The third magic system

[Oversleep]

There are three systems and each in a way gives an access to one of 10 Surges. So in a way there are 30 magical systems.

So, one system is Surgebinding and it's a Honor/Cultivation system (mainly Honor, I'd say). Cultivation plays supportive role.
It's about establishing a bond with a spren (which are a mix of Honor and Cultivation Investiture) and deepening that bond by swearing Oaths. Seems pretty Honor to me.

Another system is Voidbinding and it's clearly of Odium. Or Odium's hack into an existing system of Listener's forms. Or Odium mixing with another Shard (probably Cultivation). Or just Odium's.
Listeners merge with voidspren (which are Odium's Investiture) to gain a Voidform (is it a word?). Voidbringing form. Voidbringer form. Whatever.

Then there is a third system:
 

 

Q: You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 surgebindings and 10 voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it.

A: Fabrials are part of it.
source

We know there are (or could be) fabrials replicating every Radiant Surge. That would account for these another 10 surges, but the thing is, there are lots of other fabrials.
Maybe it's similar to Hemalurgy? Similar that it's a lot more than local Surges. Hemalurgy can be used to steal everything. Only half of the spikes deal with stealing Feruchemical and Allomantic abilities.
So...Radiant replication fabrials are just a subset of this system.
Or maybe fabrials themselves are only part of the system? So it could be used to do many things and one of them is trapping spren to do things?
Discuss.

P.S. How does Nightwatcher fit in all of that?

Another idea: (no spoiler here)

Surgebinding is of Honor - bonds, oaths, Honor stuff generally. Voidbinding is of Odium, hatred and destruction and possessing going on.

Fabrials are of Cultivation - you trap a spren and cultivate it. Like plant. Feed it Stormlight and in return get something you want.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Oversleep

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

Another system is Voidbinding and it's clearly of Odium. Or Odium's hack into an existing system of Listener's forms. Or Odium mixing with another Shard (probably Cultivation). Or just Odium's.

Listeners merge with voidspren (which are Odium's Investiture) to gain a Voidform (is it a word?). Voidbringing form. Voidbringer form. Whatever.

 

Don't we have a WoB somewhere that says humans could voidbind? That contradicts Listener forms as voidbinding.

[Oversleep]

Don't we have a WoB somewhere that says humans could voidbind? That contradicts Listener forms as voidbinding.

probably a human could bond a voidspren and get access to voidbinding and Listener could bond with Radiantspren and become Knight Radiant.

I had a thought. See, we know that lesser spren could theoretically bond with people and it also would grant some abilities. Maybe these systems (with Ten Surges) could also allow lesser spren to achieve similar effects, but are not counted towards these 30 magic systems?

Let's see:

Surgebinding: Radiantspren (10 Surges) + lesser spren doing something

Voidbinding: Voidspren (10 Surges - forms of power) + lesser spren allowing various non-power forms (warform, workform, artform (it requries creationspren!))

Fabrials: ???spren for replicating 10 Surges + lesser spren for the rest of the fabrials

[TwelfthOfSnackTime]

I wonder if someone could trap a bonded radient spren(basically steal Syl) in a gem. I figure it might work for a bit but Kal would just have to summon her in sword form, unless it would interfere with or steal the nahel bond to power whatever effects a bonded Radient spren would have in a fabrial.

[A Windspren]

You know, this made me think of how Shardbearers had to embedd a gemstone in their Blades in order to summon them. Maybe the gemstones in the pommels of Shardblades really are a kind of fabrial, which allows a non-Radiant to bond the Blade?

[natc]

Fabrials inherently need stormlight to function, so I would say no.

There may be something particular to gemstones in general that is involved with both dead shardblade bonds and modern fabrials, as well as ancient (surgebinding) fabrials, but with shardblades the gem can be as dun as can be and work anyway.

[DreamEternal]

Fabrials inherently need stormlight to function, so I would say no.

There may be something particular to gemstones in general that is involved with both dead shardblade bonds and modern fabrials, as well as ancient (surgebinding) fabrials, but with shardblades the gem can be as dun as can be and work anyway.

But the gem must contain stormlight at first, for the bond to form, right? That is what I remember, at least.

