Why Scadrian magic users are pretty rusted

[Oversleep]

After going through the history of Scadrial it struck me how hard the pool of Allomantic and Feruchemical genes had it. See:

Starting point is the pre-Final Empire era or Classic Scadrial times. Before the Deepness. Allomancy is unknown and the only Allomancers are Mistings. Snapping threshold is mist-snapping hard.
Feruchemy is in its highest point with Terris people keeping together making the bloodlines concentrated.

Then Rashek Ascends. Allomancers are created by introducting lerasium to the population. Lerasiumborns are the strongest Allomancers ever alive exluding Rashek.
Feruchemy has it far worse - all Feruchemists are turned into another species (the only one not turned, Kwaan, is hunted down and killed). The only Feruchemical genes left are those dormant in the rest of the Terris population.

Final Empire. Allomancy is kept within noble bloodlines which helps to its strength. However, Allomancy by itself is diminishing in power. Additionaly skaa Allomancers are being hunted. The surviving Feruchemical genes are being bred out of the Terris population for about 900 years.

Collapse of the Final Empire. House War and efforts of Kelsier's crew kill Allomancers. War that follows TLR's death kills many more.

Ruin's rampage. Population decreases due to famine, eruptions of volcanoes and the rest of the stuff Ruin unleashed upon the Scadrial. Addtionaly Allomancers either die in wars or by being spiked by Ruin's Inquisitors. Additionaly those with weak Allomantic genes are mist-snappen and largely killed in the battles.
All (or almost all) surviving Feruchemists are killed in Inquisitors' attack on Synod or later by Hemalurgy. The only survivors are the non-Feruchemist Terris refugees. Once again only dormant genes survive.

Katacendre bottleneck: The only people who survive are those which hid in the TLR's storage cases. Allomancy gets a very minor boost by turning Spook into the last Mistborn of reduced power and mistfallen survivors (since mists actively added Investiture).

All in all it does not look well. From passing-on-genes point of view, Feruchemists have been all killed twice (with dormant genes surviving) and between those two Feruchemy genocides there's been a breeding out program in effect for about 900 years. Allomancy by default is decreasing in power (although it will hit a saturation point and will stop) and majority of strong genes have been killed; weak genes also largely killed.

It's a little depressing, truth be told.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Oversleep

[Blightsong]

Brandon has said that by era 2 Allomancy has pretty much gotten as weak as it's gonna get.

[Spoolofwhool]

Don't forget that the feruchemy gene takes another hit when it starts mixing with the allomancy gene, resulting in ferrings instead of full feruchemists. 

Good thing the Terris Elders are working to consolidate the feruchemy gene so it won't be completely doomed. Also, Terris is still the dominant source of feruchemy and they're still a closed culture so it's not really going to weaken further past that I think. 

[DeadFencer]

Don't forget that sine Feruchemy is a dominant gene, it will become more common as the population recovers from the death of most feruchemists pre-Catacendre. The number of allomancers should rise too, as twice as many metals are commonly known compared to Final Empire times, and Snapping is considerably easier. Also I recall reading somewhere that Harmony 'froze' the level of allomantic power at the level Vin was at, so it can't weaken any further.

[asterion137]

now that we have hemalurgy and medallions the loss of investiture should stop

[Yata]

4 hours ago, SafestPear said:

The number of allomancers should rise too, as twice as many metals are commonly known compared to Final Empire times

I actually don't understand this point....there is no difference in this. There was Cadmius, Bendalloy, Chromium and Nicrosil Misting also in the Final Empire, they simply don't know to be Allomancer...but they actualy were and they reproduced spreading the right genes.

 

4 hours ago, SafestPear said:

Also I recall reading somewhere that Harmony 'froze' the level of allomantic power at the level Vin was at, so it can't weaken any further.

I don't remember nothing like that, I know that much of Vin's power isn't about raw power but as her ability to use it very efficiently...But I find really hard to believe that every allomancer in the Era 2 are as strong as (or stronger) than Vin (in raw power)

[Eki]

6 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Don't forget that the feruchemy gene takes another hit when it starts mixing with the allomancy gene, resulting in ferrings instead of full feruchemists. 

