Hoid's Lerasium and spiritwebs

[DarkJester]

Really? Your right. I haven't got to that one yet. Now I'm very curious... And I know which one to go for next.

[Spoolofwhool]

35 minutes ago, DarkJester said:

He's a traveler. That's what he does. In Elantris, it is specifically stated that the further you go from Elantris the weaker your connection to the Dor grows. Something that works against who he is. I'm sure he was trying to become an Elantrian, and probably still is, but that's just a small step in completing the set in my opinion. As an Elantrian, he would only be effective as one when in close proximity to the city. When on other worlds he wouldn't have any real access to Dor. He could carry storm light with him for a few weeks. He can Cary breaths indefinitely. Dor, for as powerful as it is, is only effective in a limited area. If it were just one of the many parts that make up Hoids spirit web though... What I'm saying is that, yes, he wants to be Elantrian, but I believe it is only a small step in his broader plan. I think his ultimate goal is to replace Adonalsium. 

Just because he would lose AonDor abilities when he gets further from Elantris after becoming an Elantrian doesn't mean it would overall become a limiter. It would just mean he would gain a more limited power. Also, it has been suggested that there may be ways to access the Dor for region-limited Selish abilities outside those regions, and if anyone could figure out how to do it, it would probably be Hoid. 

My interpretation when you said "why would he want to limit himself?" was that becoming an Elantrian would somehow apply a greater limitation to his actions. Is that what you meant, or did you mean something more along the lines of "why would he try to take an ability which would have limited usage?"? 

In any case, I don't think his goal is to replace Adonalsium, as that would require way more power than he has interested himself in getting, unless you're thinking that he's going to draw out all of the shards' power once he's established connection to them all, which still seems unlikely. 

[DarkJester]

There ya go. The last thing you said was kinda what I had in mind. It feels like he is trying to gain access to all the shards and reunite them within himself. Kaladin and Sil talk about it. What has been broken can be mended again. They were talking about weapons and people, but to me it seems more like its foreshadowing something bigger. And if anyone could or even would try something so big as reforgeing a god, I could see it being him...

[Ari he/him]

On 24/08/2016 at 6:52 PM, Djarskublar said:

Yeah he is definitely using feruchemy. Didn't say he wasn't, only guessing that he didn't need to, it just made his pre-existing ability stronger. He probably used a bit of the bead to make himself mistborn. Also, I don't think he is a feruchemist. Its Lerasium, so there's a decent chance anyone can store in it just as anyone can burn it.

I get the feeling that his immortality is very soft, as you put it. The only reason he is still alive is because he hasn't lived all those years. Time dilation. Becoming an Elantrian would still be useful to negate the necessity of time dilation.

... Are you being deliberately obtuse? You clearly understand the topic that Hoid is becoming an Elantrian via Lerasium as shown by your first comment (that was deliberately insulting btw, I'm just nice enough to laugh it off... Even gave you an upvote), and then this post about him going back to Sel to try again? Poor Zeppo makes a highly constructive comment, and then you contradict yourself to tell him he's got to be wrong. Which is it? Do you believe he could and maybe has used the bead to become an Elantrian, as you originally said, or is this quote that completely ignores the premise of the thread your opinion? Either way, I'm getting fed up with you being contrary to literally every post nearly anyone makes regardless of whether it is consructive, funny, or just plain old fact. I can understand nitpicking. This isn't that. Have a plethora of downvotes. Whether you are right or not about Hoid not being an Elantrian yet because his hair is an illusion is irrelevant. I agree that he isn't for the same illusions reason, but talking about him going back to Sel makes so little sense in context that I can interpret it as nothing but confrontationalism. *goes off to watch anime to calm down before I say something I'll regret*

The reason anyone can burn Lerasium is that it rewrites your sDNA when burned. I doubt that anyone can use Lerasium as a metalmind. If Hoid's doing Feruchemy without being a Feruchemist, it's using something like those medallions, however he would have needed a Feruchemist who knew how to make them before Era 2 when we know they became common in Southern Scadrial, so that seems an unlikely explanation. It's more likely he found a way to become a Feruchemist permanently.

