Will Dalinar learn how Kaladin became a slave, in WOR?

[Moogle]

 

So you prefer Amaram over Dalinar?

 

Of the two, I'd prefer to serve under Amaram. Chances of survival are better. At least he doesn't lead his soldiers into traps where 3/4 of them die because their leader is trying to be honorable and trust a cartoon villain.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

I initially stated if the decision was between Amaram and Kaladin, but when I thought more about it, Kaladin also does not follow the Ideas completely. Neither does Dalinar, the Blackthorn. They've both deviated from them on occasions, so I decided to change the wording a bit.

 

As I said, the Ideals of the KR is nice, but if you try to apply it to every situation, then that would make you a zealot, and the ideals no more than just another set of dogma.

 

EDIT:

 

A leader cannot afford to trust too easily.

 

Look at Dalinar, and what happened when he trusted Sadeas. Or in a more relatable event, not even Kaladin trust his own men when he told Sly to spy on them after they have stolen some spheres. He just want to make it appear as if he trust them completely, but he has a sound mind in his head. He knows that loyalty is a fickle, it can change as suddenly as the wind.

 

Yes, you should be flexible as a leader, but there are some lines you should not cross for the greater good. Dalinar did use Sadeas bridges and bridgemen when he thought it would end the war quicker and bring the other princes together. However, He never allowed those bridgemen to run unprotected.  If Amaram needed shards so badly, he could have challenged a shardbarer himself.

 

We don't know the whole story of Amaram yet, but killing his own men to get the shards can in no way be justified.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Of the two, I'd prefer to serve under Amaram. Chances of survival are better. At least he doesn't lead his soldiers into traps where 3/4 of them die because their leader is trying to be honorable and trust a cartoon villain.

 Not if you are barely trained, like Tien, or stand in the way of something Amaram wants, like Kaladin's men.

 

Edit: Sorry for the double post.    I didn't know how to delete it or combine it with the post above.

Edited December 20, 2013 by eveorjoy

[Colby Jack he/him]

Yes, you should be flexible as a leader, but there are some lines you should not cross for the greater good. Dalinar did use Sadeas bridges and bridgemen when he thought it would end the war quicker and bring the other princes together. However, He never allowed those bridgemen to run unprotected.  If Amaram needed shards so badly, he could have challenged a shardbarer himself.

 

We don't know the whole story of Amaram yet, but killing his own men to get the shards can in no way be justified.

Betrayal can never really be justified, but there are circumstances where a sacrifice must be made for the sake of the whole. In this case, what Amaram did was evil, simple as that, but if he had made something of their deaths, if he could somehow balance out their deaths with life, then his actions are for the greater good. But that didn't/won't happen, so that's why we all hate him.

 

That's the fine line you walk when you're the anti-hero.

 

Edited December 20, 2013 by mrwerd

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Betrayal can never really be justified, but there are circumstances where a sacrifice must be made for the sake of the whole. In this case, what Amaram did was evil, simple as that, but if he had made something of their deaths, if he could somehow balance out their deaths with life, then his actions are for the greater good. But that didn't/won't happen, so that's why we all hate him.

 

That's the fine line you walk when you're the anti-hero.

 

 

Actually, we don't know. Maybe he did or will.But every good act he does will be stained with the blood of the innocent. Sometimes you do need to let some die so that others may live, but you had better be justified in that choice.

 

I don't hate Amaram, but I understand why Kaladin does. i bet he will need to overcome that hate or Odium may find a place in his heart.

[Colby Jack he/him]

Actually, we don't know. Maybe he did or will.But every good act he does will be stained with the blood of the innocent. Sometimes you do need to let some die so that others may live, but you had better be justified in that choice.

 

I don't hate Amaram, but I understand why Kaladin does. i bet he will need to overcome that hate or Odium may find a place in his heart.

Amaram killed Kaladin's friends to cover up his thief of the shards. He didn't want people to know he stole them. Yes, Kaladin would have just handed him the shards, but he had to make sure no one talks.

Unless the second book throws a curve ball at us, I think we've all decided that the lie will the blown sooner or later. Which makes their death completely meaningless.

Edited December 20, 2013 by mrwerd

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Amaram killed Kaladin's friends to cover up his thief of the shards. He didn't want people to know he stole them. Yes, Kaladin would have just handed him the shards, but he had to make sure no one talks.

