Theory: Dalinar Must Die (Spoilers)

[Auri Garvel Xel'iathi]

Just a few points, there will always be a greater good. An argument can be made that Hitler was working for the greater good. It just so happens that he was doing it for the greater good of the Aryan Race which he believed superior. Mao worked for the greater good, of the communist party and his supporters. Julius Caesar worked for the good of Rome when he refused to relinquish rule. But the common thread in all this is that the common good is being done to the detriment of other people. It's all good until you feel the boots on your back walking all over you. To be a great leader a certain ruthlessness is required but it must be done with the right intent and the right reasons.

And genius doesn't always count into it either because for all the collective intelligence the modern world has today and throughout history, we still haven't fixed bureaucracy.

[+eveorjoy]

Has anyone considered that the saving and destroying are not two things? If this is from the point of view of spren, perhaps by saving the world they destroy the spren?

 

The problem is that the way the blurp is written there are two people mentioned.

 

From the back of WOK.

 

 

One of them may redeem us.

And one of them will destroy us.

 

I suppose that "one" could be the same person, but it doesn't read that way.

[TheShogun]

They wanted revenge, and thousands are dead because of it.

 

I'm pretty sure that revenge is just an excuse for the war, it's real purpose is to keep Alethkar together through Elokhar's reign. They talked in WoK about this.

[Moogle]

Edit: I'd like to apologize for this gigantic post. Sorry if anything I've said in this thread or others has offended anyone. I'm glad that so far everything has been civil.

 

I'm not sure Taravangian wouldn't go to war, if he had the armies. I'm not sure he would either. Our impression that Taravangian is a man of peace comes from Shallan's POV. She also thought he was a little dumb, so we know now that she didn't know him at all. We don't know this man. However, I get the impression that if he had access to an army and felt war was necessary he'd do it. I'm not saying this as a condemnation, just a simple fact. Someone who will kidnap people and kill them for what he believes is the greater good is capable of anything.

I think he would go to war, but I don't think he would do it lightly. The Alethi do it at the drop of a hat. Taravangian has shown no hatred, no real aggression so far as we've seen.

Also Dalinar isn't the same man who drank himself into stupor the night his brother died. He is changing and he regrets many that he has killed. That doesn't excuse him, but he is trying to change. Before he considered uniting the highprinces to end the war, he suggested ending the war to Elhokar. That went over like a lead balloon, but he did suggest it.

He suggested it, but quickly abandoned the train of thought. He has, since then, attempted to win the war. This makes me uncomfortable, to say the least. He's changing, but as of the end of TWOK, he's still planning on continuing the war.

I think that if Eshonai could speak with Dalinar and sue for peace, Dalinar would consider it. if the Alethi would agree to it is another matter.

I think the Alethi wouldn't agree to it, but if Dalinar was Highprince of War, then he could probably force it.

It's not the number of people being killed that matters, its the fact that they are selected as sacrifices just because they are deemed unimportant. I'm referring more to those that are kidnapped than those who are all ready dying. Taravangian crossed a line when he began murdering healthy people because no one would miss them. If it can be justified Brandon is going to have a hard time doing so.
...
Taravangian's reasons are more noble than Sadeas, but the lack of respect for the lives of the lowest members society is the same.

It's precisely the number of people that die that matters to me. I would prefer 1 person die rather than 10 people die. I'm not too worried about the rest of it, in the end. I don't consider Taravangian's lack of respect to be an issue. Taravangian could be a terrible person who swears at children and I don't think it would change my views on what he is doing, assuming he's honest when he states that he's working to save the world.

The entire world is in danger. Taravangian is trying to save it, and he may very well be the only one who can. That's really what it comes down to, for me. Dalinar has potential, but there's three years to the Everstorm, and he's busy trying to kill Parshendi.

The scary thing about a pandemic is we can't be sure when one will strike, though scientists say we are overdue for one.

There's a difference between having a known date (1000 days) and knowing we're overdue based on some statistical analysis which could be off by decades, I think.
 

I'm not so sure the 1000 days means exactly a 1000 days. If it did we would be given the start date and informed how much time there was left. Maybe we will be given this information in WOR. Regardless, killing people to hear their death ramblings won't necessarily save everyone either. Hopefully, Taravangian is doing more than having people killed, by his staff or by Szeth.

I agree, but it's useful information. Knowing you have about 3 years to prepare is insanely good to know. They aren't guaranteed to save everyone, but just by telling Taravangian the date, there's a potential of thousands of lives saved.

I don't like Mao, but there are people who admire his political philosophies and consider him a genius. Mao's philosophies are debated in colleges. He dropped the ball in this case, which is why I don't think being a genius means you will be a great ruler. Of course, I tend to agree with the idea that all power needs checks and balances. My point in bringing Mao up was that some think Taravangain will be the best ruler of Roshar because he is so smart every now and then. Mao shows that even smart people can be awful leaders.

If Mao was letting people starve with warehouses full of food, then I don't know I'd consider him a genius. Smart people don't necessarily make good rulers, but I would argue that, all things equal, you would want a leader to be smart rather than stupid.

Maybe Taravangian would be a good leader for Roshar, but nothing in the text supports this.

Except for the fact that, in a world where basically everyone is at war, his city is peaceful and prosperous. Free healthcare for all. It's not perfect (Jasnah shows this with the thugs) but it seems far better than most places. He's intelligent, and seems capable of executing plans well. I'd say Taravangian is an above-average leader as per the text.

I prefer Dalinar as a leader to Taravangian because at least I would know where I would stand with him.

That's perfectly valid. I think it's based on emotion, not reason, which makes me leery, however.

Considering how Dalinar is beginning to be disgusted by killing on the battlefield, he may not be a warlord much longer. I think Dalinar is doing what he is doing because he is still trying to work with the highprinces. Will this work? I guess we will have to see, but it is quite possible Dalinar maybe a man of peace by the end of WOR. Most likely not however, because Honor is asking him to return a group of warrior knights, which Sanderson has said is the point of the Stormlight Archive.

I agree. I do not think Dalinar will be very peaceful. He's trying to be an honorable Blackthorn, and I'm not particularly pleased by his choice while he's still fighting the Parshendi. Military might is important against the Voidbringers, but not against potential allies.

So if you hate war, what do think of the Knight's Radiant?

Finally, don't assume Taravangian wouldn't go to war. We have no way of knowing whether or not he would. And even if he wouldn't, his peace will not be bloodless.

Knights Radiant were a pretty okay group of people for a while. They saved the world from Desolations. I think their codes might have issues, but it brings them power, so it's quite reasonable to follow the Ideals they do. They ended up giving their Shards to common men so that people could use them to slay and murder with abandon. I am not okay with that and there better be a damnation good reason for it.

Taravangian would go to war if necessary, but unlike the Alethi I think he would have to be pushed to it. I do not think that he would have started a war against the Parshendi like Dalinar and Elhokar did, however. I would hope Taravangian would try to keep bloodshed to a minimum.
 

Under the orders of the Parshendi government Szeth kills many guards and finally the king. Each death is a unilateral and deliberate act of war initiated by the Parshendi. There is no rebel faction. They make no effort to communicate their concerns with their new ally before resorting to violence.

The Alethi don't know there's no rebel faction.

The Parshendi could explain themselves at any time. They could deliver those responsible for Szeth's unjustified murders to the Alethi and attempt to negotiate a new understanding any day. All they have to do is send some people under a flag of truce. They never have.

I don't think the Alethi would have met with them, but it is true that the Parshendi have not acted as they could have to reduce casualties.

The quote you offer proves that the Alethi were more responsible than the Parshendi for attempting to understand. The Alethi sent "envoys and scholars". What did the Parshendi do? Murder innocents and not explain. Rebuff all efforts to communicate.

The Parshendi killed, at most, 50 people through Szeth. They never attacked after fleeing to the Shattered Plains. The Alethi started that one. I'd love to see how many scholars and envoys the Alethi sent; do you have any numbers?

Just because, in moments of private doubt, Dalinar wonders what would have happened if they had pursued peace more strongly, none of the onus for the war they started is removed from the Parshendi.

Nor is it removed from the Alethi and Dalinar.

Whether the Alethi are warlike or not and whether they have civil strife at home are irrelevant. The Parshendi started the war with an ally without even trying to negotiate or communicate. Gavilar had no idea that what he was doing would upset the Parshendi. The Alethi attempted to communicate before retaliating. The Parshendi failed to communicate and are repeating that choice every minute of the war.

