Adolin's Fate?

[ShardDance]

I'm afraid that  Adolin's fight with Sadeas at the end of WoR will put him in danger of retribution from the Skybreakers. Does anyone else see that as a concern? He also has a personal vendetta against Szeth, is it likely Brandon will kill him off in the next couple books?

[Humpty]

Doubtful, seems to me the Skybreakers could care less about normal criminals. I think they only go after surgebinders. and as far as the Szeth vendetta everyone thinks Szeth is dead.

 

[Stick.]

Brandon Sanderson is likely to kill off ANYONE in the next couple of books from what I've learnt 

[Argel]

@ShardDance, I would tell you to search the forums as this has been discussed a lot recently, but you can just wait for @maxal to chime in. Just be prepared to read a lot!

[Patrick Star]

The Skybreakers are not the Skybreakers.  Nalan's lackeys are different from the Radiant order.

They have a different agenda.  If Adolin faces any scrutiny, it will come from the other highprinces or allies of Sadeas. 

[geralt]

Nale probably wouldn't be interested in pursuing Adolin unless he becomes a radiant and even then, considering the ending of WoR, the skybreakers and Szeth should be pretty busy fighting against the honorblade-wielding monks for a while... I reckon Adolin's biggest threat is likely to be Ialai.

[maxal]

Adolin's fate has caused of lot of ink to spill in the last two years and I must say, we aren't more advanced now than we used to be. Unfortunately, since I am away from home and working on a crap network which screwed my previous message, I'll be very brief.

Of all characters, who's opinions will matter the most when Adolin is found guilty? I used to think it would be Dalinar, but then again Dalinar, despite his position, may not be the one which matters when it comes to judgement. 

Then who? And aren't we over-simplifying the situations when we merely state Adolin will have to deal with a few assassins or be exiled? Brandon talked of ramifications, others seem to think most analysis are way too simple...

To this thread, I would ask, what have we bee missing in the past two years? Which ramification have we not thought of and who, ultimately, will decide of Adolin's faith? 

 

[Argel]

The ramifications could be ll kinds of things though. If he lost the respect of his family including his father and Renarin then that could be worse than anything else we can think of for Adolin.

Shallan's father was a rager so murdering Sadeas could be too much for her (of course, it could go the other way too).

Elohkar is the king, and who knows how he might react, though it's hard to imagine it being favorable to Adolin. Exile is a real possibility. 

The amount of alcholo flowing amongst the Kohlins is excessive, especiually considering Elohkar so there's a possibility. I have a hard time imaging Adolin becoming an alcoholic just from the murder, but it could result from the fallout from the murder, such as being disowned by his father.

Adolin could volunteer for (or be volunteered for) a suicide mission.  

I did not think that WoB singled Adolin out, so it's also possible the ramifications affect others (Sadeas wife comes to mind). 

This is a real tricky one though because of what is going on in the world. The ramifications could be Dalinar and the KRs find it harder to act because of politics, power plays, etc. as fallout from Sadeas murder. 

Side note: Many believe  Nalan/Nale is acting on his own outside of the true Skybreakers but I do not believe that has been confirmed.

[maxal]

10 hours ago, Argel said:

The ramifications could be ll kinds of things though. If he lost the respect of his family including his father and Renarin then that could be worse than anything else we can think of for Adolin.

Shallan's father was a rager so murdering Sadeas could be too much for her (of course, it could go the other way too).

Elohkar is the king, and who knows how he might react, though it's hard to imagine it being favorable to Adolin. Exile is a real possibility. 

The amount of alcholo flowing amongst the Kohlins is excessive, especiually considering Elohkar so there's a possibility. I have a hard time imaging Adolin becoming an alcoholic just from the murder, but it could result from the fallout from the murder, such as being disowned by his father.

Adolin could volunteer for (or be volunteered for) a suicide mission.  

I did not think that WoB singled Adolin out, so it's also possible the ramifications affect others (Sadeas wife comes to mind). 

