How does the Final Empire compare to historical empires?

[asterion137]

During TLR's conquests (beginning of his reign), could he have conquered these historical empires in these specific time periods? (TLR will not be fighting actively)

-Persia (Xerxes I)

-Hellenistic Empire (Alexander the Great)

-Roman Empire (Emperor Hadrian)

-Han Dynasty (Emperor Wudi)

-Mongol Empire(Genghis Khan)

Could TLR 50 years before the events of mistborn with 10 years of planning and preparation conquer these european nations?(TLR will be fighting actively along with his inquisitors, kandra, and nobility)

-Britain (Victorian Era)

-Napoleonic France

Each historical empire will start with its eastern edge grafted onto the coast of the farmost dominance (england will remain an island).

[RacketLauncher]

4 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

During TLR's conquests (beginning of his reign), could he have conquered these historical empires in these specific time periods? (TLR will not be fighting actively)

-Persia (Xerxes I)

We have a historical instance of ancient persia facing veteran, battle-hardened heavy infantry armies. And there are perhaps seven times more koloss than there were Macedonian hoplites.

-Hellenistic Empire (Alexander the Great)

Numbers should give TFE this one.

-Roman Empire (Emperor Hadrian)

Enraged koloss should smash the Roman shield walls easily. Heavy javelins and roman "artillery" should make this one tough, but TFE still has a numbers advantage and the bulk of the army will be koloss.

-Han Dynasty (Emperor Wudi)

If they don't have to go through the Great Wall or anything TFE will win this one too. The han have the numbers here, but koloss armies might rout them by fear factor alone. Chinese peasant conscripts won't have the best morale facing an army of monsters.

-Mongol Empire(Genghis Khan)

Mongols win. Koloss may be able to run through "hailstorms of arrows", but the Mongols could just outrun the koloss until they calm down and then smash them with heavy cavalry. It won't be easy, and the Mongols will lose the first few battles, but they should win in the end.

Could TLR 50 years before the events of mistborn with 10 years of planning and preparation conquer these european nations?(TLR will be fighting actively along with his inquisitors, kandra, and nobility)

-Britain (Victorian Era)

TFE should win this one too. Rifles won't rout koloss, and once the koloss get close it's over. That said, TFE will take heavy casualties and the brits won't go down easy. And they probably won't even land in England unless some Inquisitors, kandra, and mistborn sabotage the English navy beforehand somehow.

-Napoleonic France

This is close because TFE outnumbers them by a lot (maybe even three to one). With the koloss tanking, most of the human soldiers might make it to the French lines, but even then it's no sure thing. In melee combat TFE could have a chance, especially with powerful soothers and rioters trying to hold the lines and rout the enemy. My bet is Napoleon pulls out the win though.

Each historical empire will start with its eastern edge grafted onto the coast of the farmost dominance (england will remain an island).

 

[The One Who Connects]

12 hours ago, asterion137 said:

During TLR's conquests (beginning of his reign), could he have conquered these historical empires in these specific time periods? (TLR will not be fighting actively)

-Persia (Xerxes I) Don't know enough about Persian empire of the time to say. I know Persia had trouble with the Macedonians, but where that was in relation to Xerxes, I don't know.

-Hellenistic Empire (Alexander the Great) I'm curious how Koloss would fare against the Sarissa. I see heavy Koloss casualties early on, and the Macedonian army was rather well trained.

-Roman Empire (Emperor Hadrian) Rome lasted 1000 years, TFE lasted 1000 years.. I think this would be a fairly even match, but Rome got pretty adaptable over time. On the same note as before, the Koloss will take a beating from siege artillery before they hit the army itself, giving Rome some breathing room here and there

Quote

The Roman military readily adopted types of arms and armour that were effectively used against them by their enemies. Initially Roman troops were armed after Greek and Etruscan models, using large oval shields and long pikes. On encountering the Celts they adopted much Celtic equipment and again later adopted items such as the gladius from Iberian peoples. Later in Rome's history, it adopted practices such as arming its cavalry with bows in the Parthian style, and even experimented briefly with niche weaponry such as elephants and camel-troops.  Should I even source Wikipedia? I could see anti-Koloss strategies showing up if they survive enough battles, then it goes back to numbers and tactics.

-Han Dynasty (Emperor Wudi) I think China has the numbers here (like normal). Eastern Han Dynasty was a mostly volunteer army, so they did sign up to fight.. Might come down to who has better trained soldiers if the Koloss can be beaten.

