[Theory] Neuroatypical issues and the Nahel bond

[Rakei]

I have been looking and I can't find anyone who makes the case for the connection between the "broken" people and the bond the spren create, however it's something I've been contemplating for a while.

 

I think it's Pattern who speaks about how Shallan was broken and that's how the nahel bond could be formed and I found it interesting because I can see four other KR's who might be termed Broken in the same kind of way.

 

My thoughts are as follows.

 

Shallan: her mental problem is that she dissociates - she is unable to deal with truth - Her Spren is a cryptic who progresses her in her order through Self Awareness and Truth. She's only able to deepen her nahel bond through overcoming her issues of dissociation. The essense attributes of her order is Creativity and Honesty.

 

Kaladin: His mental issue is Depression - he is prone to giving up and inaction - His Spren is Honorspren - he progresses in the nahel bond through dedication to Protect (action) - His anger and restlessness in WoR lead him to mildly depressed state where he chooses inaction - but he revives the nahel bond with Syl by rededicating himself to protection and proaction. The essense atributes of his order is Protecting and Leadership.

 

Renarin: His mental issue is Autism - Autism is linked to issues of learning and development  - It's harder to say exactly how he progresses as of yet, but Truthwatcher and the essense attributes Learned and Giving.

Give some indication that it'll likely be through similar means as Shallan, he also seemed to grow to fit in better with the Bridgemen, overcoming difficulties in relating to others? perhaps he'll need to become more of a scholar and accept his abilities.

 

Ym: His mental issue indicated in his chapter, is addiction, (he's described as having drunk and partied away all his inheritance) Which is why I would suggest he was also a Truthwatcher (rather than an Edgedancer) His addiction makes him a Taker. Overcoming his addiction and dedicating himself to hearing the stories of everyone he helps (giver) also means he's dedicated to learning.

 

Lift: Her mental issue is I suspect ADHD, she's prone to distraction and not paying attention(uncaring). Her bond with her Spren Wyndle deepens when she acknowledges and speaks the second ideal of her order - "I will remember those who have been forgotten" (Caring) the essense attribute is Loving(caring) and Healing.

 

Jasnah: I honestly don't know, but I suspect she has some issue she's overcome to a large degree being she's proficient in Elsecalling, Her issue likely deals with the opposites of the essense attributes Wise and Careful. Perhaps something that makes/made her unreasonable, insensitive, blunt, thoughtless, inattentive? Absentminded? Losing herself in scholarship? could be something similar to Lift, ADHD, hyperfocus is part of it after-all. 

 

Dalinar: His mental issue, might be the same as Ym, addiction, he's described as having been almost addicted to the Thrill, and he was prone to drinking in excess, furthermore he was neglectful and mismanaged the war for a similar reason, addicted to the idea of getting revenge, excessively attached to the codes, causing division, he also lost faith as he was told Honor was dead, the almighty was gone. Overcoming his flaws which lead to division of the kingdom, he was neglectful for many years while Gavilar had the throne, and the other high princes manouvered, then when Gavilar died in his shame and self-recrimation for that neglect lead him to become attached to the codes which in turn lead the other high-princes to see him as divisive, because he put himself as holier than them. Dalinar dedicates himself fully to the ideal of uniting rather than dividing with his second oath. The attributes connected to Bondsmiths are Pious and Guiding. Dalinar has to overcome his need to force and control the path of others.

 

Now we come to speculation!

 

Elhokar: His mental issue is paranoia - he's erratic, fearful and (self)-destructive (he's acknowledged this last one, he tries to do right, but he keeps self-destructing in some way) I make the argument here that he's very clearly "broken" he's already seen something that seems to be spren of some kind. Going by the already formed pattern his mental issue makes him the opposite of the essense attribute of the order, Willshaper is the most likely with the attributes Resolute and Builder. 

Further I think he also contains some of the positives,having a love of adventure, novelty and oddity. 

