[Theory] Neuroatypical issues and the Nahel bond

[maxal]

In and of it's self,  I don't think Autism is enough to consider someone broken,  and honestly I'll be very disappointed if it is.  Now how he's treated because of it,  as he grew up,  that's another story.  But that would likely put his cracks into an as of yet unknown mental issue.

 

 

I don't have a book in front of me at the moment,  but when I recently reread WoK,  the scene with the footpads made me wonder if her issue deals with an attack,  possibly rape in the past.

 

I agree about the autism. I would be disappointed if being born with a disability was the sole reason why Renarin was chosen. Having a disease may have caused him hardships to surmount in order to prove himself worthy of a bond, but it seems wrong to think it the source of his "brokenness". Not everyone who is born with a disability grow up without any self-esteem such as Renarin. My take on his issues are not so much his disability, but his obsession over becoming a soldier, a career path he seems unsuited for. He could have been born "normal" and chose to enter the Ardentia on his own: not every high ranked lighteyes become soldiers. Therefore the source of his issues seem to sprout from within himself.

 

I tend to disagree about Jasnah. Well, disagree is a strong word as we don't really know, so whatever we advance is pure speculation. However, I somehow have issues with thinking her past hides horrible skeletons such as rape. I am growing incredibly disturbed we seem to have enter a race into determining the worst possible tragedies for each proto-knight.. Aren't we building up too much on Kaladin's backstory? I sincerely doubt the 1000 former knights Radiant, back in the days before the Recreance were all raped, abused, tortured, enslaved, famished and low in self-esteem....... It seems unlikely as if the only requisite to become a knight was to have a horrible past, when it is not quite it. You have to be able to maintain the oath while allowing the bond to take place: being raped or tortured is not a requisite.

 

I thus doubt there is much in Jasnah's past other than her quest as a scholar to prove Vorinism wrong which is more than sufficient to create enough strain to help a Nahel bond. I could be wrong, but I have massive issues into thinking Jasnah chose her life path because she was raped or disabused by men. I prefer to have her simply make that choice, for herself, for her belief. It also makes her a much more interesting character.

[Charononus]

 

I tend to disagree about Jasnah. Well, disagree is a strong word as we don't really know, so whatever we advance is pure speculation. However, I somehow have issues with thinking her past hides horrible skeletons such as rape. I am growing incredibly disturbed we seem to have enter a race into determining the worst possible tragedies for each proto-knight.. Aren't we building up too much on Kaladin's backstory? I sincerely doubt the 1000 former knights Radiant, back in the days before the Recreance were all raped, abused, tortured, enslaved, famished and low in self-esteem....... It seems unlikely as if the only requisite to become a knight was to have a horrible past, when it is not quite it. You have to be able to maintain the oath while allowing the bond to take place: being raped or tortured is not a requisite.

 

I thus doubt there is much in Jasnah's past other than her quest as a scholar to prove Vorinism wrong which is more than sufficient to create enough strain to help a Nahel bond. I could be wrong, but I have massive issues into thinking Jasnah chose her life path because she was raped or disabused by men. I prefer to have her simply make that choice, for herself, for her belief. It also makes her a much more interesting character.

Well my take on why they might have violence in their past in general comes from other books.  I'm going to put the below in spoilers.

 

Mistborn

Allomancy is the big one here with it's snapping.  I think there is a statement from Kelsier about philosophers saying "only someone that has seen death and rejected it" being able to be an allomancer.  (Might not have the quote or the source exact)  

Hemalurgy is the stealing of investiture so it doesn't completely fall into this category.

 

Feruchemy is the odd man out.  It doesn't seem to require anything traumatic

 

Elantris

Dakhor monks seem to experience a great deal of pain to get their powers, which may put it in the same category as snapping.

 

Elantrians well we don't have any idea what causes someone to be chosen by the Shaod.

 

Warbreaker

Awakening is odd.  I'd actually say it's closer to Hemalurgy than anything else,  as you are taking someone else's investiture,  grabbing it for your self and then putting it to use.

 

The Returned however have all died and chosen to come back again to try to save or fix something.  There is a certain symmetry to that with the snapping style of power gain,  if not exactly the same.

 

Now I haven't read all the short stories in the cosmere so I'm not going to be able to get into those systems.  (yet)  However you could say that most magic systems in the cosmere from the major titles seem to require something violent to have happened.

[maxal]

Now I haven't read all the short stories in the cosmere so I'm not going to be able to get into those systems.  (yet)  However you could say that most magic systems in the cosmere from the major titles seem to require something violent to have happened.

 

I believe we are going to have to disagree with the need for "something violent" to happen. I sincerely believe we are building too much on the horrific past story of Kaladin while forgetting the traumatic youth of Shallan is not the catalyst to her Nahel bond, but the more the reason why it nearly shattered.

 

If we look at each individual knight, the one thing they all have in common is agency, meaning the capacity to act in their environment. They make the conscious choice to endorse their strongest beliefs despite adversity, despite wanting to give up, despite having every single reason to not to. Kaladin had every reasons to give up on his squad or bridge 4 or the bridgemen, but he didn't because if he did, he wouldn't have been true to himself. This is, I believe, the mark of a Radiant.

 

Even Renarin has agency: he wants to learn to become a soldier and he is not willing to let anything stand in his way, be it his disability, his sickness or his lack of capacity. It does not matter if he failed in the end, what matters if the fact he was not willing to give up because life threw him a bad set of cards. 

 

Now, if characters such as Jasnah ended up choosing their given path because they were raped and thus eliminated every single path involving married life, then she loses her agency. She ends having made a choice based on circumstances and not belief. I thus strongly believe whatever happened in Jasnah's past did not shape her future. If it did, then she has no agency and thus no business being a Radiant: she let events which were outside of her control shape her destiny which seems as the complete reverse of what Radiants stand for. As a result her being rape being the cause of her dislike of married life which alternatively forced her to become a single scholar seem horribly wrong to me.

 

It also goes back to Renarin's autism not being the reason he was chosen: being made a Radiant based on an uncontrollable circumstance of Renarin's life deprives him of his agency as well.

 

Agency is also why I believe characters such as Adolin have a stronger chance of becoming a Radiant than Elhokar, despite the latest seeing weird sprens in mirrors. Adolin has agency: he stands true to his beliefs even in the face of adversity (stop the bullying, save people). Elhokar, however, has no agency that I can see. He is a victim of the circumstances more than an actor, hence the fact I don't see him as a Radiant.

