Hoid with the bead of Lerasium (Spoilers)

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Technically, the main effect of Lerasium is not to turn one into an Allomancer - that's a secondary effect. If Hoid used the Lerasium knowing its main effect and became an Allomancer secondarily to that, would it allow for Brandon's answer about not using it the way we think he would?

 

 

Of course, my preferred theory is that he uses it for ferruchemy and that's how he gets his sense of narrativium or destiny or whatever

[emailanimal he/him]

I'm not disputing that he's an Allomancer. I'm disputing that he had to have ingested the Lerasium to achieve that ability. We don't know what he did with it, but those WoBs indicate that he uses Allomancy through some other fashion.

 

 

So far,  one becomes an Allomancer by:

 

 1. Eating a bead of lerasium (an burning it)

 

 2. Being born to parents with Allomancer heritage (with subsequent snapping).

 

 3. Being born on Scadrial and snapped into a Misting (and only Misting) by the mists.

 

2 and 3 do not work for Hoid (not born on Scadrial; parents, having been born before shattering, not Allomancers).

 

We have a choice:

 

  Theory 1:  Observe: Hoid pilfered a bead of lerasium.  Conclude: path #1 was taken: he ate it an became an Allomancer.

 

  Theory 2: An unknown to us path #4 for a non-Scadrial-born to become an Allomancer exists. Hoid took that path.

 

Occam's razor, with the current evidence, dictates that Theory 1 > Theory 2.

[Jondesu he/him]

So far, one becomes an Allomancer by:

1. Eating a bead of lerasium (an burning it)

2. Being born to parents with Allomancer heritage (with subsequent snapping).

3. Being born on Scadrial and snapped into a Misting (and only Misting) by the mists.

2 and 3 do not work for Hoid (not born on Scadrial; parents, having been born before shattering, not Allomancers).

We have a choice:

Theory 1: Observe: Hoid pilfered a bead of lerasium. Conclude: path #1 was taken: he ate it an became an Allomancer.

Theory 2: An unknown to us path #4 for a non-Scadrial-born to become an Allomancer exists. Hoid took that path.

Occam's razor, with the current evidence, dictates that Theory 1 > Theory 2.

Brandon's statement, while hedging, indicates that might not be the case, though. That's part of our current evidence that must be considered.

Edit: You forgot hemalurgy, btw, though I think it's safe to say Hoid didn't use that (there may even be a WoB, not completely sure).

jW

Edited March 5, 2016 by Jondesu

[Ari he/him]

There's always the possibility that Hoid alloyed at least some of the Lerasium with, say, Harmonium, to utilise the spiritual rewrite side-effect into making himself a Feruchemist. He also seems to demonstrate Allomancy in WoR when interacting with Shallan during her flashbacks, so I'd consider it highly likely he has access to both magics.

[Voidus]

So far,  one becomes an Allomancer by:

 

 1. Eating a bead of lerasium (an burning it)

 

 2. Being born to parents with Allomancer heritage (with subsequent snapping).

 

 3. Being born on Scadrial and snapped into a Misting (and only Misting) by the mists.

 

2 and 3 do not work for Hoid (not born on Scadrial; parents, having been born before shattering, not Allomancers).

 

We have a choice:

 

  Theory 1:  Observe: Hoid pilfered a bead of lerasium.  Conclude: path #1 was taken: he ate it an became an Allomancer.

 

  Theory 2: An unknown to us path #4 for a non-Scadrial-born to become an Allomancer exists. Hoid took that path.

 

Occam's razor, with the current evidence, dictates that Theory 1 > Theory 2.

Bands spoilers

Actually we now have another way for people to attain Allomantic abilities, the medallions used by southerners. 

[emailanimal he/him]

Bands spoilers

Actually we now have another way for people to attain Allomantic abilities, the medallions used by southerners. 

 

Attaining Allomantic abilities and becoming an Allomancer are different things in my book. You, and Jondesu are correct that there are other ways to acquire those abilities (hemalurgy, medallions), but neither way actually makes you an Allomancer.

