Moogle Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) Actually, Dalinar is beginning to be sickened by the killing. He has episodes where the Thrill fades and is replaced by revulsion at the death around him. No, he's not as honourable as Kaladin in that respect, but bear in mind that Dalinar was a warmonger for most of his life, whereas Kaladin was raised to respect life. Also, a conclusive victory does not necessarily have to mean genocide. Just give them a thumping till they surrender or run away. (I'm not saying that's definitely what Dalinar would do, but it is a possibility.) I would agree though, he doesn't want to end the war out of compassion, but because it threatens Alethkar's stability as a nation. Dalinar is sickened by the Thrill, not the killing, or so my reading suggests. He doesn't like that he enjoys killing, he's neutral on the actual killing. I may be wrong on this. A conclusive victory can and will mean genocide. The Parshendi can't run away. They're boxed in on all sides thanks to geography. Don't you think they would have ran long ago if they could? If Dalinar can't stop the war, what makes you think he can stop the Alethi from taking 'vengeance' on a helpless, defeated foe? Edited January 15, 2014 by Moogle
TwistedMisting she/her Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 I believe he's sickened by the act of killing. There's one part where he sees a Parshendi youth, and reflects that he would only have been a child when Gavilar was murdered, then one of his soldiers kills the boy. He raises his hand to stop him but the soldier doesn't notice his gesture. I've read these episodes as the Thrill fading away, leaving him to be more aware of the horror and destruction, and be affected by that. You may be right that the Parshendi can't retreat, and probably even right that Dalinar wouldn't be able to stop the Alethi from taking vengeance on them. However, I believe that slaughtering them wouldn't be Dalinar's choice. He is too immersed in trying to live by the codes, and he believes that how you achieve victory is more important than the victory itself. So he wouldn't condone slaughtering a defeated enemy. Maybe that would even be his moment that will seal him as a surgebinder, if he stands up against his fellows to prevent a massacre. Don't forget either that the Parshendi got themselves into this position knowingly. We still don't know the reasons why. Think of Jasnah's comment in the WoR prologue. They also decided to put all their eggs in this one basket, again we don't know why, but I suspect we'll learn more via Eshonai.
Moogle Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) You may be right that the Parshendi can't retreat, and probably even right that Dalinar wouldn't be able to stop the Alethi from taking vengeance on them. However, I believe that slaughtering them wouldn't be Dalinar's choice. That is the point I am trying to get across. It is Dalinar's choice. He alone is responsible for the war effort being kicked into overdrive. He is responsible for every atrocity the soldiers under his 'command' do because of that decision. His decision to turn the war up is going to result in terrible consequences for the Parshendi. He has to be aware of the consequences of his actions, and is knowingly going through with them. This is the point I am making: Dalinar is a warlord, regardless of whether he likes war or not. Regardless if he wishes there could have been more diplomacy, regardless of whether he's sickened by killing, he's starting up the war again and there's going to be a lot of death. It's all on his head. I don't like him because of that. Other people do still like Dalinar, and I want to be convinced he's a great person but I'm just grasping at air here. Edited January 15, 2014 by Moogle
TwistedMisting she/her Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 I get the point, I really do. I guess I just view him slightly differently. I see him as someone who is trying to change himself and the society he lives in. However, we see a few times in WoK that he doesn't foresee the consequences of his actions. he's just not bright enough to realise. So I think of him as someone who's trying to do the right thing, but doesn't always see that there could be negative results to his actions. I don't see him as ill intentioned or evil as such. Just bumbling.