[DSC01]

Without getting too much into just how bad things have to be for a person for them to become a Radiant (though I do think maxal is right: some of us are overestimating just how awful things have to be), I do think something bad happened to Jasnah. Personally, I'd for it to not be rape. Alethi society is extremely reserved, in terms of interactions between the genders. We don't need something as extreme as rape to traumatize a product of that kind of society. Someone simply trying to take advantage of Jasnah should be enough to have deeply affected her, when she was younger and more naive. 

 

You know what would be interesting? If Amaram was the one who tried to make an inappropriate move on her. We already have some interesting drama with Amaram set up (both Kaladin and Shallan hate him, and there will be complications when they inevitably discuss that). Adding Jasnah to the mix could make it even more interesting.

 

The text says next to nothing about what she feels towards Amaram, the one time she encounters him in the WoR prologue, except... 

 

 

[Gavilar's] eyes swung toward Amaram, whom he'd long fancied as a potential match for her.

 

It would never happen. Amaram met her eyes, then murmured words of parting to her father and hastened away down the corridor.

 

Now, I always read Amaram meeting her eyes, then scurrying off, as him feeling awkward about Gavilar wanting him to marry Jasnah, when she wanted nothing of the kind. It would be more interesting if there was more there, but if he had gone so far as to force himself on her--that's just too much. Now, it might be more interesting if it was even more complicated. For example, maybe Amaram wasn't directly involved but one of his men was, and he intervened in such a way that Jasnah both resents and feels indebted to him.

 

Anyway, just an idea. 

Edited November 17, 2015 by DSC01

[Charononus]

I believe we are going to have to disagree with the need for "something violent" to happen. I sincerely believe we are building too much on the horrific past story of Kaladin while forgetting the traumatic youth of Shallan is not the catalyst to her Nahel bond, but the more the reason why it nearly shattered.

 

If we look at each individual knight, the one thing they all have in common is agency, meaning the capacity to act in their environment. They make the conscious choice to endorse their strongest beliefs despite adversity, despite wanting to give up, despite having every single reason to not to. Kaladin had every reasons to give up on his squad or bridge 4 or the bridgemen, but he didn't because if he did, he wouldn't have been true to himself. This is, I believe, the mark of a Radiant.

 

Even Renarin has agency: he wants to learn to become a soldier and he is not willing to let anything stand in his way, be it his disability, his sickness or his lack of capacity. It does not matter if he failed in the end, what matters if the fact he was not willing to give up because life threw him a bad set of cards. 

 

Now, if characters such as Jasnah ended up choosing their given path because they were raped and thus eliminated every single path involving married life, then she loses her agency. She ends having made a choice based on circumstances and not belief. I thus strongly believe whatever happened in Jasnah's past did not shape her future. If it did, then she has no agency and thus no business being a Radiant: she let events which were outside of her control shape her destiny which seems as the complete reverse of what Radiants stand for. As a result her being rape being the cause of her dislike of married life which alternatively forced her to become a single scholar seem horribly wrong to me.

 

It also goes back to Renarin's autism not being the reason he was chosen: being made a Radiant based on an uncontrollable circumstance of Renarin's life deprives him of his agency as well.

 

Agency is also why I believe characters such as Adolin have a stronger chance of becoming a Radiant than Elhokar, despite the latest seeing weird sprens in mirrors. Adolin has agency: he stands true to his beliefs even in the face of adversity (stop the bullying, save people). Elhokar, however, has no agency that I can see. He is a victim of the circumstances more than an actor, hence the fact I don't see him as a Radiant.

Sorry but I don't see it.  Think of the mistings in the first mistborn trilogy.  (I don't believe we know for sure if Sazed tried to change snapping or even if he could so I'll discount the 2cnd books).  Does Ham lack agency?  Breeze?  Allrianne?  If all of these people can have something violent in their lives happen and not lose their agency,  why would people on Roshar be different?

[Rakei]

Ok the conversation seems to have turned in a direction I can't fully say is wrong, and yes I think the term "broken"-ness might have been a tad overstated and then it seems to become a competition about giving every possible radiant a terrible past that's been traumatic, because of our experiences with Kaladin and Shallan.

 

I'm going to restate things here to a more general way of looking at it and why I think inborn disabilities, which most of the ones listed are, Shallan and Kaladin were at least predisposed to their own issues.

 

So my thinking is less "broken" more along the lines of these are all people who are mentally interesting, and spren do seem to value the ones they bond to because they find them interesting. So I wouldn't expect every Radiant ever to have had a traumatic event happen to them, and it was probably less an issue in the days before the Recreance where spren bonding would have been more common and not considered a terrible thing (from the side of Spren).

So we have neuroatypical people, people who think different from everyone else, and they become fascinating to spren for this very reason, lets imagine in the cognitive realm, everyone is a little light and the lights colour, brightness, and flickering are determined by how their thoughts work.

 

Spren of certain types might become interested in anything out of the ordinary, such as a person who experiences season affective disorder, or someone who has autism, or someone who has a dissociative disorder.

What might also be interesting to bring in Jasnah is someone who is markedly different in their view of the world to everyone who shares their culture and traditions. Jasnah might have been attractive to Spren more because of how she looks at the world. 

She might have been impacted in some way when younger in a way that lead her seek a new way of considering the world.

[Slaybalj]

Jasnah and amaram's reaction to each other could be antipathy between an atheist and a zealot.

i guess what i want is not for the nahel bond to NOT be what reforges a person. You have to choose to reforge yourself and the result is a person who can be bonded. Then, regardless of what happened to them, they are in control.

And yeah, i agree there is something somewhat creepy about dicussing what bad things have happened to the characters or will happen to them so they can form the bond.. I hope the idea that only broken people can become radiants doesnt become common knowledge in world... If it were me, i would HATE having everyone i met wondering what bad thing happened to me to make me develop magic.

Jasnah is the character i identify with the most. I want to get to know her better. she plays cards so close to her chest that the only himts we seem to have on what is going through her mind are from the WoR prologue and what shallan observes. We get a little from navani, but a lot of that is colored by the fact that navani knows jasnah doesn't want navani close.

[maxal]

When Gavilar presented Amaram to Jasnah, she was 28 years old. By that time, she had likely already decided to remain single and had likely already made her wish clear, which was not to stop her father from trying. Adolin is looked down in a bad way because he isn't married yet at 23. At 28, people must have given up on Jasnah a long time ago.

