[Theory] Neuroatypical issues and the Nahel bond

[maxal]

Where the envisagers went wrong (most wrong, they were all obviously a bit bonkers IMO) is that they interpreted 'broken' purely physically, and not spiritually (or cognitively).

 

I don't think spren are going to choose someone simply because they are broken either. But it does seem to be one of the prerequisites.

The spren chooses someone who exhibits conviction, if you live an easy life without anything to test those convictions, you might as well not have them at all. Being beaten is (probably) not one of the conditions, but the way you handle being beaten might be.

 

Neuroatypical might not have been the best choice of words, but you must admit that all Radiants and Proto-Radiants so far have exhibited some form of behaviour that in this world would most likely qualify you for therapy.

 

 

As to Lift's proposed condition in the OP: ADHD, isn't it more likely she has abandonment issues? 

 

I agree with your statements. Part of my disagreement tend to be towards the level of brokenness required as I tend to believe someone too heavily scarred would be useless as a Radiant. I also believe the term "broken" is used to all conditions and has become the prime requirement to rout out potential Radiants, which I strongly disagrees with. I also disagree in trying to invent horrible past to known characters such as to justify one's interpretation of the term "broken".

 

I however agree convictions without having lived enough hardships to cement them are not worth much. I agree sprens would look for individuals having strong enough convictions to carry them out despite hostilities, but I disagree they are looking solely for "neuroatypical" individuals. I also disagree these hostilities have to be as disastrous as Kaladin. I believe simply holding onto your beliefs, alone, against a convinced crowd is enough to create cracks (Jasnah, Renarin) and not additional physical trauma such as rape, abuse or murder are needed.

 

I also have come to believe that while there is a lower threshold in terms of age to become a KR (Brandon stated Shallan was on the low end), there also is a threshold in terms of brokenness. I believe that threshold is Kaladin. He barely made it in WoR: he had to kill Syl to learn a lesson, which I doubt is the natural progression for a KR. Similarly, Shallan's young age made her regress immensely, to the point of nearly killing Pattern, after her mother's death. While there is no assurance older Shallan would have dealt with events better, she would have likely not end up being used by her father for years. I thus think it is not a hazard these two nearly destroyed their bond: they are on the boundary.

 

Neuroatypical sure is not the right word as most known Radiants don't qualify as such. Even Kaladin would not necessarily be considered neuroatypical as depression is not a illness typically classified under this flag, but we are talking semantics here. All Radiants have had... problems I would say, but our sample is so horribly small drawing large scale conclusion based on it is erroneous to the start.

 

As for Lift, I sincerely believe we do not know enough to start psychoanalyzing her. Calling her ADHD seems more as an attempt to validate a theory all Radiants need to have a known classified disability. I don't believe we have enough arguments for it. She likely has attachment issues due to being abandoned, but again, bad parenting resulting in loss of attachment do not always result in long-term issues. We truly don't know enough about her to make a theory. For instance, I have not seen her enough with people to detect if she has a fear of attachment, a lingering anxiety towards proximity to people, a "I don't need you" kind of attitude. I am not saying it isn't there, I am saying we have not seen it yet.

 

 

As I'm understanding it from the text itself, Kaladin yells at Syl that he is broken (and therefore not at all capable of being a knight) to which she responds - They all were, silly

 

I typically take what Syl says with a grain of salt. They were broken, but define "broken".

 

Another, we have two people who're going to give a lecture, they're your average students, but one has social anxiety and a near debilitating stage fright. The both manage to give the lecture, but it's more impressive that the person with social anxiety and debilitating stage fright did it.

 

Yes, it is more impressive in this example, but your average student is likely struggling with something else you aren't seeing. Everyone has struggles. In this example, the social anxiety student is facing a hardship, but in other circumstances, it will be your average student. 

 

 

On Lift, I went with what I got from the little we saw of her, she could have abandonment issues on top of everything else, she might turn out to have a very different past than the little we've seen, she could have trust issues which don't specifically have to do with abandonment, she implies she's had a period of emotionlessness (she recognizes it in Darkness' eyes)

 

That's the one most significant clue we have for Lift. She tried no to care, to be emotionless, to ignore people, but she couldn't. Edgedancers are meant to be the "Good Samaritans" (dixit Brandon, there's a WoB on this) of the KR. In essence, they didn't necessarily dedicate their life to help people, but they would selflessly help those in need stumbling along their way without asking or expecting anything in return. Lift found out she could not ignore people. What it means? I have yet to figure it out. We have only one POV work from... this is hard.

 

Edit: To help with the discussion, I found an old WoB on Theoryland:

 

• He talked about the link between his magic systems. One of the core principles is 'investing'. In a lot of his systems people are through some mechanism invested with magic powers. In Elantris through the Shaod, In Mistborn it's genetic, in The Way of Kings it depends on what someone has done. 

 

It confirms what I have more or less been saying: surgebinding is not linked to genetic. It is not linked to being "neurotypical" or "neuroatypical" as these characteristic are independent of an individual's behavior and do exhibit a genetic component. It is an individual's actions which matters, what some one has done, more or less the agency I mentioned a few posts earlier.

