unknown shards We haven't known Trell yet

[+Child of Hodor]

Most of the few clues we have point to Odium, but they are far from conclusive. The biggest one depends on if you believe the shards physical manifestations are always color coded: Preservation White, Ruin Black, Odium is red (Stormspren are red, the transformed Parshendi have glowing red eyes)

" Trellium is a silvery metal with a red cast to it, and dark red spots similar to rust.^["http://coppermind.net/wiki/Trellium

The Haze of Red from BoM chapter 28:

The light ahead suddenly rolled outward, and Wax found that they’d been rounding a planet. They stood high above it, and had stepped from darkness into sunlight, which let Wax see the world below, bathed in a calm, cool light.
Beyond that hung a haze of red. All around, pressing in upon the world. He could feel it choking him, a miasma of dread and destruction.

Odium has been on Scadrial and Trell was a god worshipped long ago on Scadrial.

Quote

Kogiopsis
Given that we now know that Odium can 'make it possible' for people to use magic that draws on him on other planets, has he done this anywhere besides Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson
Odium has been active on all other planets, including several we haven't seen yet.

(source)

"Trelagism was a religion in Scadrial before the Ascension of the Lord Ruler and the establishment of the Final Empire worshipped by the Nelazan." http://coppermind.net/wiki/Trelagism#In_The_Bands_of_Mourning

Rust & Ruin is a common curse on Scadrial, as referenced above Trellium has red spots that look like rust. The people of Scadrial had some awareness of Rust as force and associated it with the destructive power Ruin and this was passed down through the curse. Brandon hinted that "Rust & Ruin" should be looked at carefully to understand the Trell Religion.

What's in a name?  Rayse Trell sounds like Wastrel. Trell could be Rayse's last name and if you say it together you get:

Wastrel - "literary A wasteful or good-for-nothing person. http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/wastrel"

Odium is someone who wants to lay waste to all threats to his power in the cosmere. It's a lame pun, but I wouldn't rule it out.

[Mason Wheeler]

A few years ago at a signing in Seattle, before Words of Radiance came out, I asked Brandon if King Gavilar's cryptic final words ("tell my brother he must find the most important words a man can say") were his own or a Death Rattle.  He said that they were Gavilar's own words.

Then I asked if, seeing as how some concepts tend to cross worlds sometimes, if Miles's last words ranting about Trell and the final metal were his own or came from somewhere else.  He grinned and said that's a very good question, and gave me a RAFO card.

Relevant?  Hard to say...

Edited July 15, 2016 by Mason Wheeler

[Espella]

I was reading the original trilogy earlier and looked for some ideas when they talked about religions, the original Trelagism involved sort of a conflict between night and day (the followers didn't like the day and thought it was Trell's evil brother or something), which might be derived from the Darkside and Dayside on Taldain (sorry guys I haven't actually read White Sand yet).

Of course that would mean that Bavadin had been hanging around on Scadrial way before the Final Empire if he was in a position to influence religions, or a whole bunch of Darkside worldhoppers decided to take residence on Scadrial and their teachings sort of evolved into it, neither of which seems very likely to me. Oh well.

Nothing else really stood out to me, unless want to go crazy conspiracy mode and say it was actually founded by Darkside worldhoppers to get a whole bunch of people to chart the stars for them so they could figure out where Scadrial was relative to Taldain and the rest of the Cosmere in the physical realm.

 

[Sam Script he/him]

@Child of Hodor I don't think the Trelagism in preAscension era is the same religion in era2, however.

Excellent quotes and proof provides, it tends to be like Trell is related to Rayse, but we can't yet say It is just Rayse.

[asterion137 he/him]

4 hours ago, Espella said:

I was reading the original trilogy earlier and looked for some ideas when they talked about religions, the original Trelagism involved sort of a conflict between night and day (the followers didn't like the day and thought it was Trell's evil brother or something), which might be derived from the Darkside and Dayside on Taldain (sorry guys I haven't actually read White Sand yet).