 

Rysn: I'm not certain but I'm going to call her leaping off the Island irresponsible and unstable (in the search for dependability and resourcefulness) again working from the theory that an order's KR will have to overcome a mental deficiency opposite the essense attribute here Dependable and Resourceful would make her a candidate for Stonewarden. I'd even say she embodies one of the flaws of the Stonewardens, Stubbornness, she was unwilling to give up even when she was told by the King that the trade wouldn't be possible, she also somehow survived a rather large fall. (I'm not as certain of this one, but I think it works)

 

Eshonai: I think her Mental issue is Social Anxiety (fear), her adventuring and discovering seems to me to be to a large degree to remain away from her people, she's IIRC described by her mother as being a disobedient child. Eshonai is clearly scarred in some way, and again if we do as before, the things she's been overcoming has been the opposite attributes to the Order of Dustbringers(releasers) Bravery(courage) and Obedience. (again it's debatable, and I'm not sure about Parshendi and Surgebinding as such, but she's at least a candidate in my mind for that order, again because of how I've interpreted her personality.)

 

Szeth - I'm just not sure how to touch this one... Like he's shattered, I can imagine he might become a Skybreaker? He's completely without confidence and I'm not sure he trusts that what he has done was truly just, so it might be that he's going to need to overcome his uncertainty, self-doubt, and what injustice he might caused before? I don't think he's going to be Evil in any case, I think the beauty will be in how he comes to be a whole and hale person fighting for Roshar.

 

I'm gonna end it here, I'm interested in hearing if anyone has any thoughts and if it makes sense in some fashion.

[Cemci she/her]

I think this is excellent - connects orders to actual mental issues. Highly interesting to read, but I wonder what you would say about Adolin? He's frequently the topic of debate here, and specifically what order he would be a candidate for. 

 

Here's a couple of things to consider about Adolin

 

He's impulsive

• He lashes out against Dalinar in the map room in WoK, when Dalinar's sanity is under question
• He kills Sadeas in WoR

He wants to help people around him succeed

• He's a soldier by circumstance
• He takes on multiple duels and duellists in order to advance Dalinar's cause (win Shards for me, son)

He likes to remember the forgotten

• His mother - literally forgotten by Dalinar - through the necklace
• His Blade - talks to it ahead of every duel
• The stable boys he jokes with in WoR on the trek through the Plains
• Puts himself in prison for Kaladin

He's very attached to his parents and family

• Quite close to Dalinar
• Allows Navani to mother him (irregular at his age)

He's refined in a societal context

• Used to love picking out outfits for the next day
• Looks at men's fashion folios
• Hates hunting (barbaric)
• Dislikes menageries (considers them 'low')
• Loves duelling (staged combat)
• Makes a soldier's uniform look stylish (You could argue that's because he's handsome)

 

These are a couple of things people point to when arguing for Adolin to join a KR order (typically either Dustbringer or Edgedancer). Could you conduct an analysis like you did for the others above for Adolin?

Edited November 16, 2015 by Cemci

[+Slowswift he/him]

Okay, I really love this theory, and not just because I'm that much more likely to become a Truthwatcher.

[Blightsong he/him]

Very interesting idea that would explain a lot of things. I'm not sure, but I think that Brandon has said that the "breaking" that happens is basicly a snapping, like an allommancer. We'll see what happens.

[~ Syl ~ she/her]

This is an excellent theory that warrants furthur thought. Thanks for sharing it.

 

 

Very interesting idea that would explain a lot of things. I'm not sure, but I think that Brandon has said that the "breaking" that happens is basicly a snapping, like an allommancer. We'll see what happens.

 

Do you have a reference for that? I'd like to read it.

[DSC01 he/him]

I'm not sure where the quote is, but I'm pretty sure that I remember a WoB that all magic users in the Cosmere have cracks in their spiritwebs that allow Investiture to get in.

[skaa he/him]

From the cover of WoR:

 

It is the nature of the magic. A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit. Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves. They can brace a broken soul; but they can also widen its fissures.

[Random Observations R Me]

Elhokar: His mental issue is paranoia - he's erratic, fearful and (self)-destructive (he's acknowledged this last one, he tries to do right, but he keeps self-destructing in some way) I make the argument here that he's very clearly "broken" he's already seen something that seems to be spren of some kind. Going by the already formed pattern his mental issue makes him the opposite of the essense attribute of the order, Willshaper is the most likely with the attributes Resolute and Builder. 

Further I think he also contains some of the positives,having a love of adventure, novelty and oddity. 