 

I thus don't believe whatever may have happened in her past has anything to do with Amaram. She does not need him to have made a "move" on her to dislike or mistrust him. She has her own spies. She could have found out he played a strange game on her own.

 

I personally dislike linking anything to Jasnah past towards any traumatic events involving men. It is the easy answer. Oh look, she chose not to marry because she was: abused, raped, disillusioned, taken advantage of... As I said before, I believe Jasnah is a stronger character if her life choices were her own made for her own reasons outside any outside influence, making her becoming who she is in reaction to a trauma removes her from her agency. Since I believe all Radiants have agency, all Radiants chose their path by enforcing their strengths as opposed to developing weaknesses shaped around events, then Jasnah can't have a memorable past with me. 

 

She is just not interested in having a romantic relationship. 

 

 

Sorry but I don't see it.  Think of the mistings in the first mistborn trilogy.  (I don't believe we know for sure if Sazed tried to change snapping or even if he could so I'll discount the 2cnd books).  Does Ham lack agency?  Breeze?  Allrianne?  If all of these people can have something violent in their lives happen and not lose their agency,  why would people on Roshar be different?

 

Mistborn isn't the Stormlight Archive. Discussing the Mistborn characters within a Stormlight Archive discussion is pointless. There are enough differences between both magic system you can't make such links. 

 

The problem is not whether or not people having something violent in their past lose agency, it is whether this violence is a requirement for them to attract a spren. Mistborn, you are born with the ability, but need a snapping to make it happen. Stormlight is another game entirely as it implies a spren chose you, for reasons and no a "violent past" is not one of them.

 

Again, we are putting too much emphasis on Kaladin's story. Kaladin was chosen because he strove to protect his men despite all, not because he was depressive. Shallan was chosen because she was creative, not because she was set to murder her mother at a later time. The "violent past" is not a requirement, simply a means to help the bond, but it certainly does not need to be as traumatic as holding your dead brother.

 

As for Jasnah, the reason I disagree her past hides a violent history with men such as rape it is because it makes her choice to become a scholar lesser: this specific past when applied to this specific character makes her lose her agency.

 

There is a massive leap of logic in me stating: "Jasnah having been raped would make her lose her agency due to her life choice of dedicating her life to research" and you stating: "You are saying a violent past makes character lose their agency, you are wrong, look at Mistborn.". The two statements are completely uncorrelated.

 

I thus don't believe there anything awful hidden within Jasnah's past just as I don't believe there is anything more awful then a dead mother and a disability hidden within Renarin's. 

 

 

Spren of certain types might become interested in anything out of the ordinary, such as a person who experiences season affective disorder, or someone who has autism, or someone who has a dissociative disorder.

 

No. I don't believe in this. Kaladin is not a Radiant because he has a genetic predisposition towards depression and Renarin is not a Radiant because he is autism. These issues are nothing more than hardships the characters need to overcome to prove to their sprens they are worthy and capable of withholding the oaths. 

 

What makes Kaladin a Windrunner is not the fact he is depressive, but the fact he strives to protect his men no matter what life throws at him. It does not matter if he wants to do nothing more than curl up in a ball and cry: he still puts his protection duty first and above all. That's what attracted Syl, not his seasonal depression.

 

The brokenness discussion always goes the wrong way, I find.

[Rakei]

...

 

Agency is also why I believe characters such as Adolin have a stronger chance of becoming a Radiant than Elhokar, despite the latest seeing weird sprens in mirrors. Adolin has agency: he stands true to his beliefs even in the face of adversity (stop the bullying, save people). Elhokar, however, has no agency that I can see. He is a victim of the circumstances more than an actor, hence the fact I don't see him as a Radiant.

 

I disagree, as I see it all of them are victims of circumstance to a large degree, with Elhokar at this point in the narrative it's like condemning him because he's like Kaladin in the cage on the way to the shattered plains.

it's not certain how Elhokar was before his father was murdered suddenly, and at the point in time control was to a large extend ripped from him, he was suddenly King of a country at war that was barely holding together before as a single country, then he's in his uncle the Blackthorns shadow.

 

Similar to how Shallan for much of her life before her fathers death seemed to have been outside her control as well.

 

Renarin is a victim of his circumstance, he was born with a difficulty that was very challenging and prevented him from following the path of his brother and father, even if that was what he wished.

[DSC01]

I agree with you to a certain extent, but I think that your ideas about agency are a little off. Everyone reacts to things in their past. That doesn't mean that they don't have agency, as much as anyone does (of course, moving into a philosophical discussion about determinism and such is really outside the scope of the story).

 

What about Shallan? Does she lack agency? WoR is largely about her learning to move beyond suppressing her memories of a horrific past in order to function. And yet she needed that period of time when her character was largely defined by her past in order to build the personal strength to get past it. 

 

As for Jasnah, I think something pretty bad did happen to her. I don't think Shallan was imagining things when she saw something in her expression, after she Soulcast some guys to death. But Jasnah didn't turn into a weeping, ineffective mess or someone totally amoral, like Ialai. Instead, she became her own person. Sure, some of that is a reaction to events in her past, some is a defense mechanism--just like in all human beings. 

 

Now, I understand that having the story go down the road of, "Oh, she's just frigid because a man did her wrong," is stereotypical and does a disservice to her character. However, having her motivations grounded in things that happened in her past--some of them that were perhaps very traumatizing to her--doesn't cheapen the character at all, if it's handled properly.

[DSC01]

Double post. Sorry.

Edited November 17, 2015 by DSC01

[Rakei]

 

 

No. I don't believe in this. Kaladin is not a Radiant because he has a genetic predisposition towards depression and Renarin is not a Radiant because he is autism. These issues are nothing more than hardships the characters need to overcome to prove to their sprens they are worthy and capable of withholding the oaths. 

 

What makes Kaladin a Windrunner is not the fact he is depressive, but the fact he strives to protect his men no matter what life throws at him. It does not matter if he wants to do nothing more than curl up in a ball and cry: he still puts his protection duty first and above all. That's what attracted Syl, not his seasonal depression.

 

The brokenness discussion always goes the wrong way, I find.

 

 

I didn't postulate about what made someone a Radiant, my only speculation was about how a bond might form and that to me seems to be with people who are neuroatypical.