It is in no way irrelevant. The Alethi could have not started a war, saving thousands. The Parshendi didn't attack them, they fled to the Shattered Plains after the assassination. Gavilar had every idea that he was going to upset someone (he says Thaidakar is too late). I don't think he knew what he was doing, exactly, which means Gavilar was careless.

The Alethi attempts at communication strike me as half-hearted at best. I will concede the point until I do my reread, however.

As to the Alethi... they don't have to keep up the war. Revenge is a terrible motive for anything. I doubt any of the highprinces even really care anymore. Sadeas maybe. Dalinar obviously doesn't feel the same crushing desire for revenge. They're doing it for greed at this point, I think.

Dalinar may be warlike and he may describe himself as a warlord, but he is acting within his role as part of the Alethi government. He is highprince and will soon be Highprince for War. He has, and will be, performing his duties as an Alethi government officer.

I don't care about his duties. I don't care about the law, or what someone's role is. Each and every person has the 'responsibility' to manipulate the world in a way to maximize their happiness/utility/goodness/whatever. Hiding behind what your 'duty' is is just a way to be lazy and not bother with this. It is irrational, unless your utility is increased by people following their duties (which is a weird terminal value but okay).

Dalinar is continuing a war he could very well stop (partially), attempting to kill Parshendi while not even knowing if it was a rebel faction that killed Gavilar. He has no information about why they did it and is continuing to attack regardless. He has described himself as a warlord, and I do not think the description false.

 

 

Just a few points, there will always be a greater good. An argument can be made that Hitler was working for the greater good. It just so happens that he was doing it for the greater good of the Aryan Race which he believed superior. Mao worked for the greater good, of the communist party and his supporters. Julius Caesar worked for the good of Rome when he refused to relinquish rule. But the common thread in all this is that the common good is being done to the detriment of other people. It's all good until you feel the boots on your back walking all over you. To be a great leader a certain ruthlessness is required but it must be done with the right intent and the right reasons.

And genius doesn't always count into it either because for all the collective intelligence the modern world has today and throughout history, we still haven't fixed bureaucracy.

 

You misunderstand the notion of the 'greater good'. There is a great difference between working for the greater good of the Aryans (Hitler), working for the greater good of the economic prosperity of China (Mao), and working for the greater good of the world as a whole (Taravangian). Just because the words 'greater good' are used does not mean there is much in the way of similarity, or that working for the 'greater good' of something is a bad thing. These are three separate things.

 

You cannot act without harming someone else. Every day you eat food that could have helped a starving child. Every time someone is in a leadership position in Roshar and they aren't attempting to collect death prophecies, they are (potentially) harming the entire world because they're missing out on information which could help against the Desolation. There is always a tradeoff. There is no free lunch when deciding how to act.

 

I think most people support Dalinar because he's not personally and directly harming people. The distinction between killing someone yourself with a weapon and letting someone bleed out while you watch them die and do nothing is lost on me. In both cases, the person is dead and you could have prevented it. I hold no special distinction for acting vs not acting, only the outcomes. I think this is the main difference between me and most people.

 

If what Taravangian is doing is hurting more people than he's helping, he's failing in his stated goal of helping everyone and I hope he is removed from power. I do not think this is the case, as of yet. We know he's at least gotten some valuable, potentially life-saving information about the Everstorm's time of arrival.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Moogle

[Auri Garvel Xel'iathi]

You misunderstand the notion of the 'greater good'. There is a great difference between working for the greater good of the Aryans (Hitler), working for the greater good of the economic prosperity of China (Mao), and working for the greater good of the world as a whole (Taravangian). Just because the words 'greater good' are used does not mean there is much in the way of similarity, or that working for the 'greater good' of something is a bad thing. These are three separate things.

 

You cannot act without harming someone else. Every day you eat food that could have helped a starving child. Every time someone is in a leadership position in Roshar and they aren't attempting to collect death prophecies, they are (potentially) harming the entire world because they're missing out on information which could help against the Desolation. There is always a tradeoff. There is no free lunch when deciding how to act.

 

I think most people support Dalinar because he's not personally and directly harming people. The distinction between killing someone yourself with a weapon and letting someone bleed out while you watch them die and do nothing is lost on me. In both cases, the person is dead and you could have prevented it. I hold no special distinction for acting vs not acting, only the outcomes. I think this is the main difference between me and most people.

 

If what Taravangian is doing is hurting more people than he's helping, he's failing in his stated goal of helping everyone and I hope he is removed from power. I do not think this is the case, as of yet. We know he's at least gotten some valuable, potentially life-saving information about the Everstorm's time of arrival.

 

 

 

Perhaps, you misunderstand the notion of 'greater good'? The words themselves explicitly state there is a comparison being made where one has "greater" good than another. And, tell me, who decides who benefits? Surely not the victim? There is a difference between doing acts that are wrong for the 'greater good' and doing the right thing because it is good. If the latter was followed and not the former there'd be less death in the name of God and salvation.

 

There is no free lunch but that does not mean there can be no exchange of value for value. The significant factor here is choice. If you choose to dedicate your life to helping others yourself you are usually lauded, applauded and recognized for it (i.e. Mother Teresa). But when you decide for others, and make them bend to your will or break them in the process, then you are a tyrant. You speak of tradeoffs, but tell me, how much choice did Kaladin have when Amaram took the shards? If information was that crucial to Mr. T, then perhaps he should've bent his massive intellect to getting people to provide that information voluntarily? If they're going to die, might as well die for a good cause? Do you see the dissonance here?

 

The difference between killing someone and letting someone die is largely dependent on the context but the way I see it, whether you acted or not is your choice. Your reasons might be your own but it still remains your choice -- even choosing not to act is a choice. The main difference is the intent, and this is something that the law the whole world over recognizes as very, very significant. This is the difference between murder and manslaughter. Amaram chose to kill. This is a fact. So did Taravangian. If anything, I'd side more with Dalinar as a warlord as it is his function and role to kill whereas Taravangian would like to bring peace and ease the suffering of people but instead kills. It is a massive distortion of function.

 

Additionally, Dalinar's track record is such that I'd trust him to spend my life, if needed, into what he believes is the best way possible. This is what it means to lead men, this is what it takes to earn true loyalty. Neither through trickery, nor through deceit nor from cruelty, fear or coercion. Mr. T and Dalinar is the difference between saying "the world is ending, I require your death to lessen that chance but regardless of what you say I'll kill you anyway", and, "The world might end, your death might lessen that chance, will you help?"

Edited December 27, 2013 by Auri Garvel Xel'iathi

[+eveorjoy]

Additionally, Dalinar's track record is such that I'd trust him to spend my life, if needed, into what he believes is the best way possible. This is what it means to lead men, this is what it takes to earn true loyalty. Neither through trickery, nor through deceit nor from cruelty, fear or coercion. Mr. T and Dalinar is the difference between saying "the world is ending, I require your death to lessen that chance but regardless of what you say I'll kill you anyway", and, "The world might end, your death might lessen that chance, will you help?"

 

 

This is the reason I trust Dalinar over Taravangian and there is a logical reason for this. When Dalinar spends my life for saving the world he is allowing me the choice to do so. I die of my own free will because it will benefit others. My live is not stolen from me, I gave it willingly seeing no other alternative. Where as if Taravangian murders me, I'll die in fear and pain and never know why. I'm going to die eventually, even if neither man sacrifices my life. No one is immortal. Logically, which is the better way to die? 

[Moogle]

 

Perhaps, you misunderstand the notion of 'greater good'? The words themselves explicitly state there is a comparison being made where one has "greater" good than another. And, tell me, who decides who benefits? Surely not the victim? There is a difference between doing acts that are wrong for the 'greater good' and doing the right thing because it is good. If the latter was followed and not the former there'd be less death in the name of God and salvation.

 

No one decides, it's simply a fact of the world. Take a set of measures: live people, how happy people are, how many acts that fit criteria as being 'bad', whatever. In Taravangian's case, let's measure how many people are left alive after the Desolation.

• Case 1: Taravangian does nothing but care for his city.
• Case 2: Taravangian kills people for their prophecies and tries to save the world.

These are two actions. We want to know which is 'better' according to our measure(s). We don't know what will happen, not for sure, but we can predict it as well as we're able. Here's a potential set of consequences:

• Case 1: Everyone on Roshar dies to the Voidbringers.
• Case 2: A lot of people die to the Voidbringers, but they are driven back. We also have some dead people we murdered.

In this case, we are trying to see which action leads to a better outcome based on what we're measuring. In this case, number of lives. We want more people alive, so we pick option 2 as the best case. Assuming our predictions here are true (big assumption) then the 'greater good of maximizing live people' says we should start murdering people for prophecies if we want more people to be alive.

