Theory: Dalinar Must Die (Spoilers)

[TheShogun]

Oh look: my first theory.

I'm not even sure I believe this, it's just a possibility, which seems slightly less likely the alternative.

 

Anyway here it is:

 

On the back cover of TWoK, it says something along the lines of "One of them may redeem us, one may destroy us," (probably not exactly that, I don't have the book on me) from a list of Dalinar, Szeth, Shallan, or Kaladin. It's probably not Kaladin or Shallan, seeing as the same passage talks about how "I believe Surgebinding and Soulcasting can return," (again, probably not exactly that) and Shallan and Kaladin are doing those.

 

So Szeth or Dalinar. Szeth it would be easy to make the case for, because he's going around and killing everyone etc.

 

However, the thing about Dalinar is that he's misinterpreting (we assume) the visions he's getting (from Honor, we assume [know?]), as meaning that he should unite Alethkar, and not the Shards against Odium. 

And our friend Taravangian says, quite directly, that Dalinar "must not unite the Highprinces."

 

And I'm inclined to think that Taravangian is more trustworthy here than Dalinar, because Dalinar is from the super-warlike Alethi culture, whereas Taravangian is apparently very good at keeping Kharbaranth at peace and also has none of Odium's Shardblades or Plates. 

 

 

So. That's it. What do you think?

[Colby Jack]

I think Kaladin will be the big bad of the Stormlight Archive.

[hoser]

Oh look: my first theory.

 

However, the thing about Dalinar is that he's misinterpreting (we assume) the visions he's getting (from Honor, we assume [know?]), as meaning that he should unite Alethkar, and not the Shards against Odium. 

And our friend Taravangian says, quite directly, that Dalinar "must not unite the Highprinces."

And your second upvote (assuming no downvotes)!

 

I believe Mr. T. is saying that because he wants to unite the world under his leadership and a united, effectively led Alethkar will get in the way of his ambitions.  I don't know that he is operating from some omniscient knowledge of what needs to be done for ther good of the world.  

 

Given that Mr. T's modus operandi is to deprive the world of all effective leadership (brutally and increasing collateral damage, where possible) and consolidate power in the hands of an ancient, occasionally-feebleminded serial murderer with uncertain succession prospects, I really doubt the scope of his judgements.

[Moogle]

And I'm inclined to think that Taravangian is more trustworthy here than Dalinar, because Dalinar is from the super-warlike Alethi culture, whereas Taravangian is apparently very good at keeping Kharbaranth at peace and also has none of Odium's Shardblades or Plates. 

 

 

So. That's it. What do you think?

 

I agree completely with this, but I disagree on Dalinar being the one to destroy everyone. I'm tentatively guessing it's going to be Shallan who destroys everyone. That's a topic for another thread, though.

 

Taravangian definitely strikes me as the better choice for world leader between Dalinar and him. As you say, at least he's managed to keep Kharbranth peaceful, and there's the matter of his healthcare for everyone.

[Grimm]

On the back cover of TWoK, it says something along the lines of "One of them may redeem us, one may destroy us," 

 

The fact it says "may" gives us a huge amount of ambiguity; it could be that a character comes near to destroying everything but instead turns it around to save everyone. That could mean it could be anyone. 

In response to Dalinar being more dangerous; yes and no. Yes for a different reason from being Alethi; Dalinar is our prophet so far in the series, and the one with the most influence to bring about change. Essentially he's going to make the Alethi less Alethi by making them follow the Codes. This will probably result in WoR with a bunch of new Knight Radiants. The flow on effect here is that Dalinar is a massive Catalyst in bringing back the order of the Radiants. The problem with this is that (I think) the more KR that start to appear, the more bonding between spren and man and all other KR related activity; the closer we get to a desloation (the FINAL desolation? ). In Just's interlude; the supposed Nalan mentioned that by killing surgebinders he was keeping away the desolation; so that's where I get the idea for this theory from. 

 

So yes; Dalinar could be destroying us by bringing about the last desolation. However, he could also be saving us as it gives the opportunity to fight back against Odium and perhaps stop Desolations forever, horah!

[Cracknut]

Taravangian definitely strikes me as the better choice for world leader between Dalinar and him. As you say, at least he's managed to keep Kharbranth peaceful, and there's the matter of his healthcare for everyone.

Dalinar has a bloody warlord past but seriously how is Taravangian better choice? He would be Rosharian TLR except with less immortality(most likely) and I don't see him trying to save Roshar the way TLR was trying. Not to mention that he, as far as we know, doesn't have same knowledge as TLR and by his actions so far he's most likely controlled/mistaken/used by Odium. I mean, whats with killing leaders all over the world and thus disrupting even that little bit of unity and control that Rosharians had. Dalinar at least follows the codes and codes were written for Knights Radiant who were good guys and they didn't lose because of those codes, they lost because their leaders failed to keep living with those codes. So as long as Dalinar follows codes, we're all good.

I also think that Shallan will be the one to destroy w/e. But Kaladin is a possibility too, he's honorable, but he hasn't forgotten his grudges yet either.

Edited December 25, 2013 by 213

[Crisapx]

Not to mention that the healthcare it's just a ploy, to collect people that are dying so he can record what they say seconds before they die, maybe even making some of the sick die faster, so that he can have a bigger sample.

 

He's doing things for the wrong way for the right reason, at least you would see it that way, if you follow the code.

So I don't thing Taravangian will be the hero of the series, at least in the beggining, there is always a chace that he'd mend his ways. He strikes more as the anti-hero type...

[Moogle]

He would be Rosharian TLR except with less immortality(most likely) and I don't see him trying to save Roshar the way TLR was trying.

 

Except for the part where he didn't set up a system of slavery where his trusted friends could beat the people he didn't like to death, kept Kharbranth peaceful in a world of war, had free healthcare for all, and literally has said he was trying to save Roshar from the Desolation? Taravangian killed a few warlords. TLR screwed over an entire planet's ecosystem. It's an insult to Taravangian to compare him to TLR at this point. TLR was heavily influenced by Ruin and the worst aspects of Preservation. Taravangian might be influenced by Odium. TLR was certifiably insane.