 

Bonding a spren and being capable of becoming a KR are two different matters in my mind. Deepening the bond from the base level would require the correct and relevant oaths (or equivalent) or a spren might lose interest and drift away until they found another who attracted their attention.

[maxal]

 

I disagree, as I see it all of them are victims of circumstance to a large degree, with Elhokar at this point in the narrative it's like condemning him because he's like Kaladin in the cage on the way to the shattered plains.

 

Elhokar is not in a cage. He is not trapped. He still has the power to act. He has the power to not let his temper get the better of him, he has the power to listen or not to those who counsel him, he has the power to put Kaladin in prison or not, he has the power to make public excuse for Moash's parents, he has all the power he wants, but he does not use for the greater good. He only uses it in order to fuel his paranoia or in order to boost his own ego. He only thinks of himself and has yet to share one thought for those he is supposed to rule.

 

Even Kaladin in the cage had power: he has the power to give up or no. 

 

You always have the power to do something, even when you are about to be slayed, you have power: you have the power to die with a scream or no (pun intended to Michele Pfeiffer here). The difference between Elhokar and Kaladin is Kaladin uses what little power he has to make a difference, even if it is meaningless in the higher scope of things while Elhokar has all the power in the world and he refuses to do anything worth mentioning with it. The fact he has "good reasons" to behave this way does not matter. Kaladin has "good reasons" as well to just take his bag of spheres and to storm off towards a better life away form the Aethi high ranked who have repetitively wronged him, but he chose not to. That's the mark of a Radiant and I'll consider Elhokar "Radiant material" the day he is going to start being accountable for his actions and the day he is going to actually use his power in an unselfish way. Until then, no I don't consider he has agency.

 

 

Similar to how Shallan for much of her life before her fathers death seemed to have been outside her control as well.

 

You are forgetting a crucial part of information: Shallan's life before her father's death nearly destroyed her bond with Pattern, dixit Brandon. Her reaction, her lack of agency in those circumstances practically killed Pattern. She was not behaving in a Radiant-way. She was forsaking her oaths and it is only because she retained the glimmer of a conscience towards them that Pattern survived.

 

It is only when she got her agency back she progressed again and Pattern came back.

 

 

Renarin is a victim of his circumstance, he was born with a difficulty that was very challenging and prevented him from following the path of his brother and father, even if that was what he wished.

 

He could have chosen another path in life. Even if born healthy, he could have chosen something else than soldering. It is not an obligation. As for his brother, you are forgetting Adolin did not choose to become a soldier: he was forced to by the circumstances or, more importantly, he chose to in order to fix his father. There is no "Renarin wanted to emulate Adolin" as Renarin never expresses the desire to become a duelist. Renarin wanted to be a soldier. Adolin didn't. So Renarin was not lacking other examples, but while the circumstances of his birth prevented him from following his chosen path, he still did not let those guide him as he stubbornly refuse every single other options. He did not lose his agency, but he lack the means to enforce it until the end of WoK.

 

Had he given up and chose the path of Ardentia, I am not sure he would have bonded Glys... 

 

He wanted to learn being a soldier: he made it happen. Sure, he had a bit of help, but who says Radiants can't be helped? He learned. He learned he was a terrible soldier. His agency is intact. 

 

His story line could have also been completely different. Renarin is a Truthwatcher, which means his personal path is about learning. Right now, he is set on learning to become a soldier, but it could have gone down differently. What if, instead of being focused on soldering, young Renarin instead wished to emulate his aunt and his cousin? What if, growing up as a little boy, reading was the skill he wished he possessed above all but was prevented to simply for being a man? Now this didn't happen, but if it did, the fact he is autistic wouldn't have been the limiting factor. His story could have been different, with the same outcome. 

 

What makes him a Radiant is not his particular circumstance, it is his desire to keep on his path despite adversity. In his case, the adversity took the form of a sickness, but it could have been social conventions as per my above example. 

 

Moreover, I also believe Renarin's autism will eventually become his greatest strength. 

 

 

I agree with you to a certain extent, but I think that your ideas about agency are a little off. Everyone reacts to things in their past. That doesn't mean that they don't have agency, as much as anyone does (of course, moving into a philosophical discussion about determinism and such is really outside the scope of the story).

 

And how you react to it is what makes you a Radiant or not. If you let this past guide your future path, then you likely aren't Radiant material. Every single Radiant we have met has shown the same determination in front of hardships, the same consistency, the same endeavor to follow their given path. Yes the events of the past matter, but they do not sway them from their journey which is why I disagree whatever happened within Jasnah's past drove her to chose the life of celibacy.

 

You could argue everyone has a certain level of agency and be right. The problem with Radiants is their agency must gear them towards a given path, they must truly chose this and not end up there by happenstance because life is a game of dice. In a world where magic is not given at birth, in a world where magic has to be earned, then those choices matter. If, for instance, Renarin only is a Radiant because he was "lucky" to be born autistic, then it defies the purpose. It means the reason you are a Radiants is purely genetic and it also means there are individuals who can never become Radiants simply because they lack the "genetic" to make them "interesting enough" to sprens.

 

So either surgebinding is purely given on merit by sprens who carefully chooses their future knights or it is just as any magic system, you are born to it and providing the proper incentive, you get it (as in Mistborn). I, of course, don't believe it has anything to do with your genetic and everything to do with your person. I believe Radiants are the agents of their life and have proven over time and hardships nothing would take them away from their path. I believe everyone with enough agency and a strong enough personal moral code able to enclose the ideals of a given order can be a Radiant. I believe the second you have that agency, you are going to meet hardships which means you are going to face the possibility of giving up. You are going to crack simply for being so set on your path. Some people have more obvious or traumatic cracking than others, but I don't believe a life of misery is a requirement.

 

Of course, since none of this is proven without the inch of a doubt, you can disagree. I of course chose those I believe have a chance to become a Radiant based on these criteria and not whether they are "neuroatypical" or "broken". I believe everyone has cracks to their soul as nobody lives in a closed vase.

 

 

What about Shallan? Does she lack agency? WoR is largely about her learning to move beyond suppressing her memories of a horrific past in order to function. And yet she needed that period of time when her character was largely defined by her past in order to build the personal strength to get past it. 

 

See above. Again, while she may have needed to period of time to recover, the fact remains that she nearly killed Pattern by doing so. It was not good for her Nahel bond, in fact it was the complete opposite to what she should have done.

