Ym (possible spoilers?)

[King Krooked]

So I've been kicking around here and lurking for a few months and I think that I've noticed something. None of the other proto-Radiants were killed in their interludes. And since we learned that Stormlight can heal a Shardblade wound from Kaladin, I fully believe that Ym isn't dead. It makes sense to me that he is still alive.

[Mr. Staccato he/him]

It's Book Two of the Stormlight Archive so there's every possibility that Ym might still be alive and kicking in the further books, but just to put it out there, I always had this belief that only one of each of the Knight Orders would be reappearing in the books. This idea of mine has no explicitly factual basis since I'm only drawing this conclusion out from Pattern and Syl saying that they were the only one's of their kind that disobeyed and went looking for potential surgebinders.

 

Ym was supposed to be the chosen Truthwatcher of this generation's surgebinders, but since he died I guess that role was relegated to Renarin.

[galendo]

At first I kind of thought that we'd see more of Ym again.  I figured with his spren begging for Stormlight at the last moment he might be pulling a Jasnah -- disappearing and leaving a body in his wake.  After finishing the book, though, I changed my mind and decided the main purpose of that interlude was to imply that Radiants are sprouting up all over Roshar, to introduce Darkness, and to show that proto-Radiants are far from immortal.  By showing one sympathetic character bite the dust, Brandon ratchets up the tension regarding the safety of the other characters.

[Eki]

Darkness knew about stormlight regeneration, so I doubt he'd allow Ym to heal.

[Blackhoof]

Yeah I agree with galendo, I think it was to show that proto-Radiants are appearing in some numbers and that they re being hunted by a monster who is sometimes successful. Just because other assassination attempts have failed, doesn't make proto-Rads immortal, or the Ghostbloods or other groups hunting them incompetent (which they would look like if they didn't kill at least one of them).

[Pathfinder]

There was another thread with the same premise. In that post I checked and quoted the scene. Ym was out of stormlight. You cannot heal without it. Your body has a certain amount of time before you become brain dead enough that your soul departs and healing of any sort won't bring you back. 

Edited May 19, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Argel he/him]

Are the Ghostbloods hunting KRs? I didn't think we had a good idea of what they really want yet?

[Eki]

Are the Ghostbloods hunting KRs? I didn't think we had a good idea of what they really want yet?

I don't think they are, since they are trying to recruit Shallan. They only hunted Jasnah because her plans interfered with theirs somehow.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

It's Book Two of the Stormlight Archive so there's every possibility that Ym might still be alive and kicking in the further books, but just to put it out there, I always had this belief that only one of each of the Knight Orders would be reappearing in the books. This idea of mine has no explicitly factual basis since I'm only drawing this conclusion out from Pattern and Syl saying that they were the only one's of their kind that disobeyed and went looking for potential surgebinders.

 

Ym was supposed to be the chosen Truthwatcher of this generation's surgebinders, but since he died I guess that role was relegated to Renarin.

 

From what I understand, Renarin has been a proto-Radiant for quite some time which means, most likely, Ym and Renarin were both proto-Truthwatchers at the same point in time. 

[Argel he/him]

I don't think they are, since they are trying to recruit Shallan. They only hunted Jasnah because her plans interfered with theirs somehow.

 

If Mraize is to be believed, then it sounded like Jasnah tried to have one or more of them assassinated first:

 

“You killed Jasnah,” Shallan hissed. “Yes. After she, in turn, had assassinated a number of our members. You didn’t think her hands were clean of blood, did you, Veil?”  WoR p1056

[Jondesu he/him]

If Mraize is to be believed, then it sounded like Jasnah tried to have one or more of them assassinated first:

Eh, they "killed" her after, but that doesn't mean they didn't make the first attempt. Or maybe they sent people to simply steal her research or foul her plans first, and she killed them in self-defense or retaliation. Nothing about that statement, even if it's completely true, necessitates Jasnah having begun the hostilities between them.

jW

Edited May 20, 2016 by Jondesu

[Argel he/him]

Where did I ever suggest Jasnah initiated hostilities??

 

And you can't assassinate someone in self-defense, because assassination is premeditated, and self defense is not.

 

We know Jasnah was planning to meet with assassins the night Gavilar was assassinated and we saw Jasnah murder those thugs in front of Shallan. The Ghostbloods may have initiated hostilities, but it's not hard to imagine Jasnah escalating to assassinations first based on what we know.

[Jondesu he/him]

Where did I ever suggest Jasnah initiated hostilities??

And you can't assassinate someone in self-defense, because assassination is premeditated, and self defense is not.

We know Jasnah was planning to meet with assassins the night Gavilar was assassinated and we saw Jasnah murder those thugs in front of Shallan. The Ghostbloods may have initiated hostilities, but it's not hard to imagine Jasnah escalating to assassinations first based on what we know.

Oh, I don't doubt it. :-) The assassinations she ordered or carried out could have been to defend herself, though, just in the long-term, at war with this organization. It's not direct, spur of the moment, but it's still self defense (of a less morally sure nature, of course).

jW

[Argel he/him]

I wonder if she used Liss against them. This is probably another tie-in to how she is broken (i.e. that she might resort to using assassins sooner than later). Hopefully we will learn some more in SA3.

[Eki]

Hmm... I haven't really thought about it before, but many of Jasnah's actions don't really follow "Life before death"... I would have thought that oath prevented assassinations...

Also the alley scene. She and Shallan were in danger, but Jasnah deliberately tried to find people to kill.

So I guess that oath is very broad, or I've misinterpreted it.