I'm going to disagree with you here. I don't have the books with me in hardcover(only have my audio versions at the moment), but I seem to remember a point in Words of Radiance where Elhokar went to Kaladin's barracks and asked Kal to teach him how to be a leader. One of the comments he made during that conversation was something along the lines of "While you were there, the shadows went away." To me - though I could be totally wrong! - this says that they weren't Knight Radiant symbol-heads(I seem to remember this from somewhere involving Elhokar, but I can't remember where.). They were Bad Guy symbol-head/shadow... thing-y's.

 

If anyone could confirm or disprove either the comment about Kal making the things go away or them actually looking like symbol-heads, I would much appreciate it.

[skaa he/him]

I'm going to disagree with you here. I don't have the books with me in hardcover(only have my audio versions at the moment), but I seem to remember a point in Words of Radiance where Elhokar went to Kaladin's barracks and asked Kal to teach him how to be a leader. One of the comments he made during that conversation was something along the lines of "While you were there, the shadows went away." To me - though I could be totally wrong! - this says that they weren't Knight Radiant symbol-heads(I seem to remember this from somewhere involving Elhokar, but I can't remember where.). They were Bad Guy symbol-head/shadow... thing-y's.

 

Maybe. Cryptics don't like honorspren, though, so Syl may be the reason of the symbolheads' departure. I agree that those Cryptic-looking spren probably weren't there to bond Elhokar, but that doesn't mean he won't get his own spren later on.

Edited November 16, 2015 by skaa

[Rakei]

I think this is excellent - connects orders to actual mental issues. Highly interesting to read, but I wonder what you would say about Adolin? He's frequently the topic of debate here, and specifically what order he would be a candidate for. 

 

Here's a couple of things to consider about Adolin

 

He's impulsive

He wants to help people around him succeed

He likes to remember the forgotten

He's very attached to his parents and family

He's refined in a societal context

 

These are a couple of things people point to when arguing for Adolin to join a KR order (typically either Dustbringer or Edgedancer). Could you conduct an analysis like you did for the others above for Adolin?

 

(Cut for length)

 

Sure can do.

 

So the main reason I didn't include Adolin in my OP was that I'm not entirely convinced he's going to join an order of the KR. This might be an unpopular view, but as I have read and analysed him he's by and large a fairly regular and stable individual, with some exceptions.

I yield on the grounds that we don't exactly know his past (in the same way we don't know Jasnah's) I will however try to see where I think he's most likely to be based on the flaws in his personality.

 

Adolin tends towards shallow, need for gratification(he wants to duel and seethes internally about being kept from it by Dalinar), being center of attention(multiple failed courtings). All of these to me seem to suggest most powerfully the idea of him being an Edgedancer like Lift, he needs to overcome his proclivity to Take, and become much more of a Giver and Lover.

 

Edgedancers are considered quite deadly, refined and gracious, but what stands out to me about Adolin as a potential Edgedancer is that Darkness tells Lift this: "It is unfortunate they were always so concerned with small-minded things, while ignoring those of greater import."

It falls in line with Adolin's focus on dealing with Sadeas, nearly his entire focus became occupied with how to deal with him in WoR.

[Rakei]

Edited November 16, 2015 by Rakei

[Rakei]

I'm going to disagree with you here. I don't have the books with me in hardcover(only have my audio versions at the moment), but I seem to remember a point in Words of Radiance where Elhokar went to Kaladin's barracks and asked Kal to teach him how to be a leader. One of the comments he made during that conversation was something along the lines of "While you were there, the shadows went away." To me - though I could be totally wrong! - this says that they weren't Knight Radiant symbol-heads(I seem to remember this from somewhere involving Elhokar, but I can't remember where.). They were Bad Guy symbol-head/shadow... thing-y's.

 

If anyone could confirm or disprove either the comment about Kal making the things go away or them actually looking like symbol-heads, I would much appreciate it.

 

Ok so I have a completely different interpretation of what might be going on with Elhokar and him seeing these spren.

 

I think given the potential nature of his primary surge Transportation (if I'm correct about him being a potential Willshaper) is allowing him to see partially into Shadesmar.

Similarly to how Shallan kept drawing the symbol heads in her pictures, she was unwittingly glimpsing shadesmar, through her potential to use Soulcasting.

 

I'm not sure that the figures Elhokar saw were cryptics or if they were a similar type of spren, as I recall they were also shadowy and that's how Ivory, Jasnash's Spren is described.