 

 

Not to mention that he, as far as we know, doesn't have same knowledge as TLR and by he's actions so far he's most likely controlled/mistaken/used by Odium. I mean, whats with killing leaders all over the world and thus disrupting even that little bit of unity and control that Rosharians had. Dalinar at least follows the codes and codes were written for Knights Radiant who were good guys and they didn't lose because of those codes, they lost because their leaders failed to keep living with those codes. So as long as Dalinar follows codes, we're all good.

 

The idea is that there will be more unity after Taravangian starts conquering people. Heck, he probably won't even have to do that. The common people will probably want to join him. We don't know Taravangian's game plan, but I doubt he intends to leave the world off how it is. With all the corrupt leaders who seem to have wars just because (see: Kaladin's border skirmishes), I can see why diplomacy might have failed for Taravangian.

 

Dalinar, following the codes and visions, led his men into a trap. Over 3/4 of them died. He's just not smart enough. I don't want to insult Dalinar, but he's... average, at best. Taravangian at least has the odd day where he's insanely smart. The Radiants gave up their Shards to common men, letting them go on murder sprees. The codes bit seems overrated, though I'd agree they are a step up from the current way of life for the Alethi.

 

Not to mention that the healthcare it's just a ploy, to collect people that are dying so he can record what they say seconds before they die, maybe even making some of the sick die faster, so that he can have a bigger sample.

 

It's not a ploy. Taravangian had his hospitals set up ever before the death whispers even started. (The death whispers started when Gavilar did his thing about 5 years before the end of TWOK.) Taravangian heals >95% of the people who walk into his hospital's doors. He has to, for appearances if nothing else. And honestly, he seemed genuine when he talked about how Kharbranth's library helped heal the sick.

 

If tons of people started disappearing, then people wouldn't go to his hospitals. He takes the people who are dying anyways, and some poor people off the streets. Even if it's a ploy, he's still doing a great public service by healing as many people as he is. More than Dalinar can say.

[+eveorjoy]

What is with all the Dalinar hate?

 

Anyway, I don't think any of the four mentioned, including Dalinar, are likely to save or destroy Roshar at this point. We have only read book one of five from one arc, that will eventually be two arcs with ten books total. The only character who I doubt will be the destroy Roshar is Kaladin, because of his internal questions on WOK and also from what I samples I have read of him in WOR. He would need to go through changes that would completely destroy his character journey in WOK for him to become the one who will destroy.

 

Dalinar could be the destroyer, but not because he is stupid. He trusted Sadeas because he misunderstood the visions, and didn't you as well the first time you read them. Dalinar's mistake is completely understandable. And for all we know Taravangian maybe making a similar mistake as well. Being a genius does not make incapable of making mistakes, in fact it often makes you able to make even bigger ones.

 

I don't think Taravangian is completely evil. However, he's not the hero of Roshar either. Anyone who will kill the innocent for the greater good should not be in power.

 

Some will say, but killing people is the only way he can learn what he needs to save Roshar. Baloney. He could leave the dying in their own rooms and get about as much information. Much of the time the samples are worthless. It's easy to say that there was nothing else he could do when you aren't the one being killed for the greater good. Yes he knows he is doing wrong for the greater good. That doesn't make it right. What if he saves the world, but then there is a shortage of food and too many survivors? What if he decides he must kill twenty thousand so the rest can eat? He would do it. It would be no different that taking people off the streets and opening their veins until they die, just so you might get a few sentences of confused prophecy.

 

I think Taravangan isn't a good ruler. He has kept Kharbranth free, but it is not peaceful. You think Jasnah would have needed to be play vigilanty if the city of bells was peaceful? He decided he needed to be hero of the world and so went to the Nightwatcher which resulted in him being an idiot half of the time. Whoever is running Kharbranth when he is incapable, isn't doing a very good job. I honestly think he would let Kharbranth burn if he felt it was for the greater good. Still, I agree that we need to see more on him before passing final judgement. But killing people just because you think their life is worthless is hard to place in a good light. Their life was not worthless to them and no person has the right to judge whose life is worthless, I don't care how smart they are.

 

Leading people who choose to fight and die, even to a foolish death, is better than killing people against their will. Yes, Dalinar made a big mistake, but everyone one of his men chose to be there knowing the risks. They didn't curse Dalinar for his mistake and when Dalinar went missing they stayed until his fate was known.

 

Where as those being killed for the greater good by Taravangian.

 

"I wish to sleep. I know now why you do what you do and I hate you for it. I will not speak of the truths I see." -- Kakashah 1173, 142 seconds pre-death. A Shin sailor, left behind by his crew, reportedly for bringing them ill luck. Sample largely useless.

 

I think On my second read through this was the quote that struck me the hardest. I think I would do what the Shin sailor did as I died, if I realized they were doing this to me. How could you want a person who kills people like this in power? That's an awful leader.

 

Ultimately, even if Dalinar is the one who will destroy Roshar, killing him won't save Roshar. I don't see how it could. 

Edited December 26, 2013 by eveorjoy

[Moash]

I feel like Shallan and Dalinar have the greatest chances of being one of the two (Redeemer or Destroyer). Kaladin being the destroyer could be one final failure for him which would be awful, something GRRM would do maybe. He could redeem but that seems a little cliche I guess because right now he seems like a real good guy so that's why it would be cliche. Szeth, for him to destroy Roshar would be cliche because he has been destroying lots lately and is on his way to becoming a villain (although I expect later redemption from him). For him to just do that destruction as well would be too obvious I think. Brandon wouldn't do cliche or obvious things so unless kaladin destroys or szeth redeems, I think it has to be Shallan or Dalinar (I like the theory of Dalinar being misled leading to unintended destruction). I think that Dalinars death chances in book two are 55% with a 45% survival chance with his death slightly more likely but still easily able to be the other way around. He would die because it would make his goals of uniting the Alethi much more difficult, cause Adolin to step up and become a larger character and it would be a real game changer. Highprince of War book 5 Dalinars book, Brandon did say that just because a character had a pov book later on that would not mean that they would live until that book. He could be proving that with Dalinar Kholin in book 2. I do believe that Dalinar will die in this series at some point and book 2 could be that book where he goes out. While I feel that his chances of dying are a bit higher than his survival chances I do think he will live for having more storyline. Sanderson could just cut his storyline abruptly like Martin did to Ned Stark. Like I said this would also make Adolin have a bigger role because he feels like filler right now and is boring, undeveloped and maybe a slight bit arrogant. So I do think Dalinar will live but his death could come just as easily and I don't believe he will go to the end d the series, 9 books is a long ways to go and Roshar will likely get more dangerous with each book. Of course anyone could die before the end because I'm not just singling out Dalinar here.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Moash

[Moogle]

Dalinar could be the destroyer, but not because he is stupid. He trusted Sadeas because he misunderstood the visions, and didn't you as well the first time you read them. Dalinar's mistake is completely understandable. And for all we know Taravangian maybe making a similar mistake as well. Being a genius does not make incapable of making mistakes, in fact it often makes you able to make even bigger ones.

