[Secret History spoilers] Necromancy in the cosmere?

[hoidhunter]

So, maybe I'm making a connection that doesn't exist...but follow me on this.

 

When Hoid shows up at the well of ascension and accosts Kelsier...he's riding a corpse like a boat...and that corpse is not all the way dead (it mumbles something when Hoid prods it)

 

BoM

in the bands of mourning broadsheet, allomancer jak story, the gondolas' occupant uses a strange weapon the seems to fire a ghost

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into these things, but is it possible that some yet unseen shard world's magic system somehow involves the manipulation of the dead?

Edited February 11, 2016 by hoidhunter

[Confused]

Several do. Endowment resurrects the Returned. Dakhor monks sacrifice themselves to generate magic. Odium IMO invests the disturbed remains of listeners to make Unmade and also resurrects dead greatshells to make thunderclasts, as in Dalinar's Purelake vision.

[hoidhunter]

Several do. Endowment resurrects the Returned. Dakhor monks sacrifice themselves to generate magic. Odium IMO invests the disturbed remains of listeners to make Unmade and also resurrects dead greatshells to make thunderclasts, as in Dalinar's Purelake vision.

ok...have we seen any of them that blast ghastly apparitions that destroy matter they come into contact with while screaming in eerily human ways?  Or that enslave the souls of the departed to be used as a spiritual buffer preventing users from the negative effects of being alive in the cognitive realm of scadrial?

 

I apparently was not specific enough...

[Kingsdaughter613]

I suggest reading Shadows for Silence. Nazh is from Threnody, and they have some REALLY weird stuff going on with the Shades there.

[Observer]

I assumed he was using some kind of Shade-based weapon, even if it is possible that all he had was a very loud and mundane laser gun that got mistaken for a haunted pistol. Wish we could see what that gun does against silver....

 

(Also the closest thing we know of to Necromancy in the Cosmere would be Bloodsealing, from TES.)

[hoidhunter]

Yeah...I have read shadows for silence...what we see of shades does not match up...shadows with glowing eyes that wither flesh is very different from green glowing specter with a skeleton that destroys all matter...

[Skaa pirate]

The shade launcher has runes along the sides. Silence's knife also has runes I believe. Maybe different rune combinations create effects on shades?  There were runes in the small shrine room too weren't there? 

 

So, perhaps these runes work in a similar way as aons in channeling and manipulating investiture?

 

There's too much we don't know about Threnody and shades. The Ire are concerned about what's going on there, maybe someone found out how to weaponize shades. A truly terrifying concept in my opinion.

[natc]

The nature of magic on worlds devoid of living shards is an interesting issue to look into, now that you bring it up. I wonder how it worked on Taldain . . .

[Landis963]

The nature of magic on worlds devoid of living shards is an interesting issue to look into, now that you bring it up. I wonder how it worked on Taldain . . .

Taldain has a Shard - Autonomy. And information regarding your question can probably be found in Sixth of the Dusk (which never had a Shard) or Elantris (Which had two Shards, both now dead).

[natc]

Ah, right, there's him. Kinda lost track.

[taveren]

Several do. Endowment resurrects the Returned. Dakhor monks sacrifice themselves to generate magic. Odium IMO invests the disturbed remains of listeners to make Unmade and also resurrects dead greatshells to make thunderclasts, as in Dalinar's Purelake vision.

where did you find that out about the the remains of listeners and greatshells

[natc]

You do realize what IMO means right? There you go.

Which I completely disagree with by the way.

[Stormgate]

You do realize what IMO means right? There you go.

Which I completely disagree with by the way.

What does it mean?

[Windrunner]

It means, "In my opinion." You might also see IMHO, which is, "In my humble opinion".

[Irkutsk]

I would like to mention Bloodsealing as well. It is an offshoot of Forgery found on Sel and in the novella "The Emperor's Soul." It involves stamping a skeleton with fresh blood to reanimate it as a minion. It is basically the definition of Necromancy.

[natc]

I got downvoted for pointing out that opinions do not require a source. Interesting.

On Bloodsealing, there is a good chance that it is completely separate from forgery and people just don't know better, considering how drastically different they are. Your point itself is true though. I'd forgotten about that one.

[Yata]

On Bloodsealing, there is a good chance that it is completely separate from forgery and people just don't know better, considering how drastically different they are. Your point itself is true though. I'd forgotten about that one.

I too think there are completely separate "Arts".... It's not like the kind of Forgery of Mai-Pon and the Rose Empire that are both Forgery but used in different "specific way".

 

Maybe they seems similar because the culture of the two countries have a lot of common part...But I find it unlikely

[Nethseäar]

Per necromancy in the Cosmere, I'd have thought Lifeless, from Warbreaker, were the obvious go-to. They're dead bodies reanimated with magic to do your bidding. Returned, also from Warbreaker, are the next most obvious, though that's closer to resurrection with amnesia -- there isn't overt control going on, though there is plenty of manipulation. So, Endowment is the Shard of necromancy, it would seem. Bloodsealing is the next closest, and Shades also fit with necromancy.

 

It means, "In my opinion." You might also see IMHO, which is, "In my humble opinion".

 

You might also see IMNSHO, "In my not so humble opinion."

And any number of other variations, which, I suppose, might be useful if you're using a mobile device, once you know what they mean.

 

[...]

When Hoid shows up at the well of ascension and accosts Kelsier...he's riding a corpse like a boat...and that corpse is not all the way dead (it mumbles something when Hoid prods it) [...]