 

They might be similar in form to both Jasnah's and Shallans Spren because they're so linked to shadesmar, in a way that the other surges don't necessitate to the same degree. But that's after all just my interpretation so far.

[Rakei]

That's why there is a clear paragraph break that includes the word speculation.

 

You don't need confirmation to speculate based on hermeneutics, I interpret that there is a possible pattern, I see potential other characters who fit the pattern and speculate based on that.

 

From a narrative perspective the story of the useless king overcoming his flaws to become a much better person and king as a result is also very interesting, and something that was hinted at during his drunken ramblings at Kaladin in WoR.

 

Eshonai I'm the least convinced of myself and I simply included her because I felt she might fit the pattern, it's also entirely possible she's simply not capable of forming a nahel bond at all.

[DSC01 he/him]

I think there are some clear hints that we'll see Parshendi Radiants. There haven't been any before, but it has been mentioned a number of times that this Desolation is different than any that came before. Eshonai is an obvious candidate, but it would be cool if Rlain became one, too.

[maxal she/her]

I somehow have an issue with considering Rysn, Elhokar, Eshonai and Szeth as proto-Radiants while completely disregarding Adolin... 

 

 

So the main reason I didn't include Adolin in my OP was that I'm not entirely convinced he's going to join an order of the KR. This might be an unpopular view, but as I have read and analysed him he's by and large a fairly regular and stable individual, with some exceptions.

 

Of course, being completely unable to develop any lasting relationships with human peers while desperately wanting to does strike me as "normal". The problem with Adolin is too many readers like to read him as a player, but he isn't. He does want his courtships to work out (a true player does not want a spouse, he just wants adventures), he wants to find himself a wife, but he keeps on unconsciously screwing up in a repetitive manner without being able to tell why. 

 

I am sorry to break the theory stating Adolin is a "regular" and "stable" individual, but he has massive attachment issues which are most likely linked to his mother's death when he was young. In other words, he has a built-in incapacity to develop any emotional link with women due to a repressed and quite unconscious fear of being abandoned or rejected. His only significant and complete relationship with a woman was with his mother and she died: she abandoned him. 

 

It is quite documented how the death of a parent can break the attachment link in children and how it can have lasting repercussions during adulthood: trouble in establishing significant relationships with his peers happens to be one of those. I believe it is called the "evasive attachment".

 

In other words, Adolin suffered a great loss when he was at a difficult age (beginning of teenage years), he never dealt with it appropriately as he likely took over the role of the protector and moral support for his family while he was the one needing it (and nobody was there to offer him support as who ever looks twice at apparently so strong Adolin?). As a result he grew up with a fear of losing his significant loved ones (loss of attachment) and his thus fearful in developing new ones. His inability to open-up to people is a protection mechanism he unconsciously apply to all his relationships to avoid being hurt again as he was hurt when he mother died. The ordeal also likely gave him the confirmation his own pains are not warranted (nobody ever took care of them) and less than those of his family members (the notion of self-sacrifice), which is essentially why he isn't "broken". He has to be strong for them: he can't let his pains rule him, they don't matter.

 

Another difference between Adolin and all of other characters is he does not show his weakness: he hides it quite deeply and projects an air of arrogant over-confidence to avoid exposing himself.

 

To reinforce the fact, I'd like to point out that when the life of Dalinar (a loved one, his last parental figure) is threaten by Szeth (a foe Adolin is not strong enough to beat), he becomes so unstable he is completely unable to control his own Shardblade. We see the same instability when he is confronted with the irrevocably of Sadeas's threat to his father: there was nothing he could do to remove the threat but kill the man. 

 

I thus disagree. Adolin is very unstable, but he has not been shoved hard enough to reach the point of no return all Radiants seem to have met, but he has piled in so much in the last years, the day he'll crash, it will be massive.

 

 

Adolin tends towards shallow, need for gratification(he wants to duel and seethes internally about being kept from it by Dalinar), being center of attention(multiple failed courtings). All of these to me seem to suggest most powerfully the idea of him being an Edgedancer like Lift, he needs to overcome his proclivity to Take, and become much more of a Giver and Lover.

