Quick Fix Game 14: Corruption in the Senate

[Amanuensis he/him]

To pass me gold.

So they spent their own gold (which is valuable and could have been saved for a critical situation) to give another player more gold? A player that at that point in time could be corrupt for all they know? I don't understand the motivation, especially when you had the opportunity to change your vote yourself when the bandwagon had already formed.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

I agree that on a metagame level, it's a good idea to discourage inactivity. In this game, however, that is far better accomplished with the Lynch. Most kill roles reveal alignment, meaning that killing inactives is useful in that game, not just in establishing the long-term meta. This is not the case with the dagger.

 

To pass me gold.

 

I don't understand -- are you saying that you got the gold the vote-manipulator spent, as well as whatever you got from the lynch? I was under the impression that spent gold vanishes, rather than passing on like items do.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Wonko the Sane

[Mailliw73 he/him]

Bags of boxings are items.

[A Joe in the Bush]

If you bribe a player to either change their vote or action, or make a jail PM, the player receives that gold. If you bribe A constable or an item, or to execute people, the constables collect the gold and redistribute it.

[Hellscythe he/him]

Why do we care about the alignment of inactives? Clanky

Edited March 31, 2016 by Hellscythe

[Amanuensis he/him]

Because that's information, which villagers need in order to win and eliminators want to reduce to make their victory easier. Either way, that is not the primary issue. It's the fact that this is a QF with 24 hour cycles, which is an extremely unrealistic amount of time to classify a player as inactive let alone kill them for it. As well as the fact that killing inactives is only sometimes important in the mid-late game stages.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Amanuensis

[A Joe in the Bush]

Players killed by the Dagger don't have their alignments revealed. I don't think there's any way for us to know, unless you can use the scanning papers on dead people. Joe, is that possible?

No. It is not possible.

[Hellscythe he/him]

I'm still lost on what information we get from someones alignment who hasn't posted.

[Amanuensis he/him]

What happened was a lone player decided to use their Dagger to kill a player who has not posted without consulting the thread first. As a result we learn nothing save for that individual's mindset. What should have happened is that he ask the thread what people think villagers with Daggers should do with them, perhaps even proposing the plan to kill inactives and even suggest Ripple himself to see who would go along with the plan and who would oppose it. If that happened and Ripple was a villager, it would be more likely that a Corrupt might agree with her death. If Ripple was Corrupt than they might reveal themselves by suggesting she not be killed. If we then decided as a group to hold off on killing Ripple and instead arrest inactives, we would then see her alignment and be able to use that as evidence against a player who either voted she be killed or be spared. THIS is my inherent issue with the situation / with killing inactives instead of arresting them, period. This and the fact that most likely a player is going to be arrested every cycle anyway. Adding an uneducated kill into the mix only dwindles our numbers faster (assuming that the killer and victim are both innocent).

 

Discussion is the most important thing for the village. It should always be instigated and never avoided. Discussion is what gives us insight, and without it we are doomed.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Amanuensis

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

Aman, on further consideration of everyone's points, I'm tempted to agree that we don't learn as much from inactive lynching as I'd previously implied. I am withdrawing that part of my opinion.

 

My vote remains on Alvron -- the manipulation of Mailliw's vote, while potentially explainable, still strikes me as somewhat convenient for Alv, and at the moment, that's the best suspicion I've got. But it's a far more tentative vote, likely to move by the end of the cycle. I still have some reservations about what Alvron is doing, but they are issues of strategy, not of alignment.

[Amanuensis he/him]

The only valid point, in my opinion, is the business with the items. I can understand that. But what I find hard to believe is that Alvron's was the only kill and it just so happened that the item Ripple had was a Ledger. It feels fabricated to me, as if Alvron made it up to support his point and is trying to avoid being arrested. The best lies for eliminators are the believable ones, the kind that can be sympathized with. He did the exact same thing in QF13 when Sart outed him as Strawman's killer. He lied about his role, claiming to be a healer, so that he would not be lynched. I get the distinct impression that he's doing the same thing; telling us exactly what we want to hear so we will leave him be.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Amanuensis

[STINK he/him]

Huh, I will say that my first thought on people asking why Mailliw's vote was moved and he got money, was that it was for a certain vote on who should be Governor

 

Paying for votes, are we?