An interesting theory I've seen is that Hoid grabbed the Cognitive manifestation of some guy who had recently died and used some form of magic to keep him from moving on just yet -- similar to the so-called Investijuice the Ire used to sustain themselves in the Cognitive Realm. If I recall correctly, we see him give a golden liquid to Spanky, which he also puts on the oar. Presumably this keeps them in the Cognitive realm. I suppose that's a form of manipulation of the dead -- keeping their Cognitive aspect around to be used as a boat.

And Kelsier gives us plenty of manipulation BY the dead.

[DreamEternal]

What I would like to see is a more "traditional" form of necromancy, instead of the one used in pop culture.

You know, instead of megalomaniacal wizards raising undead armies, what about seers speaking with the shadows of the dead for guidance, warlocks calling vengeful ghosts to haunt those who wronged them or priests helping people make peace with the spirits of their ancestors.

That kind of thing is very, very far from what Brandon writes, however, and wouldn't make good action scenes(somethimg I couldn't care less about, but is part of his style.).

However, certain lines spoken with reverence by Nazh about rites and traditions being followed to become a shadow do imply that line of magic could have existed, or come to exist, in Threnody. I, for one, would like to see more sapient ghosts besides the Survivor of Death.

[Sestren]

I've been wondering about this one for a while, and I think people are putting to much stock in to the 'ghost' thing from the Ghastly Gondola stories. It seems as if it should be assumed that the majority of the story is exaggeration with little hints of truth thrown in. The whole ghost thing could just be a way of making the story more exciting.

 

It's the little seemingly unimportant things that would likely point to actual cosmere links. Near the end of the story the writer mentions a "V" shape that appears in the air for a second before the map rips and the villain falls. It seems so out of place with no explanation. I think that this is a reference to the magic system from Sel. Aon Aon could easily be seen as a sideways V at a quick glance.

 

We know that AonDor functions in some way outside of Sel, but we don't know the restrictions yet. It was implied that the Aons are geographically limited, and people assumed that this would mean new Aons would have to be generated for new areas, but we aren't certain yet. It could be possible that AonDor still requires the base Aon Aon even on other worlds.

 

I'm mainly just putting this out there on the off-chance that I'm right. I need written proof on the internets

[Blightsong]

I've been wondering about this one for a while, and I think people are putting to much stock in to the 'ghost' thing from the Ghastly Gondola stories. It seems as if it should be assumed that the majority of the story is exaggeration with little hints of truth thrown in. The whole ghost thing could just be a way of making the story more exciting.

It's the little seemingly unimportant things that would likely point to actual cosmere links. Near the end of the story the writer mentions a "V" shape that appears in the air for a second before the map rips and the villain falls. It seems so out of place with no explanation. I think that this is a reference to the magic system from Sel. Aon Aon could easily be seen as a sideways V at a quick glance.

We know that AonDor functions in some way outside of Sel, but we don't know the restrictions yet. It was implied that the Aons are geographically limited, and people assumed that this would mean new Aons would have to be generated for new areas, but we aren't certain yet. It could be possible that AonDor still requires the base Aon Aon even on other worlds.

I'm mainly just putting this out there on the off-chance that I'm right. I need written proof on the internets

Brandon has said that different shapes are important in different magic systems. It's not just Sel's magic that does things like this.

Some examples are Surgebinding (think back to the glyphs on the acient KR's armor in Dalinar's flashback) and even allomancy (brandon has said that the molecular shape of the metals and their alloys is what allows them to act as keys for investiture).

He has also talked about how Shards have colors, numbers, and shapes that are closely associated with the powers, this phenomenon could deal with that.

Either way, I doubt it has to do with Selish magic.

[Landis963]

It's the little seemingly unimportant things that would likely point to actual cosmere links. Near the end of the story the writer mentions a "V" shape that appears in the air for a second before the map rips and the villain falls. It seems so out of place with no explanation. I think that this is a reference to the magic system from Sel. Aon Aon could easily be seen as a sideways V at a quick glance.

 

That's the rip in the map.  It's being held between Nazh and Nikki, Nikki's weight on it begins to tear it apart, making her half bend such that the rip makes the V she describes, then it tears apart and Nikki falls to the ground, whereupon she's greeted by a suspiciously-familiar beggar with white hair who offers to tell her a story.  

[Irkutsk]

On April 26, 2016 at 8:52 PM, Landis963 said:

 

That's the rip in the map.  It's being held between Nazh and Nikki, Nikki's weight on it begins to tear it apart, making her half bend such that the rip makes the V she describes, then it tears apart and Nikki falls to the ground, whereupon she's greeted by a suspiciously-familiar beggar with white hair who offers to tell her a story.  

Which book/ novella/ unpublished story is this from? AFAIK Nazh wasn't in Shadows for Silence, which is the only book I know of set on threnody. I'm curious, and of course always looking for more Sanderson I haven't read.

[Samaldin]

12 minutes ago, Irkutsk said:

Which book/ novella/ unpublished story is this from? AFAIK Nazh wasn't in Shadows for Silence, which is the only book I know of set on threnody. I'm curious, and of course always looking for more Sanderson I haven't read.

From the Newspaper from Bands of Mourning

[Irkutsk]

6 hours ago, Samaldin said:

From the Newspaper from Bands of Mourning

Ah, yes I remember now. Thank you.