 

Dalinar's mistake was understandable, but it is not one Taravangian would have made. While I don't disagree that Taravangian might be making a huge mistake, I would argue that being a genius means you are going to make less mistakes on average. That's one definiton of what intelligence is: the ability to accomplish your desires in a variety of environments.

 

 

I don't think Taravangian is completely evil. However, he's not the hero of Roshar either. Anyone who will kill the innocent for the greater good should not be in power.

 

Why? You seem to be making an emotional judgement here. If Taravangian's murder of a few thousand terminally ill people leads to people surviving the Desolation vs Taravangian doing nothing and the Desolation wiping out of all of humanity, I think the choice is pretty clear. Perhaps you don't see more lives being saved as a good thing? Or perhaps you think there's no way Taravangian will accomplish his goals?

 

 

 

Some will say, but killing people is the only way he can learn what he needs to save Roshar. Baloney. He could leave the dying in their own rooms and get about as much information. Much of the time the samples are worthless. It's easy to say that there was nothing else he could do when you aren't the one being killed for the greater good.

 

He could hardly leave the dying in their own rooms and get the same information. They'd have to have a nurse watching over every terminally ill patient 24/7 in order to get their death cries. There's too many patients, not enough nurses.

 

Your argument is that the people don't like being murdered, so Taravangian shouldn't do what he's doing. Sure, okay, I'd prefer if people didn't have to die... but the Radiants are gone. The Heralds have given up their Blades. The next Desolation (which is less than 1000 days away if I recall) is coming. Do you really think anybody is going to survive the Desolation as it currently stands? With prepared nations filled with Surgebinders and Heralds, 9/10 people died. With barely any Surgebinders and no Heralds... things are bad. Really bad.

 

Hypothetical situation:

• If you do nothing, everybody in the world dies.
• If you kill some terminally ill people (ie. those who are dying anyways), there is a chance everybody dies, but there's also a chance you save everyone.

If you're not going to pick option 2, then I think we ultimately care about different things. I care about humanity. I want people to live and be happy. Those who pick option 1 seem to prefer that humans don't do certain 'wrong' things because the things make them sad/angry/disgusted, even though people will die because of it.

 

 

Yes he knows he is doing wrong for the greater good. That doesn't make it right. What if he saves the world, but then there is a shortage of food and too many survivors? What if he decides he must kill twenty thousand so the rest can eat? He would do it. It would be no different that taking people off the streets and opening their veins until they die, just so you might get a few sentences of confused prophecy.

 

Are you arguing that everybody should starve and die, rather than just a few people die so everyone else can live? Again, I am curious as to your answer to the question above. I get the feeling you care more about people not doing 'wrong' things rather than people surviving. Which is fair, I'm not trying to judge here, I'd just like to know.

[+eveorjoy]

Dalinar's mistake was understandable, but it is not one Taravangian would have made. While I don't disagree that Taravangian might be making a huge mistake, I would argue that being a genius means you are going to make less mistakes on average. That's one definiton of what intelligence is: the ability to accomplish your desires in a variety of environments.

 

I'm not so sure Taravangian would have realized the message was a recording and not a two way conversation. Maybe he would have realized, but there is no evidence in the visions that suggests the speaker is not aware of the person who is seeing the vision, especially because they are so interactive. Regardless, high intelligence isn't the only requirement for rule. Ethics and morality are also very important.

 

 

Why? You seem to be making an emotional judgement here. If Taravangian's murder of a few thousand terminally ill people leads to people surviving the Desolation vs Taravangian doing nothing and the Desolation wiping out of all of humanity, I think the choice is pretty clear. Perhaps you don't see more lives being saved as a good thing? Or perhaps you think there's no way Taravangian will accomplish his goals?

 

So murder makes one a good ruler? Then Hitler was great ruler. And I don't say that for shock value. Time magazine in 1938 made him man of the year because of all the good they believed he did. Hitler was trying to make the world a better place by making sure resources were used for the best of humanity and not wasted. And Hitler was very intelligent, maybe not as intelligent as Taravangian on his good days, but he was smart.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying Taravangian would kill off a race of people in concentration camps. I really don't know enough about him to make that judgement. But he is murdering some he deems acceptable losses to save others. And he isn't just killing off the terminally ill. If it were just the terminally ill I might not be as bothered. They were going to die anyway and it could be argued that it was a mercy killing. He is also kidnapping the homeless and poor because sometimes there aren't enough terminally ill people. So being down on your luck in Kharbarnth could be deadly. Is the murder of a homeless person of less importance than the murder of a merchant or a king? The choice to gather and then murder the lowest people in Kharbarnth is an act similar to sending slaves to run bridges without armor. Taravangian's methods are no worse or better than Sadeas's.   

 

 

He could hardly leave the dying in their own rooms and get the same information. They'd have to have a nurse watching over every terminally ill patient 24/7 in order to get their death cries. There's too many patients, not enough nurses.

 

You don't know if there aren't enough nurses. Nothing in the book suggest the hospitals are understaffed. But let's assume you are correct. Hire some of those people off the street they going to kill and have them record the last words. Or have the ardents do it. Or have female scholars and scribes from all over the kingdom do it. Maybe have it be a way to earn free time in the Palanaeum. Maybe he couldn't find people, but nothing suggests that he even tried. And why didn't he? Because the dying ceased to be people to him. The messages he was getting from them he deemed more important than their comfort in the end. Was he completely wrong? No. However, because he is so intelligent, if he saw these people as his equals he would have found a way to do it. I'm not a genius and I already suggested several methods. Maybe none of them would work, but we have no way of knowing this by the current text. 