 

I thus maintain my point: being neuroatypical, disabled, depressed or having repressed memories have nothing to do with it. However, striving to protect people when all ends are going to damnation has everything to do with it.

 

Mistborn reference or link also are irrelevant: both magic system are not granted on the same basis.

 

I hope this helps.

Edited November 23, 2015 by maxal

[Rakei]

Thankfully we're dealing with literary theory and thus unless there is internal incoherence the theory remains valid, though you may disagree that's the the beauty and conundrum of subjective interpretation.

 

I see nothing in the WoB that rejects the notion that the Knights Radiant could well all be burden with mental issues, so far all the ones we know enough off exhibit some profound issue or has been speculated about. It simply states it's doing that's important, but like I said you might have hundreds of people on Roshar who're as focus as Kaladin on protecting and are very honourable, but he's the one who bonded with a Spren.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Also I tend to take apocrypha with grains of salt because things change, sometimes there are patterns the writer doesn't notice etc.

[Charononus]

 

I agree with your statements. Part of my disagreement tend to be towards the level of brokenness required as I tend to believe someone too heavily scarred would be useless as a Radiant. I also believe the term "broken" is used to all conditions and has become the prime requirement to rout out potential Radiants, which I strongly disagrees with. I also disagree in trying to invent horrible past to known characters such as to justify one's interpretation of the term "broken".

 

I however agree convictions without having lived enough hardships to cement them are not worth much. I agree sprens would look for individuals having strong enough convictions to carry them out despite hostilities, but I disagree they are looking solely for "neuroatypical" individuals. I also disagree these hostilities have to be as disastrous as Kaladin. I believe simply holding onto your beliefs, alone, against a convinced crowd is enough to create cracks (Jasnah, Renarin) and not additional physical trauma such as rape, abuse or murder are needed.

 

I also have come to believe that while there is a lower threshold in terms of age to become a KR (Brandon stated Shallan was on the low end), there also is a threshold in terms of brokenness. I believe that threshold is Kaladin. He barely made it in WoR: he had to kill Syl to learn a lesson, which I doubt is the natural progression for a KR. Similarly, Shallan's young age made her regress immensely, to the point of nearly killing Pattern, after her mother's death. While there is no assurance older Shallan would have dealt with events better, she would have likely not end up being used by her father for years. I thus think it is not a hazard these two nearly destroyed their bond: they are on the boundary.

 

Neuroatypical sure is not the right word as most known Radiants don't qualify as such. Even Kaladin would not necessarily be considered neuroatypical as depression is not a illness typically classified under this flag, but we are talking semantics here. All Radiants have had... problems I would say, but our sample is so horribly small drawing large scale conclusion based on it is erroneous to the start.

 

As for Lift, I sincerely believe we do not know enough to start psychoanalyzing her. Calling her ADHD seems more as an attempt to validate a theory all Radiants need to have a known classified disability. I don't believe we have enough arguments for it. She likely has attachment issues due to being abandoned, but again, bad parenting resulting in loss of attachment do not always result in long-term issues. We truly don't know enough about her to make a theory. For instance, I have not seen her enough with people to detect if she has a fear of attachment, a lingering anxiety towards proximity to people, a "I don't need you" kind of attitude. I am not saying it isn't there, I am saying we have not seen it yet.

 

 

 

I typically take what Syl says with a grain of salt. They were broken, but define "broken".

 

 

Yes, it is more impressive in this example, but your average student is likely struggling with something else you aren't seeing. Everyone has struggles. In this example, the social anxiety student is facing a hardship, but in other circumstances, it will be your average student. 

 

 

 

That's the one most significant clue we have for Lift. She tried no to care, to be emotionless, to ignore people, but she couldn't. Edgedancers are meant to be the "Good Samaritans" (dixit Brandon, there's a WoB on this) of the KR. In essence, they didn't necessarily dedicate their life to help people, but they would selflessly help those in need stumbling along their way without asking or expecting anything in return. Lift found out she could not ignore people. What it means? I have yet to figure it out. We have only one POV work from... this is hard.

 

Edit: To help with the discussion, I found an old WoB on Theoryland:

 

• He talked about the link between his magic systems. One of the core principles is 'investing'. In a lot of his systems people are through some mechanism invested with magic powers. In Elantris through the Shaod, In Mistborn it's genetic, in The Way of Kings it depends on what someone has done. 

 

It confirms what I have more or less been saying: surgebinding is not linked to genetic. It is not linked to being "neurotypical" or "neuroatypical" as these characteristic are independent of an individual's behavior and do exhibit a genetic component. It is an individual's actions which matters, what some one has done, more or less the agency I mentioned a few posts earlier.

 

I thus maintain my point: being neuroatypical, disabled, depressed or having repressed memories have nothing to do with it. However, striving to protect people when all ends are going to damnation has everything to do with it.

 

Mistborn reference or link also are irrelevant: both magic system are not granted on the same basis.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Here's my problem.  Why do you assume someone that at one point was broken,  that had something horrible happen to them loses all agency and can do nothing more to ever help themselves or anyone else?  Kaladin and Shallan are our best examples for the moment.  Both of them were horrible broken.  Yet as they move thru their story,  the thing that seems to advance them as radiants is learning how to heal from it.  Humans don't break like a piece of pottery.  We break,  but we also heal and hopefully learn.  Your theory seems to me to reject that.