On 18/09/2016 at 0:27 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

Just because he would lose AonDor abilities when he gets further from Elantris after becoming an Elantrian doesn't mean it would overall become a limiter. It would just mean he would gain a more limited power. Also, it has been suggested that there may be ways to access the Dor for region-limited Selish abilities outside those regions, and if anyone could figure out how to do it, it would probably be Hoid. 

My interpretation when you said "why would he want to limit himself?" was that becoming an Elantrian would somehow apply a greater limitation to his actions. Is that what you meant, or did you mean something more along the lines of "why would he try to take an ability which would have limited usage?"? 

In any case, I don't think his goal is to replace Adonalsium, as that would require way more power than he has interested himself in getting, unless you're thinking that he's going to draw out all of the shards' power once he's established connection to them all, which still seems unlikely. 

There are other limits to being an Elantrian. Given Hoid already at least has a form of extreme longevity, I don't think he'd want to become an Elantrian unless he had a specific use for the power, as he could achieve true immortality through Breaths, and it's heavily implied he has several hundreds of those in the Stormlight Archive, so I imagine he's become functionally immortal that way instead, and his only reason to want to become an Elantrian would be access to AonDor.

Those limits, btw, are that you can die far more easily of mental or emotional stress as an Elantrian. Galladon (is that name right?) wasn't kidding that his father essentially died of a broken heart.

[Djarskublar he/him]

Except... Burning Lerasium is what gives you the ability to burn all metals. You have to have the ability to burn it first. That ability is inherent to everyone on Scadrial, and possibly everyone. Probably anyone with Connection to Preservation. That heavily implies that for the same reason, you can use it feruchemically with a Connection to Preservation.

CUE FLASH OF INSPIRIATION!

Burning Lerasium gives you the ability to burn anything. Atium can spike anything, so maybe Lerasium can store anything! That includes Hoid's special luck.

[Ari he/him]

...no it doesn't. Again, "burning" Lerasium overwrites your spiritual DNA to make you a mistborn. Alloying it with other metals can make you a misting. There is no evidence to suggest that touching Lerasium would temporarily change your spiritweb to make you a Feruchemist, especially when we already know that touching an unsealed Nicrosilmind can have the same effect.

Why would Lerasium's feruchemical ability simply be a variant of Nicrosil's? It makes no sense. Now arguably, Lerasium might act as a feruchemical wildcard, allowing you to use it as any type of metalmind you like, (arguably. I expect it simply stores a new unique attribute similar to Atium personally, and that if there is a feruchemical wildcard, it's Harmonium) in which case your argument works if Hoid was already a Feruchemist.

Hoid's "special luck" doesn't require special explanations. He could easily tap feruchemical Chromium before he decides where to go next. Remember, Occam's razor- the explanation with the fewest and smallest assumptions is best.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Ari said:

Hoid's "special luck" doesn't require special explanations. He could easily tap feruchemical Chromium before he decides where to go next. Remember, Occam's razor- the explanation with the fewest and smallest assumptions is best.

WoB states though that Hoid has an actual innate ability to know where and when to go. So that seems to strongly imply that he's not just tapping a lot of luck and blindly worldhopping, he's actually targeting a specific destination when he worldhops. Combined with the other WoB, it seems to be implying that he is using feruchemy to amplify said ability. 

Thanks for the correction on Elantrians.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[BeskarKomrk he/him]

14 hours ago, Ari said:

There are other limits to being an Elantrian. Given Hoid already at least has a form of extreme longevity, I don't think he'd want to become an Elantrian unless he had a specific use for the power, as he could achieve true immortality through Breaths, and it's heavily implied he has several hundreds of those in the Stormlight Archive, so I imagine he's become functionally immortal that way instead, and his only reason to want to become an Elantrian would be access to AonDor.

Those limits, btw, are that you can die far more easily of mental or emotional stress as an Elantrian. Galladon (is that name right?) wasn't kidding that his father essentially died of a broken heart.

I do want to point out that Hoid was attempting to become an Elantrian a long time before we see him on Nalthis, so he may not have had immortality through Breath at that point (or even known it was possible). We don't really know how long the magic system on Nalthis has existed.

