Long Game 24: The Godless City

[Renegade he/him]

Oh, didn't see that. 

[Amanuensis he/him]

Guess this means I should probably send a PM Mailliw's way  

[STINK he/him]

29 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said:

Stink, I'll help you out with a vote on Len. 

Question, who is Len?

[Orlok Tsubodai]

@Amanuensis, I'm on mobile, so forgive me for not quoting your post - instead I'm just going to refer to parts of it and respond.

I'll start with your stance on ties - that you'll be suspicious of anyone who instigates them, and believe them to be a bad think. I'll say now that I think there is every chance that I'll instigate a tie during this game - you say that the risk of a villager dying is to significant - perhaps, but that risk exists whenever we lynch anyway. Whilst there is a greater risk that we do lynch an innocent with two eliminators being both up to be lynched is an unlikely occurance, I believe that the more complete picture we can gain of a lynch through understanding both alignments can be worth it.

Regarding lurkers, whilst I do agree it ought to be discouraged, I think that a focus on lurkers is unhelpful - it isn't alignment indicative for many players, and an organised campaign against lurking provides a fantastic opportunity for distracting the lynch from more serious discussion.

I'd also point out that playstyles do differ, and that we can't expect every player - indeed, most players, to be as active as you are, or to post as frequently. I prefer, for example, to not immediately put down my thoughts on every development, and instead to think about the thread - which entails watching it and often not posting. Equally, when I have little time, I try to keep up with the thread and post later - reading the thread when I can is helpful in keeping on track and making more informed posts upon my return.

Regarding your advice to roles, I'll only comment to express some disagreement with your advice to Legionnaires.

Whilst they certainly can be used as a protective role, doing so to protect experienced players comes at a cost of removing experienced voices from the thread every other turn, delaying full analysis of the lynch. You're right - detainment by a legionnaire doesn't prevent the eliminators making a kill - but it does prevent an evil player using a role ability, and gives the legionnaire an opportunity to get their reactions in real time. As such, I'd advocate that legionnaires target those they believe to be suspicious, and leave it to the bodyguards to protect the players most likely to be attacked.

 

 

[Mailliw73 he/him]

9 minutes ago, STINK said:

Question, who is Len?

Elenion. 

[little wilson she/her]

Orlok, most lynch analysis doesn't happen in the night immediately following. It happens in the day lynch discussion/analysis and PMs. Sometimes it happens days/nights later. So I don't think it's terribly bad for a "loud voice" (since you don't have to be "experienced" to analyze a lot) to be arrested for 24 hours. It's protecting them until the day when there's a lot more time to discuss. Additionally, some players are just generally quieter during the night. I usually am, because I don't like to draw even more attention toward me than I'm typically likely to get. I will say right now that I have no intention of making a single post in the thread this coming night. Why? Because if I post, I let the eliminators know that I'm not arrested and therefore they can target me. If I don't post, they have to wonder: is she arrested? Or is she open? They don't know. It's sort of like not telling people your role even if you're just a vanilla villager. If everyone but one person posts, the eliminators know exactly who is arrested.

Moving on though, I'd agree that if the Legionnaire has someone they suspect, they should arrest that person, since it does stop them from using that action and if they're an eliminator, it cuts them out of the doc for discussion. Even better if that person is a strategist/manipulator/information-gatherer. The more active the player, the more damage arresting them will do, because they won't be able to talk. Let's say that Maill is evil and someone roleclaims Dula to him right as the day ends, and then he gets arrested and can't tell his team about that claim? His team will be running off of outdated information for the kill. They really should kill the Dula, but they don't know about the Dula and won't until the night is over and Maill can talk again. (Sorry, Maill. Using you as an example because you're the one most likely to get claims like that)

So if you have someone you suspect, arrest them. If you don't, go for an active strategist/manipulator/information-gatherer. Go for an active, talkative player. If they're a villager, there's no harm done for them and you'll be able to talk to them and perhaps come to trust them more, as Aman was suggesting. If they're an eliminator, you've just removed a heavy hitter from their team on a critical turn--the night, when they plan out the kills and other role actions. You've just cut off their ability to use their own action. Depending on who it is, you might be removing the leader of their team. So they'll be running around with their head cut off until their leader returns. Who knows what mistakes could be made?