 

Adolin does not duel because he wants gratification, he duels because it his self-esteem is tightly linked to his abilities as a fighter and the more he invest himself into it, the better he feels about himself. He never expresses any thoughts over wining except being pleased. He fulfilled his dream of becoming dueling champion and did not spend any time to reveal in it. His thoughts all went to Kaladin being imprisoned: again others matter more than himself.

 

Failed courtships: see above. It has nothing to do with wanting attention, though Adolin wants attention: he wants Navani's attention. He does not want women to look at him, he wants women to love him, but if there is love, then there is the impending separation.

[Rakei]

I'm not going to disagree with you, you've obviously analysed and interpreted Adolin more than I have, I'm only just re-reading the second book now and I haven't been focusing on him, not because he's not a great character, but like you mention, at this time? As he's not "cracked" in the same way some of the others are or potentially are, So I didn't consider him a proto-radiant in the same way I would the others.

 

I'd base this on the fact that we've actually had his point of view and he's as far as I recall never been in a situation where a spren has behaved irregularly.

 

I'm going to revise my position on Adolin though, thanks to your analysis and interpretation, he's a proto-proto-Radiant, he's missing the final blow, he's managing his issues to such a degree that he's kind of in stasis, he would need to crack so he can start overcoming his fear of loving? (if that's the right kind of issue, I still favour him for Edgedancers)

 

Now I never considered Adolin a player I want to point out, He's to my interpretation always extremely sincere in his wish to form deeper relationships, I disagree to some degree on his inability to relate to his peers, we don't know enough of the past, but his interactions with his fellow peers seems like they may have deteriorated by and large due to the issues of him being Dalinar's Son and expected to follow his rules (the Codes) at least as we see him in tWoK he doesn't appear to have problems, and his interactions with a few of the Duelers suggest that before he got hamstrung by his father and his own sense of right and wrong, he had a type of friendship with them. S

 

So narratively it's more a question of does he hold together or break, now I'd say it'd be impossible for him to become a KR unless he does break and starts to overcome his issues, and that could entail dealing with the loss of his mother, remembering her, (someone who's literally been forgotten, by someone) and then overcoming the fear of attachment and starting to build healthy relationships, it might even mean accepting in some way that he's NOT able to control everything, giving up his obsessive need to protect his family.

 

I'm going to briefly defend Rysn, because I considered the almost miraculous survival an indication something was up with her, but yeah I freely admit it's a bit of a stretch.

[Wyndrunner he/him]

One little piece of text in favor of Adolin being a Releaser:

 

“The firebrand [Adolin] I can understand,” Sadeas said. “You were once impetuous just like him.”

The Way of Kings, The Decoy, 491

I know it might be a little obvious that Sadeas calls him a "firebrand" (and I know that doesn't necessarily mean anything) but it could be a nice bit of foreshadowing.

[maxal she/her]

 

I'm not going to disagree with you, you've obviously analysed and interpreted Adolin more than I have, I'm only just re-reading the second book now and I haven't been focusing on him, not because he's not a great character, but like you mention, at this time? As he's not "cracked" in the same way some of the others are or potentially are, So I didn't consider him a proto-radiant in the same way I would the others.

 

The problem is I believe was may be misguided when it comes to "brokenness" of the Radiants. After hearing Kaladin and Shallan's story, we have all grown to think every other knight must have an equally traumatizing backstory. 

 

However, I'd lie to point that whereas Shallan was obviously severely traumatized by the assassination of both her mother and her father, these events happened after she bonded Pattern. Therefore, the most incapacitating event in her young life occurred after she had secured a Nahel bond. What was her life before? We have no idea and while we can invent a number of even more traumatic backstores for little Shallan, the truth is likely not very glorious. The Nahel bond does not need a complete breakdown to install itself, a child simply being wary around fighting parents may be sufficient.

 

I'd also like to state that while we do not know what happened in Jasnah's past, it is quite possible it was not as tragic as we started up thinking. Simply deciding to renounce her faith, to hold on her own beliefs in the face of the world was potentially sufficient. Why? Because I am personally growing increasingly convinced it is not the "breakdown" as we see it that helps the bond, but facing his own vulnerability and reaching a point where one thinks of giving up on what he hold dear is IT. Each knight we have seen has gone through the same pattern and while Kaladin needed to be beaten, enslaved and tortured to get there, it is not a requirement for all.