 

This is oversimplified. There's more (a lot more) than 2 options. But this is the basics of decision systems. Figure out what you want, figure out ways you can manipulate the world, predict what the consequences will be, and choose the one which leads to the best outcome according to a system you've decided. The real question is deciding what you want to measure. If you want to choose 'whatever makes Taravangian happy', that's an option. I don't think it's what Taravangian chose, though.

 

When you talk about "doing the right thing because it is good", you haven't made yourself clear. You need to know what you think is 'good'.  When most people talk about 'good' and 'right', they have some fuzzy internal feelings. They think of situations, and they 'feel' that it's 'good' or 'bad'. If it makes them sad, or angry (Amaram betraying Kaladin) then they call it 'evil' and if it makes them happy (Kaladin saving Dalinar) they call it 'good'. It's not as simple as feelings, and is a good deal more complex, but I hope my point is clear: I have no idea what you mean you say

 

There is a difference between doing acts that are wrong for the 'greater good' and doing the right thing because it is good.

because you haven't told me what good is. Your ideas on what is good are not going to be the same as every person, so the best I can hope to say is that 'good as defined by Auri are things that Auri will say are good when shown to Auri'. Frankly, the word 'good' is so vague and ill defined that I would prefer people stop using it.

 

I apologize for going a bit off topic with this part of my post. Philosophy in respect to language is basically the only worthwhile philosophy in my mind. Wittgenstein famously remarked with his one book on language (his Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus) that he had solved all philosophical problems. Perhaps not entirely correct, but not too far off the mark, I think. Clarity of language is important for these kinds of discussions.

 

This is the reason I trust Dalinar over Taravangian and there is a logical reason for this. When Dalinar spends my life for saving the world he is allowing me the choice to do so. I die of my own free will because it will benefit others. My live is not stolen from me, I gave it willingly seeing no other alternative. Where as if Taravangian murders me, I'll die in fear and pain and never know why. I'm going to die eventually, even if neither man sacrifices my life. No one is immortal. Logically, which is the better way to die? 

 

Right, but you're missing this important bit: you don't have to die. In Taravangian's world (where he's ruling with an iron fist), it is possible he could deal with the Desolation and have nobody die to the Voidbringers. Your chances of dying are less than 1% in this case, and vary wildly depending on whether or not you're poor or suffering from a terminal illness.

 

With Dalinar, he fights the Voidbringers without special knowledge, and now you're at a 90% chance of death.

 

The issue of Taravangian vs Dalinar is much more complex than who you would prefer to die with, I think. If Taravangian offers a higher chance of living, and I feel he does, then I think I'd go with him. There's a lot to consider though. Can't wait for WoR.

[+eveorjoy]

Right, but you're missing this important bit: you don't have to die. In Taravangian's world (where he's ruling with an iron fist), it is possible he could deal with the Desolation and have nobody die to the Voidbringers. Your chances of dying are less than 1% in this case, and vary wildly depending on whether or not you're poor or suffering from a terminal illness.

 

With Dalinar, he fights the Voidbringers without special knowledge, and now you're at a 90% chance of death.

 

The issue of Taravangian vs Dalinar is much more complex than who you would prefer to die with, I think. If Taravangian offers a higher chance of living, and I feel he does, then I think I'd go with him. There's a lot to consider though. Can't wait for WoR.

 

Where do you get that from the text? Even when the humans knew what they were dealing with, having a lot more information than Taravagian, nine in ten died. Genius can only work with the information it has and the ramblings of the dying are not giving very clear information.

 

A 1% chance of dying, where did you get that statistic from? At this point in the story, you have no way of knowing that anymore than we know if Dalinar, Shallan, Kaladin, or Szeth will be the destroyer of the Roshar.

 

You don't know how many people Taravangain has killed. You assume the numbers are low, but the world is full of the lost and forgotten who pass on without anyone noticing. Kharbarnth is a city-state. Who is going to investigate the hundreds or thousands of unknowns who are missing there? He could have killed half of the poor who wandered into Kharbranth for all we know. You are just assuming the numbers are low, because no one is complaining, but this may not be the case.

 

Now maybe he hasn't killed that many, but really we don't know.

 

Also, Dalinar is getting visions from the Almighty and now understands the nature of those visions. So he has special knowledge and likely more than Taravangian does. Taravangian maybe a genius, but he still only has confusing information to go on. Dalinar is receiving clear information, that it appears at this point Taravangian is not.

 

Then again maybe Taravangian is receiving visions too (I've read that theory), but then why bother blooding the poor to learn things the Almighty is explaining clearly to him?

Edited December 27, 2013 by eveorjoy

[Auri Garvel Xel'iathi]

No one decides, it's simply a fact of the world. Take a set of measures: live people, how happy people are, how many acts that fit criteria as being 'bad', whatever. In Taravangian's case, let's measure how many people are left alive after the Desolation.

• Case 1: Taravangian does nothing but care for his city.
• Case 2: Taravangian kills people for their prophecies and tries to save the world.

These are two actions. We want to know which is 'better' according to our measure(s). We don't know what will happen, not for sure, but we can predict it as well as we're able. Here's a potential set of consequences:

• Case 1: Everyone on Roshar dies to the Voidbringers.
• Case 2: A lot of people die to the Voidbringers, but they are driven back. We also have some dead people we murdered.

In this case, we are trying to see which action leads to a better outcome based on what we're measuring. In this case, number of lives. We want more people alive, so we pick option 2 as the best case. Assuming our predictions here are true (big assumption) then the 'greater good of maximizing live people' says we should start murdering people for prophecies if we want more people to be alive.

 

This is oversimplified. There's more (a lot more) than 2 options. But this is the basics of decision systems. Figure out what you want, figure out ways you can manipulate the world, predict what the consequences will be, and choose the one which leads to the best outcome according to a system you've decided. The real question is deciding what you want to measure. If you want to choose 'whatever makes Taravangian happy', that's an option. I don't think it's what Taravangian chose, though.

 

When you talk about "doing the right thing because it is good", you haven't made yourself clear. You need to know what you think is 'good'.  When most people talk about 'good' and 'right', they have some fuzzy internal feelings. They think of situations, and they 'feel' that it's 'good' or 'bad'. If it makes them sad, or angry (Amaram betraying Kaladin) then they call it 'evil' and if it makes them happy (Kaladin saving Dalinar) they call it 'good'. It's not as simple as feelings, and is a good deal more complex, but I hope my point is clear: I have no idea what you mean you say

because you haven't told me what good is. Your ideas on what is good are not going to be the same as every person, so the best I can hope to say is that 'good as defined by Auri are things that Auri will say are good when shown to Auri'. Frankly, the word 'good' is so vague and ill defined that I would prefer people stop using it.

 

I apologize for going a bit off topic with this part of my post. Philosophy in respect to language is basically the only worthwhile philosophy in my mind. Wittgenstein famously remarked with his one book on language (his Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus) that he had solved all philosophical problems. Perhaps not entirely correct, but not too far off the mark, I think. Clarity of language is important for these kinds of discussions.

 

 

Right, but you're missing this important bit: you don't have to die. In Taravangian's world (where he's ruling with an iron fist), it is possible he could deal with the Desolation and have nobody die to the Voidbringers. Your chances of dying are less than 1% in this case, and vary wildly depending on whether or not you're poor or suffering from a terminal illness.

 

With Dalinar, he fights the Voidbringers without special knowledge, and now you're at a 90% chance of death.

 

The issue of Taravangian vs Dalinar is much more complex than who you would prefer to die with, I think. If Taravangian offers a higher chance of living, and I feel he does, then I think I'd go with him. There's a lot to consider though. Can't wait for WoR.

 

I've bolded some statements that I feel weakens your arguments. First, it is simply not a 'fact of the world' but a perspective and therefore opinion. When you say "take a set of measures" you have effectively decided based on your opinion. This is what I'm trying to make clear, someone has to decide and I'd rather not die just because someone's opinion calls for my death.

 

Secondly, even if we're not clear on what is "good" or "right" as subjective, I'm sure we can at least agree that if you're in a hospital you're not there to be killed? Even if we only base things on the Golden Rule as a baseline, Mr. T still fails the moral compass test as he offers no real alternative for his victims except, as evidenced by that dying man, to hold their silence and express their contempt.