Note: all of the above is made on the assumption that there is an eliminator team starting with more than one player on it. Which, as we all know, may or may not be the case. I feel it safer to assume that it is the case.

[STINK he/him]

Can I be jailed?

[Ecthelion III he/him]

Araris Stink

I know it's traditional of me to always put an explanation with my votes but at this point it's just random...

[STINK he/him]

I will never complain about random votes.

Unless they're on me 

Edited July 28, 2016 by STINK

[Elenion he/him]

It seems like we've gotten all the logic we're going to get from Stink.

And I'll put a poke on Sart.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Elenion

[Amanuensis he/him]

52 minutes ago, OrlokTsubodai said:

I'll start with your stance on ties - that you'll be suspicious of anyone who instigates them, and believe them to be a bad think. I'll say now that I think there is every chance that I'll instigate a tie during this game - you say that the risk of a villager dying is to significant - perhaps, but that risk exists whenever we lynch anyway. Whilst there is a greater risk that we do lynch an innocent with two eliminators being both up to be lynched is an unlikely occurance, I believe that the more complete picture we can gain of a lynch through understanding both alignments can be worth it.

I definitely think killing multiple players at once can be useful, I just think it should be done sparingly, and not until we have a bit more information to work with. Right now the only thing I know for certain is that there are villagers, secret roles, and at least one eliminator. I'd rather not immediately jump to any conclusions, such as there being multiple eliminator teams, because if we try to combat that by killing as many people as we can as quickly as possible and it turns out we're wrong, it could end up putting us at a severe disadvantage. I would rather see the results of the first two nights before I make any judgments like that, and practice caution by keeping the number of casualties down to what's typical; one a cycle, plus whatever the eliminators attempt.

52 minutes ago, OrlokTsubodai said:

Regarding lurkers, whilst I do agree it ought to be discouraged, I think that a focus on lurkers is unhelpful - it isn't alignment indicative for many players, and an organised campaign against lurking provides a fantastic opportunity for distracting the lynch from more serious discussion.

I hope I didn't try to imply that they should be focused. I only want people to take note of them, and try to reel them into the game whenever they can, particularly when there are no better leads.

52 minutes ago, OrlokTsubodai said:

I'd also point out that playstyles do differ, and that we can't expect every player - indeed, most players, to be as active as you are, or to post as frequently. I prefer, for example, to not immediately put down my thoughts on every development, and instead to think about the thread - which entails watching it and often not posting. Equally, when I have little time, I try to keep up with the thread and post later - reading the thread when I can is helpful in keeping on track and making more informed posts upon my return.

Though I would certainly love everyone to be as active as me, I acknowledge and accept that it won't happen. I'll still do my best to encourage activity, as well as inspire others to do the same in my absence, mostly due to the various benefits associated with activity. Using you as an example, purposely holding back your thoughts so that you can think it through more thoroughly is certainly commendable. I am a fan of forcing knee-jerk reactions, however. Give someone enough time to deliberate about a response and they can systematically strip it of anything suspicious, when they might have said something that would give them away. Another thing is when games get near the end, you'll see significant drops in thread activity in general, usually because all of the vocal players were killed off. If all the villagers remain quiet and passive, I feel that's the same thing as giving eliminators the win.

52 minutes ago, OrlokTsubodai said:

Regarding your advice to roles, I'll only comment to express some disagreement with your advice to Legionnaires.

Whilst they certainly can be used as a protective role, doing so to protect experienced players comes at a cost of removing experienced voices from the thread every other turn, delaying full analysis of the lynch. You're right - detainment by a legionnaire doesn't prevent the eliminators making a kill - but it does prevent an evil player using a role ability, and gives the legionnaire an opportunity to get their reactions in real time. As such, I'd advocate that legionnaires target those they believe to be suspicious, and leave it to the bodyguards to protect the players most likely to be attacked.