I don't think this affects the genes, actually. It will make the magic weaker over all, but the actual genes might be unaffected. Kind of like how people are saying red hair is going extinct because fewer and fewer people have red hair. That's not true - assuming people with red hair genes get about as many children as others, the percentage of red hair genes will stay the same, just more diluted, and paired with dominant genes more often.

This assumes the set of Feruchemy genes are actually physical genes, or that the "spiritual genes" work similarly to real ones, which we don't know, of course.

How cross breeding with the South will work though, that will be interesting. Logically that should spread the genes out more over a larger population. But on the other hand, magic is weird.

[Oversleep]

4 hours ago, asterion137 said:

now that we have hemalurgy and medallions the loss of investiture should stop

This does have nothing to do with the pool of genes. Hemalurgical adding of Investiture is not inherited. Medallions only add Investiture temporarily.

[Yata]

@Ekiwhat I wanted to say is that if Feruchemy and Allomancy genes interference with one another....The F-Gene may suppress the ability of someone who otherwise will be snapped as Allomancer

There are the Twinborns, where the two genes actualy create a synergy but they are quite an anomaly to the standard outcome.

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, Eki said:

I don't think this affects the genes, actually. It will make the magic weaker over all, but the actual genes might be unaffected. Kind of like how people are saying red hair is going extinct because fewer and fewer people have red hair. That's not true - assuming people with red hair genes get about as many children as others, the percentage of red hair genes will stay the same, just more diluted, and paired with dominant genes more often.

This assumes the set of Feruchemy genes are actually physical genes, or that the "spiritual genes" work similarly to real ones, which we don't know, of course.

How cross breeding with the South will work though, that will be interesting. Logically that should spread the genes out more over a larger population. But on the other hand, magic is weird.

WoB that the allomantic gene is actually weakening the feruchemical gene. 

Quote

WETLANDERNW

Why do the Twinborn in Alloy of Law have only one feruchemical power, when all previous feruchemists, in spite of breeding programs, could use all the metals? (from travyl) Or were Ferrings always part of the system and we just didn't meet them in Mistborn? (my addition)

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Ferrings are a new development since Mistborn, as the Feruchemists have been interbreeding with the Allomancers. Basically, the Allomancy genes interfere with the Feruchemistry genes, breaking it down and creating the limitations we see in Alloy of Law. (His response to this was really fun—he found it a very perceptive question, and enjoyed talking about it. I wish I'd had my recorder handy so I could give you the full transcript instead of the boiled-down version.

It's probably a spiritual thing, along with the fact that they're genes for different manifestations of investiture.

 

5 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Hemalurgical adding of Investiture is not inherited.

Hemalurgically gained powers can be inherited, just with a far lower chance than normal ones.

Quote

QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

Would Inqusitors’s kids have Allomancy?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Not usually. It happens sometimes, but not usually.

[Brandon] then mentioned a little about sDNA, but that it's not inherited as much as it is when it's natural

[Source]

 

Edited October 15, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Oversleep]

15 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Hemalurgically gained powers can be inherited, just with a far lower chance than normal ones.

Hmm... I did some digging:

Quote

Question

If you have a series of inquisitors, like a family of inquisitors having children for generations over...

Brandon Sanderson

Would the Hemalurgy influence the sDNA of the children? Is that what you are asking? That is a hypothesis that has merit in the way the magic system works (grin). It is not a supposition to be discarded out of hand.
source

Quote

Question

Youve spoken before how DNA exists on multiple different levels in your magic systems. I hear somewhere that Hemalurgy actually splices something into your DNA - so what does that imply for inheritability?

Brandon Sanderson

It is not inheritable.
source

The second one is from the Shadows Of Self signing so it's quite recently... *Scratches head*

[Shadeshadow227]

12 hours ago, SafestPear said:

Also I recall reading somewhere that Harmony 'froze' the level of allomantic power at the level Vin was at, so it can't weaken any further.