 

Your second case is actually three assumptions none of which are guaranteed which leads me to my third point. That no matter how much we know, fantasy world or not, we can predict but we can't guarantee. We don't even know for sure whether Voidbringers are really there to destroy the world and kill everybody. We don't even know if the death chants are what they seem to be, we don't know if anything we've been told is real at all. So, Mr. T just killed  a lot of people he wasn't meant to be killing on the off-chance that he's right.

 

Fourthly, you speak as if these dying people are the only source of knowledge on Roshar. Reckon Mr. T tried to look for Envisagers? Or talked to the Worldsingers? Or maybe to Rock's people as they see spren? The spren seem to know a lot more of those times and what to expect than any dying human does as evidenced by the Lift Interlude.

 

And finally, if you were an ardent working for Mr. T and I a vagrant who "found my way" into your hospital, tell me again how I won't be doing any dying soon.

[Shardlet]

I don't know Moogle.  You are working on one key underlying assumption that we have no reason to believe is accurate.  For all of Taravangian's good intentions (which, by all appearances, do seem to be genuine), will his method and strategy work.  The only tools he has used so far in quest to save the world are murder, assassination, and documentation.  Recording and attempting to draw knowledge and understanding from the death cries are fine, obviously.  But, a key underlying theme of WoK at least is Journey Before Destination.  The way you get there is more important that just getting there.  The ends do not justify the means.  And it is not appropriate to characterize Szeth's targets as a few warlords.  We have no reason to suspect that any of Szeth's targets have been warlords.  The only warlords we have been introduced to in WoK is the Alethi highprinces.  The Azish, at the very least, do not seem well-suited for aggression.  I think it may be safely asumed that Jah Keved is well-trained in war (as one would expect a nation which strongly borders Alethkar to be) and that they are militarily second to Alethkar (as evidenced by the competitve number of plate and blades).  But, they do not appear to be conquest driven. 

 

One aspect that has not been mentioned is, what are the secondary costs of these assassinations?  Some nations will proceed with a smooth transition of power (although, it appears that Taravangian keeps going until their is political turmoil, evidence Azir).  What chaos, death, and destruction, has and will occur as the rulers of these nations are systematicaly slaughtered?  I suspect we will see some of this in WoR.  At that point, we can better evaluate how bad it is to murder a few warlords.

 

Your principal criticisms of the Alethi (and, by extension Dalinar) is their warlike nature and their constant border skirmishes and their relentless pursuit of the Parshendi.  True, the Alethi are very conquest oriented, and under the wrong king, there would soon be a war of conquest between a united Alethkar and Jah Keved, at least.  The border skirmishes are strong evidence of the lack of unity between the highprinces.  And you are correct that war is a horrible thing regardless of cause.

 

However, as was pointed out earlier, the Alethi did seek to understand why the assassination happened.  And it does not matter if they sent 5 or 500 scholars and envoys to the Parshendi.  Your request for a number in order to apparently weigh their genuineness is a little irrational.  How many envoys need to be sent home in a box before the Alethi are supposed to understand that the Parshendi didn't want to talk about it.  The Parshendi acknowledged that they ordered the assassination.  Their delegation to the feast fled before Gavilar's body was cold.  If the Parshendi leaders were unaware of the source of the assassin, they would have had no reason to flee since the assassin would not have been traceable to the Parshendi without capture of Szeth or admission from the Parshendi.  The Parshendi intentionally acted to drastically change the course of the Alethi.

 

And Taravangian who you have been working so hard to defend, who, again, has good intentions, we know very little about his plan and his goals.  True, we see the big picture goal of trying to bring Roshar through the desolation.

 

Dalinar has clearly changed since the assassination of Gavilar.  You criticize the result of trusting Sadeas and acting with honor in his dealings with Sadeas.  He acted on some pretty potent info that he believed indicated that he should trust Sadeas.  He thought he had received an answer to a direct question.  He only found out after the fact that the answer he got was not a response but a recording, if you will.  Dalinar's mistake was one of interpretation.  He is a smart guy.  He has shown himself to be very politically savvy when is comes to directing Elhokar's interests.  He doesn't think he is politically savvy and as a result has failed to apply his skills to his personal goals and needs.  I think we will see a much more confident and politically able Dalinar in WoR.

 

Personally, I think any one of the four in the blurb, could be the destroyer.  All four stand at crucial apexes.  Shallan has the least leverage so far, but that seems to be changing rapidly.  Don't count her out of the running.

 

Journey before destination alone tells me that Taravangian is on the wrong path and the Dalinar has taken the exit to get off the path he was on and is traveling to reach the correct path.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Shardlet

[hoser]

I am fond of saying that I know nothing, but I exaggerate, as I really know very little, and much of that is wrong.

One thing I think I know is that, to reach conclusions, one must make assumptions.  The conclusions are only as good as the assumptions (Garbage In, Garbage Out).  No matter how smart a person or group is, they are liable to have erroneous assumptions based on cultural biases and the reality behind "There are more things in Brandon's cosmere, Taravangio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

 

Roshar will only take one road, and the victors will write the history, so we will never know what would have happened if Mr. T had not chosen to be a mass murderer twice over. 

 

Rosharan history does seem to say that Nohadon's time of the sword followed by the Radiant Era was a better time for humanity than what preceeded it.  This at least suggests that Mr. T's path is not the only workable one.  While Mr. T may not end up being the new Alakavish, his means should be the last resort. 

Has anyone considered that the saving and destroying are not two things? If this is from the point of view of spren, perhaps by saving the world they destroy the spren?

This is a good point for me, as examining the quote we are given seems to point to many interesting possibilities.  It is an in-cosmere quote, apparently, so it is potentially fallible, for one thing. 

What if the destruction is necessary for the redemption?

From Sadeas's POV, Dalinar is destroying the Alethi.  The one who may save the world may need to change it (and really, it would benefit from some changes), before they can save it.  Change involves destruction, whether it be the apparently successful changes of Nohadon or the less certain changes that both Mr. T and Dalinar are implementing.  Being the destroyer may involve some Sandersonian twists. 

 

Eveorjoy says the following:
 

From the back of WOK.

 

Quote

 

One of them may redeem us.

And one of them will destroy us.

 

I suppose that "one" could be the same person, but it doesn't read that way.

 

 

But my copy reads:

One of them may redeem us. One of them will destroy us.

Which I can read as the redeemer and the destroyer being the same person, as 18th Shard apparently did.

Edited December 27, 2013 by hoser

[Kier]

Moogle the big problem I have with your theory here, Is that you seem to think knowing the death chants will save the world. 

 

From what we know, The Radiants, the Heralds, and the surgebinders were needed to defend against the voidbringers and the desolations in times past. You needed people that knew war, were good at war, and had magic to back it up. 

• All Taravangian has is knowledge. And while Knowledge is good, it isn't going to save anyone from a thunderclast curshing them with their long slender stone fingers.
  

You arguement to me is like saying if NASA saw and astriod coming towards earth and we knew it was most likely going to wipe everything out (as demonstrated by fossils and geological setimant from earths past.) and they spent there time finding out what color the astriod was, how fast it was moving, what it was made of, and where it was going to impact earth. And than say, well we really need to develop a new kind of long range bomb that we can shoot at it to get it off course, but we were to curious about the astriod itself and now we dont have time.

 

Taravangian should be collecting and bribing and researching surgbinding and getting surgbinders to fight the desolations, Esspecially since he knows how long we have until it comes, not murdering people to get random tidbits of info for no reason. 

 

For this reason, I choose Dalinar, becuase whether or not you like War, it is most likely that War is coming. 

 

Also, I'm convinced the "Unite Them" from Honor, is "Unite the Knights Radiant." What do we know about the visions? they are from Honor, and they "Always revolve around the Knights Radiant." (Dalinar says that, or something similar) and how do they Usually, if not  always end? Honor Commanding Dalinar to "Unite Them" it isn't hard to put 2 and 2 together and realize Oh, he probably means to Unite the thing the people that hte visions are about, I.E, The KR. 

 

Why? Oh, right, Because Honor thinks that The KR is the best be for Humanity to survive the Desolation. That seems pretty logical to me. Not the rambilings of people seeing Shadsmar, desolations, or the 10 fools on their deathbeds.

 

For this reason I choose Dalinar. 

 

As to who might actually be the destoryer my bet is really with Kaladin. Mostly because I see him as unstable. I do think he is coming down the right path, and is on his way to not being the destoryer. However, him slipping, seeing Dalinar do somethign he feels is unjust, I can see that causing him to go over that edge and go further than just being the Wretch. but casting off Syl, judging Syl as joinging the light eyes, and Killing Dalinar and as many lighteyes as he can. Thereby destroying the Knights Radiant before they were able to turely become united and leaving the world with only randome ramblings and a halfwit with know experience in war to protect form a formitable, cunning, and, masterful warbringer.

