Will Dalinar learn how Kaladin became a slave, in WOR?

[Musica she/her]

Okay I haven't read all the comments yet but I just have to reply here after reading the first pages.

I have some bones to pick with some people's ideas (no offense intended). 

sorry in advance for the lengh.

 

1) I read people writting about how, because they know that ultimatley Kaladin will save more people than Amaram, they think Amaram is the bad guy here.

- seriously?! "If I know Amaram will only save like 100 people, while Kaladin will probably play an integral role in saving the whole world, then killing his friends and turning him into a slave for the Shards is wrong. But if it turns out the other way around, it is okay"?? the hell? killing innocents is ALWAYS wrong, no matter your reasons, no matter your justifications. a person's worth isn't mesasured by how many lives he might save! if it was, then we are almost all doomed, as I don't think each and every one of us will ever come across a person in need of saving or whatever. does it mean our lives are less important then, say, a doctor's? NO.

 

2) the Ideals of the KR are well and good, but they are not the reason someone is honorable or not! You don't necessarily either follow them or in the wrong. "The first Ideal says that the journey is more important than the destintation- that's why what Amaram did is wrong\right". Ah, no. that's not why it is wrong\right. it's wrong because killing defenseless, innocent poeple is wrong. as simple as that.

 

3) Amaram is a good\decent person who had a moment of weakness?!? really?! well, "I had a moment of weakness yesterday when my friend pissed me off so killed them, but don't worry I'm a good person so that absolves me!" no, it doesn't. I don't care what delusions or excuses Amaram came up with, I don't care if Restares (whatever his name is) influenced him (that just makes him weaker), he can claim that in his hands the Shards will do more good all he wants (and BTW, someone capable of a betrayal like he commited I wouldn't trust to keep his word or protect me in a thousand years. I also don't think it's true- one of Kaladin's soldiers could have became a lighteyes and, as someone who actually understand what's it like for the darkeyes and who had a good example in Kaladin for how a leader should be, would have made a much better and more helpful champion), it won't change the fact that to satisfy his own selfish desires, he committed the wordst betrayal a commander can committ against his own troops.

 

4) "leadrers should think about the greater good". well then, how would any of us feel if it was our death that was deemed to better serve the greater good? sorry, don't buy it. leadership comes with burdens and hardships, and some of those are finding a third way, where you don't sarifice any lives. yes, it might mean that eventually you will fail, but again, that is a burden a leader chooses when accepting the mantle of leadership. we can go into philosophical debates about what the right thing to do is in an impossible situation where you need to choose between lives, but that's not the situation that happened- what might be in the future is not an excuse for committing a crime in the present.

 

5) the fact that Amaram might actually have some conscience? I totally agree that it makes what happened all the worse. when you knowingly choose to do the wrong thing for, let's face it, selfish reasons, for greed and power warped nicely in the reasoning that you will do good with that power... just no. someone who thinks like that is in a desperate need of some serious wake up call (and in Amaram's case, hopefuly a painful one, as well).

 

so, call me bloodthirsty, call me vengeanful, call me whatever. If Amaram gets redemption without at least coming to justice (and without becoming a martyr or be fully forgiven by Kaladin and others whom he may have wronged) I will be one unhappy, frustrated and angry camper reader.

Edited January 27, 2014 by 16Shards

[Duskshard he/him]

What I think will happen (roughly).

 

• Dalinar will find out about the history between Kaladin and Amaram and will empathize with Kaladin because of the similarities between what was done to him by Amaram and Dalinar by Sadeas
• I think Dalinar will persuade Kaladin not to take vengeance on him because he need Amaram's help to unite the Highprinces, just as Dalinar can't afford to be seeking vengeance on Sadeas at the present.
• Amaram will eventually betray Dalinar (possibly nearly costing him his life) and Kal will kill him for it. (Justice at last)

[Morsk he/him]

My idea of "justice" would be if Dalinar and Amaram took Kaladin into confidence, and said look, this is just how Lighteyes have to do things, we need Amaram's help, Amaram needed the Shards, Amaram is part of an important plan against the Ghostbloods (or whatever), etc. And then Kaladin was like ok fine you're right, gee Lighteyes and all your burdens. And then did the Lighteyes thing and had Amaram assassinated.