[Lazarus52980]

I was thinking about this earlier this morning when listening to the WoK interludes with the people measuring spren (Sorry, since it's the audio book, I don't have references).  They proved that if you measure a spren and record the size, they are "locked" that way.  I'm guessing this would have something to do with this sort of fabrial.  If you can lock it's size, could you lock other things about it?  If instead of erasing the measuments as they did in the story, what if you changed them?  Would the spren change too?  This might very well be the key to the fabrial construction for newer/better shard items.

[TwelfthOfSnackTime]

I was thinking about this earlier this morning when listening to the WoK interludes with the people measuring spren (Sorry, since it's the audio book, I don't have references).  They proved that if you measure a spren and record the size, they are "locked" that way.  I'm guessing this would have something to do with this sort of fabrial.  If you can lock it's size, could you lock other things about it?  If instead of erasing the measuments as they did in the story, what if you changed them?  Would the spren change too?  This might very well be the key to the fabrial construction for newer/better shard items.

 

 

*Makes 50 ft tall flamespren and binds it to a flamethrower fabrial

Muahahah!!

[Pathfinder]

I was thinking about this earlier this morning when listening to the WoK interludes with the people measuring spren (Sorry, since it's the audio book, I don't have references).  They proved that if you measure a spren and record the size, they are "locked" that way.  I'm guessing this would have something to do with this sort of fabrial.  If you can lock it's size, could you lock other things about it?  If instead of erasing the measuments as they did in the story, what if you changed them?  Would the spren change too?  This might very well be the key to the fabrial construction for newer/better shard items.

My gut says it doesn't work that way though I have no concrete facts to show otherwise. I just feel when you measure something that is fluctuating, it needs to have fluctuated to that measurement in order for it to be measured. Otherwise you are just writing a random number on a piece of paper and the spren has no reason to feel the number applies to it, for it to be fixed. Now if you build a gigundo bonfire, and if the size of the fire affects the size of the spren instead of affecting the number of spren attracted to it, then you could measure a 50 foot spren and it would stay that way. But that is just my take on it. 

[Oversleep]

Food for thought: if a human were to Voidbind, he'd probably need to bond a voidspren. But, would that human be capable of Voidbinding or rather of different Surgebinding? Similarly to atium being used in Allomancy - it doesn't belong in the system, but creates a whole new set of abilities.

 

So, a Listener who were to attract a Radiantspren... would said Listener bond the spren or merge with it? Bonding would grant Surgebinding in the traditional meaning, but merging would create a Radiantform. Again, that would mean there are more possible Forms of power.

However, even if Listener can only bond Radiantspren, that still presents a lot of extremely interesting possibilities: because one spren is merged with Listener, allowing a form and another is bonded, granting Surgebinding. Now, imagine Voidform bonding a Radiantspren. Access to four Surges, a pair from Surgebinding and a pair from Voidbinding. Maybe even some sort of Compounding would be possible if the Surges overlap?

Take note that Listeners are already capable of bonding dead Shardblades. So it is not impossible to bond a living spren.

[Master Elodin]

Food for thought: if a human were to Voidbind, he'd probably need to bond a voidspren. But, would that human be capable of Voidbinding or rather of different Surgebinding? Similarly to atium being used in Allomancy - it doesn't belong in the system, but creates a whole new set of abilities.

 

So, a Listener who were to attract a Radiantspren... would said Listener bond the spren or merge with it? Bonding would grant Surgebinding in the traditional meaning, but merging would create a Radiantform. Again, that would mean there are more possible Forms of power.

However, even if Listener can only bond Radiantspren, that still presents a lot of extremely interesting possibilities: because one spren is merged with Listener, allowing a form and another is bonded, granting Surgebinding. Now, imagine Voidform bonding a Radiantspren. Access to four Surges, a pair from Surgebinding and a pair from Voidbinding. Maybe even some sort of Compounding would be possible if the Surges overlap?

Take note that Listeners are already capable of bonding dead Shardblades. So it is not impossible to bond a living spren.

Wait. What happens to the Parshendi Squire?

[DreamEternal]

One should ask if the 30 magic systems Brandon mentioned don't include Listener forms, in the same way that how Seons communicate instantly over great distances or the Stormfather calls storms are not considered full magic systems.

If so, Voidbinding is indeed different from the Listener void forms, and they don't need to follow the 10 surges cicle like we suppose the other magic systems do.