 

Good luck with that.

[+eveorjoy]

But my copy reads:

Which I can read as the redeemer and the destroyer being the same person, as 18th Shard apparently did.

 

Interesting, My copy of Wok is an ebook and I got the quote from the Brandon's site. I wonder which is the quote Brandon intended.

[MathEpic]

In trying to find out who the last two lines of the epigraph are referring to, it may be necessary to ask who is speaking here.  Here is my analysis of some of the lines I found insightful.

 

The first line reads "I long for the days before the Last Desolation."

 

This means the writer is not some anonymous third person narrator, but someone vitally concerned with Roshar.  It also indicates that he knows a lot about the old days.  This is supported by the next paragraph where he describes the time period with more detail then the typical 'modern' person can give.

 

"The world became ours"

 

Since Roshar belongs to humanity we can assume that the author is a human living on Roshar or someone else that identifies with Rosharian humanity as 'my side'.  This means the author is probably not a worldhopper.

 

"There are four whom we watch."

 

This is where things get a little meta.  The author is ostensibly referring to the book TWoK.  However, TWok does not exist in the context of the story.  (There is an in universe book with that name, but it is not the same book as the one on my desk here.)  Furthermore there does not seem to any entity that would have a reason to keep tabs on these four people.  Is suspect that the epigraph was written from the point of view of a hypothetical Roshar citizen that somehow knows more than anyone else about what is going on.  That person would know more then us regarding the capabilities and destinies of each of the four.

 

"These four people are key."

 

This seems to indicate that Kalladin, Szeth, Shalan, and Dallinar will all be important through the whole story, not just in one or two books.

 

I really doubt Dallinar will die anytime soon.

 

----

 

Regarding Taravangain, if he was doing what needed to be done because there was no other way to do it I might be inclined to give him some credit.  However, it seems to me that he is more interested in making sure he is the one to save the world that he is willing to destroy some of the people that he needs to save it.

 

Here is a better plan for getting the death statments he feels he needs:

1. Make public the information that he has.

2. Contact the other world leaders that he thinks will cooperate, and ask them to collect and share the death cries they obtain.

3. Lend staff to help set up the system of collecting and distributing the information.

 

Ways this plan is better:

• He can get the death cries made in several nations, rather than just his city state.
• It encourages the nations of the world to offer medical care to the ill as a side benefit.
• It establishes a habit of the nations of the world to listen to Taravangain that he can build on to form a loose hegemony.
• The world leaders that opt in to the program will learn the gravity of the situation before things get bad.
• Communication infrastructure would necessarily be built across the world.  This is a useful thing when the world is about to end.
• If something else weird happens in one nation (like someone seeing visions of the Knights Radiant during highstorms) they would have a reason to pass what they know to Taravangain.
• If Taravangain were to pass away unexpectedly (or lose his power in a coup) before the completion of the 'save the world' project there would be a way for someone else to step into his position.
• The cost of the project is divided up between all nations that participate and not just Kharbranth

The only way I see Taravagain's current plan is "better" is that he gets to be the one to call all the shots.  This is the reason he is a villain.  He lets his ambition and desire to seize what he views as his destiny force him down a path that dooms the world.

Edited December 27, 2013 by MathEpic

[Kier]

In trying to find out who the last two lines of the epigraph are referring to, it may be necessary to ask who is speaking here.  Here is my analysis of some of the lines I found insightful.

 

The first line reads "I long for the days before the Last Desolation."

 

This means the writer is not some anonymous third person narrator, but someone vitally concerned with Roshar.  It also indicates that he knows a lot about the old days.  This is supported by the next paragraph where he describes the time period with more detail then the typical 'modern' person can give.

 

"The world became ours"

 

Since Roshar belongs to humanity we can assume that the author is a human living on Roshar or someone else that identifies with Rosharian humanity as 'my side'.  This means the author is probably not a worldhopper.

 

"There are four whom we watch."

 

This is where things get a little meta.  The author is ostensibly referring to the book TWoK.  However, TWok does not exist in the context of the story.  (There is an in universe book with that name, but it is not the same book as the one on my desk here.)  Furthermore there does not seem to any entity that would have a reason to keep tabs on these four people.  Is suspect that the epigraph was written from the point of view of a hypothetical Roshar citizen that somehow knows more than anyone else about what is going on.  That person would know more then us regarding the capabilities and destinies of each of the four.

 

"These four people are key."

 

This seems to indicate that Kalladin, Szeth, Shalan, and Dallinar will all be important through the whole story, not just in one or two books.

 

I really doubt Dallinar will die anytime soon.

 

I agree with everything you have said. And I also think it is very usefull information. To me, the "The world became ours" refers to spren bonds. 

 

To me it seems obvious that the spren are native to Roshar and more importantly they "are the world" if you get my drift. Humans on the other hand are not native to Roshar. and I think this reffrence is to the time that humans learned and were actively bonding with the spren. I.e. the world was theirs.

 

 

Regarding Taravangain, if he was doing what needed to be done because there was no other way to do it I might be inclined to give him some credit.  However, it seems to me that he is more interested in making sure he is the one to save the world that he is willing to destroy some of the people that he needs to save it.

 

Here is a better plan for getting the death statments he feels he needs:

1. Make public the information that he has.

2. Contact the other world leaders that he thinks will cooperate, and ask them to collect and share the death cries they obtain.

3. Lend staff to help set up the system of collecting and distributing the information.

 

Ways this plan is better:

• He can get the death cries made in several nations, rather than just his city state.
• It encourages the nations of the world to offer medical care to the ill as a side benefit.
• It establishes a habit of the nations of the world to listen to Taravangain that he can build on to form a loose hegemony.
• The world leaders that opt in to the program will learn the gravity of the situation before things get bad.
• Communication infrastructure would necessarily be built across the world.  This is a useful thing when the world is about to end.
• If something else weird happens in one nation (like someone seeing visions of the Knights Radiant during highstorms) they would have a reason to pass what they know to Taravangain.
• If Taravangain were to pass away unexpectedly (or lose his power in a coup) before the completion of the 'save the world' project there would be a way for someone else to step into his position.
• The cost of the project is divided up between all nations that participate and not just Kharbranth

The only way I see Taravagain's current plan is "better" is that he gets to be the one to call all the shots.  This is the reason he is a villain.  He lets his ambition and desire to seize what he views as his destiny force him down a path that dooms the world.

I also strongly agree with this. 

[name_here]

I think T might be planning to unite the world under his control for the Desolation, and is working to destroy all existing power structures to facilitate that. The Alethi are the most powerful military force on Roshar, so if someone else unites the Highprinces it would be extremely difficult to force them into line. I hardly approve of his methods, but I could potentially see it working. For the moment, I'm reserving moral judgement; his plan is justified if and only if he had reason to believe it would work and more palatable alternatives would not. Personally, I think he'd be better off spreading the information around, but he might have reasonably concluded that he has little chance of convincing the leaders of other nations.

 

The death quotes are potentially pretty valuable if they can be correctly interpreted. Whatever their precise source, they appear to contain information on Desolations that is not otherwise available and predict future events. There's no reason to believe that the king of a city with the largest library on the continent and who clearly knows a good bit about Shin culture and current events has not accessed other sources of information, but the prior Desolation was thousands of years ago. Any remaining information is at best fragmentary and much of it is of questionable veracity. I would not be quick to dismiss gathering death quotes as pointless. From what fragments we have, I get the distinct sense that even if all of Roshar's military might is gathered together, they'll still need an edge. For instance, it would be pretty great if they knew where and when it would start, what sort of tactics Voidbringers might use, what forms they take and what weapons work against those, and, oh, anything at all about Odium.  I don't know that they're so critical to saving the world that kidnapping and murder to collect them is justified, however. 

 

However, I also can't condemn the Alethi in general or Dalinar in particular. The Parshendi assassinated a king under the cover of creating an alliance, and as far as the Alethi can tell it was unprovoked. Anything less than the arrest and execution of the responsible parties would have been unacceptable to the Alethi. The Parshendi did nothing of the kind. Now, Dalinar had come to feel the war was dragging into a stalemate and undermining the stability of the kingdom, so he wanted to look into a negotiated settlement, but the Alethi in general dislike backing down, so instead Dalinar opted to work for a change of strategy to force the war to a swift conclusion.