This is a real tricky one though because of what is going on in the world. The ramifications could be Dalinar and the KRs find it harder to act because of politics, power plays, etc. as fallout from Sadeas murder. 

Side note: Many believe  Nalan/Nale is acting on his own outside of the true Skybreakers but I do not believe that has been confirmed.

None of it is anything we haven't discussed before.

I think most of us will agree there will be various sets of consequences: there will the the official consequence and there will be the unofficial one. The official consequences will have to deal with the legality of his actions. Banishment, removal of Shards, lost of rank and inheritance are those which spontaneously come to mind. They would need to be voiced by either the King, Dalinar and/or a jury depending on how Alethi trial their high ranked criminals. The King and the jury would issue the "official" punishment while Dalinar, in his quality of both father and Highprince, may issue internal to House Kholin punishment. For instances, the law may decide Adolin had reasons enough for his actions and should walk free, but Dalinar may decide to remove Adolin from the line of inheritance. 

The unofficial consequences would have to deal with the ramifications not tied to the official judgement. Law may find Adolin "not guilty", but Dalinar may lose the trust he once had in his son. I'd be bold here and claim he didn't have a lot of it to begin with, therefore to see his son spontaneously take one step into his shadow as the Blackthorn may be enough to destroy what was once there. I know, saying Dalinar is not exactly trusting Adolin is a bold statement, but from my perspective, when you work so hard to have your son and heir endorse one very specific, rigid and constraint set of rules, claiming you wish he may see their wisdom if forced to obey them long enough, you aren't exactly being trusting. In other words, it seems to me Dalinar does not trust Adolin will make the right choices, on his own, and he over-compensates by enforcing a bizarre set of incoherent rules meant to force him to walk a tight line. It is only, towards the end, he openly states the finally trusts him only to see this trust being broken soon after. I'd thus say, I'd be extremely surprised if Dalinar were to react positively. Therefore, no matter which way the legality of Adolin's actions swing, it is safe to assume Dalinar will cause his own set of ramifications. Losing this trust will probably impact Adolin badly.

Another unofficial consequence may come from Adolin himself. He thinks he did bad: this is obvious from his reaction. He will feel guilty. Will this guilt magically vanish simply because he isn't exiled or too severely punished? Especially considering the fact he is surrounded by a flock of more worthy individuals than himself, namely the Radiants? We aw with Dalinar and Kaladin how far guilt can drive a man and of the three, Adolin has the most cause to feel guilty. Dalinar and Kaladin feel guilty they weren't in a position to help protect their brothers. They feel guilty they didn't have the opportunity to act, even though the outcome would have likely been the same with the exception they would ve dead a well. Adolin is much worst: he is the killer. His guilt is not tied to a lack of opportunity to protect anyone, it is tied to his own actions. He did it. There is no escape there, no glorious moment where Dalinar suddenly realize he wouldn't have changed the outcome had he been sober, no comfort is trying to protect every single individual luckly enough to resemble Tien: there is nothing. Adolin will never feel solace into doing what he feels he should have done to stop the outcome, being more protective for Kaladin and stop being a drunk for Dalinar. He is just going to be left with a huge load of guilt and he won't know what to do with it. No matter how he is going to shuffle things around, he killed Sadeas because he lost control of himself. Yes, he had more "noble" objectives, but the fact remains without this control loss, without this "mind snapping", it would have never happened. How do you even come back from that? Honestly, I have no idea, but seeing how difficult it is for both Dalinar and Kaladin, I'd say Adolin has a much steeper cliff to climb and he may not even receive a cookie if he makes it as even if he ever manages to free himself from it, it may very well be Dalinar still won't have forgiven him.

I don't know how that's going to play out, but volunteering on a suicide mission has always been part of the ramifications I tend to list. It seems to me as if Adolin can't give himself forgiveness, if his family can't give it to him either, he may as well think he is better off dying while doing some good, sacrificial himself for them in an ultimate attempt of redemption, both in their eyes, but more importantly in his.

I don't know if this is complicated enough though...