 

 

[maxal]

 

Thankfully we're dealing with literary theory and thus unless there is internal incoherence the theory remains valid, though you may disagree that's the the beauty and conundrum of subjective interpretation.

 

I see nothing in the WoB that rejects the notion that the Knights Radiant could well all be burden with mental issues, so far all the ones we know enough off exhibit some profound issue or has been speculated about. It simply states it's doing that's important, but like I said you might have hundreds of people on Roshar who're as focus as Kaladin on protecting and are very honourable, but he's the one who bonded with a Spren.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Also I tend to take apocrypha with grains of salt because things change, sometimes there are patterns the writer doesn't notice etc.

 

I believe we may be misunderstanding ourselves. Allow me to rephrase my thoughts.

 

1) I never stated Radiant cannot be burdened by mental illness: it is obvious some are.

 

2) I have however disagreed with the notion having a mental illness is a REQUIREMENT to become a Radiant.

 

Examples at hand refute this theory. Characters such as Jasnah, Lift, Dalinar do not have a known mental illness. Indulging in alcohol during one feast is not being alcoholic. We are building up too much out of too little clues. There is absolutely no indications Jasnah has any mental illness except the one individuals are trying to invent her. There is no solid evidence for Lift as well. However, lack of evidence means it can swing both ways. So I suggest to drop these characters all together.

 

The prime example disapproving the theory is Shallan. Why? Because her known mental illness is NOT the reason why she was chosen to be made Radiant. She was a Radiant before she started suppressing her memories. Any theories as to what may have happened before her mother's death are pure speculations. There is no indication she was suppressing memories before. 

 

3) In the advent this is not enough to disapprove the theory, I quoted Brandon who confirmed surgebinding does not have any genetic component. Now you may argue this does not disapprove your theory, but you have to conceded most mental illness are genetic. Therefore, IF harboring a mental illness or another IS a requirement to become a KR, then it IS genetic as autism, for instance, IS genetic. Depression has a genetic component. ADHD is highly genetic. Even alcoholism is genetic. 

 

These illness, disabilities all are genetic. Therefore, I have to conclude surgebinding cannot be linked to the presence of a mental illness as it would imply it having a genetic component. Brandon words are rather clear, what matter is what someone does, not how someone was born. It seems rather obvious "neurotypical" individuals can do worthy actions deserving a Nahel bond. They can meet hardships to prove their conviction without developing a known mental illness as what matters is their actions, just their actions, not their mental condition.

 

I agree there is a pattern, but I trust Brandon words when he says it isn't genetic. Most of the argumentation also heavily relies on strong speculation on characters we know next to nothing of.

 

Yes Kaladin is the one who bonded Syl. What it because he was the only candidate? I don't believe so. I believe he bonded Syl because he was the first one she found. There used to be thousand of Windrunners: we are bound to meet more in the next books.

 

I also believe Kaladin is an experiment which nearly failed because he was too damaged, just as I believe Shallan is an experiment which nearly failed because she was too young.

 

 

Here's my problem.  Why do you assume someone that at one point was broken,  that had something horrible happen to them loses all agency and can do nothing more to ever help themselves or anyone else?  Kaladin and Shallan are our best examples for the moment.  Both of them were horrible broken.  Yet as they move thru their story,  the thing that seems to advance them as radiants is learning how to heal from it.  Humans don't break like a piece of pottery.  We break,  but we also heal and hopefully learn.  Your theory seems to me to reject that.

 

Because you are wrongly quoting me. Allow me to explain myself further. 

 

I did not say heavily broken individuals such as Kaladin and Shallan have lost all agencies, I meant Jasnah choosing a life of celibacy because she was raped would rob her of the agency I believe she has. In the case of Kaladin and Shallan, being broken ultimately did not change their life choices, they stayed true to who they were. My main reason for bringing in the "agency" argument was to dispute the general idea Jasnah has been abused or raped. Why? Because Jasnah is Jasnah because she chose the life of scholar, because she dedicated herself to find the truth. This IS what defines her the most. However, if those choices end up being made because circumstances forces her down this path, then it lessen them. Why? Because they then become her SECOND choice, not the first.

 

I do not believe a Radiant can be worthy if the greatest expression of their Radiancy happens to be their true self. A choice cannot be the expression of your true self if you only make it because all other options suddenly close themselves due to a trauma. Look at Renarin. He has plenty of options other than learning to become a soldier, but he won't give it up. He wants to learn this skill.

 

Essentially, I believe you are wrongly quoting in stating I said "all broken Radiants lost all agency". I never dispute the fact many Radiants were broken. I dispute the general tendency to invent past trauma to all known Radiants to justify a generalized idea they need to be broken in the most horrific manner. This tendency has created theories such as Jasnah was raped or Lift has ADHD, which aren't supported by canon and are pure speculation simply born out of individualistic expectations all Radiants need to be carbon copy of Kaladin. By carbon copy, I mean a past who is equally terrible. 