Of course that would mean that Bavadin had been hanging around on Scadrial way before the Final Empire if he was in a position to influence religions, or a whole bunch of Darkside worldhoppers decided to take residence on Scadrial and their teachings sort of evolved into it, neither of which seems very likely to me. Oh well.

Nothing else really stood out to me, unless want to go crazy conspiracy mode and say it was actually founded by Darkside worldhoppers to get a whole bunch of people to chart the stars for them so they could figure out where Scadrial was relative to Taldain and the rest of the Cosmere in the physical realm.

 

im sure many people have brought this up but the Shin call the Sun the god of gods or something like that

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Hm... I just think that odium is too obvious for Trell. But you are right to say that odium might somehow be involved.

I'm not sure how the intent of autonomy factors in to what this hostile force is doing either...

The phrase "rusts and ruin" would initially imply that rust is associated with ruin... But given we have a WoB that says it references Trell... Well "ruin" is obviously a reference to ruin, but "rusts" could be a lot of things. Is Trell in some way related to ruin? Hm...

Also with the color codes, there are sixteen shards so the colors aren't necessarily going to be laid out so cleanly as we saw them with ruin and preservation.

[Ari he/him]

On 12/07/2016 at 9:21 AM, Lightspine said:

The spike mentioned is believed to be of Trelliun, however.

I agree it probably is "Trellium", (or more specifically, Bavadinium or maybe on an outside chance, Raysium) that's certainly my favoured theory. But just because a lot of people believe something doesn't rule out something contradictory being true.

On 15/07/2016 at 11:21 AM, Sam Script said:

Let me remind that there were never comments indicating that Autonomy is allied with Odium. We are not sure about their relationship at all. Yes we all know Hoid had beef toward both of 'em, but the reasons could possibly be seperate.

Also, when do we have quotes about Svrakiss? I'll appreciate your explanation cuz I have no idea what you're saying about it and Odium.

Interesting thoughts, I've noticed that as well, but no further thinking as I believe it is not referred to Connection. But yeah, we should take it in, too. Thanks anyway

Gotta endorse what Sam says here. I think Autonomy and Odium are probably aligned, but that's from reading between the lines. That's not confirmed anywhere. It's all about observing that Odium went to great risk to Shatter both shards on Sel, which makes a lot more sense if he had help from Autonomy to do so.

[Sam Script he/him]

2 hours ago, Ari said:

I think Autonomy and Odium are probably aligned, but that's from reading between the lines. That's not confirmed anywhere. It's all about observing that Odium went to great risk to Shatter both shards on Sel, which makes a lot more sense if he had help from Autonomy to do so.

Yes I agree that Rayse would need allies for his final goal thing, but it doesn't mean that Autonomy must be one of them.

I believe that Hoid doesn't like Bavadin is because that Autonomy is self-centric, contrary to Hoid's active savior acts. Maybe Bavadin could've changed something in the past (maybe Hoid turned to him for help), but he just did nothing instead, thus let the disaster occured.

We'd better see Autonomy as a neutral Shard in cosmere politics. It fits the intent. And being conservative on things we're not sure is fine.

[PallonianFire he/him]

On 7/14/2016 at 5:21 PM, Sam Script said:

Let me remind that there were never comments indicating that Autonomy is allied with Odium. We are not sure about their relationship at all. Yes we all know Hoid had beef toward both of 'em, but the reasons could possibly be seperate.

Also, when do we have quotes about Svrakiss? I'll appreciate your explanation cuz I have no idea what you're saying about it and Odium.

Re: Autonomy/Odium, the wording in the Letter does indicate that Hoid's dispute with Bavadin and Rayse is collective, not separate. There's more to this theory for Autonomy=Trell, but I can't discuss it on this forum. 

Spoiler

If you've read the prose White Sand, there's a thread on that board about it.

Re: svrakiss, again, this is theory. But the svrakiss are described as enemies of Dominion in Elantris, half-demon/half-ghosts that can possess the bodies of men—and we know that Odium splintered Dominion. Additionally, the red eyes of the Faceless Immortal in BoM are reminiscent of the Parshendi stormform. There are parallels and intersections to be drawn.