For the rest, Shallan and Elhokar are two wild cards. Both could react either way and I wouldn't be surprised. While I doubt Shallan will clap her hands and kiss Adolin upon finding out (I think she is more likely to break up the engagement for it), I cannot say how Elhokar will react. He doesn't seem to hold a grudge against his younger cousin, but it would be inline with the character to be jealous of him, even though we haven't seen this in book. He could either want to severely punish Adolin or be inclined to leniency or it may be he'll be the voice of reason... If nobody can agree, he may suggest said suicide mission, not because he wants Adolin dead, but because it ultimately may be the only way where he has a chance of making it, even if very small.

Or there could be we will meet a real Skybreaker and he'll demand true justice... 

[Argel]

14 hours ago, maxal said:

While I doubt Shallan will clap her hands and kiss Adolin upon finding out (I think she is more likely to break up the engagement for it)

I think Shallan's response may depend the official response. For example, of Adolin is pardoned, then she may stay with it for political reasons. If Jasnah returns that could be a factor, though Shallan has had a lot of growth since they last met. But if Adolin is pardoned and Jasnah encourages her to keep the engagement she might go along with it. I wonder what the Ghostbloods make of the engagement, if anything (they might encourage it for political reasons as well, especially since it would be Shallan marrying Adolin, not Veil).

14 hours ago, maxal said:

None of it is anything we haven't discussed before.

Yeah, I'm hard pressed to come with anything new that doesn't sound crazy. 

 

Edit:

So, do the Skybreakers have pennance? Maybe Adolin ends up working for them as his punishment. I'm leaning towards him taking on dangerous missions for one or more reasons we have discussed. Seems to fit his character.

I think we may have discussed this one, but I wonder if he may seek out Kaladin for advice. 

In the wild card department there is also Jasnah and Hoid/Wit if they show up in time. I don't think Jasnah will be too upset, especially if learns of Sadeas abandoning Dalinar.

Here's something for consideration -- what if what Adolin did is permitted (or sort of permitted)? Sadeas could be considered to be speaking treason at that point. I guess he should have demanded a duel, but e.g. killing the king's Wit is permitted if not caught....

Edited August 2, 2016 by Argel

[Killik]

1 hour ago, Argel said:

Here's something for consideration -- what if what Adolin did is permitted (or sort of permitted)? Sadeas could be considered to be speaking treason at that point. I guess he should have demanded a duel, but e.g. killing the king's Wit is permitted if not caught....

I doubt most of them would consider the king's Wit and a highprince on the same level.  Just after Kaladin rescues the Kholin army Dalinar thinks:

"How would Sadeas respond when Dalinar returned?  Would he try to finish the job, attacking?  No, Dalinar thought.  No, he did it this way for a purpose. Sadeas had not engaged him personally.  he had abandoned Dalinar, but by Alethi standards, that was another thing entirely..."

Demanding a duel would certainly have been a better option, but at the same time there was nobody around to witness it which seems to be an important item in that particular system.

I remember a WoB stating that some of the Knights orders would find him completely innocent, if not laud him for it.  But short of that, I dont think he will escape some kind of punishment, if he is caught.

[ShardDance]

I also wonder Kaladin's response. The two have become friends (of a sort) will Kaladin turn away or help him through it. I think the latter is more likely. He hated Sadeas almost as much as Amram.

[one winged jhereg]

With all the talk about Adolin never losing a duel, and the multiple times it's mentioned that its possible to get Odium to choose a champion, there is only one possible outcome in the long run:  Adolin will be Odium's champion  and will have to duel Kaladin for the fate of Roshar.  

[Argel]

That could explain why Brandon rarely talks about Adolin.

[goody153]

 

37 minutes ago, one winged jhereg said:

With all the talk about Adolin never losing a duel, and the multiple times it's mentioned that its possible to get Odium to choose a champion, there is only one possible outcome in the long run:  Adolin will be Odium's champion  and will have to duel Kaladin for the fate of Roshar.  