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 That is the point I am trying to get across. It is Dalinar's choice. He alone is responsible for the war effort being kicked into overdrive. He is responsible for every atrocity the soldiers under his 'command' do because of that decision. His decision to turn the war up is going to result in terrible consequences for the Parshendi. He has to be aware of the consequences of his actions, and is knowingly going through with them. This is the point I am making: Dalinar is a warlord, regardless of whether he likes war or not. Regardless if he wishes there could have been more diplomacy, regardless of whether he's sickened by killing, he's starting up the war again and there's going to be a lot of death. It's all on his head. I don't like him because of that. Other people do still like Dalinar, and I want to be convinced he's a great person but I'm just grasping at air here. I'd like to start by saying that I really don't care if you like him or not. I don't really like Szeth for a very similar reason, and lots of people sympathize with him. So the next statement is just for conversations sake. I think that the difference in this situation is that Dalinar's intention is to embrace the situation in order to end it. He is in command, but it has been clearly stated several times that the deed will be done regardless of Dalinar or even Elhokar's decisions. If they tried to put an end to the war, they'd be killed. They've also stated the aren't strong enough to defeat the highprinces that would be in opposition. We really only just learned that Dalinar's goal is to slowly (or not so slowly, but incrementally) change how the Alethi operate until they are following procedure and can be unified enough to leave. If anyone else were in charge, especially Sadeas, they would attempt to trample the Parshendii and just move to an all out invasion. If you view Dalinar in a vacuum, his decisions seem immoral. The context, I think, is what moves people to sympathize with him. I mean, you have to admit Brandon spent a considerable amount of time explaining his reasoning for those things in WoK, and now again it is the first thing we see from him in WoR. 1
Swimmingly he/him Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 I'd like to start by saying that I really don't care if you like him or not. I don't really like Szeth for a very similar reason, and lots of people sympathize with him. So the next statement is just for conversations sake. I think that the difference in this situation is that Dalinar's intention is to embrace the situation in order to end it. He is in command, but it has been clearly stated several times that the deed will be done regardless of Dalinar or even Elhokar's decisions. If they tried to put an end to the war, they'd be killed. They've also stated the aren't strong enough to defeat the highprinces that would be in opposition. We really only just learned that Dalinar's goal is to slowly (or not so slowly, but incrementally) change how the Alethi operate until they are following procedure and can be unified enough to leave. If anyone else were in charge, especially Sadeas, they would attempt to trample the Parshendii and just move to an all out invasion. If you view Dalinar in a vacuum, his decisions seem immoral. The context, I think, is what moves people to sympathize with him. I mean, you have to admit Brandon spent a considerable amount of time explaining his reasoning for those things in WoK, and now again it is the first thing we see from him in WoR. Why don't you like Szeth, then?
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 Why don't you like Szeth, then? Honor is a different reason entirely. To sacrifice something of your own when you have the ability to solve the problem is a much different scenario. Someone just recently made a post that I completely identified with. Szeth seems to have the most selfish motivation for slaughtering others. Unless Brandon shows us that his decisions are being hindered - like, impossible to physically to carry them out - then all of the reasoning he has given so far has been for his own benefit. It is a spiritual one, but his decision nonetheless. 1
Moogle Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) I agree on Szeth. He's fundamentally selfish - his reason for acting as he does is so that he will be in pain for eternity rather than cease to exist. And furthermore, that's entirely based on faith. I have major issues with him. That said, I rather like him. Can't say why. His chapters are always good, though his corny line about being death was just a liiiiittle over the top. Edited January 15, 2014 by Moogle
Swimmingly he/him Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 Honor is a different reason entirely. To sacrifice something of your own when you have the ability to solve the problem is a much different scenario. Someone just recently made a post that I completely identified with. Szeth seems to have the most selfish motivation for slaughtering others. Unless Brandon shows us that his decisions are being hindered - like, impossible to physically to carry them out - then all of the reasoning he has given so far has been for his own benefit. It is a spiritual one, but his decision nonetheless.I don't think he believes that he has a choice, however - to not carry out his orders is the same as death for him, and, though that might make him a coward, it does not make him evil. His world is one of Kill or Die. He chooses to kill, because to choose death is something not a lot of people can do.
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 I don't think he believes that he has a choice, however - to not carry out his orders is the same as death for him, and, though that might make him a coward, it does not make him evil. His world is one of Kill or Die. He chooses to kill, because to choose death is something not a lot of people can do. Cowardice is not an excuse to kill, especially when it is over a belief. He has an opportunity as well as the ability to change the outcome. Even if you believe that about Szeth - that he will die if he doesn't do it - it put him in the same boat as Dalinar except Dalinar actually can't do anything. If he tried to end things outright, nobody would follow. Szeth could stop it and die. Dalinar can only die.
Moogle Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) it put him in the same boat as Dalinar except Dalinar actually can't do anything. If he tried to end things outright, nobody would follow. Szeth could stop it and die. Dalinar can only die. Sudden realization! I've had "journey before destination" quoted at me so much that I may as well start using it myself. Maybe at some point it'll become truth to me. Whenever anyone brings up the fact that Dalinar couldn't actually stop the war, I can just say "journey before destination"! It's a fully general counter-response. Why didn't I think of this before? Dalinar, obviously, should follow the First Ideal and refuse to do a bad thing (war) even though he's going to fail. It's the journey that matters, not the destination, after all. Viewing the future and thinking of the consequences of your actions is bad. (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. I find the idea that I didn't realize I could use this before hilarious.) Edited January 15, 2014 by Moogle
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 Sudden realization! I've had "journey before destination" quoted at me so much that I may as well start using it myself. Maybe at some point it'll become truth to me. Whenever anyone brings up the fact that Dalinar couldn't actually stop the war, I can just say "journey before destination"! It's a fully general counter-response. Why didn't I think of this before? Dalinar, obviously, should follow the First Ideal and refuse to do a bad thing (war) even though he's going to fail. It's the journey that matters, not the destination, after all. Viewing the future and thinking of the consequences of your actions is bad. (I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. I find the idea that I didn't realize I could use this before hilarious.) Dalinar has two potential destinations: One is death via the journey of directness. The other, he believes, is unity for a nation and preservation of the planet by slowly turning around a bunch of knuckleheads. It's an all or nothing scenario, but I suppose if you decide the context doesn't determine his merit - to each his own.