 

[Sam Script he/him]

3 hours ago, PallonianFire said:

Re: Autonomy/Odium, the wording in the Letter does indicate that Hoid's dispute with Bavadin and Rayse is collective, not separate. There's more to this theory for Autonomy=Trell, but I can't discuss it on this forum.

Quote

You have accused me of arrogance in my quest. You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin. Both accusations are true.

  --- <1st Letter>

This can't guarantee that they're allies. I thought they were at first, but gradually I found that this sentence did, actually, not indicate that. It would be a logical flaw.

3 hours ago, PallonianFire said:

Re: svrakiss, again, this is theory. But the svrakiss are described as enemies of Dominion in Elantris, half-demon/half-ghosts that can possess the bodies of men—and we know that Odium splintered Dominion. Additionally, the red eyes of the Faceless Immortal in BoM are reminiscent of the Parshendi stormform. There are parallels and intersections to be drawn.

Svrakiss is enemy of Jaddeth. It's just a myth character in Sel mythology. Yes the mythology in cosmere often contains some part of truth, but you can't just think that Jaddeth or Domi must be Shards. Putting things together doesn't mean it is definitely right, we still need more evidence. Over-connecting is usually off-tracked as well.

[PallonianFire he/him]

Well yeah, obviously these things aren't confirmed. That's why I emphasized that it's a theory.

16 hours ago, Sam Script said:

Quote

You have accused me of arrogance in my quest. You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin. Both accusations are true.

  --- <1st Letter>

This can't guarantee that they're allies. I thought they were at first, but gradually I found that this sentence did, actually, not indicate that. It would be a logical flaw.

"My grudge" is singular, implying that it is one grudge against two people, therefore implying that the two people are/were in league together. Odium is scared of Harmony, so it would make sense that he'd look for an old ally to take the brunt of things when he moves against Harmony...and it's not a stretch at all to see that Autonomy wouldn't like the way Harmony is running things. 

And yes, we don't know for sure that Jaddeth is Dominion, but the circumstantial evidence (strict hierarchical structure of the religion, for one thing) points to it being the case. And again, svrakiss as the Set's "Faceless Immortals" lines up with what we've seen of voidspren doing and looking like in SA.

There isn't much direct evidence against this being the case. We just don't have all the puzzle pieces to fully confirm it, yet.

[Argel he/him]

11 hours ago, PallonianFire said:

therefore implying that the two people are/were in league together.

That's not necessarily true. For example, they could have both independently voted for Hoid for the Worst Jesk of the Year award. Or they were dating to the two hottest women in Jesk school and he was jealous. Or they both bought lottery tickets for the Jesk raffle and won the top prizes. So there is an implied connection, but it doesn't prove they were in league together. 

[PallonianFire he/him]

12 hours ago, Argel said:

it doesn't prove they were in league together. 

Yes, I get that it's not 100% confirmed. I've repeatedly said that this is theory. All people have come back with is "but we don't know for SURE." Well, of course we don't. We haven't gotten that info yet. If someone has actual evidence to shoot down the theory, offer it, instead of just constantly saying it's not proven—because that's kind of the point of theories.

I'm taking the evidence we have and lining it up in the way that makes the most sense. Occam's Razor says that Bavadin and Rayse together perpetuated some grievance against Hoid in the past, and he's holding a grudge (singular) against them.

 

[Argel he/him]

@PallonianFire, I think the problem is you talk about it as if it is confirmed, so people feel obligated to address that. We've also seen a lot of theories recently with poor foundations, so I think several of us are even more inclined to focus on that. 

Note that I specifically asked if the ancient Trell and the current Trell are the same, so I was paying attention. 

[PallonianFire he/him]

I dunno how me repeatedly saying "this isn't confirmed" seems like I'm assuming it is confirmed, but okay.

But yeah, there's definitely something there with the differences between Trelagism and Trellism. They seem to each have a very different focus for the faith.

[Sam Script he/him]

Sure we all should admit that it's just a theory, and theories are not 100% sure, but if one theory is more deducted and logical, evidence-based, that would make the one more meaningful, can we all agree with that?