I didn't get the impression that what Adolin did is not road to Odium

Quote

JERICH ()

Are there radiant orders that would take someone like Adolin even after what he does at the end of Words of Radiant?

BRANDON SANDERSON ()

Brandon: I am not going to say whether or not Adolin will become a Knights Radiant, but yes, there are several orders that would be very happy with what he did. Me: Like the Skybreakers or Dustbringers? Brandon: The Skybreakers would probably not want him because he broke a law, but there are other orders that would think he completely did the right thing and be very happy with him. Trickonometry (who was waiting in line behind me): Like the Dustbringers? Brandon: (Didn't say anything but looked up at him, smiled and half nodded)

after all this and another wob he seems to be indicating what he did would not be an issue as long as it's not windrunner/skybreaker/other too strict radiant orders

Quote

KALADIN AL'THOR

So I noticed during my last read through of WoR that when Adolin summoned his blade, it formed from mist in the shape of vines. Does this mean that the Radiant that the blade was originally bonded to was an Edgedancer?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, yes it does. (He also had a huge mischievous smile)

There's also this.

Quote

QUESTION

I am very convinced that Adolin, with the events that happen with the last book. You’re sending him down a like a dark path. Is he possibly going to be a-- Antagonist(?) protagonist(?)-- A bad, eventually? Or is he--

BRANDON SANDERSON

I’m going to say this, the things that Adolin did do not contradict some of the moralities on Roshar, in fact they follow them directly. Some of the moralities on our planet would say what he did is the right thing to do. I think treating it as a “dark path” is too reductionist to say. There are people who would seriously argue, and they would have a good argument, that what Dalinar was doing by leaving Sadeas around was a good idea. And then there are other people who would say “You know what Sadeas did was a challenge and it was rightly then responded to” and then there are people who would say it was absolutely immoral. So, it depends on your philosophy. What would Honor say? Well, Honor’s dead, so-- *lots of laughter* You know Honor would not have been behind that action, but Honor’s dead

Quote

RURO272

Was Adolin's murder of Sadeas him falling under the influence of Odium, or was that all him?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That was all Adolin.

I suspect that Kaladin/Dalinar/maybe Renarin would be so disappointed and probably angry with what he did too but he doesn't feel like he's going full Odium.

Yeah i feel like he's gonna die too but prolly in a "you all go ! i'll hold them/it/whatever" but there's gonna be alot of lying in the next few adolin related stuff i'm sure.

Edited August 3, 2016 by goody153

[maxal]

On 02/08/2016 at 1:05 PM, Argel said:

I think Shallan's response may depend the official response. For example, of Adolin is pardoned, then she may stay with it for political reasons. If Jasnah returns that could be a factor, though Shallan has had a lot of growth since they last met. But if Adolin is pardoned and Jasnah encourages her to keep the engagement she might go along with it. I wonder what the Ghostbloods make of the engagement, if anything (they might encourage it for political reasons as well, especially since it would be Shallan marrying Adolin, not Veil).

Yeah, I'm hard pressed to come with anything new that doesn't sound crazy. 

 

Edit:

So, do the Skybreakers have pennance? Maybe Adolin ends up working for them as his punishment. I'm leaning towards him taking on dangerous missions for one or more reasons we have discussed. Seems to fit his character.

I think we may have discussed this one, but I wonder if he may seek out Kaladin for advice. 

In the wild card department there is also Jasnah and Hoid/Wit if they show up in time. I don't think Jasnah will be too upset, especially if learns of Sadeas abandoning Dalinar.

Here's something for consideration -- what if what Adolin did is permitted (or sort of permitted)? Sadeas could be considered to be speaking treason at that point. I guess he should have demanded a duel, but e.g. killing the king's Wit is permitted if not caught....

Based on the character we have read so far, I doubt Shallan would settle with Adolin simply for political advantages. It may have been true early on, when she thought the engagement would save her family, but she has now gone above this considerations. Her family has been saved through other means (is it truly though it yet to be seen), she has no further need to marry Adolin. Jasnah may have carried the desire to tie Shallan in to her family due to her radiancy, but we can bet Shallan will want everything but to be controlled or to owe anything to the Kholins. All her life she has been told what to do, now she has tasted independence, she won't be willing to compromise it this easily.

