Theory: Dalinar Must Die (Spoilers)

[Moogle]

Considering the way you praise Mr. T it seems as though you would expect him to be the redeemer.

 

I expect him to be the savior of humanity (with low probability), but I do not expect him to 'redeem' humanity. That job belongs to whoever reforms the KR's and promotes honor all over Roshar. Redeeming humanity really has no bearing on whether or not all of humanity is killed off by Voidbringers.

 

I'm also loathe to be seen as 'praising' or 'loving' Mr. T. Say rather that I see him as a viable candidate for Savior of Roshar and that I favor him over Dalinar in that particular contest. We'll see how things go for him in WoR before I make any final decisions.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Moogle

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

The only way Dalinar is the destroyer is if he experiences a scene similar to "push red button -> die -> world in jeopardy"

The fact that he is trying to save the world tells you that. Unless the entire story is a lie, and the plot twist at the end is that literally everybody Dalinar talks to was misled by Odium or something, then he is going to be trying to do the right thing and won't be any more responsible for chaos than those around him. It's not him. That book would be weeeeeeak.

It doesn't have to be Mr. T, but it's not Dalinar.

[Moogle]

The only way Dalinar is the destroyer is if he experiences a scene similar to "push red button -> die -> world in jeopardy"

 

Or, say, he ramped up a war effort and forced the enemy, who were really not that bad of people (beyond an assassination here and there when they see their society in mortal peril), into making a desperate move that kicks off the Desolation. I'd call him a 'destroyer' in that case.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

I expect him to be the savior of humanity (with low probability), but I do not expect him to 'redeem' humanity. That job belongs to whoever reforms the KR's and promotes honor all over Roshar. Redeeming humanity really has no bearing on whether or not all of humanity is killed off by Voidbringers.

 

I'm also loathe to be seen as 'praising' or 'loving' Mr. T. We'll see how things go for him in WoR before I make any final decisions.

 

What's wrong with loving or praising a character? And if you making statements like "If we're arguing knowledge is what makes someone the best hope for humanity, I know this guy, his name starts with a T..." it could appear as though you are praising that character.

 

However, I agree that we shouldn't make any final decisions on any of the characters until all the story is told.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Or, say, he ramped up a war effort and forced the enemy, who were really not that bad of people (beyond an assassination here and there when they see their society in mortal peril), into making a desperate move that kicks off the Desolation. I'd call him a 'destroyer' in that case.

 

Actually, this is a very likely scenario based on what has been release so far.

 

Edit: Sorry about the double post. Is there a way to delete posts?

Edited January 16, 2014 by eveorjoy

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Or, say, he ramped up a war effort and forced the enemy, who were really not that bad of people (beyond an assassination here and there when they see their society in mortal peril), into making a desperate move that kicks off the Desolation. I'd call him a 'destroyer' in that case.

Well there you go defeating yourself a bit, Moooog. Dalinar doesn't get any slack for his contextual pressures, but the Parshendii are going to bring back the Voidbringers and it's because they are under pressure from Dalinar? Haha, I think the Parshendii are monsters for unleashing that hell on the world because they are going to be slaughtered. They could still make the decision not to, you know??

[Moogle]

Well there you go defeating yourself a bit, Moooog. Dalinar doesn't get any slack for his contextual pressures, but the Parshendii are going to bring back the Voidbringers and it's because they are under pressure from Dalinar? Haha, I think the Parshendii are monsters for unleashing that hell on the world because they are going to be slaughtered. They could still make the decision not to, you know??

 

The answer is simple: I blame both Dalinar and the Parshendi in that case. Just like I blame both the Alethi and the Parshendi for the war.

 

Dalinar is still the destroyer in my scenario!

 

I could also write a small essay going into why the Parshendi would be more justified than the Alethi (given that the survival of their race depends on it vs. the Alethi's need for vengeance) but I'll just leave it at that. I'm not exactly supporting the decision of the Parshendi to turn into Voidbringers (if that's what they do).

Edited January 16, 2014 by Moogle

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

The answer is simple: I blame both Dalinar and the Parshendi in that case. Just like I blame both the Alethi and the Parshendi for the war.

 

I could also write a small essay going into why the Parshendi would be more justified than the Alethi (given that the survival of their race depends on it vs. the Alethi's need for vengeance) but I'll just leave it at that.

But you were blaming Dalinar's character, not the Alethi. Dalinar was put in a pinch where he either goes ahead with the war, in whatever manner, or he gets assassinated/goes to war with the other Highprinces and the war STILL goes on. There was death in both scenarios. The Alethi are different from Dalinar, however, and it was his character that was under the scrutiny. 