 

In that optic, it is, I believe false to assume there aren't events powerful enough in Adolin's life to have created enough crack to attract a Nahel bond. There are, but contrary to other characters, he has never contemplate the possibility of given . He can't. They need him and as long as they need him, he is going to refuse to show any sign of weaknesses which essentially prevents him from reaching the "breaking point".

 

 

I'd base this on the fact that we've actually had his point of view and he's as far as I recall never been in a situation where a spren has behaved irregularly.

 

We have not seen sprens behave irregularly around Szeth or Rysn either. We have seen a comet-like next to Eshonai and while Brandon confirmed it was related to one of the order, he did not confirm it was a Nahel bond spren. We have to be careful. The wording of these WoB can be seriously misleading. As for Elhokar, I agree we have seen sprens, but it does not mean they are there with the intention of bonding him. There are other reasons why sprens may want to spy on the king of the most powerful nation on Roshar on the eve of a Desolation. We shouldn't jump to conclusions hastily. Elhokar has yet to be accountable for his actions, to take responsibilities and to take direct actions to correct his own fault instead of drunkenly whine endlessly while asking Kaladin to show him how to be a hero

 

 

I'm going to revise my position on Adolin though, thanks to your analysis and interpretation, he's a proto-proto-Radiant, he's missing the final blow, he's managing his issues to such a degree that he's kind of in stasis, he would need to crack so he can start overcoming his fear of loving? (if that's the right kind of issue, I still favour him for Edgedancers)

 

Now I never considered Adolin a player I want to point out, He's to my interpretation always extremely sincere in his wish to form deeper relationships, I disagree to some degree on his inability to relate to his peers, we don't know enough of the past, but his interactions with his fellow peers seems like they may have deteriorated by and large due to the issues of him being Dalinar's Son and expected to follow his rules (the Codes) at least as we see him in tWoK he doesn't appear to have problems, and his interactions with a few of the Duelers suggest that before he got hamstrung by his father and his own sense of right and wrong, he had a type of friendship with them. S

 

The attachment theory is mine own and while I may be wrong about it, I am growing increasingly confident I may be on to something. Adolin's behavior with respect to his relationship is not normal. Anyone who fails at developing relationships and burns through courtships like he does has issues. Some people have a deep fear of commitment often link with the refusal to re-create abusive patterns from their own childhood. Some people have as strong need to remain in control of themselves and thus can't allowed to be trapped within a relationship.

 

That's not Adolin.

 

Adolin likely has fearful-avoidant (it could also be dimissive-avoidant) attachment issues. What does it means? It means he wants a relationship and intimacy, he looks for it (the numerous courtships, the positive attitude stating the next one will be the right one), but each time the relationship passes a certain threshold, the fear kicks in and he unconsciously ruins it. Masala wanted to join a war party to see the battlefield for herself? That was too close, Adolin bulked away. A union got dangerously close to make it engagement, he batted his eyes to another woman or he invited a newcomer to dinner. Even Wit states it: "I seriously do not know how you manage to get yourself into these situations." It implies Adolin is rather creative in how ends his relationships which makes it harder for him to find a pattern in his own behavior. In other words, he is screwing it up, but he is screwing it up with style.

 

The avoidant (fearful and dismissive) individuals typically end up in series of short relationships all ended by them as their partner started to get close enough to actually know them.

 

The pattern is often found in individuals who suffered neglects as children, absent parents, inadequate parents or death of a parent. 

 

His relationships with his male counter-parts follows similar behavior. He does not let anyone get close, he displays a false persona to all who can see to avoid creating close contacts. While his father's codes and rules alienated him all of his acquaintances, it is wrong to call them friends to begin with. Adolin's issues with developing relationships is not linked to Dalinar, but to himself. He even admits as much when he says how he refused to get close to anyone except Renarin and how people did not truly know him (he won't let him). That was in WoK, shortly before he decides to truly invest himself into the codes. Among the people he was with when he made this reflection was Jakamav, famous duelist. It has been happening for quite some time: Adolin never had any friends among the duelists.

 

Now of course, this is all a theory. If I am right though, he is about to repeat the pattern with Shallan. If I am right, we are going to see him starting to screw it up without intending to: his fears will kick in. The pattern will repeat itself again and again and again up until he faces his fear of losing a loved one.