I thus don't see Shallan supporting Adolin for mere political advantages: it would clash with the character's progression we have had so far. I think it more likely she would dump him because his uncontrollable anger will make him appear as if sharing personality traits with her father. Combined with the one time where he said he wanted to protect her, she'd think marrying Adolin will equate marrying Lin Davar. Of course, this isn't true, but Shallan's first analysis may be as simple as this. Where will she go from there? Will she revise her position? Will she get to know Adolin more personally and realize her mistake? I can't say, but I do not think she will be his ally.

As for Jasnah, there is no telling if she will make it to Urithiru in time for her opinion on the event to actually matter.

I am also strongly leaning towards Adolin taking a self-imposed penance of sorts and I do see him take on a very dangerous mission in an attempt to absolve himself from his guilt: if he survives this, then perhaps he'd have proven he is worthy enough to be alive or something along those lines. It'd be within the character to act irrationally and impulsively such as this.

As for Kaladin, he has the same problem as Jasnah: there is no telling if he'll get there in time to actually be able to offer any support. It may where the plot is going, while Kaladin is gone, chull dung happens.

Crazier theories nobody ever mentioned? Here are a few...

There are three facets to the Adolin's trial: the legal, the political and the inter-personal one. 

Legally speaking, goody153 has posted the relevant quote: Adolin's actions aren't completely illegal. Therefore, it seems highly probable he will be found not guilty. It may be what passes as court on Alethkar will determined Adolin had causes enough to kill Highprince Sadeas and if Highprince Sadeas was stupid enough to goat Adolin while being alone with him, then he deserved to be killed. However, by the same laws, what prevents members from the Sadeas's princedom to take it out on Adolin? If Sadeas's betrayal is enough to justify Adolin brutally killing him, then surely murdering their Highprince is cause enough to justify others to try to kill Adolin, in broad daylight. In other words, by finding him not guilty, the Alethi court may as well create a harsher punishment where Adolin's life will be in real danger, coming from every corner. It may be he will never be safe in Alethi lands anymore, it may be the judgment will push towards forced exiled even if, technically, he isn't exiled... Therefore, the lack of judgement may be worst than the judgment itself.

Politically speaking, it seems obvious to me several Highprinces will take the incident as reason enough to want to take Adolin out. He humiliated them, he took their Shards away and he did a flourishing bow as he did it. To them, Adolin Kholin is nothing more than an arrogant peacock which is slowly growing into a formidable adversary on its own right: they won't allow him to keep on growing. Also, it is safe to assume not all Highprinces will want to follow Dalinar the Radiant and his Radiant family's lead: Adolin is the vulnerable one. He is the one weak link, the one they can more easily removed and yet cripple the house. Sadeas understood this. We can bet others do as well: you don't get to be Highprince without at least some cunning. This is an easy one, but how about the harder political ramifications? What if, instead of enemies, Adolin found allies? People willing to push for him as Highprince, to demote Dalinar and his crazy Radiants? What if some people do want another Blackthorn? Once again, poor Adolin may end up the key player in a fight for power where he has absolutely no agency whatsoever to influence. 

Inter-personally speaking, I think we got it covered. It is hard to predict how the various characters will react: who will back Adolin, who will not back him? Allies may be found in surprising places and those who should have been allies may be turncoats... 

7 hours ago, one winged jhereg said:

With all the talk about Adolin never losing a duel, and the multiple times it's mentioned that its possible to get Odium to choose a champion, there is only one possible outcome in the long run:  Adolin will be Odium's champion  and will have to duel Kaladin for the fate of Roshar.  

This one comes back on a regular basis. Adolin murdered one person while he mentally snapped and lost control of himself: it wasn't a conscious action, a formal decision he would not embrace evil and start killing people for a yes or for a no. To follow Odium, Adolin would need to forsake his entire family, to oppose them and one thing I do not see happening is about just this. They may turn their back on him, they act as if they did not care about him anymore, but he won't do the same.