 

 

I didn't postulate about what made someone a Radiant, my only speculation was about how a bond might form and that to me seems to be with people who are neuroatypical.

 

Bonding a spren and being capable of becoming a KR are two different matters in my mind. Deepening the bond from the base level would require the correct and relevant oaths (or equivalent) or a spren might lose interest and drift away until they found another who attracted their attention.

 

I disagree you need to be neuroatypical to bond a spren. I disagree all the characters you have named are neuroatypical. The only neuroatypical character I see is Renarin. According to the Urban Dictionary, neuroatypical is term applied to individual suffering from autism, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, ADHD, learning disabilities such as dyspraxia or dyslexia. Most of the characters who currently are Radiants don't fit within those criteria, even Kaladin does not fall within this category despite his multiple issues, though you could argue depression and bipolar disorder are within the same ball park. 

 

We also have the example of Shallan who "disorder" is not the root of her Nahel bond, but the reason is nearly got destroyed. She by herself more or less breaks the argument.

 

I also disagree with the second statement. I believe anyone can bond a spren, but not everyone can become a Radiant, not everyone is strong enough to endorse a strict morality and to maintain it against all odds, against all adversity. The cracks required for the bond to take place do not need to be a traumatic event, they may simply be the by product of doubting, of asking yourself questions, of wondering, of being faced with the choice. The choice to endorse your true self or to divert. See also above.

 

Based on your posts, I suspect you believe the "breaking" is what attracts the sprens, while the rest is more or less irrelevant while I personally believe it is your agency which attracts the spren, the breaking simply being the means by which the bond forms. I also don't believe the spren needs a wide gap in the soul, which seems to fit with the text at hand.

[DSC01]

I agree with much of what you are saying, but I think that your assessment of Jasnah is off. The image that she projects is so wholly devoid of vulnerability. She's trying to protect herself from something. Kaladin seems not too far from becoming a full Radiant--plate and all. Shallan is probably right there with him. The first hint that Jasnah has knows she has a Blade is when she emerges from Shadesmar with one, five or six years after first beginning to bond with Ivory. What is delaying her development so? The way she is so cold with everyone seems to indicate some kind of problem. 

[maxal]

I agree with much of what you are saying, but I think that your assessment of Jasnah is off. The image that she projects is so wholly devoid of vulnerability. She's trying to protect herself from something. Kaladin seems not too far from becoming a full Radiant--plate and all. Shallan is probably right there with him. The first hint that Jasnah has knows she has a Blade is when she emerges from Shadesmar with one, five or six years after first beginning to bond with Ivory. What is delaying her development so? The way she is so cold with everyone seems to indicate some kind of problem. 

 

I am not disagreeing with you nor am I agreeing either, but I'd say the first attribute to the Elsecaller is "wise" and the second is "careful". It could her nature called for a slower progression (being careful). There is also the fact she started her progression with Shadesmar which is hard to master, so she was slowed: neither of her surges appear easy to control. Jasnah also has the habit to check her facts, then check again and then re-check again may have called for a slower progression.

 

Another theory is the lack of tragedy in her life slowed her. By this I mean, look at events which made Kaladin progressed. It quite happenstance he ended in such dire circumstances which forced him to find more oaths. Or look at Shallan which was forced to remember by Pattern. Jasnah likely didn't have the same incentive. 

 

The fact she is cold with people could hide something or it could also simply be within her personality. Clearly, she is an introverted person. Again, I am not disagreeing, I lack the facts to make a better statement. It could be something happened, it could be nothing happened, but I am disagreeing whatever happens had to do with men. I sincerely believe her decision to chose the life of a celibate scholar was deliberate, intentional and not made in reaction to a rape or abuse.

[Blightsong]

I would just like to point out that most studies point towards the loss of a parent at a young age to directly correlate to issues in a relationship only in very young children, like from 0-5. We may be looking at different studies however, but the one I could find after extensive browser searching are telling me this.

[maxal]

I would just like to point out that most studies point towards the loss of a parent at a young age to directly correlate to issues in a relationship only in very young children, like from 0-5. We may be looking at different studies however, but the one I could find after extensive browser searching are telling me this.

 

Attachment can be problematic at any ages and is not restricted to young children. I don't know where you were browsing, but it is well documented attachment can change from "secure" to "insecure" through the course of childhood and adolescence is a period where youngster transition from one phase to another. 

 

In fact, healthy transition to autonomy and adulthood is facilitated by secure attachment and emotional connectedness with parents

 

In a nutshell, research shows that attachment security in adolescence exerts precisely the same effect on development as it does in early childhood: a secure base fosters exploration and the development of cognitive, social and emotional competence

 

The  childhood  loss  of  parent  represents  a  profound  psychological  trauma  that  threatenschild's  social  and  emotional  development.  Considerable  clinical  and  research  attention  hasbeen directed towards understanding the long and short-term consequences of parental deathduring  the  childhood. 

 

50%  of  the  individuals,  who  lost  a  parent  by  death  during  childhood  or  adolescence,tend  to  be  characterized  by  a  serious  disturbance  in  their  psychological  health.  The  12  to  14years age group was characterized by marked egocentrism and emotional and physiologicaldisequilibrium. 

 

The time when a parent's death occurs, it becomes extremely important that the survivingparent  be  able  to  communicate  openly  with  the  child  and  provide  support  because  thesurviving  parent  is  often  rendered  emotionally  incapable  of  this  support  so  the  child  suffersfrom high anxiety. Adolescents who had lost a parent were more likely to experience strongdemands  for  emotional  support  from  the  surviving  parent  following  the  death,  than  thosewho  adjusted  well.  The  literature  on  bereaved  adolescent  suggests  that  several  backgroundcharacteristics  of  the  child,  the  deceased  parent,  and  the  family  may  affect  the  process  andoutcome  of  children's  grief  (Berlinsky  and  Biller,  1982).The  impact  of  parental  bereft  on  adolescents'  development  are  long  lasting  as  theadolescents  remain  deficient  in  certain  parameters  of  psychosocial  functioning  throughouttheir  lives.  