 

So narratively it's more a question of does he hold together or break, now I'd say it'd be impossible for him to become a KR unless he does break and starts to overcome his issues, and that could entail dealing with the loss of his mother, remembering her, (someone who's literally been forgotten, by someone) and then overcoming the fear of attachment and starting to build healthy relationships, it might even mean accepting in some way that he's NOT able to control everything, giving up his obsessive need to protect his family.

 

There are many reasons why sprens may have stayed clear of Adolin... He is a Sharbearer and we all saw how negatively Syl reacts to them. It is likely she is not the only kind of spren who harbor a hate and a distrust towards anyone carrying s Shardblade. Also, Adolin is not just a Shardbearer, he is a Sharbearer who talks to his Blade and who has developed a special bond with it. Sure, the bond likely is one way, but it may also be enough to keep most potential sprens far away.

 

Also, if I am right about the Radiants needing to confront their fear, to hold onto their convictions in the face of adversity (which no doubt leaves cracks) more than "breaking" than Adolin indeed needs to face his fear of losing those he loves. He needs to accept he can't control all events and his sole purpose in life is not to die for Dalinar.

 

No matter how I put it, I have to say, it's all tied with love. How fitting for the carrier of an Edgedancer Blade.

 

 

'm going to briefly defend Rysn, because I considered the almost miraculous survival an indication something was up with her, but yeah I freely admit it's a bit of a stretch.

 

I am not disagreeing with you on Rysn, but I am not agreeing either. There is no significant clues around her (but then two POV is not a tremendous lot of exposure) and while she is living through a hardships, it does not mean it will lead her towards becoming a Radiant. 

Edited November 17, 2015 by maxal

[Charononus]

 

 

Renarin: His mental issue is Autism - Autism is linked to issues of learning and development  - It's harder to say exactly how he progresses as of yet, but Truthwatcher and the essense attributes Learned and Giving.

Give some indication that it'll likely be through similar means as Shallan, he also seemed to grow to fit in better with the Bridgemen, overcoming difficulties in relating to others? perhaps he'll need to become more of a scholar and accept his abilities.

 

In and of it's self,  I don't think Autism is enough to consider someone broken,  and honestly I'll be very disappointed if it is.  Now how he's treated because of it,  as he grew up,  that's another story.  But that would likely put his cracks into an as of yet unknown mental issue.

 

 

 

Jasnah: I honestly don't know, but I suspect she has some issue she's overcome to a large degree being she's proficient in Elsecalling, Her issue likely deals with the opposites of the essense attributes Wise and Careful. Perhaps something that makes/made her unreasonable, insensitive, blunt, thoughtless, inattentive? Absentminded? Losing herself in scholarship? could be something similar to Lift, ADHD, hyperfocus is part of it after-all. 

I don't have a book in front of me at the moment,  but when I recently reread WoK,  the scene with the footpads made me wonder if her issue deals with an attack,  possibly rape in the past.

[natc]

Well, Kaladin wasn't broken by depression itself. He was broken by other direct causes and the depression was pretty much always there as a hindrance. Shallan's powers also predate her known cases of denial.

With Renarin, the autism might have brought on the breaking indirectly like the epilepsy, we don't know, but it wouldn't be the actual damage itself in my opinion. It certainly a hindering mental peculiarity that might have attracted Glys though.

Radiant spren seem to get attracted to people who lack what their order stands for a lot for some reason.

[Rakei]

In and of it's self,  I don't think Autism is enough to consider someone broken,  and honestly I'll be very disappointed if it is.  Now how he's treated because of it,  as he grew up,  that's another story.  But that would likely put his cracks into an as of yet unknown mental issue.

 

 

I don't have a book in front of me at the moment,  but when I recently reread WoK,  the scene with the footpads made me wonder if her issue deals with an attack,  possibly rape in the past.

 

That's why I have usually said "broken" - because I consider it more the fact that their brains are are apparently wired in a way that's not typical. Maybe on some level it's a cognitive thing, if they feel broken it might be enough to be "broken".