6 hours ago, Argel said:

That could explain why Brandon rarely talks about Adolin.

Nah... I think it is either he underestimates the interest his readers have in the character OR saying anything would bring about spoilers.

[DSC01]

I think we fans have chased the idea of the consequences for Adolin around in circles constantly and may be totally over-thinking it. It's probably really not that big a deal. There will surely be personal consequences, but this isn't the crime of the century here. 

[galendo]

11 hours ago, one winged jhereg said:

With all the talk about Adolin never losing a duel, and the multiple times it's mentioned that its possible to get Odium to choose a champion, there is only one possible outcome in the long run:  Adolin will be Odium's champion  and will have to duel Kaladin for the fate of Roshar.  

While this is certainly one possibility, Adolin certainly isn't the only person in SA to not lose duels.  Szeth, for instance, has fought a number of duels against odds worse than any Adolin ever faced and always emerged triumphant.  And though we haven't yet seem them fight, it's probably fair to say that the Heralds don't lose many duels either....

[maxal]

3 hours ago, DSC01 said:

I think we fans have chased the idea of the consequences for Adolin around in circles constantly and may be totally over-thinking it. It's probably really not that big a deal. There will surely be personal consequences, but this isn't the crime of the century here. 

Words have it we are currently under thinking it, always going back to the same ideas and forgetting how complicated the outcome may be. It won't be trivial and it will be a big deal. What remains to be seen is a bog deal for whom and under which circumstances?

[thegatorgirl00]

Have we considered the possibility of the Diagramists getting involved? Mr. T wants countries in chaos, and they could use this incident to cause more chaos among the Highprinces. Graves left at the end of WoR, but did everyone? It would make Dalinar's job a lot more difficult if they were involved behind the scenes making the consequences worse. 

[Argel]

17 hours ago, maxal said:

Her family has been saved through other means (is it truly though it yet to be seen)

How have they been saved?! The family is completely destitute minus Shallan's income from Uncle Sebarial. And being controlled by the Ghostbloods is arguably worse than being controlled be the Kholins. I think we will need to see how this plays out before drawing that conclusion, and that leaves the marriage on the table. Jasnah is part of the Kholin family and look how independant she is -- I think Shallan could manage. 

I think Shallan could go either way with Sadeas. For example, she could see Adolin as protecting his family. And given all the trouble Sadeas has caused including trying to get Dalinar killed by intentionally abandoning him on the battlefield Sadeas may remind her of her father (in a more general sense).

9 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

Have we considered the possibility of the Diagramists getting involved?

They could certainly stir up trouble with those hostile to Dalinar, but they may be shifting focus now that the Everstorm has hit. It could possibly go the other way -- they may want to (maybe form the shadows) support the KRs. It's one thing to try and pull off everything they wanted to before the Everstorm hit, but it's another to continue with that tactic afterwards. Edit: Also, they may decide they need to get closer to the KRs, and prioritize that.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Argel

[DSC01]

11 hours ago, maxal said:

Words have it we are currently under thinking it, always going back to the same ideas and forgetting how complicated the outcome may be.

Where is that coming from? I assume a WoB of some kind. I guess I missed it.

I suppose my wording was imprecise, regardless. I shouldn't say that it won't be a big deal because I'm sure the death of Highprince will cause a huge uproar. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that everyone keeps clutching their pearls over this enormous trespass that dear little Adolin has committed, and I think everyone is overreacting on that front.

I'm not saying that there will be no consequences for Adolin personally, and that the aftermath is all going to be the political consequences of a Highprince's death. I just don't think that people are focusing on the right things when it comes to Adolin.

So many people view it as this huge sin that he committed, and that just doesn't match up with other events, in my view. What about Jasnah and many other nobles' habit of hiring assassins? What about the fact that the official plan for dealing with Sadeas was to corner him into a duel and kill him that way? While there are circumstances that make this particular killing different than the ones that the Alethi seem to just accept, the idea that Adolin did something that is light years away from normal Alethi behavior (and that it is one of the greatest moral failings imaginable) seems way off to me.