 

My whole point in the discussion is Radiants do not need to be broken down as heavily as Kaladin. They need to have lived hardships, but hardships and traumas are not the same thing.

 

I also heavily disagree with the notion Radiant NEED to have a mental illness. See above.

[Rakei]

The prime example disapproving the theory is Shallan. Why? Because her known mental illness is NOT the reason why she was chosen to be made Radiant. She was a Radiant before she started suppressing her memories. Any theories as to what may have happened before her mother's death are pure speculations. There is no indication she was suppressing memories before. 

 

3) In the advent this is not enough to disapprove the theory, I quoted Brandon who confirmed surgebinding does not have any genetic component. Now you may argue this does not disapprove your theory, but you have to conceded most mental illness are genetic. Therefore, IF harboring a mental illness or another IS a requirement to become a KR, then it IS genetic as autism, for instance, IS genetic. Depression has a genetic component. ADHD is highly genetic. Even alcoholism is genetic. 

 

These illness, disabilities all are genetic. Therefore, I have to conclude surgebinding cannot be linked to the presence of a mental illness as it would imply it having a genetic component. Brandon words are rather clear, what matter is what someone does, not how someone was born. It seems rather obvious "neurotypical" individuals can do worthy actions deserving a Nahel bond. They can meet hardships to prove their conviction without developing a known mental illness as what matters is their actions, just their actions, not their mental condition.

 

I agree there is a pattern, but I trust Brandon words when he says it isn't genetic. Most of the argumentation also heavily relies on strong speculation on characters we know next to nothing of.

 

 

 

I completely disagree on Shallan, multiple times Shallan speaks of many repressed memories, she talks about having many locked boxes, when pattern confronts her to be open about her memories he speaks directly about how it was the Lies that drew him to her, her repressing memories being the lies, the lies of the life she was living at that time.

You may disagree but that's how I'm interpreting this.

 

It wasn't the she had pattern killed her mother and then started repressing memories, otherwise Pattern saying he was drawn to her lies (in the context of the massive memory of killing her mother) makes very little sense.

 

Apocrypha again, see there is nothing in the text itself, the work so to speak, that invalidates what I've proposed, not as I've interpret it.

I subscribe to the idea of Barthes - the author is "dead", apocrypha is all well and good but it's coherence within in the work that matters not the intent of the author.

[maxal]

I completely disagree on Shallan, multiple times Shallan speaks of many repressed memories, she talks about having many locked boxes, when pattern confronts her to be open about her memories he speaks directly about how it was the Lies that drew him to her, her repressing memories being the lies, the lies of the life she was living at that time.

You may disagree but that's how I'm interpreting this.

 

It wasn't the she had pattern killed her mother and then started repressing memories, otherwise Pattern saying he was drawn to her lies (in the context of the massive memory of killing her mother) makes very little sense.

 

Apocrypha again, see there is nothing in the text itself, the work so to speak, that invalidates what I've proposed, not as I've interpret it.

I subscribe to the idea of Barthes - the author is "dead", apocrypha is all well and good but it's coherence within in the work that matters not the intent of the author.

 

About Shallan, I don't disagree, I just don't agree. I personally think I do not possess enough facts to stipulate how Shallan's life may have been prior to her bonding Pattern. He sad he was attracted to her ability to create strong lies, which do not require repressed memories to happen. It is possible she has been "broken" (I hate this term) since childhood, but right now it is nothing more than a speculation.

 

But aren't you agreeing mental illness are genetic? They are, I mean this is a fact of life unless Brandon decided to design a species of human where such heredity does not exist but it would sincerely doubt he would be purposefully misleading. Therefore, if mental illness are genetic, then they can't be a requirement to surgebinding as it would mean surgebinding IS genetic. It isn't. Confirmed by the author. 

 

There also isn't any conclusive evidence many of the known Radiants have mental illnesses. You argument stands on the premises there aren't any evidence they don't, but it is rather thin. However, since you aren't provided with a clear and defined example of an individual without anything you would qualify as a "mental illness" (whatever that is supposed to enclose, though I severely disagree Jasnah qualifies as being mentally ill, but let's skip it due to a lack of evidences), you remain convinced of the theory makes sense.

 

However, I believe Brandon's words disapproves it by disclaiming there is no genetic involved in who becomes a Radiant. The work remains coherent even if your theory is wrong. Simply because two Radiants exhibits some mental illness does not mean all Radiants do. Also, simply because an individual seems mentally ill does not mean they are candidate for becoming Radiants as what matters is "what they have done", not the state of their brain.

[Charononus]

 

 

Because you are wrongly quoting me. Allow me to explain myself further. 

 

I did not say heavily broken individuals such as Kaladin and Shallan have lost all agencies, I meant Jasnah choosing a life of celibacy because she was raped would rob her of the agency I believe she has. In the case of Kaladin and Shallan, being broken ultimately did not change their life choices, they stayed true to who they were. My main reason for bringing in the "agency" argument was to dispute the general idea Jasnah has been abused or raped. Why? Because Jasnah is Jasnah because she chose the life of scholar, because she dedicated herself to find the truth. This IS what defines her the most. However, if those choices end up being made because circumstances forces her down this path, then it lessen them. Why? Because they then become her SECOND choice, not the first.