[dyring]

Mr T(And I do pity the fool) is starting in the wrong end. he seems to be trying to kill of any viable leaders so he is the only option, somehow, and that never works. If you are way down on the list and picked cause everyone higher is gone, then its only a short matter of time before someone else comes along thats higher, and all the mess starts again. You never get unity that way, you get constant civilwar(throu intrigue or fighting). That does not make for a strong defence.

 

Also, as of we have seen no inkling that he have a plan on how to take over elsewhere. Hes just breaking everything else down into small bits and hoping for the best it seems

[Moogle]

But you were blaming Dalinar's character, not the Alethi. Dalinar was put in a pinch where he either goes ahead with the war, in whatever manner, or he gets assassinated/goes to war with the other Highprinces and the war STILL goes on. There was death in both scenarios. The Alethi are different from Dalinar, however, and it was his character that was under the scrutiny. 

 

I admit to being a bit confused. Are you talking about me criticizing Dalinar's choice to go to war against the Parshendi? If you could rephrase your post, I'd appreciate it. Sorry for being bad at understanding.

 

I've argued that Dalinar has options other than war (like smuggling Parshendi out disguised as parshmen; Parshendi spies literally do this, it can't be that hard) and that the option of continuing the competition for gemhearts results in less death than mass genocide. Not sure if that's what you're speaking of, though.

 

Edit: Oh, I think you were taking issue with me talking about the Parshendi vs. Alethi in the context of the Parshendi being more justified. Uh. The Alethi started the war (and Dalinar continued it so he could unify Alethkar by causing civil war) out of a need for vengeance. The Parshendi might be forced into becoming Voidbringers because their survival as a race is at stake. I think the Parshendi are more justified in this scenario.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Moogle

[dyring]

Or, the parshendi could come forward with why they assasinated Gavilar, and make terms. That would give Dalinar an option to end the war in return for a number of gemhearts or something.

 

I mean, instead of the whole apokalypse thing...

since they have refused to talk at all ever since Gavilars death. And if they refuse to even talk, its not that wierd that the war wont end....

 

"alright. We will die, unless we release the voidbringers so the whole world is at risk. We just cant let all of us die, our whole race, we gotto risk the voidbringers"

 

-"But eshonai, what about just, trying to talk to the Alethi? a new deal and explain?"

 

- "Talk to them? don´t be silly. That would make us look stupid. Now, death or risking the world? wich is it? What? they sent a new messenger ? just kill him and lets get back to deciding"

Edited January 16, 2014 by dyring

[Moogle]

since they have refused to talk at all ever since Gavilars death. And if they refuse to even talk, its not that wierd that the war wont end....

 

That might have something to do with the Alethi not trying any diplomacy. It's entirely possible the Alethi killed off any ambassadors sent to try diplomacy, as well. But yes, the Parshendi have not exactly acted as well as they could have either. This exonerates neither Dalinar nor the Alethi as a whole.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Moogle

[dyring]

Moogle, Dalinar mentions at one point in the book that the alethi sent messengers many times trying to find out why etc, but that the Parshendi refused any contact.

(dont have my book, cant give you pagenr)

 

And its not like it would be hard for the Parshendi to capture a few officers in a few of the plateuruns if that was a prob.

Edited January 16, 2014 by dyring

[Moogle]

If by 'many times' you mean 'sent messengers one time after the Alethi sent an entire squadron of cavalry at them' then yeah. They did do a token attempt at diplomacy, I will admit. Still doesn't mean they had to go to war.

 

Edit: Actually, it might have been more than one time. I forget the exact quote. Something about Elhokar sending a messenger(s?) which could be interpreted either way. As I've said, the Parshendi are hardly blameless.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Moogle

[dyring]

tbh, someone making a deal with you, then kill your king while you celebrate, and then refuse to talk to you. I would say they kinda had to go to war.

[Moogle]

tbh, someone making a deal with you, then kill your king while you celebrate, and then refuse to talk to you. I would say they kinda had to go to war.

 

This is where we disagree. If someone hits you, you don't have to hit them back.

[dyring]

In a world where police does not exist you do if you have the strength, or else those who go around hitting people rules. Cause most they hit will be to weak to hit back, and if you who have the strength do not act, then your partly responsible for the weak being abused.

 

"I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" 

 

Perhaps not the right order, but irrelevant for this argument.

Edited January 16, 2014 by dyring

[Moogle]

In a world where police does not exist you do if you have the strength, or else those who go around hitting people rules. Cause most they hit will be to weak to hit back, and if you who have the strength do not act, then your partly responsible for the weak being abused.