[Argel]

2 hours ago, DSC01 said:

What about Jasnah and many other nobles' habit of hiring assassins?

In Alethi eyes there is probably a big difference between doing it yourself and hiring an assassin.

Speaking of that, I suppose pinning the murder on one of the conspiracies/secret societies could be a possibility. Where was Amaram at the time....?

[maxal]

3 hours ago, Argel said:

How have they been saved?! The family is completely destitute minus Shallan's income from Uncle Sebarial. And being controlled by the Ghostbloods is arguably worse than being controlled be the Kholins. I think we will need to see how this plays out before drawing that conclusion, and that leaves the marriage on the table. Jasnah is part of the Kholin family and look how independant she is -- I think Shallan could manage. 

I think Shallan could go either way with Sadeas. For example, she could see Adolin as protecting his family. And given all the trouble Sadeas has caused including trying to get Dalinar killed by intentionally abandoning him on the battlefield Sadeas may remind her of her father (in a more general sense).

They could certainly stir up trouble with those hostile to Dalinar, but they may be shifting focus now that the Everstorm has hit. It could possibly go the other way -- they may want to (maybe form the shadows) support the KRs. It's one thing to try and pull off everything they wanted to before the Everstorm hit, but it's another to continue with that tactic afterwards. Edit: Also, they may decide they need to get closer to the KRs, and prioritize that.

Honestly, it could go as you say. When it comes to Shallan, I will admit I have NO idea how she'll react. I think the rational could be made for her to react either very bad or good. She may end up being Adolin's strongest ally or his downfall. Seriously, I can see it going both ways, so I have to keep on both options open. 

They are saved through her association with the Ghostbloods whom were, if I understood things correctly, their greatest creditors. In other words, Mraize words not only ensure the physical security of Shallan's family, it also ensures its monetary survival. Of course, you are right: it probable is a ploy. I will likely not play out as she thought it would, though how she truly thinks it will play out is yet unknown.

In any advent, I do not think Shallan will, ultimately, settle for a political marriage. I think she will end up putting herself first and marry the man of her choosing: mind it may still be Adolin or someone else or nobody. We must also keep in mind the only reason Jasnah is allowed to do as she wishes is because, as a rich princess favored by her father, she was allowed to not take a spouse. As a wife, even as a wife within the Kholin family, Shallan will have duties to fulfill which may come in conflict with her other interests. 

As for the Diagramists, I think they could end up stirring up trouble. Taravangian mentioned Dalinar could be of used to him, if he decided to keep on being the Blackthorn, but as the code preaching man he has become, he had to be removed. Will he see in Adolin the possibility to get another Blackthorn? Will he try to use Adolin against his father? How would he even think of achieving this? Well... If Shallan reacts badly as it may very be, then Adolin will most likely be heartbroken. I think the story has made it clear he was slowly getting to a point where those successive break-up, for reasons unknown to him (yes it is his fault, but he cannot seem to realize this) were starting to take their toll on him. Losing Shallan may actually hurt him enough to make him vulnerable enough for someone like... huh Danlan... to try to manipulate him... I mean, there is nothing to try to get what you want out of a man than to take the heartbroken one, sadden for having failed at everyone of his relationships, and to give him what he yearns to have: love. 

This would certainly be unexpected and complicated not to mention it would ruin the expectations of most readers in terms of "love triangle"....

3 hours ago, DSC01 said:

Where is that coming from? I assume a WoB of some kind. I guess I missed it.

I suppose my wording was imprecise, regardless. I shouldn't say that it won't be a big deal because I'm sure the death of Highprince will cause a huge uproar. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that everyone keeps clutching their pearls over this enormous trespass that dear little Adolin has committed, and I think everyone is overreacting on that front.