 

I have to admit I've considered if Jasnahs "breaking" wasn't a lot closer to the Snappings we see in mistborn, a violent traumatic event, possibly involving men. (Not that I consider her apparent asexuality an issue that has to be dealt with)

[Slaybalj]

My take on jasnah ( mostly from the WoR prologue ) was that she is a control freak. I am still inclined to think that the final break would have been galivar's death. This cannot the be whole of it, since ivory found her 'interesting' before then, but the end of that section is heartbreaking to read.. In spite of her efforts to protect her family, Her father is dead, she watched it happen, nothing about it makes sense...and she cannot find any answers....

I also wonder if she really is as proficient in elsecalling as people assume. Sure she's (probably) bonded ivory for years, but until the end of wor, we never see her manifest a shardblade or make use of transportation. Navani indicates that she avoided assasination attempts and simply 'reappeared somewhere else', but that could have been instinctive. prior to the end of wor, i dont think shes said more than two ideals. i think one of the things shes searching desperately for is WHAT she is supposed to say to progress, but the heirocracy removed any written record of the ideals. I think she found them in shadesmar.

[Charononus]

So I found the quote that I was looking for.

Chapter 36 of WoK

Jasnah leaned back, watching the city pass. “I did not do this just to prove a point, child. I have been feeling for some time that I took advantage of His Majesty’s hospitality. He doesn’t realize how much trouble he could face for allying himself with me. Besides, men like those…” There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before.

What was done to you? Shallan wondered with horror. And who did it?

 

This is what convinces me that Jasnah has had something violent happen in the past,  and with the way rape is constantly added into the conversation,  I'm inclined to believe that that was part of it.

[Slaybalj]

Yeah...that quote does certainly imply something happened....particularly since shallan is the one who makes the observation. i consider her probably the character most capable of reading other people( as a matter of survival ). I just dont necessarily think it had to have been done to her personally... she status as the kings daughter would have provided some protection that would probably not have extended to any companions she had with her at the time. Being unable to prevent injury to another could have been just as hard... Particularly since the night of galivars assasination we see how much effort she spends trying to protect her family. ( and in galivars case, failing)

::shrug::

Honestly, i am not wedded to the idea of galivars death being the whole of it. ( and clearly, it cannot be ), but theres really soooo much we dont know about her history and probably wont get for many years.. Whatever happened, jasnah is probably the only person who knows about it and she hasnt told anyone...

[maxal she/her]

In and of it's self,  I don't think Autism is enough to consider someone broken,  and honestly I'll be very disappointed if it is.  Now how he's treated because of it,  as he grew up,  that's another story.  But that would likely put his cracks into an as of yet unknown mental issue.

 

 

I don't have a book in front of me at the moment,  but when I recently reread WoK,  the scene with the footpads made me wonder if her issue deals with an attack,  possibly rape in the past.

 

I agree about the autism. I would be disappointed if being born with a disability was the sole reason why Renarin was chosen. Having a disease may have caused him hardships to surmount in order to prove himself worthy of a bond, but it seems wrong to think it the source of his "brokenness". Not everyone who is born with a disability grow up without any self-esteem such as Renarin. My take on his issues are not so much his disability, but his obsession over becoming a soldier, a career path he seems unsuited for. He could have been born "normal" and chose to enter the Ardentia on his own: not every high ranked lighteyes become soldiers. Therefore the source of his issues seem to sprout from within himself.

 

I tend to disagree about Jasnah. Well, disagree is a strong word as we don't really know, so whatever we advance is pure speculation. However, I somehow have issues with thinking her past hides horrible skeletons such as rape. I am growing incredibly disturbed we seem to have enter a race into determining the worst possible tragedies for each proto-knight.. Aren't we building up too much on Kaladin's backstory? I sincerely doubt the 1000 former knights Radiant, back in the days before the Recreance were all raped, abused, tortured, enslaved, famished and low in self-esteem....... It seems unlikely as if the only requisite to become a knight was to have a horrible past, when it is not quite it. You have to be able to maintain the oath while allowing the bond to take place: being raped or tortured is not a requisite.

 

I thus doubt there is much in Jasnah's past other than her quest as a scholar to prove Vorinism wrong which is more than sufficient to create enough strain to help a Nahel bond. I could be wrong, but I have massive issues into thinking Jasnah chose her life path because she was raped or disabused by men. I prefer to have her simply make that choice, for herself, for her belief. It also makes her a much more interesting character.