 

I do not believe a Radiant can be worthy if the greatest expression of their Radiancy happens to be their true self. A choice cannot be the expression of your true self if you only make it because all other options suddenly close themselves due to a trauma. Look at Renarin. He has plenty of options other than learning to become a soldier, but he won't give it up. He wants to learn this skill.

 

Essentially, I believe you are wrongly quoting in stating I said "all broken Radiants lost all agency". I never dispute the fact many Radiants were broken. I dispute the general tendency to invent past trauma to all known Radiants to justify a generalized idea they need to be broken in the most horrific manner. This tendency has created theories such as Jasnah was raped or Lift has ADHD, which aren't supported by canon and are pure speculation simply born out of individualistic expectations all Radiants need to be carbon copy of Kaladin. By carbon copy, I mean a past who is equally terrible. 

 

My whole point in the discussion is Radiants do not need to be broken down as heavily as Kaladin. They need to have lived hardships, but hardships and traumas are not the same thing.

 

I also heavily disagree with the notion Radiant NEED to have a mental illness. See above.

 

Ok I think that this is where we have the problem then.  For one I do believe that something bad happened to Jasnah based on chapter 36 of WoK where rape is mentioned repeated and then this section happens.

Jasnah leaned back, watching the city pass. “I did not do this just to prove a point, child. I have been feeling for some time that I took advantage of His Majesty’s hospitality. He doesn’t realize how much trouble he could face for allying himself with me. Besides, men like those…” There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before.

What was done to you? Shallan wondered with horror. And who did it?

Now is this confirmed,  no.  However I trust Shallan's reading of people,  and while it may not have been rape it was something "bad".  Now where I think the problem is,  is that you make the assumption that this event,  if it happened is the reason for all of Jasnah's life choices.  No other possibility exists to you,  and that ignores a great deal of how resilient people really are.  Would it have hurt Jasnah,  absolutely.  Would the term broken apply to her,  absolutely.  Does it mean that all of her life choices have been made for this and could not have been for any other reason,  no,  absolutely not.

 

 

But aren't you agreeing mental illness are genetic? They are, I mean this is a fact of life unless Brandon decided to design a species of human where such heredity does not exist but it would sincerely doubt he would be purposefully misleading. Therefore, if mental illness are genetic, then they can't be a requirement to surgebinding as it would mean surgebinding IS genetic. It isn't. Confirmed by the author. 

 

 

As far as this goes,  I just want to toss in some of what I know.  Autism,  has at least some genetic components,  but it isn't genetics alone.  Schizophrenia has at least some links to a parasite,  and many others are thought to have epigenetic components,  which means that the the traits are turned on by things in the environment,  not from pure heredity.  To common language usage,  this means that these traits are not genetic,  even though dna plays a factor.  

Now having said that.  I don't think the mental condition is the reason for the bond,  but something that may facilitate experiences that lead to the creation of a bond (Renarin) or be consequences of the experiences (Kaladin and Shallan).  

The only condition that can't be explained by this idea is Kaladin's seasonal affective disorder.  Which to me was just part of flushing out Kaladin,  making him a whole person in the novel rather than someone that was flatter.  

[maxal]

 

Ok I think that this is where we have the problem then.  For one I do believe that something bad happened to Jasnah based on chapter 36 of WoK where rape is mentioned repeated and then this section happens.

 

It does not need to have happen to her specifically... She had a ward, once and it ended badly.

 

 

Now is this confirmed,  no.  However I trust Shallan's reading of people,  and while it may not have been rape it was something "bad".  Now where I think the problem is,  is that you make the assumption that this event,  if it happened is the reason for all of Jasnah's life choices.  No other possibility exists to you,  and that ignores a great deal of how resilient people really are.  Would it have hurt Jasnah,  absolutely.  Would the term broken apply to her,  absolutely.  Does it mean that all of her life choices have been made for this and could not have been for any other reason,  no,  absolutely not.

 

The problem I have is if this event turns out being rape, for instance, then how do you justify in a plausible way it hasn't influenced her life choice? It goes back to the discussion as whether or not Jasnah should be homosexual. I don't want her to be because I fear it would become the reason she chose scholarship over married life.

 

All in all, I can summarized my thoughts by the following. I believe Jasnah can't have the required conviction to become a Radiant unless her most decisive actions, choosing the life of celibate scholar hunting for the truth despite all opposition, were not the consequences of a past trauma. The trauma has to be the hardship she overcome, if trauma there is, not the reason she ended up choosing certain paths. It could be Brandon can write the rape story arc and completely uncorrelate it from Jasnah life's choices, but it would be a dangerous slope to slide down from.

 

 

As far as this goes,  I just want to toss in some of what I know.  Autism,  has at least some genetic components,  but it isn't genetics alone.  Schizophrenia has at least some links to a parasite,  and many others are thought to have epigenetic components,  which means that the the traits are turned on by things in the environment,  not from pure heredity.  To common language usage,  this means that these traits are not genetic,  even though dna plays a factor.  