I'm not saying that there will be no consequences for Adolin personally, and that the aftermath is all going to be the political consequences of a Highprince's death. I just don't think that people are focusing on the right things when it comes to Adolin.

So many people view it as this huge sin that he committed, and that just doesn't match up with other events, in my view. What about Jasnah and many other nobles' habit of hiring assassins? What about the fact that the official plan for dealing with Sadeas was to corner him into a duel and kill him that way? While there are circumstances that make this particular killing different than the ones that the Alethi seem to just accept, the idea that Adolin did something that is light years away from normal Alethi behavior (and that it is one of the greatest moral failings imaginable) seems way off to me.

No it isn't from a WoB and it was highly inconclusive. I would just say it has been stated we may not have been thinking along the right lines. Therefore, words has it on the fandom we aren't stirring the kettle in the right direction.

I think you are, essentially right. I do think most people are making too much of a big deal over Adolin murdering Sadeas. The same people aren't tearing their shirts open for Jasnah murdering fleeing tugs nor are they doing it for Szeth having murdered countless of people for feeble reasons. Why? Because Jasnah is a Radiant and Szeth is assumed to be one as well: therefore they have the moral superiority. The fact a spren chose them implies they have done something right even if they may have done a great deal of terrible things to get there. Adolin doesn't have a spren nor does he carry the promises to be a Radiant such as Szeth. He also is the Good Boy, the one character profile which never ends well in most stories: the Good Boy never gets the girl, he is always either boring or downright evil. Therefore, when dear little Adolin trust a knife within good old Sadeas in a fit of anger while he mind snapped under the stress and couldn't control himself anymore, most people take it he is going with Odium. I mean, anger, killing and Odium do fit within the same sentences. 

This is how you get one of the most popular theory: Adolin will become Odium's champion. I say, this will never happen, of this I am utterly convinced, but it doesn't stop most people from thinking it may. The fact Jasnah was just as enraged about those thugs, the fact Kaladin is an anger-filled individual does not seem to cause issue to many because they are... special Radiants. They aren't "available" to become Odium's pawn.

The other very popular theory wants Adolin will get severely punished because he did kill a man in a brutal way. Murdering a Highprince can have you either executed or exiled: it wasn't for nothing Brandon had Adolin muse over these facts in the storm cellar. It was enough for another large percentage of the readers to think he will get most likely banished, not to forget it actually make sense to many, because it would open the door wide for Kaladin which is the preferred ship, I'd say.

I think you are, therefore right. Adolin will not suffer drastic legal consequences. I'd also point out, when asked about Adolin, Brandon never used the word "consequences" preferring to use the word "ramifications". My thoughts are thus Adolin's actions will be formally accepted, considering all the evil Sadeas has been doing, but it will cause an avalanche of events which won't be pleasant for dear little Adolin. My thoughts are thus, as I stated in a previous message, the absence of a punishment will actually be worst for Adolin than actually getting one. He expects to be punish. He thinks he did bad, but when the punishment does not come, he'd be left with a great deal lot of guilt, a slap on the wrist and basically nothing to hold onto. If he feels his actions deserved a punishment (and I think he will), then not getting it means he will never felt as if he was paying for his crime. His guilt will increase, dramatically. He will be remove from the only avenue allowing him to process through his emotions, being doing a penance, by redeeming himself through a hardship such as exile he feels he deserves. 

So what will he do next? 

This may be one of the ramifications we are bond to see. The Alethi laws may forgive Adolin, but will he forgive himself and what will it takes for him to do so? The same could be said for Dalinar.

1 hour ago, Argel said:

In Alethi eyes there is probably a big difference between doing it yourself and hiring an assassin.

Speaking of that, I suppose pinning the murder on one of the conspiracies/secret societies could be a possibility. Where was Amaram at the time....?

Smuggling Taln out of the city?

[Rasarr]

Amaram was smuggling himself and Taln into Urithiru, IIRC. But they could try to shove this onto any of Roshar's many secret society; Almighty knows there's enough of them running around that any one of them could be implicated into Sadeas' murder.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Rasarr