Theory: Dalinar Must Die (Spoilers)

[Moogle]

Excellent research. it does prove your point, quite well. However, the epigraph says Everstorm, not Desolation. It depends on your definition of Everstorm. I thought the Everstorm was that wall of dust Dalinar saw in his vision, but I could be wrong.

 

I guess we will have to see how WOR expands on this.

 

That's an interesting possibility. I assumed Everstorm and True Desolation and whatnot were the same thing, based on this from Dalinar:

 

She didn’t question. Teshav was deeply loyal to him, as were most of his officers. They didn’t question why it was so important to him that the ten princedoms regard themselves as one nation. Perhaps they assumed it was because of Gavilar. Indeed, his brother’s dream of a united Alethkar was part of it. There was something else, though.

The Everstorm comes. The True Desolation. The Night of Sorrows.

He suppressed a shiver. The visions certainly didn’t make it sound like he had a great deal of time to prepare.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Moogle

[+eveorjoy she/her]

That's an interesting possibility. I assumed Everstorm and True Desolation and whatnot were the same thing, based on this from Dalinar:

 

 

She didn’t question. Teshav was deeply loyal to him, as were most of his officers. They didn’t question why it was so important to him that the ten princedoms regard themselves as one nation. Perhaps they assumed it was because of Gavilar. Indeed, his brother’s dream of a united Alethkar was part of it. There was something else, though.

The Everstorm comes. The True Desolation. The Night of Sorrows.

He suppressed a shiver. The visions certainly didn’t make it sound like he had a great deal of time to prepare.

 

Could be. I just tend to think storm to mean a storm, but it all could be symbolic. I guess we will have to see.

[MathEpic he/him]

 

Your plan assumes that other leaders would cooperate, and it further assumes that there wouldn't be a mass panic. Humans are irrational at the best of times. That said, I think your plan could be workable. Taravangian didn't use it for some reason, though. If it's because he suffers from major pride, arrogance, and ambition, then he is a villain. It remains to be proven that Taravangian is any of those things, however. I certainly haven't gotten that impression from him.

 

 

Nothing Taravaingain knows is secret except for the secrets he created himself.  Kaladin himself heard the death cry of one of his bridge crew.  If he was not preoccupied with saving bridge four it is quite possible that he would have put two and two together and realized the death cries were not random nonsense.  We are looking at two possible situations:

1. People finally figure out that another Desolation is coming through rumor from the neighboring village.  Their kings and princes have demonstrated no plan to deal with it, and in fact only found out a few days before the common man did.  They don't have answers!  Every man for himself!
2. People are told by a royal envoy that something unusual is happening, but the king has a plan to deal with it.  In the mean time, could you please have the local clerk write down the last thing anyone says before they die and then send it to the city across the hill?  Thank you for the cooperation.

Which of these two circumstances are people more likely to cause panic and irrational behavior?

 

If you asked Taravangain why he does not try the plan I described I am sure he would say "They would not participate." or something like it.  He would probably even believe it.

 

But he doesn't know it wouldn't work either.  Not if he never tried.  I am fairly sure Taravangain never approached Jasnah to set up an information sharing pact with the Alethi.  Since she is a scholar interested in the Last Desolation she probably would have been open to the idea, and she probably could have talked her family (her brother and uncle in particular) into participating.

 

Taravangain certainly sees himself as being exceptional.  If he was only talking about exceptional intelligence he might have had a point.  However, he assumes that he is the only one that has the moral fiber necessary to become a monster in order to save the world.  He seems to believe that he can predict how the rest of the world would react to the knowledge of the crisis, and by a strange coincidence their reaction is exactly the one that justifies his use of unethical means to seize power.  He is more than willing to destroy Roshar's governments in order to replace it with one that, surprise, will be better because he was behind its design.

 

I personally feel confidant saying that Taravangain is motivated by his own pride and arrogance.

[Shardlet he/him]

Excellent research. it does prove your point, quite well. However, the epigraph says Everstorm, not Desolation. It depends on your definition of Everstorm. I thought the Everstorm was that wall of dust Dalinar saw in his vision, but I could be wrong.

 

I guess we will have to see how WOR expands on this.

 

It is my understanding that the Everstorm is the final desolation, number 100, it all comes down to this.  The first and only desolation post-Honor.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

It is my understanding that the Everstorm is the final desolation, number 100, it all comes down to this.  The first and only desolation post-Honor.

 

Okay then so the Desolation should start at the beginning of WOR. I wonder if we will see any of those monsters from Dalinar's visions,

 

It would be nice if Mr. T would talk to Dalinar instead of sending someone to kill him. He might learn some useful information. And if the 1000 days predicted has past by the beginning of WOR then that vision won't be useful anymore.