Now having said that.  I don't think the mental condition is the reason for the bond,  but something that may facilitate experiences that lead to the creation of a bond (Renarin) or be consequences of the experiences (Kaladin and Shallan).  

The only condition that can't be explained by this idea is Kaladin's seasonal affective disorder.  Which to me was just part of flushing out Kaladin,  making him a whole person in the novel rather than someone that was flatter.  

 

I am no way an expert, but my impression are most neuroatypical afflictions share a genetic component. For instance, it is rather common to see several siblings within a same family with similar-like issues such as autism and ADHD. On my parental forums, parents with one disabled children often have a second and a third one. The affliction can fluctuate, but it remains basically the same combo. I also recall reading there was a genetic component to autism, though it is true it isn't the only one. However being autistic yourself increases the chance your children would be somewhere on the spectrum as well. For my point-of-vue if being autistic is a requirement (for instance) to become a KR, then it shares a genetic component as children of a knight would have higher chances to become knights purely based on their birth which seems to contradicts Brandon's words actions are what matters most.

 

I agree with you mental conditions may facilitate the experience by naturally creating hardships for the individual while someone born without those would need more stringent conditions to prove his convictions are strong enough.

 

Kaladin's seasonal disorder does not need to be tied to his Radianhood. I agree it seems more of a quirk.

[Charononus]

 

 

The problem I have is if this event turns out being rape, for instance, then how do you justify in a plausible way it hasn't influenced her life choice? It goes back to the discussion as whether or not Jasnah should be homosexual. I don't want her to be because I fear it would become the reason she chose scholarship over married life.

 

All in all, I can summarized my thoughts by the following. I believe Jasnah can't have the required conviction to become a Radiant unless her most decisive actions, choosing the life of celibate scholar hunting for the truth despite all opposition, were not the consequences of a past trauma. The trauma has to be the hardship she overcome, if trauma there is, not the reason she ended up choosing certain paths. It could be Brandon can write the rape story arc and completely uncorrelate it from Jasnah life's choices, but it would be a dangerous slope to slide down from.

 

 

There's an easy explanation for the choice.  It could have been made before.

[maxal]

There's an easy explanation for the choice.  It could have been made before.

 

I agree it can.

 

Though I would still personally prefer if it weren't rape. It is too cliche to have the single by choice women being raped by men. However, I am now dwelling in the realm of personal preferences. 

 

I guess the conclusion is I sincerely believe Radiants are who they are because they chose to, despite whatever adversity they may have faced. This adversity can take various forms and is not restricted to gory events. All in all, their hardships made them stronger, but they aren't the reason they chose a given path.

[DSC01]

See, I think you have Jasnah's character wrong. You see the face that she shows to the world as her triumph over adversity, but I really don't think that is so. She is using her public persona as a shield to hide her insecurity from the world. I think that she is quite some way from achieving the kind of success in the face of opposition that you believe she already has. I don't necessarily think that she was raped, (I too would prefer that it is not that) but I do believe that something bad happened to her in her past. and her self-imposed role as a celibate scholar is a shield she uses against the world, in reaction to her past. 

 

Now, I'm not saying that she needs a man to be happy. However, I don't think that she is necessarily asexual (for one thing, that is exceedingly rare; for another, Brandon has already said that the Parshendi are his way to explore asexuality, and I find it unlikely that he would double up something that unusual in one story). I think that she has very good reasons to not be interested in the opposite sex because of the ridiculous gender roles in their society, but she has shown before that she is willing to buck social expectations. She could probably find a man willing to do the same. The reason she won't consider romance is that she refuses to be vulnerable, not because it is a self-empowered choice. That doesn't mean that I want to see her in a romantic entanglement, but her character needs to be able to entertain the possibility, or at least to be willing to get close to others in a non-romantic way.

 

I really think you should take a closer look at how slowly she has progressed as a Radiant. I somehow missed the Oathbringer excerpt, when it was released about a year ago, that depicts Jasnah in Shadesmar, immediately after escaping from the ship where the Ghostbloods had stabbed her (http://www.tor.com/2014/08/06/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance/), but I just read it today. I don't want to talk too much about something that is not yet published, especially just a first draft, but the interaction between her and Ivory made me think that their bond is nowhere near as tight as it should be.

[Charononus]

See, I think you have Jasnah's character wrong. You see the face that she shows to the world as her triumph over adversity, but I really don't think that is so. She is using her public persona as a shield to hide her insecurity from the world. I think that she is quite some way from achieving the kind of success in the face of opposition that you believe she already has. I don't necessarily think that she was raped, (I too would prefer that it is not that) but I do believe that something bad happened to her in her past. and her self-imposed role as a celibate scholar is a shield she uses against the world, in reaction to her past. 