You could argue that her actions in the long run were aligned to life, so to speak, but that's not how Kaladin's protection oaths worked: he couldn't cause the death of the king even if he thought it could save more people in the long run. That's a different oath of course, so yeah.

[maxal she/her]

Hmm... I haven't really thought about it before, but many of Jasnah's actions don't really follow "Life before death"... I would have thought that oath prevented assassinations...

Also the alley scene. She and Shallan were in danger, but Jasnah deliberately tried to find people to kill.

So I guess that oath is very broad, or I've misinterpreted it.

You could argue that her actions in the long run were aligned to life, so to speak, but that's not how Kaladin's protection oaths worked: he couldn't cause the death of the king even if he thought it could save more people in the long run. That's a different oath of course, so yeah.

 

All orders have different oaths and some orders have more demanding oaths than other. The Windrunners, it appears, have among the most demanding oaths as Kaladin has very little liberty when it comes to applying them.

 

Yes Jasnah deliberately tried to find and kill those people and yes it isn't an action Kaladin could have done without damaging his bond with Syl. She may have done the darkest action seen, to this day, by a Radiant and yet her bond did not suffer. Journey before destination apparently allowed Jasnah to kill in order to draft a lesson for Shallan: her intend being strong enough to go against the first oath.

 

We have to be careful into not extrapolating Kaladin (or Dalinar) to all Radiants. He is only one Radiant from one order: there are several others who do not prevent killing, if the intend is in accordance with the oaths. Shallan for instance was allowed to kill her parents.

[Ari he/him]

Did you see the body without any shenanigans? No? Then he's open for not-dying.

 

That said, I don't yet see any particular reason we'd need Ym for the story, unlike, say, Jasnah.

[Eki]

Well, in Shallan's case her bond wasn't very strong, and one of the acts was in self defence. But yeah, I agree about not extrapolating too much between Radiants.

[Lurky McLurkerson he/him]

It's Book Two of the Stormlight Archive so there's every possibility that Ym might still be alive and kicking in the further books, but just to put it out there, I always had this belief that only one of each of the Knight Orders would be reappearing in the books. This idea of mine has no explicitly factual basis since I'm only drawing this conclusion out from Pattern and Syl saying that they were the only one's of their kind that disobeyed and went looking for potential surgebinders.

 

Ym was supposed to be the chosen Truthwatcher of this generation's surgebinders, but since he died I guess that role was relegated to Renarin.

We've got a WoB that we will see another Windrunner (not a squire) speaking oaths in the next book, I believe.

[Pathfinder]

Hmm... I haven't really thought about it before, but many of Jasnah's actions don't really follow "Life before death"... I would have thought that oath prevented assassinations...

Also the alley scene. She and Shallan were in danger, but Jasnah deliberately tried to find people to kill.

So I guess that oath is very broad, or I've misinterpreted it.

You could argue that her actions in the long run were aligned to life, so to speak, but that's not how Kaladin's protection oaths worked: he couldn't cause the death of the king even if he thought it could save more people in the long run. That's a different oath of course, so yeah.

I had posted a response to this similar question in another thread. Life before death is in reference that killing one innocent to preserve the life of many is not acceptable. The men Jasnah killed we not innocent. They regular patrolled that area to hurt and kill people. Had she not done what she did, they would have continued to hurt and kill people. They attacked first. Yes, Jasnah knew what she was getting into and yes, she ended their lives when she did not have to, but at no point were those men innocent. Otherwise no order could fight the voidbringers without breaking their oaths as they are killing living beings. 

 

edit: to clarify, had Jasnah sent Shallan in alone, and let her die at their hands, so she could catch the killers "red handed" and thus have an excuse to kill them, then that would have broken the first vow. 

Edited May 24, 2016 by Pathfinder

[soulcastJam he/him]

I've always thought the first ideal was focused on yourself and not on how you interact with others.

[Pathfinder]

Way of Kings page 831

"Journey before destination. there are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished."

 

So killing one innocent is never worth saving ten. Jasnah was stopping three murderers, to protect the lives of countless innocents. She could have gone to the authorities and pushed her stature as a princess to get something done. She could have brought a group of soldiers or officers with her and apprehended the men, or she could end their lives. All could potentially accomplish the same goal of preventing the murderers from continuing to kill. The only difference is the first two could still result in the men getting back on the street and killing more people. 

[Jondesu he/him]

Neither of those other methods would have been wrong, or have violated her order's mandates. However, of course, neither did the method she chose, and it had the added benefit of allowing her to provide instruction to Shallan. Interestingly, however, Shallan's order takes a different view it seems, which means Pattern and Shallan both did not care for that particular choice.

jW

Edited May 25, 2016 by Jondesu

[Lurky McLurkerson he/him]

Isn't all of this dependent upon how the individual perceives their actions as well? Jasnah felt justified and that she was fulfilling her oath, so it stood.

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

Isn't all of this dependent upon how the individual perceives their actions as well? Jasnah felt justified and that she was fulfilling her oath, so it stood.

Possibly. Can't exactly remember Kals exact thoughts through the chapters, but it did seem at times that he agreed Elokhar needed to go. Plus, when he tried to use his abilities against Adolin on the practice grounds, they failed him. I don't know if this means he knew he shouldn't use his Windrunner abilities on Adolin, or if it was the bond forcing him to its will. Plus, he hadn't even said the third oath yet, to protect even those he hates, as long as it's right. Please correct where I'm wrong(because I'm sure I am lol).

Edited May 25, 2016 by The Ninja Yodeler