Probably wouldn't happen in one of Brandon's books though!

[Mr Horrible]

My idea of "justice" would be if Dalinar and Amaram took Kaladin into confidence, and said look, this is just how Lighteyes have to do things, we need Amaram's help, Amaram needed the Shards, Amaram is part of an important plan against the Ghostbloods (or whatever), etc. And then Kaladin was like ok fine you're right, gee Lighteyes and all your burdens. And then did the Lighteyes thing and had Amaram assassinated.

Probably wouldn't happen in one of Brandon's books though!

 

How on earth is that justice for the darkeyes Amaram killed? Plus if Dalinar has a problem with how Sadeas used the bridgemen, do you think he'll be fine with what Amaram did? Note that this was previous to some of Dalinar's development and his belief in the codes has risen considerably.

 

As far as Amaram goes, if I had to guess I'd say he used to be someone decent but is being corrupted by Restares. On the other hand considering who Dalinar was previous to the series, Amaram being an old friend of his isn't really a glowing recommendation, although it's not a bad thing either.

[Dru]

A lot of the discussion here seams to be about Amarams nature as a person and I will use some info from way of kings and from the words of radiance sample chapters. I have arraigned it in the order it have happened in the world and not the order we have it in the books. This i think will shred som more light on Amarams nature and i will end with how i believe it will be reviled.

First we start of with the encounter between Jasnah and her father in the prologue of word of radiance.

“Perhaps if you found pleasant associations,” Gavilar said, “you would enjoy the feasts.” His eyes swung toward Amaram, whom he’d long fancied as a potential match for her.

It would never happen. Amaram met her eyes, then murmured words of parting to her father and hastened away down the corridor.

Also in this sene I believe we see from whom Amaram got the knowledge about the ghostbloods and now since Gavilar is dead he is forced to take over the mantel and team up with someone else to combat the ghoustbloods.

In way of kings we see this sene during Shallan and Jasnahs nightly visit in the city :

Jasnah leaned back, watching the city pass. “I did not do this just to prove a point, child. I have been feeling for some time that I took advantage of His Majesty’s hospitality. He doesn’t realize how much trouble he could face for allying himself with me. Besides, men like those…” There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before.

What was done to you? Shallan wondered with horror. And who did it?

The next sense of interest is this from words of radiance sample chapters.

“It doesn’t bother you at all?” Jasnah said. “The idea of being beholden to another, particularly a man?”

“It’s not like I’m being sold into slavery,” Shallan said with a laugh.

“No. I suppose not.” Jasnah shook herself, her poise returning. “Well, I will let Navani know you are amenabl

From these senes i think we can conclude that something happened to Jasnah that made her "hate" men. Maybe she was sexually assaulted and possibly by Amaram. Side note, I'm in the Kaladin - Jasnah bandwagon, Kaladin will "heal" Jasnahs hate of men and she will "heal" his hate of lightseyes.

I believe also that the Amaram - Kaladin confrontation will go through Jasnah with help from Shallan. I imagen a sene at the shattered plains where Jasnah and Shallan discuss Amarams prowness by gaining shards on the battlefield and how honourable he is. Now Jasnah will some how show her dislike of Amaram and Kaladin thair guard for the moment will pipe in saying that he agrees with Jasnah. He will be asked why and he will say ask him to tell the story about how he won the shards and make sure to bring pattern.

They will get to know that Amaram is lying and Jasnah seeing a chance for retribution will bring him to justice since she is in a much better social position to do so.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Dru

[Aleksiel]

From these senes i think we can conclude that something happened to Jasnah that made her "hate" men. Maybe she was sexually assaulted and possibly by Amaram. Side note, I'm in the Kaladin - Jasnah bandwagon, Kaladin will "heal" Jasnahs hate of men and she will "heal" his hate of lightseyes.

 

I don't think Amaram assaulted Jasnah, because I can't imagine him living to see another day after this. Even when she couldn't soulcast and defend herself, she wasn't the type of woman who would silently cry in the corner and not seek justice. She wasn't very close to Gavilar, but she would have told someone, at least her mother - Jasnah expects her to believe the theory on Pashrmen, so she obviously would never disregard something her daughter told her. Even if someone had assaulted Jasnah, they are long punished and most likely dead. After all, as princess Jasnah has enough power to have someone killed even if chose to tell noone about it.