[A Secret Corner he/him]

15 hours ago, Ari said:

...no it doesn't. Again, "burning" Lerasium overwrites your spiritual DNA to make you a mistborn. Alloying it with other metals can make you a misting. There is no evidence to suggest that touching Lerasium would temporarily change your spiritweb to make you a Feruchemist, especially when we already know that touching an unsealed Nicrosilmind can have the same effect.

Why would Lerasium's feruchemical ability simply be a variant of Nicrosil's? It makes no sense. Now arguably, Lerasium might act as a feruchemical wildcard, allowing you to use it as any type of metalmind you like, (arguably. I expect it simply stores a new unique attribute similar to Atium personally, and that if there is a feruchemical wildcard, it's Harmonium) in which case your argument works if Hoid was already a Feruchemist.

Hoid's "special luck" doesn't require special explanations. He could easily tap feruchemical Chromium before he decides where to go next. Remember, Occam's razor- the explanation with the fewest and smallest assumptions is best.

Good, someone brought in Ockham's razor... very useful tool to slash scientific theories to ribbons.

[Steelheart]

On 8/23/2016 at 8:37 AM, Argel said:

Or maybe the bead can be used to make the special luck stronger/more precise (or both). Good idea. 

Maybe before he was using Feruchemy, but now that he's a Fullborn, he's Compounding, so its that much stronger?

[Ari he/him]

On 21/09/2016 at 3:16 AM, BeskarKomrk said:

I do want to point out that Hoid was attempting to become an Elantrian a long time before we see him on Nalthis, so he may not have had immortality through Breath at that point (or even known it was possible). We don't really know how long the magic system on Nalthis has existed.

Yeah, I'm referring to the idea that he'd still be after those powers post-Elantris, which I'm not sure makes sense.

On 21/09/2016 at 5:37 AM, Secrets said:

Good, someone brought in Ockham's razor... very useful tool to slash scientific theories to ribbons.

Or fan theories. XD Seriously though, if your idea fails Occam's razor, refine it until it passes. You'll have a better idea in the end.

[A Secret Corner he/him]

3 hours ago, Ari said:

Yeah, I'm referring to the idea that he'd still be after those powers post-Elantris, which I'm not sure makes sense.

Or fan theories. XD Seriously though, if your idea fails Occam's razor, refine it until it passes. You'll have a better idea in the end.

True. Applying the scientific method to magical immortals is great.

[Djarskublar he/him]

On 9/19/2016 at 8:01 PM, Ari said:

...no it doesn't. Again, "burning" Lerasium overwrites your spiritual DNA to make you a mistborn. Alloying it with other metals can make you a misting. There is no evidence to suggest that touching Lerasium would temporarily change your spiritweb to make you a Feruchemist, especially when we already know that touching an unsealed Nicrosilmind can have the same effect.

Why would Lerasium's feruchemical ability simply be a variant of Nicrosil's? It makes no sense. Now arguably, Lerasium might act as a feruchemical wildcard, allowing you to use it as any type of metalmind you like, (arguably. I expect it simply stores a new unique attribute similar to Atium personally, and that if there is a feruchemical wildcard, it's Harmonium) in which case your argument works if Hoid was already a Feruchemist.

Hoid's "special luck" doesn't require special explanations. He could easily tap feruchemical Chromium before he decides where to go next. Remember, Occam's razor- the explanation with the fewest and smallest assumptions is best.

Alright, I typed a reply, but it didn't post, so I am just now getting back to this. Silly internet.

The problem with what you are saying is that you are saying you can't use Lerasium feruchemically because they aren't a feruchemist, but Elend used it Allomantically, and he was not an Allomancer. Occam's razor, as you brought it in, suggests to me that the simplest explanation for the facts is that anyone can use Lerasium feruchemically. Why should it be different Allomantically vs Feruchemically?

The difference between nicrosil and Lerasium is that nicrosil stores Investiture. It can store powers and such, but I am saying Lerasium stores anything. It would make an anymind. If it is something you can identify as potentially storable, you can store it. It would of course just happen to be able to store the 16+ things the other metals can, but also stuff like size (density change), skills, and perhaps even body parts.

[Spoolofwhool]

53 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

The problem with what you are saying is that you are saying you can't use Lerasium feruchemically because they aren't a feruchemist, but Elend used it Allomantically, and he was not an Allomancer. Occam's razor, as you brought it in, suggests to me that the simplest explanation for the facts is that anyone can use Lerasium feruchemically. Why should it be different Allomantically vs Feruchemically?