 

The  parent's  death,  it  may  be  mother  or  father,  has  negative  effects  on  the  health  as  wellas  psychological  functioning.  As  psychological  and  physiological  functioning  are  closelyassociated.  Mother  and  father  provide  physiological  satisfaction.  Psychological  health  is  notlimited  to  the  concept  of  basic  needs  satisfaction  rather  it  includes  some  of  the  higher  orderneeds  which  must  be  fulfilled  for  a  healthy  development.  Love,  affection,  security  alsoindirectly  effect  the  health.  Research  has  shown  that  affection  and  love  become  basic  needsof  adolescent  (Muller,  1992)  and  the  bereaved  adolescents  are  unable  to  satisfy  these  needs.

 

In contrast, in non-Western countries, studies of the impact of parental death on educational attainment found that older siblings were more adversely affected compared to younger siblings, presumably because the older siblings took on parental responsibilities in lieu of the pursuit of education

 

It took my about 10 minutes of Googling to find a few sources. Now of course those apply to modern day world, but the loss of a parent can cause attachment issues which are the root cause for later issues in developing significant relationships. You were likely focusing on attachment and children, which is heavily documented and the main topic of every single book on parenting I have ever read. Google on attachment in adults or teenagers. Check attachment issues in relationship in adults: it is basically reading Adolin and his courtships.

 

I know you disagree with basically everything I say when it comes to Adolin, but being incapable to develop a relationship with a woman, screwing it every single tim early on without even knowing why or intending to is NOT normal. Normal secure individuals built relationships, they don't sabotage them as they are barely growing. I know you prefer to believe Adolin is perfectly happy jumping from one courtship to another, but his POV states he does not enjoy it, but more importantly, he does not understand why. His incapacity to see himself as the root cause for his failure is what leads me to believe he has unresolved issues there. 

Edited November 18, 2015 by maxal

[Blightsong]

Attachment can be problematic at any ages and is not restricted to young children. I don't know where you were browsing, but it is well documented attachment can change from "secure" to "insecure" through the course of childhood and adolescence is a period where youngster transition from one phase to another. 

 

In fact, healthy transition to autonomy and adulthood is facilitated by secure attachment and emotional connectedness with parents[/size]

 

In a nutshell, research shows that attachment security in adolescence exerts precisely the same effect on development as it does in early childhood: a secure base fosters exploration and the development of cognitive, social and emotional competence[/size]

 

The  childhood  loss  of  parent  represents  a  profound  psychological  trauma  that  threatenschild's  social  and  emotional  development.  Considerable  clinical  and  research  attention  hasbeen directed towards understanding the long and short-term consequences of parental deathduring  the  childhood. 

 

50%  of  the  individuals,  who  lost  a  parent  by  death  during  childhood  or  adolescence,tend  to  be  characterized  by  a  serious  disturbance  in  their  psychological  health.  The  12  to  14years age group was characterized by marked egocentrism and emotional and physiologicaldisequilibrium. 

 

The time when a parent's death occurs, it becomes extremely important that the survivingparent  be  able  to  communicate  openly  with  the  child  and  provide  support  because  thesurviving  parent  is  often  rendered  emotionally  incapable  of  this  support  so  the  child  suffersfrom high anxiety. Adolescents who had lost a parent were more likely to experience strongdemands  for  emotional  support  from  the  surviving  parent  following  the  death,  than  thosewho  adjusted  well.  The  literature  on  bereaved  adolescent  suggests  that  several  backgroundcharacteristics  of  the  child,  the  deceased  parent,  and  the  family  may  affect  the  process  andoutcome  of  children's  grief  (Berlinsky  and  Biller,  1982).The  impact  of  parental  bereft  on  adolescents'  development  are  long  lasting  as  theadolescents  remain  deficient  in  certain  parameters  of  psychosocial  functioning  throughouttheir  lives.  

 

The  parent's  death,  it  may  be  mother  or  father,  has  negative  effects  on  the  health  as  wellas  psychological  functioning.  As  psychological  and  physiological  functioning  are  closelyassociated.  Mother  and  father  provide  physiological  satisfaction.  Psychological  health  is  notlimited  to  the  concept  of  basic  needs  satisfaction  rather  it  includes  some  of  the  higher  orderneeds  which  must  be  fulfilled  for  a  healthy  development.  Love,  affection,  security  alsoindirectly  effect  the  health.  Research  has  shown  that  affection  and  love  become  basic  needsof  adolescent  (Muller,  1992)  and  the  bereaved  adolescents  are  unable  to  satisfy  these  needs.

 

In contrast, in non-Western countries, studies of the impact of parental death on educational attainment found that older siblings were more adversely affected compared to younger siblings, presumably because the older siblings took on parental responsibilities in lieu of the pursuit of education[/size]

 

It took my about 10 minutes of Googling to find a few sources. Now of course those apply to modern day world, but the loss of a parent can cause attachment issues which are the root cause for later issues in developing significant relationships. You were likely focusing on attachment and children, which is heavily documented and the main topic of every single book on parenting I have ever read. Google on attachment in adults or teenagers. Check attachment issues in relationship in adults: it is basically reading Adolin and his courtships.

 

I know you disagree with basically everything I say when it comes to Adolin, but being incapable to develop a relationship with a woman, screwing it every single tim early on without even knowing why or intending to is NOT normal. Normal secure individuals built relationships, they don't sabotage them as they are barely growing. I know you prefer to believe Adolin is perfectly happy jumping from one courtship to another, but his POV states he does not enjoy it, but more importantly, he does not understand why. His incapacity to see himself as the root cause for his failure is what leads me to believe he has unresolved issues there.

I totally don't disagree with a lot of the stuff you say. I had simply come into sources that had told me something contrary to what you had said and wanted to share I formation in a constructive manor. I think that, if Adolin does turn out to be a radiant which I still doubt, he is most likely to be an edgedancer. You played a big role in convincing me of this. I also never said that he had no issues with failing in many relationships, and don't appreciate words being put into my mouth simply because I offered an unoppinionated presentation of some data I had found.

One thing else I want to mention is that there is a line on the back of one of the SA books that says that a crack in one's soul is often necessary for the use of investiture in the cosmere. This heavily implies that a radiant much go through something that would "snap" them, and not just an fairly average life problem. I don't think that we know enough about Adolin, Elhokar, or Rysn to refer to any of them as proto radiant, as that implies something more than a theory.

I also think that you use your own interpretation of the character as canon, and often argue and derail conversations when Adolin is not refered to in the same light as you see him, which is reasonable, but I don't think that it should happen in a topic pretty unrelated to Adolin, much less any conversation what so ever that Adolin could be brought up in. I think a lot of your infamy when it come to Adolin is your ability to do just that. To turn a topic from one with the key words "Nahel bond, mental issues, theory" into one that should have the tags "Adolin, theory, edgedancer" so often.