Really? Where did you read that?

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, Oversleep said:

Hmm... I did some digging:

The second one is from the Shadows Of Self signing so it's quite recently... *Scratches head*

My WoB comes between your first WoB and your second WoB. This sounds like something he isn't completely set on so he's wavering between. Since the first two point towards inheritable and the last one points towards not, I think the best case would be to go with not-inheritable. Makes a bit of sense then, that way you can't take an Augur Bloodmaker twinborn and use them to infinitely augment the population's genetics with allomancy and feruchemy.

 

This is an aside, from another topic I know there was a discussion about, but I can't remember where it was, so if someone could, that would be great. It was about whether pewter can spike gold feruchemy like MAG said. There's a WoB on Theoryland that says it does. 

[Oversleep]

19 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

My WoB comes between your first WoB and your second WoB. This sounds like something he isn't completely set on so he's wavering between. Since the first two point towards inheritable and the last one points towards not, I think the best case would be to go with not-inheritable.

Your WoB says "not usually", mine say "it's theory not to be discarded" and straight up "no". I guess we could get another clarification but I'm pretty sure it's settled on "not inheritable".

19 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

This is an aside, from another topic I know there was a discussion about, but I can't remember where it was, so if someone could, that would be great. It was about whether pewter can spike gold feruchemy like MAG said. There's a WoB on Theoryland that says it does.

Do you mean that topic? I'm not sure since I've got that WoB in the first post.

 

Edited October 15, 2016 by Oversleep

[Spoolofwhool]

12 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Your WoB says "not usually", mine say "it's theory not to be discarded" and straight up "no". I guess we could get another clarification but I'm pretty sure it's settled on "not inheritable".

Do you mean that topic? I'm not sure since I've got that WoB in the first post.

Didn't see that WoB. Thanks. 

[Eki]

 

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

WoB that the allomantic gene is actually weakening the feruchemical gene. 

Ah, ok! I'm still not convinced it's about s-genotypes rather than s-phenotypes without a direct transcription, but...

[cometaryorbit]

2 hours ago, Eki said:

 

Ah, ok! I'm still not convinced it's about s-genotypes rather than s-phenotypes without a direct transcription, but...

I think it is the phenotypes. "Interfere with" to me implies that the Feruchemy genes are still there but their action is impaired, not that they are actually being destroyed.

[Savanorn]

Regarding the inquisitors, it seems like something Brandon weighed up for a while and then settled on a no. 

This said. It is worth noting that inquisitors are usually mistborn or mistings regardless, so their kids being allomancers would be possible. Without a full transcript I'd be wary of specific stuff with sDNA particulars. 

Past that...mreemm...

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think it is the phenotypes. "Interfere with" to me implies that the Feruchemy genes are still there but their action is impaired, not that they are actually being destroyed.

Mmmmm. 

This makes a lot of sense. 

It would also imply that twinborn and ferrings both could result in new feruchemists. 

I suppose it's worth noting that the "natural" form of allomancers is the misting whilst the natural form of feruborn appear to be full feruchemist. 

It makes sense the mixing of the genes would change expression. 

This makes me think; were there ever actually any other Fullborn than the Lord Ruler? (Terminology might need an update)

[Eki]

14 minutes ago, Savanorn said:

This makes me think; were there ever actually any other Fullborn than the Lord Ruler? (Terminology might need an update)

Probably not, unless things hinted at in BoM are true...

The only reason TLR could become Fullborn is because he changed his own spiritweb during his Ascension - it's impossible to be born both. They kind of occupy the same "place" in the spiritweb naturally. Probably for the same reason that Allomancy "interferes" with Feruchemy. But if you actually change your spiritweb you can get around that, like TLR did. Lerasium would probably work too.

That said, any earlier Hero of Ages could possibly have done the same thing. I don't think we know for sure if the Well was used before. However, if a previous Hero made themselves a Fullborn, and then got children, it would have had effects in the (s-)gene pool in Alendi's time, I think. So, possible, but I doubt it.