 

She almost had her brother's wife assassinated, why would anyone think she wouldn't do the same for any man who wronged her?

[don_karma_II he/him]

Once Amaran recognizes Kaladin (if he does), he will surely tell Dalinar that Kaladin is a deserter and coward. Adolin will probably believe him. Dalinar would want an explanation. But Amaran will refuse and storm out of the room.

[Dru]

I don't think Amaram assaulted Jasnah, because I can't imagine him living to see another day after this. Even when she couldn't soulcast and defend herself, she wasn't the type of woman who would silently cry in the corner and not seek justice. She wasn't very close to Gavilar, but she would have told someone, at least her mother - Jasnah expects her to believe the theory on Pashrmen, so she obviously would never disregard something her daughter told her. Even if someone had assaulted Jasnah, they are long punished and most likely dead. After all, as princess Jasnah has enough power to have someone killed even if chose to tell noone about it.

 

She almost had her brother's wife assassinated, why would anyone think she wouldn't do the same for any man who wronged her?

 

I believe this to have happened long ago before Jasnah was 20, at a time where she was ashamed and frightened of it and not the strong person she is today. If Amaram was at the time one of few very important figure around Gavilar before he had united the kingdom and she felt she could not expose him because her father needed him or wouldn't believe her.

 

If anyone would try do it to day heads would roll for sure. 

[Aleksiel]

I believe this to have happened long ago before Jasnah was 20, at a time where she was ashamed and frightened of it and not the strong person she is today. If Amaram was at the time one of few very important figure around Gavilar before he had united the kingdom and she felt she could not expose him because her father needed him or wouldn't believe her.

 

If anyone would try do it to day heads would roll for sure. 

 

Plausible, but improbable. A girl doesn't just forget and move on after something like this. She would have had him off with his head  years after the assault in this case, because today's Jasnah wouldn't let a known rapist walk free.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Aleksiel

[don_karma_II he/him]

Jasnah is Tarah!!

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Once Amaran recognizes Kaladin (if he does), he will surely tell Dalinar that Kaladin is a deserter and coward. Adolin will probably believe him. Dalinar would want an explanation. But Amaran will refuse and storm out of the room.

 

Yeah, I am afraid Adolin might believe anything about Kaladin because he resents him. I hope not. I liked Adolin in TWoKs and his assessment of Sadeas shows he normally is a good judge of character. Kaladin is my favorite character in TWoKs, possibly my favorite character from Sanderson, so I know if Adolin begins judging him unfairly because of his stupid pride I'm really going to get annoyed with him. I see it coming, but I don't like it. I hope that this isn't the case, or at least that Adolin gets over it before the end of WoR.

 

Or, maybe Adolin will try to find out Kaladin's past to warn Dalinar and instead discover Amarams betrayal. That would be awesome. I doubt it will happen though. Every neat way I imagine Dalinar finding out how Kaladin became a slave seems doubtful to me. I still wonder if Kaladin will tell anyone the full story before the end of WoR.

[don_karma_II he/him]

Yeah, I am afraid Adolin might believe anything about Kaladin because he resents him. I hope not. I liked Adolin in TWoKs and his assessment of Sadeas shows he normally is a good judge of character. Kaladin is my favorite character in TWoKs, possibly my favorite character from Sanderson, so I know if Adolin begins judging him unfairly because of his stupid pride I'm really going to get annoyed with him. I see it coming, but I don't like it. I hope that this isn't the case, or at least that Adolin gets over it before the end of WoR.

 

Or, maybe Adolin will try to find out Kaladin's past to warn Dalinar and instead discover Amarams betrayal. That would be awesome. I doubt it will happen though. Every neat way I imagine Dalinar finding out how Kaladin became a slave seems doubtful to me. I still wonder if Kaladin will tell anyone the full story before the end of WoR.

 

I will be pretty disappointed if Kaladin is the one who comes out with the story. I know he has every right to come out with it. I know he has every right to blame Amaran in public. I just feel it's not right for his character arc ATM. His story arc right now is to trust or not to trust light eyes, so he will probably keep it to himself and let it boil, bringing in an unconscious fight over whether honour or odium prevails. 

