk beggar, Shallash goes around destroying art, Nalan is murdering children for minor offenses, one of them (I think Ishar) is probably the God-king of Tukar, is the Ardent helping Taravangian one of the Heralds associated with knowledge or healing? Taln (because he never broke his oath) may be the only one who isn't breaking down, he's just mad for a different reason entirely.

Dysian Aimians are creepy. I think Siah Aimians are more beings that exist partially in the cognitive, while Dysian Aimians are Hive organisms. Both from Aimia, both weird, both practically immortal, not related to each other directly. Different things that have similar results. Like an orca and a shark. 

Lift is broken like all the other Radiants. 

Is it possible that Nalan didn't retrieve his blade but has actually bonded a Highspren to prevent another desolation by having his honorblade and it was another Herald who retrieved his or her blade (again, maybe Ishar)?

Nalan implied that what caused the desolations was something creating a link between Roshar and Braise that allowed the Voidspren to cross. Did Chriss actually go to Braise which seems to be inhabited entirely by Voidspren? Seems horrible. 

I think Szeth has a light aura like the Awakeners of Nalthis. I think this is obviously related to Nightblood.

I see why Brandon changed how Szeth dies in WoR so that it wasn't a shard weapon that killed him. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by thejopen27

[Pagerunner he/him]

6 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

We've now seen three people who have started becoming Truthwatchers. I think Stump has the same Spren as Ym and Renarin. Of the three Renarin doesn't seem to fit with the other two. Both Ym and the Stump are very altruistic and spent their time seeing those no one else saw and healing the poor and the forgotten embodying the Giving part of the Truthwatchers, while Renarin seems to fit in more with the Learned part.

I'll make the argument that Stump and Ym are actually Edgedancers. They are both following the Edgedancer's second oath, remembering those who are forgotten, specifically orphans and urchins. Wyndle was the first sent, but other cultivationspren were sent later, to other candidates.

Spren look very different in Shadesmar than they do in the Physical Realm - just look at Pattern. Cryptics manifest in Shadesmar as symbol-heads, but look very different in the Physical Realm. Ym's spren is described with elements of both; the specks of light, but it moved like a growing plant. The only other spren we've seen in both realms is Ivory, and we never really got a good depiction of him in the Physical, but at the very least there was a size difference.

[thejopen27 he/him]

Renarin's Spren is also desribed as dancing light. I think Renarin is embodying one part of Truthwatchers while Ym and Stump were embodying the other Learned v. Giving. They both have access to Progression. Also Ym and Stump both acted passively, like Renarin while Edgedancers seem more active. We don't actually know that much about Renarin's personality. I am sticking with Ym and Stump as Truthwatchers. I'd put money on it. And in the end, the Cultivationspren didn't pick Ym, they picked Lift because she was blessed by Cultivation. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by thejopen27
clarity

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

7 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

Renarin's Spren is also desribed as dancing light.

Where is this from? Brandon specifically refuses to answer what Glys looks like.

[thejopen27 he/him]

10 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

Where is this from? Brandon specifically refuses to answer what Glys looks like.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but when he opens the box, isn't their shimering light seen? 

Anyways, Both Ym's spren and Glys are shy but have to hide because they can't be invisible, while Wyndel is definately invisible. Wyndel is also pretty talkative and forward, just like Lift, while all the Truthwatchers we've seen have been very shy, introspective, or in Stump's case, curt. I will bet you that Lift is the only Edgedancer we've seen thus far. Also Wyndel seemed to react when Stump described her spren as if he was disappointed but not surprised to see it wasn't a Cultivationspren.

Edited November 23, 2016 by thejopen27

[thejopen27 he/him]

I thought at first that the Captain of the gate was going to turn out to be the Radiant, possibly a Dustbringer.

[kenod]

59 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

I thought at first that the Captain of the gate was going to turn out to be the Radiant, possibly a Dustbringer.

I thought a Skybreaker.

[DSC01 he/him]

I think Nalan's partial explanation of why he has been hunting down Surgebinders gives us some clues to the circumstances surrounding the Recreance. When Dalinar has visions of the Knights Radiant, it seemed like at least some of them came after the last Desolation, but they were still fighting destructive creatures that we no longer see on Roshar. It seems possible that these beings are Splinters of some variety (no doubt from Braize), who were imitating the example of radiantspren and using some type of bonding to move into the Physical Realm on Roshar. If so, the Recreance was an attempt (apparently successful) at stopping that from happening anymore. Somehow, the Skybreakers' regimented, rule-based approach to bonding their spren does not provide the same opportunity for the evil spren (or whatever they are), so they stuck around and changed their Orders' mission to stopping the Radiants from reappearing, rather than directly protecting the people of Roshar. I suspect that the Recreance was twofold: 1) A large portion--but not all--of the Radiants living at the time broke their Bonds, and 2) The Skybreakers hunted down the remaining Knights who remained faithful (that would be the "great subterfuge").

[Kanrei]

14 hours ago, DSC01 said:

As for Szeth, it does seem like he has Gravitation again, but I suspect that there is something unusual about his Surges. Because of Nightblood's nature, I am confident that he does grant Surges as part of a bond on Roshar, but I am less confident that they will automatically be the Skybreaker ones, just because Nalan "adopted" him. It could be, though.

Which part suggest that Szeth has Surge of Gravitation? When two Skybreakers fly to Orphanage Szeth just stay behind. Except strange afterimage he is just normal crazy ex assassin in Edgedancer.

I think there was WoB that Nightblood dont grant surges (im not 100% sure) and other WoB about if Nightblood will use Stormlight instead of Breath which indirectly suggested that Nightblood wont grant ability to suck in Stormlight --> Sanderson there said that Szeth shouldnt use Nightblood for now as he cant suck in Stormlight.

Ability to suck in Stormlight is I think first thing granted by forming bond, so if Nightblood was able of Nahel bond, Szeth should be able to suck in stormlight. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Kanrei

[Glamdring804]

AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAAAAHHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

She did it! She summoned a Shardfork! My life is complete!

[DSC01 he/him]

@Kanrei The quote I found is, "Nightblood can feed off Stormlight, but Szeth can't draw in Stormlight right now. So Szeth better not draw that sword, for a while at least." The "for a while at least" part suggests that it will be fine at some point.

There's another quote, "Nightblood is a very unique kind of Shardblade, but IS a Shardblade," and one features of Shardblades is that they can be bonded. Assuming that the process is more like bonding a dead Blade than a live spren, then it would simply take some time (explaining that "for a while"). He also does partially draw Nightblood, which would likely be pretty damaging to him if he wasn't past that point.

As for the Surges, well, the other Skybreakers certainly seem to assume that Szeth can join them. That doesn't prove anything, necessarily, but Szeth's response to them indicates pretty clearly that he is choosing not to do so because he doesn't wish to be in the Everstorm again. There's nothing definitive there, but the circumstantial evidence very strongly points to him having access to, if not Gravitation, then something like it. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by DSC01