-Mongol Empire(Genghis Khan) The Mongol Horde may have the advantage in speed (do horses outrun Koloss?) and cavalry against normal soldiers usually goes badly for the soldiers. (Except Macedonia, but that's another story)

Could TLR 50 years before the events of mistborn with 10 years of planning and preparation conquer these european nations?(TLR will be fighting actively along with his inquisitors, kandra, and nobility) Allomancy, and TLR himself could really tip the scales, so I'm ignoring those.

-Britain (Victorian Era) The Navy will be the biggest issue. Once on land, it'll be close at times. I really feel like this depends on whether ships carrying the Koloss get sunk or not, soldier to soldier I'd give it to the Brits.

-Napoleonic France At its height: 680,000 men. Against TLR's roughly a million... I really don't know on this one.

Each historical empire will start with its eastern edge grafted onto the coast of the farmost dominance (england will remain an island).

 

[Argel]

How do Koloss, Kandra, and Inquisitors not guarantee a victory for TLR??

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, Argel said:

How do Koloss, Kandra, and Inquisitors not guarantee a victory for TLR??

That's why I was ignoring the Kandra/Inquisitors to make it seem more balanced. Koloss can be beaten with the right tactics. The other 2, not so much

[Djarskublar]

Kandra alone win it for TFE. Every time. Just assassinate the ruler or some high ranked officers. If you can get the ruler, it's basically over. If you get some officers (generals) then you can give bad orders and win.

Even if we restrict the inquisitors to mostly brass/zinc they still do tons of damage.

I don't see the koloss losing to any army that doesn't have large shotguns and cannons.

The Romans or Macedonians probably have the best chance of the older armies. A phalanx would perform modestly well against koloss, but the Romans would need to figure out something fast.

[goody153]

Quote

Could TLR 50 years before the events of mistborn with 10 years of planning and preparation conquer these european nations?(TLR will be fighting actively along with his inquisitors, kandra, and nobility)

I bet Rashek alone could murder those kingdoms slowly but he will eventually with feruchemy, godtier allomancy + compounding. His Soothing alone would probably make an entire army lose hope whenever he's around.

Koloss might be really difficult to beat, i mean the smallest are like 6 ft with really huge strength/speed. And the biggest factor is that they don't feel fear. It's like a fearless barbarians that break gates without siege stuff and all are around 6-12 ft.  also they swing like this oversized sword that may resemble a great sword.

I think you may need actual army with guns and cannons to work well against them. Coinshots and mistborn spraying stuff isn't really effective against them that much.

[The One Who Connects]

I think the biggest issue with beating an army of Koloss is that people are overestimating how many TLR had. The giant army in HoA was inflated by Ruin controlled Inquisitors "conscripting" the outer dominance's.

Elend managed to take.. 30,000 or so? It's still a big number, but nothing insurmountable, especially if you can slow them down a little with long spears/ballista. Would it be a sure thing, no. But it's not a lost cause, especially when the blood fury dies down

20 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

I don't see the koloss losing to any army that doesn't have large shotguns and cannons.

On the subject of needing higher tier equipment, Koloss are still vulnerable to things like a shot to the heart/brain right? That fact alone could be a game changer for the armies with strong ranged weapons

[DrakeMarshall]

The Final Empire's normal, non-supernatural forces are much weaker than most all of the ones you listed.

However. Not counting the Lord Ruler himself, the final empire has koloss, inquisitors, kandra, and allomancers. Thugs and koloss are both absurd tactical advantages. Kandra are a type of spy that none of these societies would reasonably be able to protect against. And the steel inquisitors could frankly probably just walk up to the rulers of any of these countries and murder them, terrifying the populace and throwing the nations into utter chaos

Most historical societies would quickly fall to the Final Empire unless they knew exactly what to expect. I agree that the Mongols have the best chance here, but even they do not have an assured victory by any means (under genghis khan they were strong in great part due to their unity, and kandra and inquisitors are great at undermining unity so the Final Empire might well pull through).

Modern society, of coarse, would destroy the final empire. With utmost ease. But most of the developments that would let us do that are quite recent, historically speaking. The Final Empire was more powerful than most of our civilizations in human history I think.