[+eveorjoy she/her]

I will be pretty disappointed if Kaladin is the one who comes out with the story. I know he has every right to come out with it. I know he has every right to blame Amaran in public. I just feel it's not right for his character arc ATM. His story arc right now is to trust or not to trust light eyes, so he will probably keep it to himself and let it boil, bringing in an unconscious fight over whether honour or odium prevails. 

 

When I say tell anyone, I mean Teft, Moash, or Rock. I doubt he would just tell Dalinar without being ordered and even then I think Dalinar would have to encourage him to give the full story.

[lordofsoup]

I would love to see Amaram try to convince Dalinar that the man who charged the entire Parshendi army with 40 men and a bridge is a deserter and a coward.  Amaram likely does not know how Kaladin got into his position in Dalinar's army.  If he tries to destroy his reputation on their first meeting, he is going to shoot himself in the foot.  Kaladin might not be able to restrain himself.  If that happens Amaram will need to be wearing his Shardplate, without it he would have no chance, but I dont think he is wearing it.  

Edited January 29, 2014 by lordofsoup

[TomR]

Skill is irrelevant to who should carry the Shards.

 

I disagree.  First, in the same breath that Amaram claims that Alethkar would be best suited if he were to carry Shards, he justifies that claim by saying that "he is trained in the sword and accustomed to plate."  Based on that alone, I'd say skill is relevant.  Second and more generally, the whole tradition that defeating a Shardbearer means getting their Shards implies a tradition of recognizing superior skill.  Third, in Alethkar Shards are only used for martial puprposes; anything Amaram is skilled at that isn't fighting he can do just as well without Shards.  Fourth, outside Alethkar and in Alethkar before it was united, kings and highprinces with only one or two sets of Shards have chosen champions to bear them.  All that said, skill seems to matter.

 

Also, I'm fairly confident that a teleological/consequentialist system works quite nicely for Amaram's worldview, though of course it depends on what exactly he did with the Shards all these years.

 

 

 

With the goal of maximizing lives saved, a consequentialist rationale requires that Amaram needed the Shards for the a presumed grander purpose and that he had to kill the three soldiers in order to get those Shards.  Considering the power differential between a high-ranked lighteyes and darkeyed soldiers under said lighteyes's command, I have a hard time accepting the second argument.

 

However, like you said, we haven't seen much of Amaram, so it's hard to judge at this point.  Given the latest sample chapter, I do have to say Amaram talking about how he got the Shardblade kind of made me hate him a little (more on-topic, it also made me feel fairly certain that Dalinar's going to find out the truth.  How he reacts to the truth, that's a harder question).  Irrational, but there you go.

Edited January 28, 2014 by TomR

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

With the goal of maximizing lives saved, a consequentialist rationale requires that Amaram needed the Shards for the a presumed grander purpose and that he had to kill the three soldiers in order to get those Shards.  Considering the power differential between a high-ranked lighteyes and darkeyed soldiers under said lighteyes's command, I have a hard time accepting the second argument.

He explained in that same scene why he had to kill the three men. In order for him to lead (especially because of his honorable reputation), he couldn't have people thinking less of him for how he acquired the blade. Four men talking about how he got the shards would start rumors. One slave would be ignored.

 

In his mind, he had reason to kill those men for the greater good.

[Scrutiny]

 

 

“Yes,” the newcomer said, pulling back and holding his hand to the side. “Taken from an assassin who dared try to kill me on the field of battle.”

Based on the quote he never lied about how he got the shards he only tells half the truth.  Maybe he will attract a cryptic 

[Aleksiel]

I am so reading Kaladin's reaction to Amaram before anything else. 

[TomR]

He explained in that same scene why he had to kill the three men. In order for him to lead (especially because of his honorable reputation), he couldn't have people thinking less of him for how he acquired the blade. 

 

Yeah, I'm aware.  I find it a thin justification, as I said in an earlier post.  Every lighteyes in that room with Kaladin and his men knew the truth about how Amaram got his Shards.  Probably every member of his honor guard, given that they came back after the Shardbearer died to pull Amaram off the field.  Do they think less of Amaram?  No, he's generally known as a hero anyway.  Besides, any argument that his reputation is necessary for him to lead is weak given the feudal society.