[Adamir he/him]

 

 

But what I find hard to believe is that... it just so happened that the item Ripple had was a Ledger. It feels fabricated to me, as if Alvron made it up to support his point and is trying to avoid being arrested. The best lies for eliminators are the believable ones, the kind that can be sympathized with. He did the exact same thing in QF13 when Sart outed him as Strawman's killer. He lied about his role, claiming to be a healer, so that he would not be lynched. I get the distinct impression that he's doing the same thing; telling us exactly what we want to hear so we will leave him be.

 

I was going to wait for more information before posting, but keeping information hidden from your own team seems like it would cause far more harm than good. So, here goes.

 

Ripplygylf was a conspirator.

 

According to Alvron, he has a dagger and a ledger. The ledger came from me - I scanned Ripplygylf the same night he was murdered, getting the guilty verdict via my scan. If you believe me we can assume that Alvron is innocent not a conspirator, just a homicidally insane vigilante. The wounded gazelle gambit exists, but with regards to murdering one of your own, with no actual way to prove that they were a conspirator, it seems like a bit of a stretch.

 

Now for my two reasons why we shouldn't lynch Alvron. One, the evidence I put forwards suggests he is a villager. And two, far more importantly, should it look like an unavoidable lynch, everyone is going to bandwagon it in the hopes of getting the dagger and ledger.. Villagers to keep them out of eliminator hands and use them themselves, but more important, eliminators in the hopes of preventing scans and gaining a kill action. If we assume a quarter of our number are eliminators, that's a 1/4 chance of them getting the kill action, and a 3/4 chance of nothing significant changing except for our faction shrinking by one member.

[Amanuensis he/him]

I was going to wait for more information before posting, but keeping information hidden from your own team seems like it would cause far more harm than good. So, here goes.

 

Ripplygylf was a conspirator.

 

According to Alvron, he has a dagger and a ledger. The ledger came from me - I scanned Ripplygylf the same night he was murdered, getting the guilty verdict via my scan. If you believe me we can assume that Alvron is innocent not a conspirator, just a homicidally insane vigilante. The wounded gazelle gambit exists, but with regards to murdering one of your own, with no actual way to prove that they were a conspirator, it seems like a bit of a stretch.

 

Now for my two reasons why we shouldn't lynch Alvron. One, the evidence I put forwards suggests he is a villager. And two, far more importantly, should it look like an unavoidable lynch, everyone is going to bandwagon it in the hopes of getting the dagger and ledger.. Villagers to keep them out of eliminator hands and use them themselves, but more important, eliminators in the hopes of preventing scans and gaining a kill action. If we assume a quarter of our number are eliminators, that's a 1/4 chance of them getting the kill action, and a 3/4 chance of nothing significant changing except for our faction shrinking by one member.

 

So you not only didn't post on the first turn, but decided to use your ledger on another player who did not post instead of someone active, which would benefit us much more? I don't buy it.

 

If it's true that you used your ledger on Ripple than Alvron should have received her starting item, as every single player would have began with one. The only way that he would have got only a Dagger and a Ledger if she was active enough to use her item, which I find unlikely. Maybe we should start asking people who passed an item and who received them.

 

Another thing to note. If you used the ledger on Ripple it would have come up as Corrupt Senator, not "conspirator." In fact, the only time the word conspirator has been used by Joe is in this here quote:

 

 

In interest of all the information being on the table, (Something that never interests me) This is the format of everyone’s Role PM:

 

You are a Corrupt Senator. Come Discuss Matters with your fellow Conspirators in Here. You start with a <ITEM>. Did you really think I wouldn’t fix the Link before Posting?

You are a Senator. You start with a <ITEM>.

Remember to go check the rules clarification post on page one! Happy Playing!