 

 

Your argument is that the people don't like being murdered, so Taravangian shouldn't do what he's doing. Sure, okay, I'd prefer if people didn't have to die... but the Radiants are gone. The Heralds have given up their Blades. The next Desolation (which is less than 1000 days away if I recall) is coming. Do you really think anybody is going to survive the Desolation as it currently stands? With prepared nations filled with Surgebinders and Heralds, 9/10 people died. With barely any Surgebinders and no Heralds... things are bad. Really bad.

 

It's not people having to die that is the point. I agree sometimes there is no other choice and people do have to die. If you don't mind me quoting "Star Trek" the needs of the many do out way the needs of the few. But by your argument, however, human blood sacrifice is fine. So is experimenting on the healthy, as long as they don't contribute to society.

 

Forget fantasy, we can apply this to real life.

 

There are many illnesses we could find cures for if we stopped experimenting on healthy animals and instead used healthy humans. We can use criminals, the disabled, and the poor. A global pandemic, we are not prepared for, could wipe out the human race in way less than 1000 days.

 

 

Hypothetical situation:

• If you do nothing, everybody in the world dies.
• If you kill some terminally ill people (ie. those who are dying anyways), there is a chance everybody dies, but there's also a chance you save everyone.

If you're not going to pick option 2, then I think we ultimately care about different things. I care about humanity. I want people to live and be happy. Those who pick option 1 seem to prefer that humans don't do certain 'wrong' things because the things make them sad/angry/disgusted, even though people will die because of it.

 

Your assuming murdering is the only option. Tanavast told Dalinar not only to "unite them" but also that the Knights Radiant need to stand again. Taravangain isn't gathering surgebinders, other than Szeth and his reason for seeking him out wasn't to make him a Radiant. In fact he maybe killing surgebinders in those rooms for all we know.

 

Then again maybe he is gathering surgebinders and testing people as surgebinders before he bloods them. We really don't know. We can only go by what is in the text.

 

But lets say there really was no other way. People had to be killed to learn the information that would save Roshar. Okay, ask for volunteers. Say you will provide for their families, or give them something in exchange for their lives. Many sacrifices on blood alters through out history went willingly. Maybe go to old and explain the situation. The old of Kharbarnth maybe willing to die a few years early for their children's sake.

 

However, Tavangain may think it is the only way, but we as readers know it isn't. Dalinar is learning as much if not more from his visions, and he is able to remain alive to get them.

 

 

Are you arguing that everybody should starve and die, rather than just a few people die so everyone else can live? Again, I am curious as to your answer to the question above. I get the feeling you care more about people not doing 'wrong' things rather than people surviving. Which is fair, I'm not trying to judge here, I'd just like to know.

 

This actually happened in China under Mao Zedong. Millions died while the state was figuring out how to deal with the natural disasters. Food was available, but because it was deemed more important for the state to keep it for the good of all, people died at the doors of full grain warehouses.

 

If everyone will truly starve by spreading the food around, then yes some will need to die to save the rest. But even the most intelligent human is not going to know at what point you can't feed everyone.

 

I agree with giving Tavaganian the benefit of the doubt since we know so little, but people want to make him a hero when we have no evidence of his heroism.

[Bloodfalcon]

Dalinar's mistake was understandable, but it is not one Taravangian would have made. While I don't disagree that Taravangian might be making a huge mistake, I would argue that being a genius means you are going to make less mistakes on average. That's one definiton of what intelligence is: the ability to accomplish your desires in a variety of environments.

I could have sworn his extra intelligence comes at the cost of being extremely dim-witted about the same amount of time, no? I think that brings down your average a tad. At least Dalinar won't get stupid at random.... 

[Cracknut]

Except for the part where he didn't set up a system of slavery where his trusted friends could beat the people he didn't like to death, kept Kharbranth peaceful in a world of war, had free healthcare for all, and literally has said he was trying to save Roshar from the Desolation? Taravangian killed a few warlords. TLR screwed over an entire planet's ecosystem. It's an insult to Taravangian to compare him to TLR at this point. TLR was heavily influenced by Ruin and the worst aspects of Preservation. Taravangian might be influenced by Odium. TLR was certifiably insane.

TLR mistakenly ruined his planet. Everything he did from there was in order to save it. Roshar as it is isn't Travargarian's fault but he's ways of saving it might be same. He can't be 'the one who destroys' ofc but neither is he one who redeems. Just because he's not one of four. I see how Travargarian could be the good guy making sacrifices for greater good and having some crazy plans about uniting Roshar and that's possible. I would call him honorable as well but that's arguable point. This topic on the other hand isn't about that.

 

I don't see why people can't imagine Kaladin being destroyer. Vin and company were destroyers too in a way, it just turned out well. Szeth and Shallan are too obvious imo. Szeth being assassin and trying to kill main characters... He's already destroying even if he's doing it because he's controlled and even if he's master has good intentions. So whole mystery would be out of place.

 

Why I think that Shallan won't be the one... She's only woman among 4. I don't see how she could destroy something important. I mean it's not like she's about to lead Alethi's united armies or kill the guy who's leading those armies. She's just a pupil, all she could do is do some little bits of betrayal here and there. Only reason I'm not 100% sure about this is because of her connection with Ghostbloods.

Now Dalinar and Kaladin are believable candidates.

Dalinar is about to lead greatest army on Roshar. I'm 100% sure 'unite them' isn't about alethi or humans on roshar, its about humans and parshendi. And Dalinar could try to destroy Parshendi, that's one of his main motivations of uniting 10 armies. Not to mention that they killed he's brother. This guy could 'destroy' even if he's honor stays in place.

 

Kaladin is my main candidate. He's literally hanging in balance between Honor and Odium. He's actions so far are honorable, that's why he's becoming Radiant but how would he act if he met Amaram? I mean, he's been through so much !@#$ that honor is the only reason for which he's not being an obvious villain of some other story. Take that honor away and he'll either end his own life or try to have his revenge on Lighteyes. He also could mistakenly 'destroy' just like Vin did.