 

On top of that, the darkeyed soldiers were unarmed and easily overpowered.  The best fighter among them had no choice but to fall on his knees and beg for his life before they killed them.  Doesn't seem like it should have been too hard for Amaram to split them up and sell them all into slavery.  Or hey, cutting out tongues is a pretty common fantasy trope, and men don't write in Alethi society.  At least they'd have been alive.  In a less brutal scenario, Kaladin was stepping outside tradition when he didn't claim the Shards, Amaram could've leveraged that as an excuse.  Even better, he could've gone the "honorable" route and tried to win their loyalty, taken them into his confidence and let them know why he needed the Shards.  Killing being the only way Amaram could get the Shards?  Hours of thought and he couldn't come up with anything better?  I'd need a better explanation than some potential rumors for me to judge it as ethical even from a consequentialist standpoint.  Not to say there's no scenario which would fit it into one, but without more information, I don't think of that as exoneration.

Edited January 28, 2014 by TomR

[Moogle]

Besides, any argument that his reputation is necessary for him to lead is weak given the feudal society.

 

Necessary to lead, no, but necessary to get close to people like Dalinar? Absolutely. A good reputation comes with many benefits.

 

On top of that, the darkeyed soldiers were unarmed and easily overpowered.  The best fighter among them had no choice but to fall on his knees and beg for his life before they killed them.  Doesn't seem like it should have been too hard for Amaram to split them up and sell them all into slavery.  Or hey, cutting out tongues is a pretty common fantasy trope, and men don't write in Alethi society.

Splitting them up adds unnecessary risk when they can just be killed off. Cutting out tongues is never done in Alethkar as a punishment, and certainly not as a punishment for deserting. As Tyrion so aptly puts it in ASOIAF, cutting out a man's tongue just tells the world you fear something he has to say. Death is quicker, easier, and safer.

 

In a less brutal scenario, Kaladin was stepping outside tradition when he didn't claim the Shards, Amaram could've leveraged that as an excuse.  Even better, he could've gone the "honorable" route and tried to win their loyalty, taken them into his confidence and let them know why he needed the Shards.

 

Could've leveraged it as an excuse, but everyone would think he was lying. See previous point about a good reputation being important.

 

Yes, Amaram could've tried to win their loyalty, but it was an unnecessary risk. If it was even 1% likely that they wouldn't be fanatically loyal to him, and Amaram saved over 10000 lives, then it's pretty clear what the choice is given consequentialist ethical framework and saving lives as your primary goal.

 

Killing being the only way Amaram could get the Shards?  Hours of thought and he couldn't come up with anything better?  I'd need a better explanation than some potential rumors for me to judge it as ethical even from a consequentialist standpoint.

 

We don't know what Amaram is doing, so it is entirely possible that rumors would entirely ruin his plans. I think the best we can do at this point is say that maybe Amaram's actions are justified in a consequentialist framework and maybe they're not.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Moogle

[TomR]

 

Necessary to lead, no, but necessary to get close to people like Dalinar? Absolutely. A good reputation comes with many benefits.

That is a good point.  Given general Alethi attitudes, I hadn't really considered he would be worried about getting close to Dalinar.

 

We don't know what Amaram is doing, so it is entirely possible that rumors would entirely ruin his plans. I think the best we can do at this point is say that maybe Amaram's actions are justified in a consequentialist framework and maybe they're not.

 

Fair enough.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Based on the quote he never lied about how he got the shards he only tells half the truth.  Maybe he will attract a cryptic 

 

Maybe he already has. If Amaram is a KR potential that would be so hard for Kaladin. 

[Aleksiel]

Maybe he already has. If Amaram is a KR potential that would be so hard for Kaladin. 

 

And they could train together, tee-hee

[SpringWarmCold he/him]

i hope Adolin duels Amaram for his shards and kicks his chull. probably unlikely, but would be awesome nonetheless. 

[Delightful]

Maybe he already has. If Amaram is a KR potential that would be so hard for Kaladin. 

NOOOOO!!!

 

Just. Just. No. Amaram made him a slave. Killed his friends/squad. Failed to protect Tien. Whatever his reasoning, Kal hates him and just no. I will not accept this.

 

(I may have to later revise that statement once I've read the book. Still. No.)