It's not the problem of who's right who's wrong. For Harmony's sake, let's just focus on the thread and keep away from quarrels, all fine?:)) I don't wanna summon Nergaoul to come here lol

[Ari he/him]

On 17/07/2016 at 9:46 PM, Sam Script said:

Yes I agree that Rayse would need allies for his final goal thing, but it doesn't mean that Autonomy must be one of them.

I believe that Hoid doesn't like Bavadin is because that Autonomy is self-centric, contrary to Hoid's active savior acts. Maybe Bavadin could've changed something in the past (maybe Hoid turned to him for help), but he just did nothing instead, thus let the disaster occured.

We'd better see Autonomy as a neutral Shard in cosmere politics. It fits the intent. And being conservative on things we're not sure is fine.

And now I have to disagree a bit, heh.

You're making the mistake of applying the Shard's Intent to itself. For example, Preservation didn't want to preserve himself, in fact he committed an act of profound self-sacrifice in order to safeguard humanity on Scadrial from Ruin. (And likewise, Ruin didn't want to try and destroy Vin-as-Preservation before he had at least ruined Scadrial) A shard's intent seems to apply more to their attitude to people in general, as opposed to themselves or cosmere-wide events. Likewise, even if Autonomy is interpreted as the definition of being self-sufficient as opposed to something more akin to "free the people!" kind of Autonomy, it doesn't mean that Bavadin is necessarily neutral as a matter of course in every dispute between other shards, it might just mean he believes that people who aren't Vessels deserve a chance to be free and make their own decisions. So, in essence, we could be looking at an attitude anywhere between Hoid and Frost from that shard- we really don't know unless we get to hear a bit more behind-the-scenes stuff relating to White Sand than is apparently known to date.

[Sam Script he/him]

Yup, it's kinda speculation. Intents are just big directions of how Shards act. So Bavadin might be neutral for his Autonomy intent, might not be neutral for his personal decision as well.

We've secretly got an WoB that Autonomy means "no needs to lean on others", it could be interpreted that Autonomy kinda focus on self. Neutral right?

The problems of Intents and acts often went a little too far. Anyone could explain them in his or her own ways. It's not quite a strong proof for theories. I would prefer to see Intents only, rather than what Shards have done in books.

[Argel he/him]

15 hours ago, Sam Script said:

Sure we all should admit that it's just a theory, and theories are not 100% sure, but if one theory is more deducted and logical, evidence-based, that would make the one more meaningful, can we all agree with that?

There have been plenty of detailed theories based on faulty premises that at first glance appeared to be everything you stated. And thanks to e.g. head canon biases, what you or the OP may think is well thought out may not actually be the case.  There are also the collective biases that creep in over time. For example, it's not hard to find posts that assume Autonomy and Odium are working together in the forums these days. And every now and then someone new shows up with a completely different but valid interpretation of something, showing that the 17thShard has developed it's own biases/subcluture/views on the Cosmere that may not be entirely correct.

It's also possible no one has taken the time to post a detailed counter-theory. Arguably the OP is the first (at least in a long time) effort to "prove" that whoever is interfering with Scadrial is one of the shards we have not seen yet. Does that mean that up till that post we were supposed to assume the shard is Odium or Autonomy because those were the only theories with in-depth analysis up till that point?!

And many of the theories are really hypothesis, because there is not enough information to prove them right or wrong. And because of that, the hard work put into the analysis does not mean the theory is right or has a better chance of being right. If Brandon's plan for something is X, and there is a novella length, highly convincing theory attempting to prove Y, the odds of that theory being correct are still 0%. Similarly, the odds of a hastily written couple sentence theory for is X is still 100%. 

That's the problem with speculation -- a well thought out theory can be wrong and a shot in the dark can be right. Quality can matter, but it's not a given.

[Ari he/him]

8 hours ago, Sam Script said:

Yup, it's kinda speculation. Intents are just big directions of how Shards act. So Bavadin might be neutral for his Autonomy intent, might not be neutral for his personal decision as well.