[Shardlet he/him]

I agree that it would be best to at least attempt to cooperatively gather and share the information.  At the very least, Taravangian and others would have more information to base decisions off of.

[Moogle]

It would be nice if Mr. T would talk to Dalinar instead of sending someone to kill him. He might learn some useful information. And if the 1000 days predicted has past by the beginning of WOR then that vision won't be useful anymore.

 

Why would he do that? He doesn't know Dalinar is having visions, so far as I'm aware. All he knows is that Dalinar is taking his place as Highprince of War.

 

I agree that it would be best to at least attempt to cooperatively gather and share the information.  At the very least, Taravangian and others would have more information to base decisions off of.

 

I agree it might be worth a shot, but the issue is that once you try to talk with people and tell them about your plans with the death whispers, your hand is played. One of Taravangian's main advantages at this point is that no one knows he's behind anything at all. Again, I'm not at all sure why he isn't attempting to do a worldwide prophecy recording contest. I hope his reasons are explained more in WoR.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Why would he do that? He doesn't know Dalinar is having visions, so far as I'm aware. All he knows is that Dalinar is taking his place as Highprince of War.

 

Oh I understand why he wouldn't talk to Dalinar. It is just a shame that he won't.

[Shardlet he/him]

I understand not talking about his plan to unify Roshar under one head (his own).  But, certainly there are other aspects of what he is doing that could be readily openly discussed. 

[Moogle]

I understand not talking about his plan to unify Roshar under one head (his own).  But, certainly there are other aspects of what he is doing that could be readily openly discussed. 

To be clear, you're referring to him trying to crowd-source death prophecy collection? It's a possibility, certainly. I certainly hope there's a reason he didn't do it.

[Swimmingly he/him]

To be clear, you're referring to him trying to crowd-source death prophecy collection? It's a possibility, certainly. I certainly hope there's a reason he didn't do it.

"Wanted: Prophecies whispered with the final breath of loved ones.

Reward: Money! Money! Money!

P.s: Please don't crem dung us, even though we have no way of confirming whether you are or not. I might even be mad enough to assassinate you if your cryptic, vague sentences don't match up properly with the end of the world as we know it. If you are powerful enough that this offer can be considered "Politics", you're already on my list - and he's checking it twice, probably with tears staining that nice white uniform he wears. Right next to all that lack of blood, because he kills you by slicing out your soul. "

 

In addition, I recall that some of the death prophecies mentioned that used "reported" quotes as well, though they were tagged "questionable". He has to make sure that the amount of crem dung in the prophecies doesn't override the data somehow. If he announces that he's looking for things people say as they die, as well, the patient mortality rate of his hospital might begin to look a little suspicious. People might even avoid it on the principle that they don't want to be used as an instrument of blasphemy (Vorinism discourages prophecy and prediction).

[Moogle]

People might even avoid it on the principle that they don't want to be used as an instrument of blasphemy (Vorinism discourages prophecy and prediction).

 

Now this is a nice answer. Can't believe I forgot this one.

[MathEpic he/him]

In addition, I recall that some of the death prophecies mentioned that used "reported" quotes as well, though they were tagged "questionable". He has to make sure that the amount of crem dung in the prophecies doesn't override the data somehow. If he announces that he's looking for things people say as they die, as well, the patient mortality rate of his hospital might begin to look a little suspicious. People might even avoid it on the principle that they don't want to be used as an instrument of blasphemy (Vorinism discourages prophecy and prediction).

 

It's true.  If Taravangain or any of the other kings involved in the project put a bounty on death cries that would set up a perverse incentive to make up death cries.  That is why it is not a good idea to pay for them.  That is part of the reason I suggested Taravangain lend staff to help out.  They could be warned about this and they could work to make sure that kind of thing doen't happen.  The entire project should not be written off just because there is a way the system might fail.

 

Furthermore, the hospital murder plan also has a lot of potential fail points.  First and foremost being: what happens when word leaks out that the hospital is murdering the very sick?  There would almost certainly be a coup.  I don't care how smart the guy is on his good days, he cannot talk down a murderous crowd once they learn the government hospital has been slicing open citizens' veins for no good reason.  Even if Taravangain is able to weather the crisis by finding some convenient scapegoat or another people are going to stop using the hospital when they fall ill.

 

All of a sudden, all the death cries in Kharbranth happen in the homes of the sick and not in earshot of any of the clerks that would pass this information on to Taravangain.

 

Finally, the death cries are not a form of prophesy.  They talk about the past, not the future.  This might be a semantic justification, but I think that the semantics will be strong enough in a land where priests are not allowed to hold property and the king's sister is a publicly acknowledged atheist.