The difference probably is that Allomancy is directly of Preservation while Feruchemy is of both Preservation and Ruin. I don't think Occam's Razor can be used to say that anyone can store into Lerasium. It seems more likely that you would have to be a feruchemist first. 

[Djarskublar he/him]

4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The difference probably is that Allomancy is directly of Preservation while Feruchemy is of both Preservation and Ruin. I don't think Occam's Razor can be used to say that anyone can store into Lerasium. It seems more likely that you would have to be a feruchemist first. 

Fair enough about the Razor, but it goes both ways. That razor is a two edged sword. The fact is that Lerasium can be burned by anyone (potentially, it may only apply to Scadrians and maybe Yolish peoples). The other known fact of it is that it rewrites Spiritwebs to Mistborn when burned by default, but could be used for other effects theoretically. That is all we know about what it does. Everything else is supposition, but I think that my theory that it could be used to become an Elantrian is solid. Anything about its use Feruchemically is guesswork based on cryptic WoBs that imply it can be used to store Hoid's special 'luck.' I staunchly believe that if that was all it stored, that would be far too convenient for Hoid. That implies that it stores multiple things, and that fits with the theme of one or all. It may be it only stores one thing, and Hoid burned the Lerasium to become a Feruchemist, and is using nicrosil to store his luck. It is probably a more innate Investiture, so it may be easily stored and tapped like other abilities.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

Fair enough about the Razor, but it goes both ways. That razor is a two edged sword. The fact is that Lerasium can be burned by anyone (potentially, it may only apply to Scadrians and maybe Yolish peoples). The other known fact of it is that it rewrites Spiritwebs to Mistborn when burned by default, but could be used for other effects theoretically. That is all we know about what it does. Everything else is supposition, but I think that my theory that it could be used to become an Elantrian is solid. Anything about its use Feruchemically is guesswork based on cryptic WoBs that imply it can be used to store Hoid's special 'luck.' I staunchly believe that if that was all it stored, that would be far too convenient for Hoid. That implies that it stores multiple things, and that fits with the theme of one or all. It may be it only stores one thing, and Hoid burned the Lerasium to become a Feruchemist, and is using nicrosil to store his luck. It is probably a more innate Investiture, so it may be easily stored and tapped like other abilities.

Fair enough. You didn't need to sum up your entire opinion on the topic's matter. That just made for a giant tangent.

[cometaryorbit]

The weird thing to me is that Hoid really seems to have Soothing on Roshar, but if he still has the Lerasium for Feruchemy ... I wonder if he just cut off a sixteenth of it and alloyed it with brass to get Soothing, and kept the other 15/16 as a Metalmind?

Or could you eat just half of a lerasium bead and become a "normal strength" Mistborn rather than a super-strength one like Elend?

[Yata he/him]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

The weird thing to me is that Hoid really seems to have Soothing on Roshar, but if he still has the Lerasium for Feruchemy ... I wonder if he just cut off a sixteenth of it and alloyed it with brass to get Soothing, and kept the other 15/16 as a Metalmind?

Or could you eat just half of a lerasium bead and become a "normal strength" Mistborn rather than a super-strength one like Elend?

We have a WoB who said that if Hoid would use Lerasium, He would used all of it (for reason we don't know)...Anyway it is possible that Hoid is not an allomancer or a feruchemist but he has instead tools to uses this abilities

Edited September 28, 2016 by Yata

[The One Who Connects he/him]

6 hours ago, Yata said:

Anyway it is possible that Hoid is not an allomancer or a feruchemist but he has instead tools to uses this abilities

Given the time period of SA, he could have popped off and "acquired" a medallion or two from Scadrial.