 

Now, I'm not saying that she needs a man to be happy. However, I don't think that she is necessarily asexual (for one thing, that is exceedingly rare; for another, Brandon has already said that the Parshendi are his way to explore asexuality, and I find it unlikely that he would double up something that unusual in one story). I think that she has very good reasons to not be interested in the opposite sex because of the ridiculous gender roles in their society, but she has shown before that she is willing to buck social expectations. She could probably find a man willing to do the same. The reason she won't consider romance is that she refuses to be vulnerable, not because it is a self-empowered choice. That doesn't mean that I want to see her in a romantic entanglement, but her character needs to be able to entertain the possibility, or at least to be willing to get close to others in a non-romantic way.

 

I really think you should take a closer look at how slowly she has progressed as a Radiant. I somehow missed the Oathbringer excerpt, when it was released about a year ago, that depicts Jasnah in Shadesmar, immediately after escaping from the ship where the Ghostbloods had stabbed her (http://www.tor.com/2014/08/06/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance/), but I just read it today. I don't want to talk too much about something that is not yet published, especially just a first draft, but the interaction between her and Ivory made me think that their bond is nowhere near as tight as it should be.

Interesting.  Thanks for posting that.  I hadn't seen that before,  I agree with you that Jasnah doesn't seem as far along at that point as Kaladin or Shallan currently are.  She seems very unfamiliar with all of what she can do with her surges,  in fact she seems to just be using part of the transportation surge for the first time possibly.

[DSC01]

That, and Ivory's speech patterns struck me as very odd. Obviously, it could just be the type of spren he is and not be related to the bond at all. I doubt that this is so because it reminds me of how Pattern used to speak, before his continued bond with Shallan allowed him to advance past that.

EDIT: Added spoiler tags, since I commented on an excerpt that hasn't been published yet.

Edited November 25, 2015 by DSC01

[maxal]

 

See, I think you have Jasnah's character wrong. You see the face that she shows to the world as her triumph over adversity, but I really don't think that is so. She is using her public persona as a shield to hide her insecurity from the world. I think that she is quite some way from achieving the kind of success in the face of opposition that you believe she already has. I don't necessarily think that she was raped, (I too would prefer that it is not that) but I do believe that something bad happened to her in her past. and her self-imposed role as a celibate scholar is a shield she uses against the world, in reaction to her past. 

 

I did not say that. I did not say she was revealing in her triumph, bathing in it for all to see. I never said that. I merely say I sincerely believe she chose not to marry for her own reasons and not as a second choice. I personally believe she genuinely saw marriage as contriving, as an endless string of concessions in which the woman often ends up the loser. It is basically what she tells Shallan when she broaches the subject of the casual. She would not have had to looked very far to find convincing examples: her own mother lived an unhappy life. 

 

I don't know what kind of skeletons she may or may not be hiding, her true motivations are practically impossible to grasp without a POV. However I believe being a scholar is who she is, just as being a soldier geared towards protection is what Kaladin is. 

 

My take on her past is disillusion towards the traditional gender roles and I think something may have happened to her first ward... something who may have put her at odds against the Ardentia, something to fuel her quest for the truth, but ultimately, before that, she still was a scholar.

 

 

See, I think you have Jasnah's character wrong. You see the face that she shows to the world as her triumph over adversity, but I really don't think that is so. Now, I'm not saying that she needs a man to be happy. However, I don't think that she is necessarily asexual (for one thing, that is exceedingly rare; for another, Brandon has already said that the Parshendi are his way to explore asexuality, and I find it unlikely that he would double up something that unusual in one story). I think that she has very good reasons to not be interested in the opposite sex because of the ridiculous gender roles in their society, but she has shown before that she is willing to buck social expectations. She could probably find a man willing to do the same. The reason she won't consider romance is that she refuses to be vulnerable, not because it is a self-empowered choice. That doesn't mean that I want to see her in a romantic entanglement, but her character needs to be able to entertain the possibility, or at least to be willing to get close to others in a non-romantic way.

 

There are plenty of real life women who chooses to live in celibacy without being asexual. Not wanting to marry is not a disease nor a spectrum: some people are just not interested which does not mean they are not willing for the occasional romance. Jasnah however evolves in a world where the only romance you can get is through marriage, which makes her incapable of sharing anything intimate with a man (or whatever) without the solid constraint of wedding. I should also mention Alethi, on the whole, do not seem to marry out of love, but necessity or political advantages. In that optic, by choosing not to marry, she may not have forsake romance all together as her real life examples likely told us she was not getting it anyway.

 

For the record, I don't believe Jasnah is asexual and I don't believe her life choices imply she necessarily is. Only future will tell. I haven't enough of her interactions with people from her own POV to grasp whatever issues she may with others. I only read she was cold, detached and she did not want another ward, which explains why she literally chased every other candidate away.

 

I really think you should take a closer look at how slowly she has progressed as a Radiant. I somehow missed the Oathbringer excerpt, when it was released about a year ago, that depicts Jasnah in Shadesmar, immediately after escaping from the ship where the Ghostbloods had stabbed her (http://www.tor.com/2014/08/06/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance/), but I just read it today. I don't want to talk too much about something that is not yet published, especially just a first draft, but the interaction between her and Ivory made me think that their bond is nowhere near as tight as it should be.