Edited December 30, 2013 by MathEpic

[Beautor he/him]

...

 

It would be nice if Mr. T would talk to Dalinar instead of sending someone to kill him. He might learn some useful information. And if the 1000 days predicted has past by the beginning of WOR then that vision won't be useful anymore.

 

 

Why would he do that? He doesn't know Dalinar is having visions, so far as I'm aware. All he knows is that Dalinar is taking his place as Highprince of War.

 

 

I agree it might be worth a shot, but the issue is that once you try to talk with people and tell them about your plans with the death whispers, your hand is played. One of Taravangian's main advantages at this point is that no one knows he's behind anything at all. Again, I'm not at all sure why he isn't attempting to do a worldwide prophecy recording contest. I hope his reasons are explained more in WoR.

 

I disagree that Taravangian doesn't know that Dalinar is having visions of some sort, or at least that something special or weird happens to Dalinar during highstorms. It's common knowledge among the Alethi warcamps that he has episodes where he raves in an unknown language or giberish, and has sprouted all kinds of rumours. Many people have suggested that Taravangian would likely have spies in the warcamps, and this is why he suddenly changes his mind and orders Szeth to murder Dalinar. From what I can see on the forum the most common belief is that Taravangian has found out that Dalinar is going to become the Highprince of War. I highly doubt that the spies would have failed to investigate and pass along any information regarding the weird behaviour of someone in whom Taravangian appears to have an interest. From the epigraphs we know that Taravangian is aware of at least one other individual who claimed to see visions or weird dreams during the highstorms.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Beautor

[Shardlet he/him]

I think Taravangian's change of plans is due to his efforts to unite the highprinces in more than just name. Taravangian gives Szeth the Dalinar-instructions in the intervening scene between Dalinar giving up his blade and Dalinar speaking to Kaladin, which both happen in the same day that Dalinar slaps some sense into Elhokar.  Since the chapters are chronological, it should be recognized that the Taravangian and Szeth scene is at least concurrent, if not intervening, with one or more of these scenes.  That being the case, I doubt that Taravangian would have received any info on Dalinar becoming Highprince of War in that time.  (Though, it seems that such an event would not change Taravangian's mind).  It seems to me that Taravangian's mind won't change about Dalinar until he finds out that Dalinar is getting some info that is important to Taravangian's plans.

[name_here]

I expect the main reason he hasn't made his interest in the death quotes public and asked for help is that he'd need to explain why he was so interested. The other problems could be managed, but he'd need a convincing explanation of why he's doing it to get any solid help. That could attract unwanted attention, and it would also make other kings inclined to collect them and learn too much. He's not terribly powerful, so his only real hope of uniting Roshar is to avoid attracting attention until the final step of the plan is ready.

[Kier he/him]

I don't see how anyone can say that Dalinar is Stupid, unable, incapapble, or bringing about the distruction of Roshar. I mean warrented yeah he misunderstood the visions and it almost got him killed. But really, thats a far cry from destorying a whole planet of Humankind.

 

And Mr. T being a better leader? No. I'm sorry, but no. A man driven by his own ambition to take control of the whole world, even for their "greater good" is not a good leader.

[dyring]

I see simularities between Mr T and Pedron Niall from tWoT for those(the majority here?) who´s read it. 

 

Pedron was Brilliant, and absolutely believed he would be the one to save humanity by destroying all power structures too .

[marianmi]

dyring - completely agree with you.

Mt. T is so much like Pedron Niall.

He's smart, and can unite all humankind. But, he's got big flaws. He relies too much on his brilliance He's got a plan, and he's following it.

And because of his brilliance, he cannot accept some things. Like PN could not accept the Forsaken were real for example.

 

Dalinar on the other hand, does not have a plan. He's much more dynamic in choices - he can take a decision even if it contradicts everything he used to believe, or a decision he has taken earlier. Dalinar is the one trying to UNDERSTAND what's going on, and will end up with a larger picture than Mr. T.

[Moogle]

And because of his brilliance, he cannot accept some things. Like PN could not accept the Forsaken were real for example.

 

What can't he accept?

[marianmi]

What can't he accept?

 

Guess we'll have to wait and see

[TwistedMisting she/her]

I for one think that the war is not justified. The Alethi didn't even ask the Parshendi why they killed Gavilar.

 

 

Dalinar even admits they don't know if it was rebels! The Alethi started a war, killing thousands of their own people and thousands of potentially innocent Parshendi without the slightest bit of rational thought. They wanted revenge, and thousands are dead because of it.

 

If there's one thing that's been hammered over and over throughout the books, it is that the Alethi are irrationally aggressive. We see Kaladin's army having border skirmishes with other highprinces' armies! People that are supposed to be united.