[DocHoliday]

probably a human could bond a voidspren and get access to voidbinding and Listener could bond with Radiantspren and become Knight Radiant.

I had a thought. See, we know that lesser spren could theoretically bond with people and it also would grant some abilities. Maybe these systems (with Ten Surges) could also allow lesser spren to achieve similar effects, but are not counted towards these 30 magic systems?

Let's see:

Surgebinding: Radiantspren (10 Surges) + lesser spren doing something

Voidbinding: Voidspren (10 Surges - forms of power) + lesser spren allowing various non-power forms (warform, workform, artform (it requries creationspren!))

Fabrials: ???spren for replicating 10 Surges + lesser spren for the rest of the fabrials

Listeners. Can't be Radiants. I'll look up the pertinent quote if needed...

[natc]

The quote was that they traditionally were not made Radiant, from my memory.

That wording is totally suspect.

[DocHoliday]

Sup says it in WoK I believe. Kaladin is musing about Oaths and Parshendi, to which Syl responds. Ill look it up tomorrow

[hoidhunter]

I'm almost certain that Brandon says, No Listener has ever been a radiant before, but it's not impossible for it to happen. More or less.

 

One of the idea that I'm really fixated on, is the idea that some form of hemalurgy exists for every magic system.  I think that Oversleep may be onto something with fabrial = hemalurgy.  I feel that people tend to misinterpret the statement about hemalurgy existing for all magic systems as meaning that you can use an Atium spike to steal any ability from any person, on any world, and stick it in yourself, or someone else.  Bear in mind that the focus of magic on Scadrail is metal, so it makes sense that hemalurgy would opeate using metal as the mechanism...but it could be totally different from world to world.

[cloudjumper]

I think that stone shamanism is the third magic system.

[Yata]

If I rememeber right Brandon said (its a 2016 WoB but I don't remember where he is)  that we have three mayor Magic System on Roshar and the Voidbinding is the only one we didn't see yet.

The other two have to be Surgebinding and Fabrial

Edited April 4, 2016 by Yata

[Stormgate]

I do think that the creatures that eat (for want of a better word) Stormlight are somehow Invested. Maybe in a similar manner (but by no means identical) to the mistwraiths having the power to effectively shapeshift. The sentience comes via Hemalurgy.

Fabrials can use the Surges, which have been defined as being like the Allomantic metals on Scadrial. Similar to how Feruchemy and Allomancy use the same metals, Fabrials and Sprenbonding use the same Surges. Voidbinding likely uses the same Surges, but with most of the power likely involving spren.

There are also the mysterious Dawnshards, which should be taken into account.

[AliasSheep]

So, a Listener who were to attract a Radiantspren... would said Listener bond the spren or merge with it? Bonding would grant Surgebinding in the traditional meaning, but merging would create a Radiantform. Again, that would mean there are more possible Forms of power.

 

I was always under the impression that Eshonai was supposed to bond a spren and become a Willshaper, given that the Willshapers seemed to be quite adventurous and delighting in novelty, and Eshonai was described as "The Explorer" and had spent a lot of time on Roshar exploring and making maps and whatnot.  I still think that this is a possibility given that Eshonai is to have a book in the first cycle and all other books in the cycle are associated with members of the Knights Radiant. I'm pretty sure that because of this, it's more likely that they would bond the spren, thus becoming a radiant.  Not an incredibly strong argument, I admit, but it's my two cents on the matter.

[Argel]

Yeah, I am really hoping Eshonai can break free of storm form and Odium's control and become a KR!

[Eki]

I hope so too, but pretty much the whole reason the Listeners turned to their evil gods was because spren chose (?) to give their powers to humans instead of them, right? So I'm really curious about how it would happen...

[Wonko the Sane]

If I rememeber right Brandon said (its a 2016 WoB but I don't remember where he is)  that we have three mayor Magic System on Roshar and the Voidbinding is the only one we didn't see yet.

 

Wait, really? Could somebody find this? Because if this is true, then calling the Everstorm wasn't Voidbinding.

[DreamEternal]

Wait, really? Could somebody find this? Because if this is true, then calling the Everstorm wasn't Voidbinding.

Maybe he doens't consider the listener forms a true magic system, much like the Stormfather's ability to call storms or kandra shapeshifting. That would mean voidbinding is probably a magic used by humans.

Edited April 8, 2016 by DreamEternal