I want it to be Shallan but I doubt it. Most likely its Dalinar.

Edited December 26, 2013 by 213

[Crisapx]

I don't think it'll be Kaladin, he cares way to much about Syl, they've beem through a lot, and what she thinks or says as a lot of weight with him.

Unless Syl cooperates with him in the destroying(thinking it's the right thing to do) her feelings about it would stop kaladin...

[Matrim]

Dalinar's mistake was understandable, but it is not one Taravangian would have made. While I don't disagree that Taravangian might be making a huge mistake, I would argue that being a genius means you are going to make less mistakes on average. That's one definiton of what intelligence is: the ability to accomplish your desires in a variety of environments.

Why? You seem to be making an emotional judgement here. If Taravangian's murder of a few thousand terminally ill people leads to people surviving the Desolation vs Taravangian doing nothing and the Desolation wiping out of all of humanity, I think the choice is pretty clear. Perhaps you don't see more lives being saved as a good thing? Or perhaps you think there's no way Taravangian will accomplish his goals?

He could hardly leave the dying in their own rooms and get the same information. They'd have to have a nurse watching over every terminally ill patient 24/7 in order to get their death cries. There's too many patients, not enough nurses.

Your argument is that the people don't like being murdered, so Taravangian shouldn't do what he's doing. Sure, okay, I'd prefer if people didn't have to die... but the Radiants are gone. The Heralds have given up their Blades. The next Desolation (which is less than 1000 days away if I recall) is coming. Do you really think anybody is going to survive the Desolation as it currently stands? With prepared nations filled with Surgebinders and Heralds, 9/10 people died. With barely any Surgebinders and no Heralds... things are bad. Really bad.

Hypothetical situation:

• If you do nothing, everybody in the world dies.
• If you kill some terminally ill people (ie. those who are dying anyways), there is a chance everybody dies, but there's also a chance you save everyone.

If you're not going to pick option 2, then I think we ultimately care about different things. I care about humanity. I want people to live and be happy. Those who pick option 1 seem to prefer that humans don't do certain 'wrong' things because the things make them sad/angry/disgusted, even though people will die because of it.

Are you arguing that everybody should starve and die, rather than just a few people die so everyone else can live? Again, I am curious as to your answer to the question above. I get the feeling you care more about people not doing 'wrong' things rather than people surviving. Which is fair, I'm not trying to judge here, I'd just like to know.

The whole book is about people not doing 'wrong' things rather than people surviving. Not saying you need to accept the idea, but I'd say that's what TWoK is trying to preach. Do you find it surprising that people agree with it?

[Moogle]

I'm not so sure Taravangian would have realized the message was a recording and not a two way conversation. Maybe he would have realized, but there is no evidence in the visions that suggests the speaker is not aware of the person who is seeing the vision, especially because they are so interactive. Regardless, high intelligence isn't the only requirement for rule. Ethics and morality are also very important.

 

I'm sorry, I was unclear. I don't think Taravangian would have made the mistake of trusting Sadeas (or a similar person) because he isn't a warlord and isn't trying to win a war. Kharbranth is peaceful, and Taravangian avoids outright battle.

 

Dalinar, on the other hand, decided that the best way to do things against the Parshendi was to try and unite the highprinces and win the war against the Parshendi. This is a rather fundamental difference I feel. Dalinar started a war on purpose against the Parshendi, a war the Alethi started without even bothering with diplomacy. How many Parshendi has Dalinar killed? Thousands?

 

 

 

So murder makes one a good ruler? Then Hitler was great ruler. And I don't say that for shock value. Time magazine in 1938 made him man of the year because of all the good they believed he did. Hitler was trying to make the world a better place by making sure resources were used for the best of humanity and not wasted. And Hitler was very intelligent, maybe not as intelligent as Taravangian on his good days, but he was smart.

 

Again, I apologize for not being clear. I was saying that Taravangian murdering people is the better choice between having everyone on Roshar die and having a few people be murdered, not saying that murder is what makes a good ruler. I'd like to make it clear that I do not support murder as a general problem solving method.

 

As to Hitler: Taravangian is not trying to make sure resources aren't wasted. He's trying to save Roshar from the Desolation. He's not starting concentration camps, he's killing a bunch of terrible leaders (plus some unfortunate bystanders). Hitler killed almost 6 million jews, and Szeth has killed what, maybe a few thousand people at most?

 

 

 

The choice to gather and then murder the lowest people in Kharbarnth is an act similar to sending slaves to run bridges without armor. Taravangian's methods are no worse or better than Sadeas's. 

 

That's fair. I don't particularly care about the methods, though, I care about why they're doing it. Sadeas is killing bridgemen off so he can acquire wealth, fame, and get revenge for Gavilar's death. He's a bloodthirsty greedy warlord. Taravangian is killing people to save the world from a Desolation.

 

 

 

You don't know if there aren't enough nurses. Nothing in the book suggest the hospitals are understaffed. But let's assume you are correct. Hire some of those people off the street they going to kill and have them record the last words. Or have the ardents do it. Or have female scholars and scribes from all over the kingdom do it. Maybe have it be a way to earn free time in the Palanaeum. Maybe he couldn't find people, but nothing suggests that he even tried. And why didn't he? Because the dying ceased to be people to him. The messages he was getting from them he deemed more important than their comfort in the end. Was he completely wrong? No. However, because he is so intelligent, if he saw these people as his equals he would have found a way to do it. I'm not a genius and I already suggested several methods. Maybe none of them would work, but we have no way of knowing this by the current text.

 

I was not saying the hospitals were understaffed, I was saying that recording death cries is a 24/7 job and that I don't think there is a 1:1 sick patient to nurse ratio.

 

You do bring up a good point. They could get volunteers to do it. There are other ways to do things other than bloodletting. Taravangian did not do this, and I don't know why. I hope Brandon has reasons he didn't do it other than wanting to have Taravangian murder people when he didn't have to.

 

At a guess as to why, I would think that Taravangian wants to keep his collection of death prophecies secret. Without more information, I can't judge if this is worth the cost.

 

 

 

It's not people having to die that is the point. I agree sometimes there is no other choice and people do have to die. If you don't mind me quoting "Star Trek" the needs of the many do out way the needs of the few. But by your argument, however, human blood sacrifice is fine. So is experimenting on the healthy, as long as they don't contribute to society.