Moogle Posted January 15, 2014 Posted January 15, 2014 (edited) Dalinar has two potential destinations: One is death via the journey of directness. The other, he believes, is unity for a nation and preservation of the planet by slowly turning around a bunch of knuckleheads. It's an all or nothing scenario, but I suppose if you decide the context doesn't determine his merit - to each his own. My god it's like I'm seeing myself in the mirror. Weren't you against Taravangian's plan for unifying the nation? I swear you were. I'm going to go check! Edit: Nope! Mixed you up with three or four different people. Sorry. And yes, I agree with you, of course. The destination matters to me (though not many others; we consequentialists are a minority on the forums here) , and the fact that not caring about the destination lets the Radiants achieve a better destination is an irony that tickles at the cold corners of my small black heart. My previous post was me being a horrible person. I just couldn't help myself. Edited January 16, 2014 by Moogle 1
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 My god it's like I'm seeing myself in the mirror. Weren't you against Taravangian's plan for unifying the nation? I swear you were. I'm going to go check! Edit: Nope! Mixed you up with three or four different people. Sorry. And yes, I agree with you, of course. The destination matters to me (though not many others; we consequentialists are a minority on the forums here) , and the fact that not caring about the destination lets the Radiants achieve a better destination is an irony that tickles at the cold corners of my small black heart. My previous post was me being a horrible person. I just couldn't help myself. Haha, no! My post was to say that I really can see that POV being fine. The goals vs. methods debate isn't limited to fantasy characters, and it's also the reason I'm not a big Szeth person even though the arguments are so similar.
Malim he/him Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 It seems to me that this debate has come down to two different world views on ethics. Specifically the greatest good for the greatest number (Utilitarianism or Pragmatism) vs. moral imperative (right intent and actions regardless of outcome). Philosophically this has been a bone of contention IRL for hundreds if not thousands of years. The fact that Mr. Sanderson has brought this conflict into a genre that tends to only deal with absolutes (pure good vs. pure evil) only deepens my respect for him. Mr. T can be broadly aligned with the RL philosophy of Utilitarianism such as described by Jeremy Bentham or John Stuart Mill: you do whatever you can to minimize harm to the greatest number of people, and if some have to be sacrificed to provide for that, then so be it. Dalinar and the KR can be aligned with philosophies such as the Categorical Imperative as proposed by Immanuel Kant: the morality of an action is determined soley by the intent behind the action, not its end result (journey before destination in the words of the books.) Both are sides of the same coin. They both are guides for ethical action in the face of absent or uncertain absolute morality. The question of which is right comes down to perspective, as does the question of which is more effective in the face of disaster. In this case, we just don't have enough information. It may well be that be that the only way to win the upcoming Desolation is to do what Mr T. is doing: gaining knowledge at the expense of certain individuals, then using this knowledge to fight. The problem is, I can't see what his endgame is. He is removing the world's leadership to place him in a position where he can take over, but I don't see any way that that can happen in the timeframe he is working with. I haven't seen any evidence of his emissaries moving into place to provide the people of these nations a reason to choose him as leader, and he doesn't seem to have an army capable of forcing his will onto so many nations in a few months or even a few years. Its like he thought out the first half of a football game, but has no plans for after half time. It may well be that there is a lot going on that we haven't seen, but we just don't have any evidence for it. Dalinar, on the other hand, has a definite end goal: Restore the KR by forcing the Alethi to unify. His problem is the opposite of Mr T's: he has no definite plan on how to accomplish this beyond some vague ideas about enforcing the codes. He has myriad problems to overcome including cultural, religious, military, etc, and he is purely a military man. While I personally like his character more, it seems to me that he's out of his depth. I doubt we will see a definitive answer to who is more right (or less wrong) anytime soon, but the brilliance of the writing lies in the fact that either may be. Alternatively, neither may be. I'm looking forward to see. 5
Daishi5 Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 I wonder if "path before destination" isn't a kind of trap. Honor is probably a very nice shard, but when Honor would be faced with a choice between an honorable path that probably won't work and a dirty; dishonest; pragmatic path that will work, Honor would probably choose the path that doesn't have a good chance of working. Just because Honor thinks that being honorable is the best way to go doesn't mean that it is. Honor is strongly biased in how he thinks a problem should be approached. A story about how a "good" shard's intent actually harms his own goals could be an interesting twist.