 

And the fact is, diplomacy might very well have worked. But it was not an option, because Dalinar and Elhokar were too busy being hungry for revenge. Dalinar is still trying to win the war against the Parshendi, change of tactics or not. He's going to get more soldiers killed, more Parshendi killed.

 

Taravangian, for all of his flaws, has not started any wars as of yet.

 

Dalinar is a warlord, pure and simple. I do not think my words were overly harsh at all. The Alethi are very clearly being influenced by Odium.

 

I dislike war.

 

 

You're forgetting the fact that Dalinar actually wanted to take the Alethi forces back to Alethkar and end the war, talk and figure out why the Parshendi killed Gavilar. The only reason he's decided to try and win the war, is because he knows he can't talk the other highprinces or his nephew into abandoning the war. If he can't abandon it, he decides to decisively end it. His hands are tied at the moment, so he's trying to stop the endless bloodletting and get a decisive victory. Looked at in this way, you can see that though lives will still be lost, it would be less than if the war just dragged on with the endless skirmishes, with the antagonists locked in stalemate.

[Moogle]

You're forgetting the fact that Dalinar actually wanted to take the Alethi forces back to Alethkar and end the war, talk and figure out why the Parshendi killed Gavilar. The only reason he's decided to try and win the war, is because he knows he can't talk the other highprinces or his nephew into abandoning the war. If he can't abandon it, he decides to decisively end it. His hands are tied at the moment, so he's trying to stop the endless bloodletting and get a decisive victory. Looked at in this way, you can see that though lives will still be lost, it would be less than if the war just dragged on with the endless skirmishes, with the antagonists locked in stalemate.

 

'His hands are tied'. He can't stop the war, therefore, he should end it by committing genocide 'decisively'? More lives will only be lost through dragging it out if the war lasts for a generation, and new soldiers are born and fight and are killed. The war hasn't lasted that long.

 

I'm afraid that we have different outlooks on this. I think there's plenty Dalinar could do if his true motivations were to end the killing. He could smuggle the Parshendi out, disguised as parshmen, if he felt strongly about saving their lives. Dalinar doesn't care about the Parshendi, he doesn't care if people die (or, well, not enough to do anything about it), he cares about making Alethkar into a unified nation. It's hard to not get that impression from him.

 

He may not enjoy war, he may think diplomacy could have been attempted more, but he sure is stepping up his war efforts in an effort to unify the highprinces, and the Parshendi provide a convenient target for him to attempt to unify the highprinces through.

 

Kaladin is the one who doesn't want to kill Parshendi, not Dalinar. I'm doing a reread now and I'm really appreciating how he seems to be the only sane one in a land of people enjoying the Thrill.

 

I honestly don't think my characterization of Dalinar (in this post) is false. If you disagree, please please please argue otherwise with quotes. I'd like to think of Dalinar in a more positive light (like most on these fora), and my view of him has changed before. I don't enjoy disliking characters.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Moogle

[Swimmingly he/him]

dyring - completely agree with you.

Mt. T is so much like Pedron Niall.

He's smart, and can unite all humankind. But, he's got big flaws. He relies too much on his brilliance He's got a plan, and he's following it.

And because of his brilliance, he cannot accept some things. Like PN could not accept the Forsaken were real for example.

Dalinar on the other hand, does not have a plan. He's much more dynamic in choices - he can take a decision even if it contradicts everything he used to believe, or a decision he has taken earlier. Dalinar is the one trying to UNDERSTAND what's going on, and will end up with a larger picture than Mr. T.

Relying on your brilliance is a little misguided when it fluctuates daily.

[TwistedMisting she/her]

Actually, Dalinar is beginning to be sickened by the killing. He has episodes where the Thrill fades and is replaced by revulsion at the death around him. No, he's not as honourable as Kaladin in that respect, but bear in mind that Dalinar was a warmonger for most of his life, whereas Kaladin was raised to respect life.

 

Also, a conclusive victory does not necessarily have to mean genocide. Just give them a thumping till they surrender or run away. (I'm not saying that's definitely what Dalinar would do, but it is a possibility.)

 

I would agree though, he doesn't want to end the war out of compassion, but because it threatens Alethkar's stability as a nation.

 

a couple of other points

1) Dalinar isn't really that smart, he's not full of good ideas. He's what I'd refer to as 'steady' he plods along, he doesn't have flashes of brilliance 

2) He isn't good at breaking out of his 'soldier' mould. He's trying, but not doing very well at it. He's not good at thinking in new and different ways, he's coming up with the only solution he can think of, end the war by winning it.

Edited January 15, 2014 by TwistedMisting