Back on topic, after some consideration I don't think that mental issues are what play a role in radiancy, but rather the central issue of someone's life.

For Shallan, she basicly lived a lie for most of her life. We know that she had formed a bond with pattern prior to her mother's death, but what ever happened to her before then must have been seriously messed up, for her to admit to herself the murder of both of her parents to herself before whatever went down before then. It is pretty likely that the last truth for Shallan to tell is the most important, anything else would be anticlimactic, and Brandon is known for writing great climaxes. When Shallan finally starts making progress to admitting the death of her father (which I'm certain is when she began summoning pattern in WoK as we know she could not have soulcast if she had'nt started to summon her blade) is when her and pattern's bond begins to reawaken. Shallan's central issue in her life was that she was living a lie. Her radiancy is a means to guide her away from that and towards really living, instead of lying to herself.

Kaladin's main issue in life is his inability to protect those he cares for. This began when Tien died. He threw himself into learning how to fight (and I think that is when Syl first found him) and eventually began to manage to protect his squad. He failed once more, but still didn't give up, trying to escape with and protect his fellow slaves. When he become "the retch" and eventually is about to end his life, he strays from his progress at protecting. This persuades Syl to leave him, as she does before finally coming back and convincing Kaladin to save bridge four, as he then tries to do. As he gains more confidence in himself and his ability to protect those around him he makes progress with his bond, the nail in the coffin being when he decides to save Dalinar's army and he swears his second ideal. This pattern repeats in WoR, but with Kaladin being unsure of who to protect and why, rather than how to protect and why.

I don't think that we know enough about the other confirmed oath-sworn to continue this theory with them, but I think lift mentioning "I have tried being uncaring before. It doesn't work (paraphrased)" is a good indicator that this is correct. Let me know what you guys think.

[maxal]

I totally don't disagree with a lot of the stuff you say. I had simply come into sources that had told me something contrary to what you had said and wanted to share I formation in a constructive manor. I think that, if Adolin does turn out to be a radiant which I still doubt, he is most likely to be an edgedancer. You played a big role in convincing me of this. I also never said that he had no issues with failing in many relationships, and don't appreciate words being put into my mouth simply because I offered an unoppinionated presentation of some data I had found.

 

It would have worked better if you had offered a more constructive criticism then simply stating you couldn't find any data. Jumping in there, pages after the discussion moved to another topic to just state I must be inventing "issues" because you couldn't find it on Google was not the best way to make your statement. It also defies the purpose of you later on accusing me of making discussion derail onto the subject of Adolin. I responded to that further down this post. 

 

For the rest, well thanks  I'm glad to know I manage to convince you. You were a hard buyer, which is a quality, but sorry for putting words into your mouth. You and I have often been at a disagreement over Adolin in the past and I assumed this was another case of such. You are right, I presumed too much and for this I will apologize. 

 

 

One thing else I want to mention is that there is a line on the back of one of the SA books that says that a crack in one's soul is often necessary for the use of investiture in the cosmere. This heavily implies that a radiant much go through something that would "snap" them, and not just an fairly average life problem. I don't think that we know enough about Adolin, Elhokar, or Rysn to refer to any of them as proto radiant, as that implies something more than a theory.

 

I did not list either as proto-Radiants (I don't typically refer to Adolin as a proto-Radiant, I agree with you that whatever his future status may be, his current stauts is not proto-Radiant), I simply disputed the idea of naming Elhokar, Rysn, Szeth and Eshonai potential future Radiants and not naming Adolin.

 

 

I also think that you use your own interpretation of the character as canon, and often argue and derail conversations when Adolin is not refered to in the same light as you see him, which is reasonable, but I don't think that it should happen in a topic pretty unrelated to Adolin, much less any conversation what so ever that Adolin could be brought up in. I think a lot of your infamy when it come to Adolin is your ability to do just that. To turn a topic from one with the key words "Nahel bond, mental issues, theory" into one that should have the tags "Adolin, theory, edgedancer" so often.

 

I will put the remaining of it within spoilers, for those who actually want to read my response to this.

 

I did not make the discussion derail. The initial poster listed a bunch of characters he/she believed to be "future Radiants" and omitted Adolin. Another poster than myself pointed out and listed why she thought he should be there. The initial poster responded by stating he/she didn't think Adolin belongs there because he is too "normal" and "stable" which more or less goes against his/her initial theory-making. I answered to this post by stating I didn't believe Adolin was as "normal" and "stable" as some readers take him to be. I mentioned how I believed (and I put in evidence this was my personal theory and my personal opinion) he has attachment issues which are being reflected in his inability to form healthy relationships while desperately wanting to. If you read on "avoidant attachment" patterns in adult-adult relationships, it is dangerously similar to Adolin's entire behavior. This, of course, remains a theory I personally crafted based on the facts I have under the hand and as any theory, it can be wrong even if I currently believe it isn't. The initial poster responded to this thread and I responded back by offering more details and this was it. Two posts Blightsong, on how many? The discussion then moved to other topics. You are, unfortunately, the one who brought it back... Not myself. Sorry.

I never once mentioned the "Edgedancer theory" (or even the word Edgedancer) nor anything else pertaining Adolin (someone else mentioned the Edgedancers, not myself and I didn't pick it up either to launch myself into heavy theory making as, I agree, it wasn't the right topic). I simply stated how I didn't believe he was this "normal", "stable", "secure", "healthy" human being some readers are seeing. I offered clues to indicate what makes me believe it.

It was very much within topic to state these things and I did not think I enforced the point or forced the conversation to move onto a favored topic of mine. The last pages are filled with discussions on other characters and matters, a discussion I have been fairly active in.

Last I checked, this was not a topic on Jasnah either, but we spend quite a deal of time discussing her. Was that off topic as well? Or is it fine because it isn't Adolin and nobody can be accused of being infamous? BTW, the term is not the most flattering. I did not know having a preferred character was cause enough to be called infamous, but let's skip over that.