 

Oh also it sort of matters who is attacking or defending. The Romans would have an advantage if the Final Empire was actually invading them I think. As for if these empires were attacking the final empire... Well at that point the Lord Ruler might get involved and it would be over.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[Magestar]

I think that, if we were to do this, it would have to be on an advancement, numbers, and starts, basis.  We could include Koloss, and maybe even Kandra, but Inquisitors and Allomancers would have to be out.

If I had to put money on one of the Ancient Civs, I'd put it on Genghis Khan.  I've always been a huge fan of his, and I think he could probably do it.  Of course, he was hugely fascinated by mystics/magic, and was very superstitious, so TLR could probably just strut his stuff and ally with Genghis.  

As far as the two more modern Civs, I think England has the best chance.  TLR never really did any Naval Combat, so even with Kandra and Allomancers, England should be able to stop the problem even before it reaches land.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Magestar

[Kingsdaughter613]

Until someone gets the bright idea of pulling nails out of the hulls. Modern ships are even worse off. Unless we are building EVERYTHING out of aluminum or plastic.

The biggest problem is actually the gunpowder. Not because the French or Brits are shooting, but because as soon as the Scadrians get ahold of some the Final Empire will probably start having internal issues. TLR suppressed gunpowder; TFE actually had the skill to use it once they found it.

So the Final Empire loses to any gunpowder wielding force due to internal strife upsetting its ability to fight. Either that, or Rashek only sends the Kandra and Inquisitors. 

[cometaryorbit]

Most of the ancient empires will lose to koloss, even without the Allomancers and Inquisitors getting involved. The Mongols should do very well against koloss though, given their horse archery focus: range and extreme mobility. Coinshots would be a huge problem for them though.

 

Koloss aren't going to be much use against 19th century armies - they're tougher than humans, but not that tough. Massed gunfire will kill them quite effectively, and they have no ranged capability. And artillery will just splatter them. Coinshots are going to be very effective, but the Victorian British Empire is big enough they'll figure out bullets don't work before they're conquered, and they'll probably figure something else out. (Incendiaries, probably. If they figure out it's specifically metal, maybe ceramic bullets.)

Inquisitors would be a major problem, but if they've figured out how to deal with Coinshots and can avoid panicking they might be able to do it - at terrible losses, but there are only a couple of dozen Inquisitors.

Also, the Final Empire wouldn't have the naval capacity to compete at all. Their ships would be wooden sailing ships, and probably pretty awful ones given that the Final Empire's sea area is pretty small; for most of the Victorian era the British would have ironclads.

The winning strategy for TLR would be either subversion by kandra or TLR himself wading in. It's very unlikely they could kill TLR; it's probably technically possible (I'm not sure even gold compounding would save him if he were literally blown to bits) but he's got too many powers to be put into that situation.

[Jondesu]

6 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Until someone gets the bright idea of pulling nails out of the hulls. Modern ships are even worse off. Unless we are building EVERYTHING out of aluminum or plastic.

Actually, I doubt that would make as much difference as you think (for modern ships).  Yes, they're mostly metal, but at the same time, it's far too much metal for an Allomancer to really effect.  They can't push more than they weigh or can anchor, and if they tried to anchor themselves on their own ship and push or pull, they'd just move both ships, until they're crushed or ripped apart by the forces (assuming we're talking about Mistings, and even a Mistborn with Duralumin would have trouble having much of an effect).

Edited October 21, 2016 by Jondesu

[Kingsdaughter613]

Depends on a lot of factors (a joint push, finding stress points, how many are steel/iron savants.) But I was really thinking of how vulnerable the computers would be to even slight push and pulls. And then there is wiring too. Plus the ships are not made of one metal piece but many small pieces. A savant could attack a small but essential piece of metal on the hull. Or use coin shots to mimic torpedoes with large chunks of metal.

[cometaryorbit]

It occurs to me I might have underestimated the Romans vs. koloss. From HOA, apparently they falter when humans stand determinedly against them - the Roman legions might be disciplined enough to get that effect. The real question IMO is whether shields could block koloss swords, or if the soldier's arm would just break under the force of the strike.

We might be overestimating koloss in general. Elend, before he gets allomancy, kills one with a knife (a small one, granted). And they don't use armor or shields. Despite the thick layers of muscle, all but the largest koloss will probably be easier to kill than a Roman legionary in armor and shield.

And TLR didn't have the force of hundreds of thousands of koloss that shows up in HOA; Ruin's been increasing their numbers. We know there were at least 20,000, the force that shows up in WOA, but as far as I know we don't know what proportion of the koloss army Jastes got. Maybe 50,000 total? That's still a lot vs. most ancient forces.