 

Conspirator seems like an oddly specific word to use, considering this situation. Perhaps your doc title has conspirator in its title like the PM suggests? I don't know, but that's the impression I'm getting. People have been wrong about this kinda thing before. I just don't buy the "not going to post but use my ledger on a player who also never posted who also just happens to be the only person who dies the same turn." I don't believe in coincidences like this.

 

Also, when a player is arrested their items are confiscated by the Constables to be purchased later, not given out randomly to the voters. So that point is moot.

[Bugsy he/him]

Alvron seems to be the most likely suspect right now, plus if he is guilty we can then proceed to persecute those who set him up to get the items. I'd say he's our best bet for lynching as of now

 

[phattemer]

I'm going to agree with Aman & Co. on this one. So Alv just happened to kill someone who had a Ledger, and who was a Corrupt Senator? I don't buy it. Not only would it be pretty useless for a Corrupt Senator to even have a ledger, that's way too convenient. Alv can still use the ledger this cycle and tell us the results if he's not corrupt.

Alvron

[Alvron he/him]

The only valid point, in my opinion, is the business with the items. I can understand that. But what I find hard to believe is that Alvron's was the only kill and it just so happened that the item Ripple had was a Ledger. It feels fabricated to me, as if Alvron made it up to support his point and is trying to avoid being arrested. The best lies for eliminators are the believable ones, the kind that can be sympathized with. He did the exact same thing in QF13 when Sart outed him as Strawman's killer. He lied about his role, claiming to be a healer, so that he would not be lynched. I get the distinct impression that he's doing the same thing; telling us exactly what we want to hear so we will leave him be.

I must admit that I am disappointed in you Amanuensis.  If you think I would use the same trick so soon after the last time, and a failed one at that, then you are not as much of a threat as I have you down as in my profiles.

 

Also, I have no problem being arrested.  By all means, vote for me.  All that I asked was that you look at others first as they may use this as a reason to either vote on me or to abstain from voting.  Either of which helps them to hide.

 

 

If it's true that you used your ledger on Ripple than Alvron should have received her starting item, as every single player would have began with one. The only way that he would have got only a Dagger and a Ledger if she was active enough to use her item, which I find unlikely. Maybe we should start asking people who passed an item and who received them.

Hey now, I never said that I only got a dagger and ledger from Ripple.  Anything else I may or may not have gotten remains a secret.

 

Edit:

 

I'm going to agree with Aman & Co. on this one. So Alv just happened to kill someone who had a Ledger, and who was a Corrupt Senator? I don't buy it. Not only would it be pretty useless for a Corrupt Senator to even have a ledger, that's way too convenient. Alv can still use the ledger this cycle and tell us the results if he's not corrupt.

No I can't.  If I am right, which I'm 99.99999.....% sure of, the Corrupt will have and use a Search Warrant on me this round giving them a Dagger, Ledger and anything else I have.  Thus I will not be able to clear anyone.  Or they could just kill me but with the number of votes on me, it's unlikely they will get everything I have.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Alvron

[Adamir he/him]

I used the term Conspirator because in most online games of mafia I've played this far the eliminator faction is usually termed some variant of Conspirator. As we don't have proper Eliminators this time, Conspirator seemed like the best generic option. My argument still stands that for now, as far as we can tell with our evidence thus far, the dagger is in the hands of a villager. Do we want to risk it getting into the hands of an eliminator?

 

As Alvron is most likely going to be lynched, I'll leave the results of that as my argument for my own innocence. I look forward to conspiracy theories about how him being an innocent and me trying to defend him proves my guilt; for now, please hold off drugging or murdering me tonight, and let my name be cleared on the morrow.

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

Oddly enough, I am now far more suspicious of Adamir. Alvron's actions are potentially explainable. Adamir's are, quite simply, not. As Aman has already pointed out, there was no valid reason for you to have scanned Ripple. Can you offer one?

I realize this change comes a little late, considering the bandwagon I have apparently started. Sorry about that, Alv.