 

Here is the relevant WoB I was referring to earlier. It is from Austin Calamity signing

(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QIgYB34Q4u1fHL-6tnEM8zqt-Eifq7did4mV0-zBmlk/edit):

 

[15:45]

Q: Can you share any abilities that Hoid has accrued so far in the book, has , I can't even pronounce the l-word...

A: Yes, Lerasium, he is indeed an Allomancer, I haven't confirmed much else, but he does, uh, have that.

[natc]

Occam's Razor shouldn't really be as solid as an argument when the author himself says that the person has explicitly been doing things we wouldn't expect them to do. In response to being asked about the validity of Theory #1.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

Right now my current theory is that Hoid ground it into a powder, mixed it with ink, and got a tattoo.

Partly because I think it fits what we know well, and partly because I want Hoid to have a tattoo.

[Ari he/him]

Occam's Razor shouldn't really be as solid as an argument when the author himself says that the person has explicitly been doing things we wouldn't expect them to do. In response to being asked about the validity of Theory #1.

 

Indeed. Besides, we know from WoB that Hoid uses Feruchemy all the time to help determine where he needs to go and what he needs to do. We've observed him using Allomancy once. If the Nicrosilmind medallions existed that far back, it's possible he used one to gain access to emotional allomancy, and that he either used the Lerasium to hack in Feruchemy, or is keeping it for reasons unknown.

[LordFlea]

I recall in one of the segments of Hoid's letter to the 17th shard, he refers to the Lerasium bead in a roundabout way

 

"Let me first assure you that the element is quite safe. I have found a good home for it. I protect its safety like I protect my own skin, you might say."

 

The element in this case refers to the bead of Lerasium. Protecting it like he protects his own skin, references I  believe that by protecting himself he protects the lerasium inside him. 

 

It is my own personal belief that Hoid wished to become a Mistborn so as to be able to riot and sooth people's emotion and manipulate them further/easier. Rioting and soothing wold be especially useful I think on planets and people where they had never encountered these powers before. Even on Scadrial where people knew of it's existence, it was still difficult to detect. On Roshar then, where nobody (except a few perhaps) would think it possible Hoid could go far (and perhaps already has).

 

Also as a side note we know how potent Kelsier and Vin became with their powers after only a handful of years to practice each. I wonder what level of mastery Hoid could gain with the decades (or centuries?) in between the events of Secret Histories an the Stormlight Archives.

Edited March 7, 2016 by LordFlea

[IndigoAjah he/him]

I recall in one of the segments of Hoid's letter to the 17th shard, he refers to the Lerasium bead in a roundabout way

 

"Let me first assure you that the element is quite safe. I have found a good home for it. I protect its safety like I protect my own skin, you might say."

 

The element in this case refers to the bead of Lerasium. Protecting it like he protects his own skin, references I  believe that by protecting himself he protects the lerasium inside him. 

 

It is my own personal belief that Hoid wished to become a Mistborn so as to be able to riot and sooth people's emotion and manipulate them further/easier. Rioting and soothing wold be especially useful I think on planets and people where they had never encountered these powers before. Even on Scadrial where people knew of it's existence, it was still difficult to detect. On Roshar then, where nobody (except a few perhaps) would think it possible Hoid could go far (and perhaps already has).

 

Also as a side note we know how potent Kelsier and Vin became with their powers after only a handful of years to practice each. I wonder what level of mastery Hoid could gain with the decades (or centuries?) in between the events of Secret Histories an the Stormlight Archives.

A Lerasium Metalmind that pierces the skin would also fit the riddle though

[Voidus]

Attaining Allomantic abilities and becoming an Allomancer are different things in my book. You, and Jondesu are correct that there are other ways to acquire those abilities (hemalurgy, medallions), but neither way actually makes you an Allomancer.

 

Here is the relevant WoB I was referring to earlier. It is from Austin Calamity signing

(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QIgYB34Q4u1fHL-6tnEM8zqt-Eifq7did4mV0-zBmlk/edit):

That's personal opinion on the definition. Perfectly valid but not really a counterargument.

 

 

I recall in one of the segments of Hoid's letter to the 17th shard, he refers to the Lerasium bead in a roundabout way

 

"Let me first assure you that the element is quite safe. I have found a good home for it. I protect its safety like I protect my own skin, you might say."