 

As for their border skirmishes, that's historically not actually uncommon. The Highprinces can call on large bodies of troops in their own right, so when they have territorial disputes they can resort to force of arms to resolve them. Since their power does not come from Elhokar, attempting to force them to heel risks a civil war. And it's fairly likely that if he tries to depose a Highprince for anything short of high treason, the others will revolt out of fear they'll be next. Plus, he's in the middle of a war, so he really can't afford to anger any Highprince badly enough for them to pull out. Once the war is over, he'll have a freer hand and theoretically the backing of the two most powerful Highprinces, leaving him in a much better position to start actually accomplishing things.

 

I'll grant they are culturally inclined towards aggression, though. They've got a ruling warrior class, who justify their positions by combat prowess. That doesn't really lend itself to peace and stability.

[Shardbearer]

I think he would go to war, but I don't think he would do it lightly. The Alethi do it at the drop of a hat. Taravangian has shown no hatred, no real aggression so far as we've seen.

 

 

 

 

The Alethi are in a war that the Parshendi started by assasinating their king, right after they signed a peace treaty.

 

Taravangian, on the other hand, has ordered the assassination of dozens (at least) of rulers. Not only that, but he also ordered Szeth to make a spectacle of it and murder hundreds if not thousands of innocent bystanders in the process. This can only result in untold chaos and death, as has been pointed out.

 

These are acts of war that Taravanigan initiated against other kingdoms who have not wronged him or his nation in any way. He seems to believe that what he is doing is necessary, but his methods are all wrong, and are as likely to lead to widespread chaos and destruction as the Desolations he's trying to prepare for or prevent.

[Moogle]

I was going to go through each post and respond to everything individually, but there's just a little too much to go through. Apologies I can't give everyone's thoughtful posts the responses they deserve. Further apologies for offending someone enough to get downvotes.

 

To clarify, I don't know that Taravangian will save the world, nor do I know that the death prophecies give enough information. It is impossible to be certain of anything, but that's no excuse to do nothing. If there's even a 10% chance that with the death prophecies, Taravangian can save the world, then it's probably worth the murder he's committing in my mind. Any statistics I bring up (like a 1% chance of death if Taravangian goes through with things) are intended to be examples of potential situations to showcase the potential for Taravangian to be a better choice than Dalinar.

 

Where do you get that from the text? Even when the humans knew what they were dealing with, having a lot more information than Taravagian, nine in ten died. Genius can only work with the information it has and the ramblings of the dying are not giving very clear information.

...

Also, Dalinar is getting visions from the Almighty and now understands the nature of those visions. So he has special knowledge and likely more than Taravangian does. Taravangian maybe a genius, but he still only has confusing information to go on. Dalinar is receiving clear information, that it appears at this point Taravangian is not.

 

I apologize if this comes across as offensive, but where's the useful, clear information that Dalinar's receiving? It's a pet peeve of mine that Tanavast was so darn vague and useless. "Unite them". Unite who? (The Radiants, apparently, not that Tanavast was clear enough to tell Dalinar that.) Did he give Dalinar any useful combat information against the Voidbringers? (Maybe the Midnight Essence.) Did the visions tell Dalinar when the Desolation was going to come? Did the visions even tell Dalinar why the Recreance happened? How about telling him about all the different Surgebinding powers, or how he could find Surgebinders, or about how the Nahel bond occurred? Knowing more about the bond would help him reform the Knights Radiant, but Tanavast decided it would be too easy to tell him about it. Did the visions show Dalinar the Heralds, so he could vet Taln as not being a crazy guy with a Shardblade? No. I don't see Dalinar's special knowledge here, besides the fact that he at least knows the Desolation is coming at some point (which is useful, but Taravangian's got the date).

 

Taravangian, bare minimum, has been given a timeframe from his information: 1000 days. He obviously thinks the death prophecies are useful enough that he's willing to kill people to get them, and we only have the smallest fraction of the prophecies he has (not to mention, only the prophecies that make sense from a foreshadowing perspective by the author).

 

I'd rather not die just because someone's opinion calls for my death.

 

I, too, would rather not die just because someone wanted me to die. It's a preference, you could say, and not necessarily one everyone else shares, nor is there any law of the universe that states that people have to take my preferences into consideration.

 

 

 

Secondly, even if we're not clear on what is "good" or "right" as subjective, I'm sure we can at least agree that if you're in a hospital you're not there to be killed? Even if we only base things on the Golden Rule as a baseline, Mr. T still fails the moral compass test as he offers no real alternative for his victims except, as evidenced by that dying man, to hold their silence and express their contempt.

 

I don't think we can agree on that. Taravangian offers a potential reason that if you're in a hospital, there may very well be reason for you to be killed. I don't see why Mr. T needs to offer alternatives. He's trying to save the world, not make his victims more comfortable. It's unfortunate for the people dying, but obviously Mr. T thinks that their pain is worth the potential lives saved. I don't have enough information to judge whether the prophecies are worth the suffering myself, but they very well might be.

 

The Golden Rule is something I find pleasing, and I strive to keep to it, but I don't think it's necessary or that following it 100% all the time is going to lead to the best results. I'm not going to treat a murderer who's currently stabbing a woman the way I want to be treated, I'm going to tackle him/shoot him/call the cops/whatever.

 

Your second case is actually three assumptions none of which are guaranteed which leads me to my third point. That no matter how much we know, fantasy world or not, we can predict but we can't guarantee. We don't even know for sure whether Voidbringers are really there to destroy the world and kill everybody. We don't even know if the death chants are what they seem to be, we don't know if anything we've been told is real at all. So, Mr. T just killed  a lot of people he wasn't meant to be killing on the off-chance that he's right.

 

You can't be certain, but you can use probabilities and math to figure out expected results. Besides, we, the readers, know the death chants are likely true (a prophecy about Kaladin came about quite nicely). Taravangian has so many prophecies that he may very well have verified that they are true as well through other means. Keep in mind we were only given a select few by the author which were intended to be vague. Taravangian might have better ones. Even if there was only an 'off-chance' that Taravangian was going to receive useful information, it may still be worth it.

 

If you can kill 1 person and have a 10% chance of saving a million people, or else do nothing, I would certainly hope people would take the first option. Again, this may be somewhere where I disagree with most people.

 

I really liked your post, Shardlet. I worry people will just have their eyes glaze over at this post length, so I'll just respond in brief bullet points to it:

1. We don't know if his strategy will work. If there's a chance of it working, though, I think it merits further investigation and potentially following through with it.
2. I agree that there is the theme of journey before destination, I agree that Amaram and Taravangian are acting counter to it, I do not agree that this necessarily means that "the way you get there is more important than just getting there" or that they should not have done what they did. Just because the Radiants get power from believing in their ideals does not make the belief true (in whatever way morals can be true). Taravangian, a non-Surgebinder, may very well end up being just as effective as any Radiant (though I admit it to be unlikely from a plot perspective, I ignore that while looking at things from Taravangian's perspective).
3. I highly disagree that Jah Keved is not conquest driven. We don't know enough to say that. With Odium in the world, I strongly suspect they're not peaceful. We need more information to say anything with confidence.
4. The secondary costs of the assassinations, as you bring up (chaos and civil wars) are potentially quite high. I would hope Taravangian would have evaluated them. We'll see in WoR, as you say.
5. We don't even know if the Parshendi killed the envoys. People bring up that like it's a fact, when it's never actually mentioned so far as I know. Given how honorable the Parshendi have acted, I doubt they killed anyone flying a white flag (or Roshar equivalent). My request for the number of envoys sent is tied into a request for information proving they were killed. It's possible the Alethi sent envoys, and the Parshendi just ignored them.
6. Dalinar's mistake, his misinterpretation, does not speak highly of his intelligence to me. He's not stupid (figuring out Elhokar's trick was nice, if I do say so). I may have been too harsh on Dalinar in some areas, but I was busy going "what the heck?" during every single one of his visions, and when Tanavast supposedly directly answered one of Dalinar's questions, it was suspicious to me. Particularly considering that was the only time he directly 'answered' him, and his answer wasn't even very good.
   
   Here's the question from Dalinar, by the way: “I have trusted Highprince Sadeas, but my son—Adolin—thinks I am a fool to do so. Should I continue to trust Sadeas?”
   “Yes,” the being said. “This is important. Do not let strife consume you. Be strong. Act with honor, and honor will aid you.”
   
   Perhaps it's hindsight bias, but I think the 'answer' here sucks. Tanavast doesn't even reference Sadeas, and the second part of the answer doesn't really address the question.
7. If we're accepting journey before destination, naturally Taravangian is wrong. I don't think anyone disagrees with that, I think we're disagreeing on accepting journey before destination.