 

Forget fantasy, we can apply this to real life.

 

There are many illnesses we could find cures for if we stopped experimenting on healthy animals and instead used healthy humans. We can use criminals, the disabled, and the poor. A global pandemic, we are not prepared for, could wipe out the human race in way less than 1000 days.

 

Hrm. I think I'd actually support criminals offering themselves up for medical science in order for things like, say, a reduced prison sentence. This is a perverse incentive for the government to arrest more people, and there could be a lot of subtle issues that I'm missing, but I think it'd be workable.

 

As to a pandemic: do you have evidence such a pandemic is likely to occur within the next 3 years? Taravangian has a death prophecy saying that the Everstorm is only 1000 days off. I think if we knew that such a pandemic was coming, and we knew enough about what kind of disease it was, that it would be reasonable to start massive scientific research (which included testing on humans) in order to stop it and prevent most of the world from dying off. Do you disagree?

 

 

Your assuming murdering is the only option. Tanavast told Dalinar not only to "unite them" but also that the Knights Radiant need to stand again. Taravangain isn't gathering surgebinders, other than Szeth and his reason for seeking him out wasn't to make him a Radiant. In fact he maybe killing surgebinders in those rooms for all we know.

 

I like the theory that everyone who speaks prophecies when they die is a Surgebinder-candidate. Upvote for that. Murdering isn't the only option, I agree, and I'm not sure what alternatives Taravangian looked at or why he chose murder over them. Information is life in this scenario, so perhaps that's reason enough to extract as much death cries from people as possible. Given that he likely made all of his plans on a really good day, though, I think that he probably had very good reasons for choosing murder. Hopefully we find out more in WoR.

 

 

 

But lets say there really was no other way. People had to be killed to learn the information that would save Roshar. Okay, ask for volunteers. Say you will provide for their families, or give them something in exchange for their lives. Many sacrifices on blood alters through out history went willingly. Maybe go to old and explain the situation. The old of Kharbarnth maybe willing to die a few years early for their children's sake.

 

However, Tavangain may think it is the only way, but we as readers know it isn't. Dalinar is learning as much if not more from his visions, and he is able to remain alive to get them.

 

The volunteer idea is not a bad plan, though I really really really doubt there would be many volunteers. Probably not enough for Taravangian's needs. Still, it's an idea and I don't know whether or not Taravangian considered it or why he didn't do it. I think that it would be unlikely to work because of how ridiculous asking for volunteers would be, though. Imagine a brochure from the government: "There's an apocalypse coming. Sign up now so we can kill you and maybe your death babbling will be useful enough that we can stop it! We'll provide for your families."

 

I think he wants to keep the prophecies secret. I think telling the public about his gathering of them could backfire, but perhaps it wouldn't. Again, I'm not sure why Taravangian did what he did. We need more PoVs.

 

 

 

This actually happened in China under Mao Zedong. Millions died while the state was figuring out how to deal with the natural disasters. Food was available, but because it was deemed more important for the state to keep it for the good of all, people died at the doors of full grain warehouses.

 

I'm not sure I understand your point, here. Mao Zedong made a huge mistake and seems incompetent if he was incapable of getting food to people while having full warehouses. The state deeming it more important to keep it for the good of all is hardly an argument against Taravangian because the Chinese government failed to save more lives by keeping the grain rather than giving it out. The correct decision 'for the good of all' was to give the grain to the people. Unless my quick skim of Wikipedia failed to tell me of some subtleties I missed?

 

 

 

If everyone will truly starve by spreading the food around, then yes some will need to die to save the rest. But even the most intelligent human is not going to know at what point you can't feed everyone.

 

Er, I'm pretty sure we're very capable of this. We know how many calories are in food, we know how many calories an average individual needs per day to not starve. If we have an accurate total of the number of people (and their genders/ages/whatever) and an accurate total of how much food we have, then it seems pretty simple to me. (Yes it's more complicated because nutrients and whatnot but it seems fairly easy to me. Math capable of being done on paper!)

 

 

 

I agree with giving Tavaganian the benefit of the doubt since we know so little, but people want to make him a hero when we have no evidence of his heroism.

 

I don't think I'd call him a hero. We have evidence he's working to help the world, and he's apparently executing his plan without any major difficulties. We need more information to judge things more accurately.

 

I could have sworn his extra intelligence comes at the cost of being extremely dim-witted about the same amount of time, no? I think that brings down your average a tad. At least Dalinar won't get stupid at random.... 

 

It's not random! We know from Brandon that there is a pattern that seems random. Also, given the way Feruchemy works, I imagine everything averages out to the way Taravangian was before he visited the Nightwatcher.

 

Taravangian also tests himself daily. If he's stupid, he doesn't make decisions, so his stupidity can't harm anything. It might be harmful if things happen quickly, ie. the Desolation happens and everywhere is attacked by thunderclasts while Taravangian is having a stupid day. However, I think he's got people who can deal with things while he's incapacitated.

 

The whole book is about people not doing 'wrong' things rather than people surviving. Not saying you need to accept the idea, but I'd say that's what TWoK is trying to preach. Do you find it surprising that people agree with it?

 

I don't find it surprising. Taravangian and Jasnah are both more consequentialist than deontologist, and they figure prominently in the books. I think they can pull the series away from the whole journey-not-destination thing, or at least offer an alternate viewpoint. I certainly hope Sanderson is better than Goodkind in this regard, and can make Taravangian and Amaram more than one dimensional caricatures and blatant villains. So far, he's done well. I'm not terribly worried.

[hoser]

I....

 

Dalinar, on the other hand, decided that the best way to do things against the Parshendi was to try and unite the highprinces and win the war against the Parshendi. This is a rather fundamental difference I feel. Dalinar started a war on purpose against the Parshendi, a war the Alethi started without even bothering with diplomacy. How many Parshendi has Dalinar killed? Thousands?

This seems somewhere between harsh and backwards to me. 

 

The Alethi did peace and diplomacy w/the Parshendi.  The Parshendi then murdered their king and many of their soldiers with an unprovoked and largely honorless betrayal.  Everybody concerned, be they the bridgemen, Parshendi or Alethi seems to think that the war of retribution is justified.  What would be the point of diplomacy?  A treaty?  We saw how that worked out. 