dyring Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) The problem with Taravangian is that he takes for granted that he is the best. What if one of those he kills are truly the one who could save the world? And he is actually breaking things up, making the nations weaker now with his murders. Thats opposit of what he wants. Remember the surebinder who Nohadon talked of? the one who made civil war before the desolation? Perhaps he was like Taravangian. Trying to destroy others so he himself could lead, thinking this would be better. Dalinar on the other hand, well, war isnt always unhonorable. Or even evil. So I dont really see how the journey might simply be to conduct the war in an honorable way. And its not a requirement to be stupid. Its quite ok to use the steps of a ladder when your going up, when its to high to jump straight up. As long as he is moving in the right direction, and he is by unifying them. Edited January 16, 2014 by dyring
Natans he/him Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 Conclusion morality aren't black and white but exist in all shades of grey =) I particullary believe in the idea of doing what is right because is right, and dread all machiavellic filosophys that put results before everything else, because they tend leave to much colateral damage in the path. Dalinar is in a situation where he can't make what he realy want because this would ending making things worse(end the war), but he is trying to make the better of the things that he have at hand in the more moral correctly way he can, even if this make everything more hard to him. Taravigian don't care for any else other the end, and in this he risk everthing for the result potentialy making everything worse. Such as send Szeth to kill one of the few man that are trying to bring back the best hope of humanity against the comming desolation.
Moogle Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) Such as send Szeth to kill one of the few man that are trying to bring back the best hope of humanity against the comming desolation. Not sure I'd say Dalinar's the best hope for humanity. He's the one kicking his own nation into civil war and potentially causing the Desolation through attacking the Parshendi in earnest. He's also killing Parshendi, who could be valuable allies. None of these actions speak terribly well of his ability to fight back against the Voidbringers. Edited January 16, 2014 by Moogle
Bloodfalcon he/him Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 Not sure I'd say Dalinar's the best hope for humanity. He's the one kicking his own nation into civil war and potentially causing the Desolation through attacking the Parshendi in earnest. He's also killing Parshendi, who could be valuable allies. None of these actions speak terribly well of his ability to fight back against the Voidbringers. There are probably a lot of redeeming qualities of the Parshendii, but possible allies don't assassinate your buddies. His knowledge makes him the person who can bring back what is the best hope for humanity.
Moogle Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) There are probably a lot of redeeming qualities of the Parshendii, but possible allies don't assassinate your buddies. His knowledge makes him the person who can bring back what is the best hope for humanity. If we're arguing knowledge is what makes someone the best hope for humanity, I know this guy, his name starts with a T... Edited January 16, 2014 by Moogle
+eveorjoy she/her Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 If we're arguing knowledge is what makes someone the best hope for humanity, I know this guy, his name starts with a T... I understand why you love Mr. T. He is an awesome character. However, why has he never been listed as one of the possible redeemers of humanity? Unless you think Szeth is the redeemer and shall take up the work of Mr. T. I hope Sanderson doesn't disappoint you when he finally shows us what Mr. T is really like, because at this point we know very little.
Moogle Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) I understand why you love Mr. T. He is an awesome character. However, why has he never been listed as one of the possible redeemers of humanity? Mr. T has never been listed as the possible destroyer either. I call it a win. Also, if anyone is going to redeem humanity, it's Kaladin. See: Lirin. Or, I mean, it could be any of them because Sanderson is tricksy. But I am doubtful it's Dalinar. If Dalinar is 'redeeming' humanity, then that is not the kind of redemption I want for people, yeah? And yeah, it's a deontological series, not a consequentialist one. I'm going to be disappointed with Mr. T no matter what happens. I can still dream before WoR comes out, though. Edited January 16, 2014 by Moogle
Swimmingly he/him Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 The problem with Taravangian is that he takes for granted that he is the best. What if one of those he kills are truly the one who could save the world? And he is actually breaking things up, making the nations weaker now with his murders. Thats opposit of what he wants. Remember the surebinder who Nohadon talked of? the one who made civil war before the desolation? Perhaps he was like Taravangian. Trying to destroy others so he himself could lead, thinking this would be better. Dalinar on the other hand, well, war isnt always unhonorable. Or even evil. So I dont really see how the journey might simply be to conduct the war in an honorable way. And its not a requirement to be stupid. Its quite ok to use the steps of a ladder when your going up, when its to high to jump straight up. As long as he is moving in the right direction, and he is by unifying them. I think Mr. T is pretty sure that he, with his Old Magic'd intelligence, is the one who's going to save the world. One thing most supervillains tend to share is a big ego. Otherwise they'd just be villains, wouldn't they?
+eveorjoy she/her Posted January 16, 2014 Posted January 16, 2014 Mr. T has never been listed as one of the destroyers either. True, and I'm beginning to think Dalinar as the Destroyer is a possibility. My point is though he is an important character, he is not a focal character. Szeth hates him at this point, but he may come to like serving him. I guess we will have to see. Considering the way you praise Mr. T it seems as though you would expect him to be the redeemer.
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