Your post was well-written, Shardlet. Many deserved upvotes are yours.

 

 

Rosharan history does seem to say that Nohadon's time of the sword followed by the Radiant Era was a better time for humanity than what preceeded it.  This at least suggests that Mr. T's path is not the only workable one.  While Mr. T may not end up being the new Alakavish, his means should be the last resort.

 

Mr. T's path is the path of the sword. Same as Gavilar's, who went on a giant campaign to conquer all the other highprinces. Taravangian is murdering people and forcing people to follow him. Similar to Dalinar, though Dalinar is doing a bit less murdering (though probably not by much). To me, this suggests Taravangian's path is quite workable. It worked for everyone else.

 

 

You arguement to me is like saying if NASA saw and astriod coming towards earth and we knew it was most likely going to wipe everything out (as demonstrated by fossils and geological setimant from earths past.) and they spent there time finding out what color the astriod was, how fast it was moving, what it was made of, and where it was going to impact earth. And than say, well we really need to develop a new kind of long range bomb that we can shoot at it to get it off course, but we were to curious about the astriod itself and now we dont have time.

 

Knowing how fast the asteroid is moving is vital to deflecting it. What it's made of is just as valuable, because if you know what it's made of, you can figure out how much it weighs, and how much force you need to apply to deflect the asteroid. With basic high school physics, you can reasonably figure out from there how to save the earth.

 

You can't just throw a bomb at an asteroid and call it a day. Bombs don't work very well in space. You need to calculate where precisely to throw the bomb (if you're even using a bomb) so as to deflect it, and this means knowledge is necessary. Your analogy just implies to me that Taravangian is right in trying to collect more knowledge.

 

 

 

Why? Oh, right, Because Honor thinks that The KR is the best be for Humanity to survive the Desolation. That seems pretty logical to me. Not the rambilings of people seeing Shadsmar, desolations, or the 10 fools on their deathbeds.

 

Honor got himself whacked. He also was incapable of beating Odium. I am not particularly impressed by Honor, nor do I believe that following Honor's plan is the best course of action when he failed that fundamentally. in the absence of other plans, sure, we'll go with reforming the Knights Radiant (probably a good plan anyways, they have useful powers), but keep in mind that when everyone followed the Radiants, the Desolations kept happening. A more permanent solution would be nice. Taravangian might find one with his death whispers.

 

 

Here is a better plan for getting the death statments he feels he needs:

1. Make public the information that he has.

2. Contact the other world leaders that he thinks will cooperate, and ask them to collect and share the death cries they obtain.

3. Lend staff to help set up the system of collecting and distributing the information.

 

Ways this plan is better:

• He can get the death cries made in several nations, rather than just his city state.
• It encourages the nations of the world to offer medical care to the ill as a side benefit.
• It establishes a habit of the nations of the world to listen to Taravangain that he can build on to form a loose hegemony.
• The world leaders that opt in to the program will learn the gravity of the situation before things get bad.
• Communication infrastructure would necessarily be built across the world.  This is a useful thing when the world is about to end.
• If something else weird happens in one nation (like someone seeing visions of the Knights Radiant during highstorms) they would have a reason to pass what they know to Taravangain.
• If Taravangain were to pass away unexpectedly (or lose his power in a coup) before the completion of the 'save the world' project there would be a way for someone else to step into his position.
• The cost of the project is divided up between all nations that participate and not just Kharbranth

The only way I see Taravagain's current plan is "better" is that he gets to be the one to call all the shots.  This is the reason he is a villain.  He lets his ambition and desire to seize what he views as his destiny force him down a path that dooms the world.

 

Your plan assumes that other leaders would cooperate, and it further assumes that there wouldn't be a mass panic. Humans are irrational at the best of times. That said, I think your plan could be workable. Taravangian didn't use it for some reason, though. If it's because he suffers from major pride, arrogance, and ambition, then he is a villain. It remains to be proven that Taravangian is any of those things, however. I certainly haven't gotten that impression from him.

 

Any defenses I have for Taravangian are predicated by my belief that he is working to save the world, and choosing the path he feels has the best chance of success using his prodigious intelligence. If he is in fact doing it because he wants power, or for any other reason other than trying to help the world, then obviously he's not a great guy.

 

As a closing note to this ridiculously long post, we don't have enough information to say much about Taravangian. I am not trying to argue that Taravangian is a great guy, I am trying to argue that we don't know he's a terrible guy, and offering potential situations where what he's doing is the right choice to beat back the Desolation. Going by the Knights Radiant' Ideals, obviously Taravangian would be doing things badly. It remains to be proven to me that the Knights Radiant and their ideals are the best course of action, particularly from the perspective of someone in-world who doesn't know about the Shards of Adonalsium and that Honor was on Roshar. I think it very possible that Taravangian is acting as best as he can with the information he has.

[Kier]

I was going to go through each post and respond to everything individually, but there's just a little too much to go through. Apologies I can't give everyone's thoughtful posts the responses they deserve. Further apologies for offending someone enough to get downvotes.

 

 

I'm sorry you got downvotes, thats not cool, your just stating your position strongly and there is nothing wrong with that. I gave you an upvote, hopefully it can help offset that. 

 

That being said, I can agree with you that we don't really know if Taravangian is terrible. I also don't think he is. However, as my astroid analogy was... well the point I was trying to get at is you can spend to much time studying the thing instead of studying a solution or executing a solution. 

 

I feel like the Death Whispers are more about the general desoaltions and not often about solutions. I think Taravangian with his access to the larges library and the most scholars on Roshar could find more information about a solution than I think he is getting from the death whispers. 

 

For this reason, I think the solution is the KR, and therefore Dalinar the better choice. However, you do bring up some solid points in that when they followed the KR stuff really didn't get better... ever. 

 

Also, that we as the readers dont really have access to ALL the Death Whispers. Good points. 

[Shardlet]

...and we only have the smallest fraction of the prophecies he has (not to mention, only the prophecies that make sense from a foreshadowing perspective by the author).

 

By the same token, we only have a sampling of the storm visions.  It also appears that Dalinar did not remember the earlier visions judging by his reaction to the last vision in WoK (which was a repeat of the first vision).

 

I highly disagree that Jah Keved is not conquest driven. We don't know enough to say that. With Odium in the world, I strongly suspect they're not peaceful. We need more information to say anything with confidence.

 

If you'll recall, I did not affirm that the were not, I simply said that they did not appear to be so.  Consider, Alethkar is clearly conquest driven.  However, they are on the east side of Roshar.  On the west they are hemmed in by Jah Keved which is apparently nearly equal in strength (which it would be prudent to be so with such a neighbor).  On the other side of Jah Keved is a number of militarily weaker nations.  It seems to me that if Jah Keved was particularly conquest driven they would be picking off some of these weaker nations.

 

With "Odium in the world" would you say the Shin are peaceful?  How about the Azish, the Emuli, the Purelakers?  Odium is everywhere in the the world. Are we to assume that every nation is not peaceful?

[+eveorjoy]

@Moogle- I am not offended by your ideas or opinion. The only thing that bothered me was some of your judgements of the nature of my opinions and a somewhat condescending tone (not in your last post, but several posts back). I may appear to prefer pathos because I am a passionate debater. However, I prefer a logos based argument as well, as long as it applies to what is there. So giving me scenarios of what could be I won't agree with, but you are free to speculate. Honestly, if your opinion was that Odium should wipeout Roshar for the good of the cosmere, I wouldn't care. As wonderful and fun as this is and is to debate about, it is still just a book.

 

So no hard feelings and I never down voted you.

 

It seems you prefer Taravangain because:

 

*He is really smart, half the time.

*Kharbranth seems peaceful.

*You take him at his word.

 

And there is nothing wrong with that.

 

I disagree that Mr. T has a date for the Desolation to begin based on the current evidence we have.

 

Let's look at the death chant.

 

 

"The love of men is a frigid thing, a mountain stream only three steps from the ice. We are his. Oh Stormfather... we are his. It is but a thousand days, and the Everstorm comes." --Collected on the first day of the week of Palah of the month of Shash of the Year 1171, thirty-one seconds before death. Subject was a darkeyed pregnant woman of middle years. The child did not survive.

 

If you make assumptions based on an Earth time table, then it seems that the Everstorm will come about three years from the date that this death chant was recorded.

 

Making that assumption is already a mistake. Roshar has a different time table. This thread explains it in detail, but to sum up, a Rosharian year may in fact be 500 to 1000 days long.