 

The element in this case refers to the bead of Lerasium. Protecting it like he protects his own skin, references I  believe that by protecting himself he protects the lerasium inside him. 

 

It is my own personal belief that Hoid wished to become a Mistborn so as to be able to riot and sooth people's emotion and manipulate them further/easier. Rioting and soothing wold be especially useful I think on planets and people where they had never encountered these powers before. Even on Scadrial where people knew of it's existence, it was still difficult to detect. On Roshar then, where nobody (except a few perhaps) would think it possible Hoid could go far (and perhaps already has).

 

Also as a side note we know how potent Kelsier and Vin became with their powers after only a handful of years to practice each. I wonder what level of mastery Hoid could gain with the decades (or centuries?) in between the events of Secret Histories an the Stormlight Archives.

I don't believe we have confirmation that that refers to Lerasium, personally I think it does but just pointing out.

It's been a few centuries since, though Hoid probably hasn't lived each of those years, his abilities include some form of time dilation.

[emailanimal he/him]

Indeed. Besides, we know from WoB that Hoid uses Feruchemy all the time to help determine where he needs to go and what he needs to do. We've observed him using Allomancy once. If the Nicrosilmind medallions existed that far back, it's possible he used one to gain access to emotional allomancy, and that he either used the Lerasium to hack in Feruchemy, or is keeping it for reasons unknown.

 

Given that the most recent quote is verbatim "he has Allomancy", I do not think that Hoid's use of allomantic powers is based on nicrosil medallions or some other mechanical implements.

[Ari he/him]

Given that the most recent quote is verbatim "he has Allomancy", I do not think that Hoid's use of allomantic powers is based on nicrosil medallions or some other mechanical implements.

 

I hadn't seen we had WoB on him having allomancy, cheers for pointing that out. We've had tons about him having Feruchemy, so...

[thek9 he/him]

I hadn't seen we had WoB on him having allomancy, cheers for pointing that out. We've had tons about him having Feruchemy, so...

 

Which begs the question, how does he have BOTH Feruchemy and Allomancy?   Did he previously eat a different bead of Lerasium, and go back for seconds?  Or perhaps, he already was somehow both (whether through previous beads or some other means) and by Brandon saying that he may not have used the bead in the way we expect, he did something totally different with it.

 

Perhaps he wanted to use it to rewrite his spirit web for access to some other magic system, or to undo whatever prevents him from harming people.

 

Or maybe he just has hemalurgic spikes that give him his Feruchemy and/or Allomancy abilities.  Lots of possibilities.

[Voidus]

Which begs the question, how does he have BOTH Feruchemy and Allomancy?   Did he previously eat a different bead of Lerasium, and go back for seconds?  Or perhaps, he already was somehow both (whether through previous beads or some other means) and by Brandon saying that he may not have used the bead in the way we expect, he did something totally different with it.

 

Perhaps he wanted to use it to rewrite his spirit web for access to some other magic system, or to undo whatever prevents him from harming people.

 

Or maybe he just has hemalurgic spikes that give him his Feruchemy and/or Allomancy abilities.  Lots of possibilities.

I believe we have WoB that he doesn't have any spikes.

Bands spoilers

But the medallions could give both.

[natc]

It's not like having both powers is impossible if you know what you're doing. I'm sure there are ways beyond lerasium and Ascension to rewrite a spiritweb.

[The Invested Beard]

Hoid's basically a magical hacker. I think the ways he goes about obtaining powers is completely outside of the normal process.

[Oversleep]

Hoid is somebody who programmed in assembly before higher-level languages even began to show up. Now he's going around cosmere and learning those new languages his now-Shardholders friends created.

[emailanimal he/him]

Hoid is somebody who programmed in assembly before higher-level languages even began to show up. Now he's going around cosmere and learning those new languages his now-Shardholders friends created.

 

 

Well put (-:

 

To ponder on the question of Freuchemy - we so far know of only one way to have Freuchemy innately - be born with Terris blood on Scadrial.  Medallions can give one Freuchemy indeed, but Hoid's been showing up where he needed to be way before Sovereign showed up on South Pole and brought the craft of medallion making.

 

So.... Idle thoughts...