 

I'm not sure I'd call the Alethi killing thousands of Parshendi who didn't decide to kill Gavilar 'protecting those who cannot protect themselves'. To each their own, though. We seem to disagree pretty fundamentally on something we can't really debate because it's rooted in emotions.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Moogle

[+eveorjoy she/her]

I find it odd so many want to defend the Alethi's choice to go to war. It makes sense why they did so, but that does not mean it was the right thing to do. Several passages in "The Way of Kings" suggest the war is foolish. I think Kaladin would agree with many of Moogle's arguments.

[Cromptj he/him]

But after the initial heat of the moment, the war is basically an economic venture. And using modern concepts of morality to decide whether an alien civilisation whose religion is based around the fact that war is the highest calling is misguided. By their standards, and pretty much any society's, even in the present day, assassinating a head of state hours after they signed a treaty with you would be a justifiable reason to go to war. With all the collateral damage Szeth caused it was basically an act of war.

I completely agree with the Alethi's choice to go to war, what I think was wrong was their objective of the war, which seems to mainly be kill Parshendi, get rich and pretend to still be angry that they killed the king who beat us all in battle until we were forced to join his nation.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

The war is a human reaction, but that doesn't justify it.

 

Kaladin summed up the war well this way.

 

 

Hundred's died each week,winning gems for men who were already rich, winning vengeance for a king long dead.

 

I don't think the KR would fight this war.

[dyring]

ah, but that is another matter.

 

Fighting the war is, franky, justified in my mind.

 

Fighting the war in they way its been fought, is not, thats a waste of life. But that is what Dalinar is moving to change, step by step.

Edited January 17, 2014 by dyring

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Something just seems wrong that the death of one man is justification to slaughter thousands on both sides. The Parshendi should have explained themselves, but vengeance isn't a logical reason to do anything. They when to war for vengeance because the Parshendi had insulted them not because they thought the Parshendi was a real threat. They went to war for the same reason Sadeas would have hunted down the bridgemen if they had escaped, to save face. If the Parshendi were more of the threat to the Alethi I think the war would be more acceptable, but these people are not threat as a whole. They when to war to save face and to steal the Parshendi lands..

 

As I read over TWoKs again, more and more every character who wants to embody the ideals of the KR is coming to see the War, even in it's start as ridiculous. If Dalinar were the same man he is at the end of TWoKs, I don't think he would have sought vengeance this way. In chapter 58 Dalinar had several really good ideas that would not have cost so many lives. If Jah Kaved had killed the king, war would have made far more since, because Jah Kaved may have been a threat to all of Alethkar, but the Parshendi were nothing.

 

That's my problem with them going to war. Now could Dalinar and Eloikar been able to seek vengeance without war? No, the other Highprinces would have demanded it, but that doesn't justify it.

[dyring]

They had only just met the Parshendi. They know nothing of their capabilities, but they believed the were hiding shards(due to parshendi seeming to start summoning blades but stopping). Wich they were correct about.  

 

How would they know their not a threat compared to Jah Keved? For all they know, killing the king was to stop him unifying Alethi so the parshendi could invade later(no, I don´t think so, but the alethi had no way to know)

If they have access to the assasin in white, whats to say they wont just assassinate one highprince/king after another? If they kill a king for no other reason then to show they can (from alethi pov since they said nothing), whos to say they wont burn down a city next time, before running away hiding on the shattered plains again?

 

Simply put, not acting would invite more attacks. Almost all the blame for the situation lies on the Parshendi in this. If they cannot even bother to explain themselves. If they werent believed, fine, but then theyv atleast tried, and the Alethi might then share the blame.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

The Alethi didn't explore other options. They just went right to kill them all and take their land. The whole principle behind the war is wrong. The Vengeance Pact wasn't about protecting Alethkar from a possible threat of uncultured savages wielding shardblades. It was about saving face. They could have dealt with the possible threat other ways.
 
Chap 58 TWoKs:

"I would leave," Dalinar said, "But not because I wish to flee or because I fear battle. I fear for Alethkar's stability; leaving this war would help secure our homeland and the loyalty of the highprinces. I would send more envoys and scholars to find out why the Parshendi killed Gavilar.  We gave up on that too easily. I still wonder if the assassination was imitated by miscreants or rebels among their own people." 

"I'd discover what their culture is--and yes, they do have one. If rebels weren't the cause of the assassination, I'd keep asking until I learned why they did it. I'd demand repayment--prehaps their own king, delivered to us for execution in turn--in exchange for granting peace..." 

 

They didn't need to go to war right away. There were other options, but they were so mad they ignored them. If someone from Canada killed the President of the United States, would the U.S. be justified in nuking Canada?

 

The Parshendi handled the situation badly, as far as we know. Maybe they didn't believe an explanation was possible. That does not justify the Alethi going to war.