We've secretly got an WoB that Autonomy means "no needs to lean on others", it could be interpreted that Autonomy kinda focus on self. Neutral right?

The problems of Intents and acts often went a little too far. Anyone could explain them in his or her own ways. It's not quite a strong proof for theories. I would prefer to see Intents only, rather than what Shards have done in books.

The problem with over-analysing a Shard's intent is simply how little we see or hear from the Vessels. The most we've ever known about a Vessel is from Sazed, and he's pretty enigmatic since he's Ascended. (probably for good reasons, both in-world and authorial) We have so little data that it's definitely easy to twist in a lot of ways and make assumptions about motivations, but there are some solid counter-examples to a few assumptions people had about Intents, so while I agree with you in general that speculating heavily upon Intents is useless without more info and knowing in general how to interpret each Intent, you simply stumbled into one of the areas where we actually know enough to make a call that the Vessels can at least use their powers in ways that contradict their intents where the Vessel themselves are concerned, although we don't know all the details of why just yet.

[Argel he/him]

"Intent" is a great example of for lack of a better term, group head canon, or maybe just group canon? Anyway, a Sharder came up with that word, but pretty much everyone on here talks about it as if it's 10000000% canon.

Anyway, I suspect one reason a shard can act contrary to its Intent is survival instinct. That doesn't explain everything, but may offer some insight.

Speaking of insight (maybe), what if the Intent is the trick to defeating a shard? Preservation had to Ruin himself to take out Ruin. And we know D&D were lovers, so Devotion would in theory be in play naturally. Not quite as sure about Dominion. Honor on Roshar seems obvious without knowing the details.

[Sam Script he/him]

1 hour ago, Argel said:

And we know D&D were lovers, so Devotion would in theory be in play naturally. Not quite as sure about Dominion. Honor on Roshar seems obvious without knowing the details.

Unfortunately we are actually not sure whether D&D are lovers or not.

Quote

Q: Relationship between Skai and Aona?

A: RAFO.

 

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Hmm, given WS's release, the Trelagist belief of Nalt and his lone jealous eye/sun brings a whole new perspective, especially with the Dayside/Nightside contrast. I wonder if Bavadin is still alive, or perhaps the Shard belongs to another Vessel, and their perception of Autonomy is a genocidal decision to remove perceuived threats to it's and the humans it guards Autonomy....

/shrug

[Ari he/him]

5 hours ago, Argel said:

"Intent" is a great example of for lack of a better term, group head canon, or maybe just group canon? Anyway, a Sharder came up with that word, but pretty much everyone on here talks about it as if it's 10000000% canon.

Anyway, I suspect one reason a shard can act contrary to its Intent is survival instinct. That doesn't explain everything, but may offer some insight.

Speaking of insight (maybe), what if the Intent is the trick to defeating a shard? Preservation had to Ruin himself to take out Ruin. And we know D&D were lovers, so Devotion would in theory be in play naturally. Not quite as sure about Dominion. Honor on Roshar seems obvious without knowing the details.

Survival instinct doesn't address how Preservation could sacrifice himself- the two ways we can read that are that he defied his own Intent to save humans, or that for some reason preserving others is more important than preserving himself.

Either way it means that Shards don't necessarily have to treat themselves according to their intents.

As for the term Intent itself, it's another fan term that was coined to discuss a concept Brandon hadn't (at the time) made clear. Some people prefer the term Mandate, which Sazed talks about in the Hero of Ages chapter epigraphs. Intent is, however, the term everyone knows, and it's a concept that Brandon has implied is to some degree correct, as even he uses the word in Q&As. (you can check out the Coppermind on Intent for some relevant WoBs)

[Argel he/him]

7 hours ago, Ari said:

how Preservation could sacrifice himself

Well, that would be preserving his creations though, right? Or at least giving them the best shot he could.

Yeah, survival instinct doesn't explain a lot of things, but I think if shard is attacked directly they could respond despite their intent. I could be wrong, but I just have hard time believing that a vessel/shard could be coup de gras'd because its intent prevented it from defending itself. Seems anti-climatic....

Edited July 22, 2016 by Argel