I thus refute the accusations of myself solely making discussions derail on the subject of Adolin when in fact I try to do my best NOT TO make them derail. You should be made aware I am rarely the one who initiates discussions on Adolin and while I actively participate in them, I do not create them nor do I possess an alternate username to self-answer myself in order to keep them going. If people are interested into discussing him, then I am all for it, of course. However, the truth is Adolin related topics, on a general average, do tend to generate responses. They have been generating responses for 2 years now and I am hardly the only poster who takes part in those. I may be the most well-known and the most active, but I am not the only one.

He is a popular character (and I know you like him). If you go the Tor.com re-read, it is fascinating the topics who generated the most comments often are those who were Adolin related. I am not inventing this nor am I creating it. He is just a character who pops into many discussions, who is at the center of many events. He also is a character many readers want to continue reading about and has a lot to offer when it comes to speculations and discussions. In other words, he is interesting.

 

However, I do believe your accusations towards myself purposefully making discussions derail are unfounded and exaggerated. Participating into an already existing discussion where someone else brought the subject is not making the conversation derail. Besides, all topics tend to derail after a fashion and quite frankly, I hardly am the cause for most of those.

 

[soulcastJam]

I was under the impression that Rysn survived by the power of the greatshell.  Was that not as clear as I imagined it? (don't have my book on me right now.)

[DSC01]

Yeah, they said it was its spren. If she is going to become a Surgebinder, it's going to be tough for her to figure that out, now that she has a pet larkin. 

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

While I don't completely subscribe to the part about specific mental issues being linked to specific Radiant orders, the rest of this theory looks promising.

 

In this light I think the Davar family deserves a closer look.

From Nan Balat's first WoK interlude we know that all of the Davar children are in some way broken:

• Balat is a Sadist
• Jushu is a gambling addict
• Wikim suffers from depression
• Shallan has her issues which have already been discussed
• Helaran... well, he might be the exception, but I need to take a closer look at him

The interesting thing is that all of these issues can be traced back to Lin Davar's treatment of his children.

Lin being a Ghostblood, is it possible the Davar family was somehow a Ghostblood experiment in creating Radiants?

[maxal]

While I don't completely subscribe to the part about specific mental issues being linked to specific Radiant orders, the rest of this theory looks promising.

 

In this light I think the Davar family deserves a closer look.

From Nan Balat's first WoK interlude we know that all of the Davar children are in some way broken:

• Balat is a Sadist
• Jushu is a gambling addict
• Wikim suffers from depression
• Shallan has her issues which have already been discussed
• Helaran... well, he might be the exception, but I need to take a closer look at him

The interesting thing is that all of these issues can be traced back to Lin Davar's treatment of his children.

Lin being a Ghostblood, is it possible the Davar family was somehow a Ghostblood experiment in creating Radiants?

 

I don't think it likely. What you describe sound too much like the Envisagers, Teft's parents sect, who believed becoming a Radiant solely implied knowing the oaths and living through an ordeal (being broken). They thus put themselves in do or die situations which typically ended up with their death. Their endeavors prove one thing: you don't get to choose to become a knight, the spren chooses and horrific situations you may end up in are not what draws them out.

 

I don't personally think the spren are going to choose someone simply because he is broken. I believe they are going to choose him if the person has enough conviction to maintain the oath (whatever conditions they want to assure themselves that conviction is strong enough may fluctuate from one order to the other, but I doubt being beaten is typically one of them), but I doubt they are browsing the world looking for more depressive, suicidal, autistic individuals.

 

Anyway, the only individual who enters into the classic definition of "neuroatypical" is Renarin.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

I don't think it likely. What you describe sound too much like the Envisagers, Teft's parents sect, who believed becoming a Radiant solely implied knowing the oaths and living through an ordeal (being broken). They thus put themselves in do or die situations which typically ended up with their death. Their endeavors prove one thing: you don't get to choose to become a knight, the spren chooses and horrific situations you may end up in are not what draws them out.

 

I don't personally think the spren are going to choose someone simply because he is broken. I believe they are going to choose him if the person has enough conviction to maintain the oath (whatever conditions they want to assure themselves that conviction is strong enough may fluctuate from one order to the other, but I doubt being beaten is typically one of them), but I doubt they are browsing the world looking for more depressive, suicidal, autistic individuals.

 

Anyway, the only individual who enters into the classic definition of "neuroatypical" is Renarin.

 

Where the envisagers went wrong (most wrong, they were all obviously a bit bonkers IMO) is that they interpreted 'broken' purely physically, and not spiritually (or cognitively).

 

I don't think spren are going to choose someone simply because they are broken either. But it does seem to be one of the prerequisites.

The spren chooses someone who exhibits conviction, if you live an easy life without anything to test those convictions, you might as well not have them at all. Being beaten is (probably) not one of the conditions, but the way you handle being beaten might be.

 

Neuroatypical might not have been the best choice of words, but you must admit that all Radiants and Proto-Radiants so far have exhibited some form of behaviour that in this world would most likely qualify you for therapy.

 

 

As to Lift's proposed condition in the OP: ADHD, isn't it more likely she has abandonment issues? 

[Rakei]

As I'm understanding it from the text itself, Kaladin yells at Syl that he is broken (and therefore not at all capable of being a knight) to which she responds - They all were, silly

 

To further explain I'm going to do a thought experiment. Say you have a one-legged person (with a prosthetic leg) and a hale person and they both run a race, the one with the prosthetic leg will look more impressive.

 

Another, we have two people who're going to give a lecture, they're your average students, but one has social anxiety and a near debilitating stage fright. The both manage to give the lecture, but it's more impressive that the person with social anxiety and debilitating stage fright did it.

 

So living the codes and convictions of the knights, while good and fine, it's not as impressive as a person who has a mental issue (I called it neuroatypical to not offend anyone) which we would normally consider something you had therapy and pharmaceuticals for.

 

I think it's entirely possible that the Ghostsbloods were trying to create a Radiant, the Envisagers were doing a similar thing, but they likely lacked the specific knowledge about the formation of a bond, it can't be forced (at least by the persons themselves) but creating conditions that might create a proto-radiant could be possible.

 

The envisagers all knew what they were trying to do, but none of the Davar children would know they were part of an experiment, they wouldn't be trying to get power, they'd either rise against the odds and perhaps become "proto-radiants" or not.

 

On Lift, I went with what I got from the little we saw of her, she could have abandonment issues on top of everything else, she might turn out to have a very different past than the little we've seen, she could have trust issues which don't specifically have to do with abandonment, she implies she's had a period of emotionlessness (she recognizes it in Darkness' eyes)