 

So we really don't know how many years Roshar has left.

 

Secondly, we don't know when this death chant was recorded in relation to the story. It is the epigraph for the prologue, an event that occurred six to seven years before the main story.

 

Thirdly, the woman isn't saying when the thousand days begin. She is merely saying thousand days and then the Everstorm. Assuming that is giving us a date is no different than Dalinar assuming Tanavast said yes you can trust Sadeas.

 

Finally, if we assume that the woman's final words were proclaiming that the Everstorm was a year to two years off depending on what the calender really is, Mr. T was killing people off long before he got this date. So he hasn't been blooding people just because he knew he had little time left.

 

As for Dalinar, he is still receiving dreams from Tanavast, his first chapter in WOR will be another dream. Now that he understands the nature of them I think he will be able to understand more clearly what Tanavast is trying to tell him. Maybe Dalinar's visions haven't given him that much information yet, but they are a lot clearer than the ramblings of the dead.

 

In the end through, how useful either source of information is will not be shown until WOR and later books come out.

Edited December 28, 2013 by eveorjoy

[hoser]

I was going to go through each post  ...

 

hoser, on 27 Dec 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Rosharan history does seem to say that Nohadon's time of the sword followed by the Radiant Era was a better time for humanity than what preceeded it.  This at least suggests that Mr. T's path is not the only workable one.  While Mr. T may not end up being the new Alakavish, his means should be the last resort.

 

Mr. T's path is the path of the sword. Same as Gavilar's, who went on a giant campaign to conquer all the other highprinces. Taravangian is murdering people and forcing people to follow him. Similar to Dalinar, though Dalinar is doing a bit less murdering (though probably not by much). To me, this suggests Taravangian's path is quite workable. It worked for everyone else.

I apologize for my lack of clarity. 

 

When Nohadon had his "time of the sword", he used it to create an association of independent Kingdoms, which I imagine left the previous leadership structures largely in place.  Gavilar and Dalinar defeated the highprinces ... and left them as highprinces.  While there were undoubtedly bloody battles, the stakes were such that the losing side could surrender and chaos would not ensue.  In some sense, it was the minimum of violence required to unify, and a limited unification.  

 

This seems very different to me than Mr. T's decapitation plan.  Gavilar and Nohadon created associations of powerful leaders that retained a measure of authority and independence.  They minimized the destruction necessary to achieve that end.  They became, in a sense, the greatest of the greats. 

 

By contrast, Mr. T is destroying all effective leadership to become the last man standing among a set of nonentities. Who would then stand against him?  How is he likely to treat dissent?  Who else can add the brilliance of their leadership to his to create a greater whole?

 

I agree that Mr. T is violent like the others.  His violence seems to me to be directed differently and toward a very different end. 

 

While you decry the violence of the Alethi, the fact is that that they apparently respected each other and their neighbors unless attacked.  Gavilar and Dalinar reestablished the kingdom while apparently leaving the highprinces in place.  Mr. T is wreaking wanton unprovoked havoc worldwide. 

 

Any defenses I have for Taravangian are predicated by my belief that he is working to save the world, and choosing the path he feels has the best chance of success using his prodigious intelligence.... I think it very possible that Taravangian is acting as best as he can with the information he has.

Of course, Mr. T is doing his best.  As is Sadeas.  As is Rayse.  As is Dalinar, As was Shallan's father.  As was Kabsal.  "You did your best" is the consolation we offer children who have not succeeded.  It justifies nothing. 

[Moogle]

By the same token, we only have a sampling of the storm visions.  It also appears that Dalinar did not remember the earlier visions judging by his reaction to the last vision in WoK (which was a repeat of the first vision).

 

This is fair, but I would argue there's possibly thousands of prophecies, and perhaps 10-20 visions for Dalinar. It could be offset by the chance that Tanavast may be clearer in his other visions.

 

 

 

With "Odium in the world" would you say the Shin are peaceful?  How about the Azish, the Emuli, the Purelakers?  Odium is everywhere in the the world. Are we to assume that every nation is not peaceful?

 

A quick look at the map of Roshar tells me that the Azish and Shin are in the west, where Kaladin says there's less fighting when he's having his highstorm vision. I do recall him saying there was less fighting, not no fighting, though. I think saying there's minor conflicts in most places is not unreasonable, and it should be the default assumption on Roshar. The Shin seem peaceful, as do the Purelakers. I am less sure on the Azish and Emuli.

 

 

If you make assumptions based on an Earth time table, then it seems that the Everstorm will come about three years from the date that this death chant was recorded.

 

Making that assumption is already a mistake. Roshar has a different time table. This thread explains it in detail, but to sum up, a Rosharian year may in fact be 500 to 1000 days long.

 

So we really don't know how many years Roshar has left.

 

This is all true, and my mistake (I thought that a Rosharan year might be different). Nonetheless, we know it's 1000 days, and Taravangian and his scholars know how many years that is on Roshar.

 

The death chant had the date of death marked down at 1171. According to the Coppermind, Gavilar died in 1167. 1173 is when Dalinar is rescued by Kaladin. So it seems that, assuming 500 days to a Rosharan year, the Everstorm should arrive around the end of TWOK...

 

Which is when Taln arrives on the scene, saying the Desolation has come.

 

I think the prophecy in question was 100% correct in giving the date of the start of the Desolation based on that.

 

Either that, or it's a huge coincidence. But I am suspicious.

 

 

While you decry the violence of the Alethi, the fact is that that they apparently respected each other and their neighbors unless attacked.  Gavilar and Dalinar reestablished the kingdom while apparently leaving the highprinces in place.  Mr. T is wreaking wanton unprovoked havoc worldwide. 

 

Mr. T is killing upper-management. Kings, major leaders, and the poor unfortunates who are around them when Szeth comes around. The chaos produced in his wake might kill regular people, but we don't have any set numbers on that, and I certainly wouldn't say Azir or any other place Szeth has been is suffering particularly terribly. We have no evidence pointing that way. WoR spoilers:

Lift's interlude shows this. The Azish are worried, certainly, but there's no riots in the street, and they're just very concerned that they can't get anyone to step up to the plate to be a leader. Here's the worst I could find in the interlude:

 

“Six different monarchs killed...” one of the voices said, a new one. “In a mere two months. Highprinces slaughtered throughout the East. Religious leaders. And then, two Primes murdered in a matter of a single week. Storms...I almost think it’s another Desolation come upon us.”

“A Desolation in the form of a single man. Yaezir help the one we choose. It is a death sentence.”

“We have stalled too long as it is. These weeks of waiting with no Prime have been harmful to Azir. Let’s just pick the worst application. From this stack.”

 

 

Of course, Mr. T is doing his best.  As is Sadeas.  As is Rayse.  As is Dalinar, As was Shallan's father.  As was Kabsal.  "You did your best" is the consolation we offer children who have not succeeded.  It justifies nothing.

 

I agree. Using that phrase on my part was stupid. I was trying to convey my inability to think of what Taravangian could do better, what he's doing that's just been blatantly stupid. I'm not yet sold that killing off the ineffective leadership of most nations across Roshar is a bad plan, or that him revealing his information publicly would be helpful. I am very uncertain. We'll see how it works out in WoR.

 

 

The only thing that bothered me was some of your judgements of the nature of my opinions and a somewhat condescending tone (not in your last post, but several posts back).

 

I apologize and will keep a better eye out for that. It would explain why I was downvoted.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Moogle

[Gamma Fiend]

Just look what you've done, Mr. Sanderson!

It must be the greatest pleasure as an author to see threads full of posts dedicated to debating the ethics and nobilities of your characters.

[+eveorjoy]

This is all true, and my mistake (I thought that a Rosharan year might be different). Nonetheless, we know it's 1000 days, and Taravangian and his scholars know how many years that is on Roshar.

 

The death chant had the date of death marked down at 1171. According to the Coppermind, Gavilar died in 1167. 1173 is when Dalinar is rescued by Kaladin. So it seems that, assuming 500 days to a Rosharan year, the Everstorm should arrive around the end of TWOK...

 

Which is when Taln arrives on the scene, saying the Desolation has come.

 

I think the prophecy in question was 100% correct in giving the date of the start of the Desolation based on that.

 

Either that, or it's a huge coincidence. But I am suspicious.

 

Excellent research. it does prove your point, quite well. However, the epigraph says Everstorm, not Desolation. It depends on your definition of Everstorm. I thought the Everstorm was that wall of dust Dalinar saw in his vision, but I could be wrong.

 

I guess we will have to see how WOR expands on this.