I haven't perused the books recently, but I don't recall any specific mention of medallions granting allomancy, or if they required ingesting metals like we assumed Hoid did on Roshar

[Jondesu he/him]

57 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I haven't perused the books recently, but I don't recall any specific mention of medallions granting allomancy, or if they required ingesting metals like we assumed Hoid did on Roshar

They do require the metals. The medallion grants the ability, then the metals provide the access to the actual Allomancy.  We see that with Marasi and Wax both, IIRC (though I may be mixing that up with the Bands, but they use the same principle).

jW

[Yata he/him]

As @Jondesusaid it's possible to obtain Allomancy through Medallion and when you uses a Allomancy-gift-Medallion still need Metal to burn (I will fill weird otherwise)

[Djarskublar he/him]

On 9/28/2016 at 1:08 AM, Yata said:

We have a WoB who said that if Hoid would use Lerasium, He would used all of it (for reason we don't know)...Anyway it is possible that Hoid is not an allomancer or a feruchemist but he has instead tools to uses this abilities

I actually don't think I've seen this one. Was it a Reddit one or something?

On 9/28/2016 at 9:29 AM, Yata said:

As @Jondesusaid it's possible to obtain Allomancy through Medallion and when you uses a Allomancy-gift-Medallion still need Metal to burn (I will fill weird otherwise)

I also agree with that. I suppose he could be using a medallion, though of course we have assumed he used the Lerasium for a long time since we didn't know about medallions before that.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

On 9/17/2016 at 4:02 PM, DarkJester said:

Ok. I've listened to most all of the cosmir related books (audio), and I'm starting to understand a little better how things are connected. So from what I gather in this discussion, people seem to think Hoid wants to become an Elantrian, but why would he want to limit himself? He keeps world hopping, forging connections, and gaining experience/skills. He holds breath, noted by his perfect pitch, he can use storm light, and I'm sure there's much more if you look into it. The fact is, he's not just looking around and trying to figure out what form to pick. It's too simple for him. Yes, elantrians are extremely powerful when compaired with many of the other powerful beings in the cosmir, and they are immortal, but it seems to me that Hoid already has that going for him. It seems to me that Hoid is more interested in gathering connections, and experiences. Someone posted about how your experiences and your actions write themselves to your spirit web. Well I propose that he is trying to gather hints of all the shards of Adonalsium, writing them into his spirit web, even if only a little, so that if he were to rewrite his spiritual DNA, he will try to become the new Adonalsium. Why limit himself. If your going to hold on to the power to change yourself any way you want, and cary it around for hundreds of years, your going to use it for something big. A normal person becoming an Elantrian would be big, but for Hoid, it would be like a thanks for participating trophy to put on his shelf of dozens upon dozens of other trophies. Yeah, it's nice, but it's just not that big of a deal...

I was thinking along similar lines but I see I don't even need to say anything because you covered it

Anyway, I also believe Hoid wants to reforge Adolnasium... But I'm not sure how he would feel about connecting himself to Odium.

So... Considering that being an Elantrian wouldn't actually be that useful to Hoid, given his existing abilities (and also because I suspect being away from Sel as an Elantrian might be slightly inconvenient)... And considering the fact that I'm not sure if Hoid wants to be connected to all the shards... I must conclude that Hoid has a slightly different plan than what we think.

I can really only think of two options here... I feel that Hoid is either grasping every shred of power he can in preparation for some huge plan... Or, perhaps more likely, he is studying all these magics. We see that different magics have powerful interactions (a good example is compounding). With access to the powers from all these places, you might be able to do some very unusual things. He could pretty much hack reality at some point.

 

EDIT: Also how much do we know about Lerasium feruchemy? I saw the WoB that Hoid uses feruchemy to tell when and where important things are going on... Does this imply that Lerasium would somehow relate to predicting the future? In a way, that kind of makes a sort of sense. Atium lets you see the immediate future, which is immensely useful for combat. Lerasium would give you some kind of limited glimpse at the distant future, which wouldn't be very helpful in a fight but would potentially be quite useful in other ways.

On the other hand... It seems like prescience has already been explored a fair amount in Sanderson's novels, with atium's power, the future sight of some of the shards, and of coarse Taravangian's diagram. I highly doubt that it is as simple as I am making it out to be.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[Argel he/him]

On 9/29/2016 at 3:31 PM, Drake Marshall said:

I saw the WoB that Hoid uses feruchemy to tell when and where important things are going on... Does this imply that Lerasium would somehow relate to predicting the future?

He was using that trick  before he took the bead.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Really? Interesting... That opens up a lot of possibilities.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Drake Marshall