 

I think there will be an accommodation, but it would have been far better for all concerned if the Parshendi had tried to communicate rather than unilaterally breach the treaty and initiate violent action against the Alethis. 

 

Dalinar and Elhokar could have done more diplomatically, but given the situation, it seems inaccurate to accuse Dalinar of starting a war.  He is changing the tactics in a war the Parshendi initiated. 

[Bloodfalcon]

It's not random! We know from Brandon that there is a pattern that seems random. Also, given the way Feruchemy works, I imagine everything averages out to the way Taravangian was before he visited the Nightwatcher.

 Woah nice post. BUT as far as being a world leader, I think coordinated stupidity might be WORSE! if anyone knew when to strike, you would be a sitting duck! but that is just for funzies. Overall I think Big T would probably be better too. I just like Dalinar more.

[Auri Garvel Xel'iathi]

Just as a sidenote, being a genius doesn't guarantee that you won't mess up the small stuff because it's easy.It helps, sure. But actually, because you move on to solving bigger and harder probems it does mean that your mistakes, when they happen, will consequently be bigger and harder to fix as well.

[Moogle]

This seems somewhere between harsh and backwards to me. 

 

The Alethi did peace and diplomacy w/the Parshendi.  The Parshendi then murdered their king and many of their soldiers with an unprovoked and largely honorless betrayal.  Everybody concerned, be they the bridgemen, Parshendi or Alethi seems to think that the war of retribution is justified.  What would be the point of diplomacy?  A treaty?  We saw how that worked out. 

 

I for one think that the war is not justified. The Alethi didn't even ask the Parshendi why they killed Gavilar.

 

 

I would send more envoys and scholars to find out why the Parshendi killed Gavilar. We gave up on that too easily. I still wonder if the assassination was initiated by miscreants or rebels among their own people.

 

Dalinar even admits they don't know if it was rebels! The Alethi started a war, killing thousands of their own people and thousands of potentially innocent Parshendi without the slightest bit of rational thought. They wanted revenge, and thousands are dead because of it.

 

If there's one thing that's been hammered over and over throughout the books, it is that the Alethi are irrationally aggressive. We see Kaladin's army having border skirmishes with other highprinces' armies! People that are supposed to be united.

 

And the fact is, diplomacy might very well have worked. But it was not an option, because Dalinar and Elhokar were too busy being hungry for revenge. Dalinar is still trying to win the war against the Parshendi, change of tactics or not. He's going to get more soldiers killed, more Parshendi killed.

 

Taravangian, for all of his flaws, has not started any wars as of yet.

 

Dalinar is a warlord, pure and simple. I do not think my words were overly harsh at all. The Alethi are very clearly being influenced by Odium.

 

I dislike war.

[+eveorjoy]

I'm sorry, I was unclear. I don't think Taravangian would have made the mistake of trusting Sadeas (or a similar person) because he isn't a warlord and isn't trying to win a war. Kharbranth is peaceful, and Taravangian avoids outright battle.

Dalinar, on the other hand, decided that the best way to do things against the Parshendi was to try and unite the highprinces and win the war against the Parshendi. This is a rather fundamental difference I feel. Dalinar started a war on purpose against the Parshendi, a war the Alethi started without even bothering with diplomacy. How many Parshendi has Dalinar killed? Thousands?

I'm not sure Taravangian wouldn't go to war, if he had the armies. I'm not sure he would either. Our impression that Taravangian is a man of peace comes from Shallan's POV. She also thought he was a little dumb, so we know now that she didn't know him at all. We don't know this man. However, I get the impression that if he had access to an army and felt war was necessary he'd do it. I'm not saying this as a condemnation, just a simple fact. Someone who will kidnap people and kill them for what he believes is the greater good is capable of anything.

Also Dalinar isn't the same man who drank himself into stupor the night his brother died. He is changing and he regrets many that he has killed. That doesn't excuse him, but he is trying to change. Before he considered uniting the highprinces to end the war, he suggested ending the war to Elhokar. That went over like a lead balloon, but he did suggest it.

I think that if Eshonai could speak with Dalinar and sue for peace, Dalinar would consider it. if the Alethi would agree to it is another matter.

If Dalinar survives WOR I doubt he will still be a highprince of Alethikar. Of course this is just me speculating. We will just have to see.

Again, I apologize for not being clear. I was saying that Taravangian murdering people is the better choice between having everyone on Roshar die and having a few people be murdered, not saying that murder is what makes a good ruler. I'd like to make it clear that I do not support murder as a general problem solving method.

As to Hitler: Taravangian is not trying to make sure resources aren't wasted. He's trying to save Roshar from the Desolation. He's not starting concentration camps, he's killing a bunch of terrible leaders (plus some unfortunate bystanders). Hitler killed almost 6 million jews, and Szeth has killed what, maybe a few thousand people at most?

It's not the number of people being killed that matters, its the fact that they are selected as sacrifices just because they are deemed unimportant. I'm referring more to those that are kidnapped than those who are all ready dying. Taravangian crossed a line when he began murdering healthy people because no one would miss them. If it can be justified Brandon is going to have a hard time doing so.

Taravangian is shaping up to be a very human and very sympathetic villain, but a villain none the less. Though even in saying that I agree we don't know everything about this man yet.

That's fair. I don't particularly care about the methods, though, I care about why they're doing it. Sadeas is killing bridgemen off so he can acquire wealth, fame, and get revenge for Gavilar's death. He's a bloodthirsty greedy warlord. Taravangian is killing people to save the world from a Desolation.

Taravangian's reasons are more noble than Sadeas, but the lack of respect for the lives of the lowest members society is the same.

As to a pandemic: do you have evidence such a pandemic is likely to occur within the next 3 years? Taravangian has a death prophecy saying that the Everstorm is only 1000 days off. I think if we knew that such a pandemic was coming, and we knew enough about what kind of disease it was, that it would be reasonable to start massive scientific research (which included testing on humans) in order to stop it and prevent most of the world from dying off. Do you disagree?

The scary thing about a pandemic is we can't be sure when one will strike, though scientists say we are overdue for one.