The historical empire I'd really like to throw into this is the Aztec. They didn't have metal weapons, so Coinshots and Lurchers wouldn't be very powerful against them. Supposedly, the Aztec macuahuitl (a wooden sword-like weapon edged with obsidian) could decapitate a horse, so it should be quite capable of killing koloss. Their atlatls were very deadly too. The Aztecs really never got to show their maximum effectiveness in our history, since disease tore the empire apart so quickly.

[The One Who Connects]

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

And TLR didn't have the force of hundreds of thousands of koloss that shows up in HOA; Ruin's been increasing their numbers. We know there were at least 20,000, the force that shows up in WOA, but as far as I know we don't know what proportion of the koloss army Jastes got. Maybe 50,000 total? That's still a lot vs. most ancient forces.

Ruin (through Marsh) tells Yomen that Elend has 40,000 Koloss in HoA. Given that some died during the Siege of Luthadel in the previous book, 50K doesn't sound too far off. I think I mentioned this before, but that could easily have been in the Roshar vs Scadrial topic

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

The historical empire I'd really like to throw into this is the Aztec. They didn't have metal weapons, so Coinshots and Lurchers wouldn't be very powerful against them. Supposedly, the Aztec macuahuitl (a wooden sword-like weapon edged with obsidian) could decapitate a horse, so it should be quite capable of killing koloss. Their atlatls were very deadly too.

Inquisitor Axeheads were made of Obsidian, and they had fairly good cutting power IIRC. The Macuahuitl "blade" was made from rows of sharpened pieces of obsidian & flint, so the damage sustained by a swipe would be... bloody. I could see this being a Koloss killer if they can get close enough.

Side note: Aztecs have bows, TFE has no bows, but have steel armor. How close to a proper parallel might Aztec vs TFE actually get..?

Edited October 24, 2016 by The One Who Connects

[asterion137]

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Side note: Aztecs have bows, TFE has no bows, but have steel armor. How close to a proper parallel might Aztec vs TFE actually get..?

TFE had bows since the defenders of Luthadel used them on koloss in WoA

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, asterion137 said:

TFE had bows since the defenders of Luthadel used them on koloss in WoA

Oh yea, I was thinking of gunpowder. Derp.

[asterion137]

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

It occurs to me I might have underestimated the Romans vs. koloss. From HOA, apparently they falter when humans stand determinedly against them - the Roman legions might be disciplined enough to get that effect. The real question IMO is whether shields could block koloss swords, or if the soldier's arm would just break under the force of the strike.

We might be overestimating koloss in general. Elend, before he gets allomancy, kills one with a knife (a small one, granted). And they don't use armor or shields. Despite the thick layers of muscle, all but the largest koloss will probably be easier to kill than a Roman legionary in armor and shield.

And TLR didn't have the force of hundreds of thousands of koloss that shows up in HOA; Ruin's been increasing their numbers. We know there were at least 20,000, the force that shows up in WOA, but as far as I know we don't know what proportion of the koloss army Jastes got. Maybe 50,000 total? That's still a lot vs. most ancient forces.

The historical empire I'd really like to throw into this is the Aztec. They didn't have metal weapons, so Coinshots and Lurchers wouldn't be very powerful against them. Supposedly, the Aztec macuahuitl (a wooden sword-like weapon edged with obsidian) could decapitate a horse, so it should be quite capable of killing koloss. Their atlatls were very deadly too. The Aztecs really never got to show their maximum effectiveness in our history, since disease tore the empire apart so quickly.

I'm thinking at the very least 150,000 koloss for TFE since Jastes only got the ones in his dominance and there are five major dominances, plus the ones who were stationed in the outer dominances to fight nomads and such. Plus TFE was roughly the size of Europe and I don't think the Lord Ruler could hold that much land together with 50k koloss

[kenod]

Wasn't every region beyond the most distant Dominances basically a desert or worse? That would probably end off any empire that lives there.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, the burnlands raiding tribes would have had to be small due to the limitations of what that lifestyle could support, so it wouldn't have taken very many koloss out there.

Also, weren't all the koloss stationed in distant/remote areas to keep them from killing humans 'outside of orders'? I don't think they were anything like equally distributed, so Jastes getting half or so of the total might not be that implausible.