[STINK he/him]

I used the term Conspirator because in most online games of mafia I've played this far the eliminator faction is usually termed some variant of Conspirator. As we don't have proper Eliminators this time, Conspirator seemed like the best generic option. My argument still stands that for now, as far as we can tell with our evidence thus far, the dagger is in the hands of a villager. Do we want to risk it getting into the hands of an eliminator?

 

As Alvron is most likely going to be lynched, I'll leave the results of that as my argument for my own innocence. I look forward to conspiracy theories about how him being an innocent and me trying to defend him proves my guilt; for now, please hold off drugging or murdering me tonight, and let my name be cleared on the morrow.

 

I have conducted research into how Adamir could be evil, and I think I've found it.

 

According to http://www.names.org/n/adamir/about, there are at most 5 people with the name of Adamir in the US! Now, a reason for you to have such an unknown name is to clearly make yourself more identifiable, and so that less people would want to kill a person with such a unique name. Perfect for a 'Conspirator'.

 

We can also see what your name stands for, which does have some stuff in it, but let's completely dismiss the nice stuff and focus on the:

 

' D is for discreet, you can keep a secret. '

 

Again, that sounds perfect for a 'Conspirator' (have to put it in quotes otherwise people would call me evil) such as yourself, due to having to keep your whole alignment a secret! 

 

That ladies and gentlemen, is at least 2 pieces of solid evidence about how Adamir must be evil. Don't forget to vote Me for Governor!

[Alvron he/him]

I have conducted research into how Adamir could be evil, and I think I've found it.

 

According to http://www.names.org/n/adamir/about, there are at most 5 people with the name of Adamir in the US! Now, a reason for you to have such an unknown name is to clearly make yourself more identifiable, and so that less people would want to kill a person with such a unique name. Perfect for a 'Conspirator'.

 

That ladies and gentlemen, is at least 2 pieces of solid evidence about how Adamir must be evil. Don't forget to vote Me for Governor!

Out of interest, how many Alvrons are in the US?

 

Also I shall do as you request.  I vote Me for Governor.

[STINK he/him]

You activated my trap card!

 

As we speak, I am changing my name to Me. I put the form in years ago, ready for this exact moment.

[Master Elodin]

Adamir, I don't like the way that you're handling these accusations.

[A Joe in the Bush]

You activated my trap card!

 

As we speak, I am changing my name to Me. I put the form in years ago, ready for this exact moment.

Sigh. . .

The Player List is being updated, because I can't resist a good joke.

 

EDIT: However, Alv's vote doesn't count unless he makes it again.

Edited March 31, 2016 by The Only Joe

[Hellscythe he/him]

So you not only didn't post on the first turn, but decided to use your ledger on another player who did not post instead of someone active, which would benefit us much more? I don't buy it.

 

If it's true that you used your ledger on Ripple than Alvron should have received her starting item, as every single player would have began with one. The only way that he would have got only a Dagger and a Ledger if she was active enough to use her item, which I find unlikely. Maybe we should start asking people who passed an item and who received them.

 

Another thing to note. If you used the ledger on Ripple it would have come up as Corrupt Senator, not "conspirator." In fact, the only time the word conspirator has been used by Joe is in this here quote:

 

 

Conspirator seems like an oddly specific word to use, considering this situation. Perhaps your doc title has conspirator in its title like the PM suggests? I don't know, but that's the impression I'm getting. People have been wrong about this kinda thing before. I just don't buy the "not going to post but use my ledger on a player who also never posted who also just happens to be the only person who dies the same turn." I don't believe in coincidences like this.

 

Also, when a player is arrested their items are confiscated by the Constables to be purchased later, not given out randomly to the voters. So that point is moot.

I'm not at all worried about the term that someone uses to call the Corrupt Senators. The last time someone misspelled something I think y'all killed Ripple in MR9 (Before she turned evil through pinching for Kasimir) and she died innocent.

 

Also I didn't start with an item. Only boxings, because boxings count as items. So if I had died Night 1 and someone used a ledger on and a dagger, that's all that what would be found on my body as well.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Hellscythe