[ShadowLord_Lith]

Since this has turned into a discussion on genetics, what would happen if the non-terris started a breeding program for allomancy? It would probably become more common, but that aside, could it strengthen the allomancy gene to the point where, eventually, a mistborn was produced? Or would there be some other effect?

[Savanorn]

31 minutes ago, Eki said:

Probably not, unless things hinted at in BoM are true...

The only reason TLR could become Fullborn is because he changed his own spiritweb during his Ascension - it's impossible to be born both. They kind of occupy the same "place" in the spiritweb naturally. Probably for the same reason that Allomancy "interferes" with Feruchemy. But if you actually change your spiritweb you can get around that, like TLR did. Lerasium would probably work too.

That said, any earlier Hero of Ages could possibly have done the same thing. I don't think we know for sure if the Well was used before. However, if a previous Hero made themselves a Fullborn, and then got children, it would have had effects in the (s-)gene pool in Alendi's time, I think. So, possible, but I doubt it.

Hmmm. You've quite accurately divined my concerns.

That's why I said we might need to change the terminology. Because it seems to be no one actually can be born that way. 

Something like ...Twintotal, but less stupid.

I guess Fullborn could be kind of ironic...

Because even if you inherited both genes you'd almost have to end up Twinborn, unless you could become a mistborn who also was a ferring. 

 

2 minutes ago, ShadowLord_Lith said:

Since this has turned into a discussion on genetics, what would happen if the non-terris started a breeding program for allomancy? It would probably become more common, but that aside, could it strengthen the allomancy gene to the point where, eventually, a mistborn was produced? Or would there be some other effect?

I thought this was what the Set were thinking of doing? 

It'd be possible, I'd think. 

[cometaryorbit]

6 hours ago, Eki said:

The only reason TLR could become Fullborn is because he changed his own spiritweb during his Ascension - it's impossible to be born both.

I don't think it's outright impossible. TLR knew a lot about the Metallic Arts, and he thought it was possible - that's why he suppressed Feruchemy and forbade noble-skaa intermarriage. They don't happen in the AoL era, but the genes are pretty weakened by then. If Lerasium Mistborn had been marrying Full Feruchemists, with the Mistwraith-transformation never having happened...

[Yata]

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think it's outright impossible. TLR knew a lot about the Metallic Arts, and he thought it was possible - that's why he suppressed Feruchemy and forbade noble-skaa intermarriage. They don't happen in the AoL era, but the genes are pretty weakened by then. If Lerasium Mistborn had been marrying Full Feruchemists, with the Mistwraith-transformation never having happened...

A simply public Feruchemist would mined Rashek's myth....A single Twinborn would destroy it (also if He wan't a Compounder) because this would explicit states "ei Guys, Feruchemy and Allomancy may be hosted by the same guy".

[Kingsdaughter613]

He'd still be the only Fullborn though, so he would have just needed to alter the myth slightly. It wouldn't have been destroyed. And it wasn't like those other twinborn would be a threat.

I think a natural fullborn is possible, just highly improbable. More likely if Rashek or the Sovreign had any children, but possible regardless.  Whether or not it will ever happen though... Of course, it still isn't possible without hacking the system at least once (to create Mistborn) possibly twice (where DID Feruchemy come from?) so I don't know if natural is the word for it.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think a natural fullborn is possible, just highly improbable. More likely if Rashek or the Sovreign had any children, but possible regardless.  Whether or not it will ever happen though... Of course, it still isn't possible without hacking the system at least once (to create Mistborn) possibly twice (where DID Feruchemy come from?) so I don't know if natural is the word for it.

I don't think so. As Brandon has stated, the genes for feruchemy, at least, are deteriorated by the genes of allomancy, with possible vice-versa. The only way someone could be a natural fullborn would be if you someone prevented the deterioration, which at that point it wouldn't be considered natural.  

Feruchemy was naturally implemented into the Scandrians at the beginning of the world, like allomancy. Those who used it probably gathered together to become the Terris people, which is why is wasn't seem much outside of the Terris.