 

We know very little about becoming a Freuchemist. How did it originally turn out/spread on Scadrial.  Hero of Ages explained that Mistings existed as a "natural occurrence". There seemed to be no intersection between those who carried the Freuchemy genes (Terris people) and those who got Misting powers. Twinborn are a thing of the new millennium.

 

Hoid, of course, does not neet Sovereign to show him how to reverse engineer the Freuchemy compiler.  But could he have obtained Freuchemy via mechanical means all by himself?  I have a bit of a doubt here, because if he was able to hack the magic systems all by himself, he would not be running around the Cosmere collecting magic mcguffins. 

[PallonianFire he/him]

 

 

To ponder on the question of Freuchemy - we so far know of only one way to have Freuchemy innately - be born with Terris blood on Scadrial.  Medallions can give one Freuchemy indeed, but Hoid's been showing up where he needed to be way before Sovereign showed up on South Pole and brought the craft of medallion making.

 

I'm very curious to see how Hoid's relationship to Worldsingers/Worldbringers, and the Worldbringers' relationship to pre-Final Empire Feruchemists, might play into his acquisition of Feruchemy.

[Oversleep]

Or maybe Hoid uses some pre-Shattering version of Feruchemy? Like, he's a Lightweaver but not a Rosharan Lightweaver. Is it possible that he uses some Older Feruchemy? would explain why it shows him where and when he needs to be - because it would have a different set of attributes altogether.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Oversleep

[emailanimal he/him]

Or maybe Hoid uses some pre-Shattering version of Feruchemy? Like, he's a Lightweaver but not a Rosharan Lightweaver. Is it possible that he uses some Older Feruchemy? would explain why it shows him where and when he needs to be - because it would have a different set of attributes altogether.

 

 While the effects of Yolish Lightweaving and the illusions produced by Rosharan Surgebinders of a certain persuasion are similar, the actual mechanics of how these two work appear to differ.

 

There are good reasons to assume that pre-Shattering, there were different ways to use Investiture to achieve "magical" effects - not limited to Yolish Lightweaving.  It is not impossible that Hoid was trained in some.   But Freuchemy specifically seems to be a by-product of the Ruin-Preservation pact on Scadrial.  It is possible that a give-and-take zero sum magic system existed on Yolen before, but (a) we have not seen any evidence to that, and ( there is no reason for such a system, outside of Scadrial to be tied to metals... In fact, if you follow the Lightweaving analogy - the effects may be similar but the mechanics - different. 

 

An interesting observation, I think, is that Hoid has access to Yolish Lightweaving post-Shattering. Assuming Yolish Lightweaving is Investiture-based (why would it not be?), Shattering of Adonalsium did not remove Hoid's ability to access Investiture to perform it.

 

We need more questions to Brandon.

 

1. Were there magical systems pre-Shattering that resemble any of the post-Shattering magical systems we have seen in Cosmere books?

If yes, was one of such systems like Freuchemy?

 

 

2. Can a person living at the time of Mistborn/Stormlight Archive (or generally - post-Shattering) learn to perform Yolish Lightweaving?

 

3. Did Hoid acquire Freuchemy on Scadrial?

 

4. Would Hoid understand the magical systems related to a specific Shard/Shards ahead of time, or does he only learn how they work when he encounters them?

[Praying Allomantis]

I've always wondered if Hoid's time with the Terris in WoA has anything to with his Feruchemy. As a couple other people have mentioned, we don't know how the art originated, only that it is passed through the Terris bloodline, but we do know that the Terris are very secretive about their magic. It also seems possible, as of BoM,

that the Southerners also have Feruchemists to create and maintain their medallions. It's possible that Keslier created all of them, but they're widespread enough I would think they can be manufactured. And if Feruchemy or Allomancy didn't naturally occur among Southerners, could Kelsier have induced it somehow?

 
Also, the Terris are very Realmatically aware. Could Hoid and/or the Worldsingers have been involved in their origins, and thus part of the original development of Feruchemy?

Edited March 14, 2016 by Praying Allomantis

[imriel452]

Could Hoid be a possessor of Original Feruchemy? Could Hoid be one of the original creators of Feruchemy and Terris itself?