Wilson pretty much covered all of my thoughts. Joe clarified before the game began that the Arrest only lasts the night. So, when a Villager gets Arrested, they only lose one form of communication (the thread) while simultaneously gaining another (the doc). In the case of eliminators they lose two forms of communication (the thread and the doc) which means they're unable to manipulate villagers or work with their teammates. Meanwhile, the villager may not be able to use their power for that night turn, but at least they're guaranteed to survive the night. As for the eliminator they end up roleblocked, which inevitably helps the village.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Amanuensis

[jaimeleecee she/her]

Sorry about my inactivity at the start of game, I was at an amazing concert last night and just could not be bothered  sorry! I read a little this morning and just finished getting caught up.  My activity will be spotty for the next week or so just because I have a lot of traveling and events coming up that are going to be fun and will take my attention away, also my relationship needed me to spend a little less time in front of the computer the last couple of weeks so if anyone is wondering why I dropped off the face of the earth in docs that is why sorry.  I am getting back to some level of normalcy so bare with me here!

Because of my potential spotty activity I am going to ask that if people really want a response from me on something to PM me (when it is allowed) as I am more likely to see that right away and respond rather than trying to stay caught up in thread when I am busy, but I will do my best.  I have to admit am feeling a little lost starting out this game because of all the uncertainty with the elim roles, but this should prove to be very interesting to say the least!

[Elenion he/him]

Just now, Amanuensis said:

I am a fan of forcing knee-jerk reactions, however. Give someone enough time to deliberate about a response and they can systematically strip it of anything suspicious, when they might have said something that would give them away.

I agree with this as well: hasty reactions tend to snap webs of lies.

[STINK he/him]

Eh, I'm pretty great with my hasty reactions

[Elenion he/him]

Just now, STINK said:

Eh, I'm pretty great with my hasty reactions

Trying to picture you as an elim. Laughing.

[STINK he/him]

Picture me as any role, and I'll still be laughing

[Magestar he/him]

1 minute ago, Elenion said:

I agree with this as well: hasty reactions tend to snap webs of lies.

If you are going to have a web of lies, you should be prepared for hasty responses.  Little pieces of paper, with pre-organized responses to different methods of attack, nearly always help.  

[Elenion he/him]

Just now, Magestar said:

If you are going to have a web of lies, you should be prepared for hasty responses.  Little pieces of paper, with pre-organized responses to different methods of attack, nearly always help.  

I don't know because I've never been an elim. 

[Magestar he/him]

Neither have I.  This is my first game.  

Who says you need to be an Elim to have a web of lies? 

Edited July 28, 2016 by Magestar

[Elenion he/him]

1 minute ago, Magestar said:

Neither have I.  This is my first game.  

Who says you need to be an Elim to have a web of lies? 

Lying villagers are fine, but if you slip there's a good chance you'll get lynched. There's a time to lie and a time to play it straight.

[little wilson she/her]

Just because you're an eliminator doesn't mean you have a web of lies. There's such a thing as a mostly-honest eliminator.

[STINK he/him]

You can actually both lie and be straight at the same time, it's a little thing called planking.

[Magestar he/him]

Yep.  Good abs workout.  Nice on your biceps too.

[Elenion he/him]

Just now, STINK said:

You can actually both lie and be straight at the same time, it's a little thing called planking.

*groans*

[Mailliw73 he/him]

49 minutes ago, little wilson said:

Moving on though, I'd agree that if the Legionnaire has someone they suspect, they should arrest that person, since it does stop them from using that action and if they're an eliminator, it cuts them out of the doc for discussion. Even better if that person is a strategist/manipulator/information-gatherer. The more active the player, the more damage arresting them will do, because they won't be able to talk. Let's say that Maill is evil and someone roleclaims Dula to him right as the day ends, and then he gets arrested and can't tell his team about that claim? His team will be running off of outdated information for the kill. They really should kill the Dula, but they don't know about the Dula and won't until the night is over and Maill can talk again. (Sorry, Maill. Using you as an example because you're the one most likely to get claims like that)

It's all good. Joe uses me more than anyone else does

4 minutes ago, Elenion said:

Lying villagers are fine, but if you slip there's a good chance you'll get lynched. There's a time to lie and a time to play it straight.

True. Doesn't mean it's a bad idea. My survival isn't always the most vital thing for the village.

3 minutes ago, little wilson said:

Just because you're an eliminator doesn't mean you have a web of lies. There's such a thing as a mostly-honest eliminator.

Just because you're a villager doesn't mean you don't have a web of lies.