 

We do not know what is the regular speed of progression for a Radiant. The only examples we have are Shallan and Kaladin. Both progressed even slower than Jasnah as Jasnah could utilize surges a long time before they even comprehend what was happening. She may not have said more oaths and she does seem to struggle with her surges, but my personal impression is Transformation and Transportation are extremely difficult to master, unlike Adhesion and Gravitation who are easier and intuitive. 

 

As for her bond, Brandon said all sprens bond were different. Ivory may be less helpful than Syl or Pattern just as many suspects Glys is not particularly helpful towards Renarin. 

 

The problem with Jasnah is we are literally fishing among a rather restricted set of clues and nothing more than 2 complete POV and one partial one. It is not a lot.

 

It could be as you say, but it could also not be.

[DSC01]

Well, technically, Shallan progressed slowest of all, since all development halted when she was in denial. However, as soon as Pattern showed back up, she started to progress very quickly. As for Kaladin, he was years away from his first encounter with Syl when Jasnah started to bind Ivory. I know that we don't have a lot of information to go on right now, but it really does seem to me that Jasnah's progress has been fairly slow. If this is so, then the only thing standing in her way must be her own issues.

[maxal]

Well, technically, Shallan progressed slowest of all, since all development halted when she was in denial. However, as soon as Pattern showed back up, she started to progress very quickly. As for Kaladin, he was years away from his first encounter with Syl when Jasnah started to bind Ivory. I know that we don't have a lot of information to go on right now, but it really does seem to me that Jasnah's progress has been fairly slow. If this is so, then the only thing standing in her way must be her own issues.

 

My take on Shallan is she is relearning what she once knew. As for Kaladin, Syl mentions how she found him when he was a squad leader within Amaram's army. According to the timeline, that is not very long after Jasnah's first encounter with Ivory, 2-3 years to the most. He then spend 4 years practically not evolving, worst not even being aware Syl was there. It is only when his life took a turn for the worst he started to interact with her. I'd say Kaladin's early progression was very slow, but it was forced to accelerate due to circumstances consistently (and conveniently) putting into situations where he was literally forced to speak more oaths. Without those incentive, his progression would have likely been much slower. 

 

Jasnah, I suspect, progressed in appearance slowly for several reasons not related to personal issues:

 

1) Her surges are much more difficult to grasp, to comprehend and to utilize which likely forced her to spend quite a deal of time simply studying them. She got quite adept at Transformation, but advice Shallan not to try it without her guidance as it is both dangerous and hard. Shallan, for all her prowess with Illumination, is incapable of using Transformation.

 

2) Her personality as a scholar likely made her approach the issue in a detailed, precise way, as she was conducting an experiment. Caution was likely the norm, for her, which made her take baby steps, advancing slowly, but surely.

 

3) Her life is relatively pampered. Both Shallan and Kaladin are seen to progress rapidly when events forced them to: conflicts, battles, war, torture, etc. Jasnah likely didn't have the same occasion, her life being on the whole easier. Yes, she was dodging assassins, but she may not have find herself in a harsh enough predicament to kick-start her powers faster.

 

There could be others, as you and others say: her own issues. I am willing to keep on RAFO. I fear we can't get a clear answer on that one until we get more Jasnah action from her POV.

[Slaybalj]

Also, as the sister to a king, jasnah does not get much true privacy to practice. Transportation would be darn difficult to practice without rumors starting.

I suspect another problem for her was that the heirocracy supressed all the information she needs ( or feels that she needs) to understand what she is doing.

[maxal]

Also, as the sister to a king, jasnah does not get much true privacy to practice. Transportation would be darn difficult to practice without rumors starting.

I suspect another problem for her was that the heirocracy supressed all the information she needs ( or feels that she needs) to understand what she is doing.

 

Yes you made me think of another point I forgot to mention. Jasnah likely had little help in figuring things out. As the first Radiant, she virtually had to uncover the truth out of ancient distorted writings and while we see Wyndle being rather helpful, it is quite possible Ivory was not able to tell her enough to make her progress faster. 

 

If we look at Kaladin, he had Teft who was able to tell him: !1) the first oath, 2) he was becoming a Radiant, 3) drawing stormlight was the key. Of course, Teft knowledge was incomplete and partly false, but he did give enough to Kaladin to push him forward. Jasnah likely had to figure it out all by herself. 

 

As for Shallan, she was just a child. She likely didn't ask herself questions and simply went with the flow.

 

All in all, there are several reasons able to explain why Jasnah progressed, in appearances, slower than Kaladin/Shallan.

[I_am_NOT_fire]

Okay, so I'm going on a different speculation. So from what Syl has said, I've guessed that spren can catch glimpses of people's lives from the cognitive realm. Maybe the KR aren't chosen because they're different, they're chosen because the spren think that they have the capacity to hold to their oathes and not break the bond. For example; Kaladin shows honor in Amaram's army, Shallan is creative (but Pattern is worried that she might not be honest enough, so puts her under pressure to be so,) Jasnah is wise (obviously), and so on. The test for the surgebinders is to maintain their oathes, and the bond. So it's partially personal ethics as it was said before, but I personally don't think that the bond os related to any mental conditions, although they might help/hinder it, depending on the type of spren.