I'm not so sure the 1000 days means exactly a 1000 days. If it did we would be given the start date and informed how much time there was left. Maybe we will be given this information in WOR. Regardless, killing people to hear their death ramblings won't necessarily save everyone either. Hopefully, Taravangian is doing more than having people killed, by his staff or by Szeth.

We will have to see.

I'm not sure I understand your point, here. Mao Zedong made a huge mistake and seems incompetent if he was incapable of getting food to people while having full warehouses. The state deeming it more important to keep it for the good of all is hardly an argument against Taravangian because the Chinese government failed to save more lives by keeping the grain rather than giving it out. The correct decision 'for the good of all' was to give the grain to the people. Unless my quick skim of Wikipedia failed to tell me of some subtleties I missed?

I don't like Mao, but there are people who admire his political philosophies and consider him a genius. Mao's philosophies are debated in colleges. He dropped the ball in this case, which is why I don't think being a genius means you will be a great ruler. Of course, I tend to agree with the idea that all power needs checks and balances. My point in bringing Mao up was that some think Taravangain will be the best ruler of Roshar because he is so smart every now and then. Mao shows that even smart people can be awful leaders.

Maybe Taravangian would be a good leader for Roshar, but nothing in the text supports this.

Er, I'm pretty sure we're very capable of this. We know how many calories are in food, we know how many calories an average individual needs per day to not starve. If we have an accurate total of the number of people (and their genders/ages/whatever) and an accurate total of how much food we have, then it seems pretty simple to me. (Yes it's more complicated because nutrients and whatnot but it seems fairly easy to me. Math capable of being done on paper!)

Yes, mathematically we can figure out how much people need to survive, though people sometimes to defy the math and die sooner or later than excepted. I'd keep discussing this point, but I fear we you get into territory that has nothing to do with Taravangian in the text.

I prefer Dalinar as a leader to Taravangian because at least I would know where I would stand with him.

Taravangian, for all of his flaws, has not started any wars as of yet.

Dalinar is a warlord, pure and simple. I do not think my words were overly harsh at all. The Alethi are very clearly being influenced by Odium.

I dislike war.

Considering how Dalinar is beginning to be disgusted by killing on the battlefield, he may not be a warlord much longer. I think Dalinar is doing what he is doing because he is still trying to work with the highprinces. Will this work? I guess we will have to see, but it is quite possible Dalinar maybe a man of peace by the end of WOR. Most likely not however, because Honor is asking him to return a group of warrior knights, which Sanderson has said is the point of the Stormlight Archive.

So if you hate war, what do think of the Knight's Radiant?

Finally, don't assume Taravangian wouldn't go to war. We have no way of knowing whether or not he would. And even if he wouldn't, his peace will not be bloodless.

Edited December 27, 2013 by eveorjoy

[Natans]

One question, it's only the IQ of Mr. T that change or his personality change as well every day? I ask this because I got the impression that the smarts Mr. T kind control the dumbs Mr. T with his tests and all.

 

If you have a diferents inteligence levels you would see thing in diferents ways, For exampe a dumb Mr. T wouldn't compreend "the need" of killing kings and lords to achieve a great good, and wouldn't be soo evil where the smarts one would understand things that the dumb ones couldn't and would act in ways that to someone less "intelligent" would be evil, etc.

 

If this com to pass, for sure would explain way Taravagian looked a very kind person in the the begining of the booksmaybe wasn't  a facade at all  and he had "multiple personalities". All the "same man" but different versions. =)

 

PS: And Brandon kind played exactly with this idea in legion so how knows =)

Edited December 27, 2013 by Natans

[hoser]

I for one think that the war is not justified. The Alethi didn't even ask the Parshendi why they killed Gavilar.

 

 

Dalinar even admits they don't know if it was rebels! The Alethi started a war, killing thousands of their own people and thousands of potentially innocent Parshendi without the slightest bit of rational thought. They wanted revenge, and thousands are dead because of it.

 

If there's one thing that's been hammered over and over throughout the books, it is that the Alethi are irrationally aggressive. We see Kaladin's army having border skirmishes with other highprinces' armies! People that are supposed to be united.

 

And the fact is, diplomacy might very well have worked. But it was not an option, because Dalinar and Elhokar were too busy being hungry for revenge. Dalinar is still trying to win the war against the Parshendi, change of tactics or not. He's going to get more soldiers killed, more Parshendi killed.

 

Taravangian, for all of his flaws, has not started any wars as of yet.

 

Dalinar is a warlord, pure and simple. I do not think my words were overly harsh at all. The Alethi are very clearly being influenced by Odium.

 

I dislike war.

Under the orders of the Parshendi government Szeth kills many guards and finally the king.  Each death is a unilateral and deliberate act of war initiated by the Parshendi.  There is no rebel faction.  They make no effort to communicate their concerns with their new ally before resorting to violence. 

 

The Parshendi could explain themselves at any time.  They could deliver those responsible for Szeth's unjustified murders to the Alethi and attempt to negotiate a new understanding any day.  All they have to do is send some people under a flag of truce.  They never have. 

 

The quote you offer proves that the Alethi were more responsible than the Parshendi for attempting to understand.  The Alethi sent "envoys and scholars".  What did the Parshendi do?  Murder innocents and not explain.  Rebuff all efforts to communicate. 

 

Just because, in moments of private doubt, Dalinar wonders what would have happened if they had pursued peace more strongly, none of the onus for the war they started is removed from the Parshendi. 

 

Whether the Alethi are warlike or not and whether they have civil strife at home are irrelevant.  The Parshendi started the war with an ally without even trying to negotiate or communicate.  Gavilar had no idea that what he was doing would upset the Parshendi.  The Alethi attempted to communicate before retaliating.   The Parshendi failed to communicate and are repeating that choice every minute of the war. 

 

Dalinar may be warlike and he may describe himself as a warlord, but he is acting within his role as part of the Alethi government.  He is highprince and will soon be Highprince for War.  He has, and will be, performing his duties as an Alethi government officer.

Edited December 27, 2013 by hoser

[18th Shard]

Has anyone considered that the saving and destroying are not two things? If this is from the point of view of spren, perhaps by saving the world they destroy the spren?