Unless the second book throws a curve ball at us, I think we've all decided that the lie will the blown sooner or later. Which makes their death completely meaningless.

 

Actually, I'm not sure the truth will ever come out. It's possible Kaladin will seethe inwardly about Amaram and never tell anyone why through all of book 2.

 

I think Dalinar is likely to find out eventually. Kaladin might mention it to some members of Bridge Four, Teft or Rock. Still, he might not tell anyone in WOR and Amaram most likely will not mention it either.

[Colby Jack he/him]

No, Amaram must be exposed for the liar and traitor he is. As I've said in another thread, I will accept nothing less than his head on a silver platter. His body can be fed to dogs.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

No, Amaram must be exposed for the liar and traitor he is. As I've said in another thread, I will accept nothing less than his head on a silver platter. His body can be fed to dogs.

 

If Roshar was that fair, Tien would still be alive.

 

The truth is even if Dalinar learns what happen to Kaladin, Amaram will most likely keep the shards, because there is no legal proof of his crimes.

 

If Amaram is going to get his comeuppance it will need to be some other way.

[Colby Jack he/him]

Other way is head to silver platter, body to starving dogs.

[Moogle]

Yes, you should be flexible as a leader, but there are some lines you should not cross for the greater good. Dalinar did use Sadeas bridges and bridgemen when he thought it would end the war quicker and bring the other princes together. However, He never allowed those bridgemen to run unprotected.  If Amaram needed shards so badly, he could have challenged a shardbarer himself.

 

As I recall, Dalinar let bridgemen die while on a plateau assault with Sadeas every single time.

 

 

Perhaps attacking this way served to protect Dalinar’s pristine image. He wouldn’t make bridgemen die. Not directly, at least. Never mind that he stood on the backs of the men who had fallen to get Sadeas across. Their corpses were his true bridge.

 

Kaladin is, I think, not the most impartial of sources, but he has a good point here. Five bridgecrews went down while Dalinar maneuvered into position. I would hardly say Dalinar was above profiting from the use of bridgemen, regardless of what excuses he told himself.

 

As to Amaram challenging a Shardbearer, he might have died in the upcoming duel. If the Shards were so important to him, he couldn't take stupid risks like dueling a Shardbearer. I think him keeping himself alive was a good plan, particularly if the Ghostbloods want to murder him. The Ghostbloods seem like the more dangerous of the secret groups.

 

And finally, as to Amaram's secret being outed, making the sacrifice of Kaladin's men worthless... since when is that going to happen? Kaladin has stayed quiet so far, and I see no reason for him to change his tone in the future, however much I might be excited for a confrontation. Brandon's revealed through morse code that Amaram and Dalinar are good friends, or at least allies. I think it's for a good reason: Amaram really is an honorable guy, when he can. He's just willing to get his hands dirty when it's necessary. He could very well be a more pragmatic Dalinar. I'll wait for more information, but I tentatively have hope that I'll like him by the time the series is over. It just sucks what he did to Kaladin.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

As I recall, Dalinar let bridgemen die while on a plateau assault with Sadeas every single time.

 

 

Kaladin is, I think, not the most impartial of sources, but he has a good point here. Five bridgecrews went down while Dalinar maneuvered into position. I would hardly say Dalinar was above profiting from the use of bridgemen, regardless of what excuses he told himself.

 

As to Amaram challenging a Shardbearer, he might have died in the upcoming duel. If the Shards were so important to him, he couldn't take stupid risks like dueling a Shardbearer. I think him keeping himself alive was a good plan, particularly if the Ghostbloods want to murder him. The Ghostbloods seem like the more dangerous of the secret groups.

 

And finally, as to Amaram's secret being outed, making the sacrifice of Kaladin's men worthless... since when is that going to happen? Kaladin has stayed quiet so far, and I see no reason for him to change his tone in the future, however much I might be excited for a confrontation. Brandon's revealed through morse code that Amaram and Dalinar are good friends, or at least allies. I think it's for a good reason: Amaram really is an honorable guy, when he can. He's just willing to get his hands dirty when it's necessary. He could very well be a more pragmatic Dalinar. I'll wait for more information, but I tentatively have hope that I'll like him by the time the series is over. It just sucks what he did to Kaladin.

 

I think Dalinar only allowed Sadeas to continue attacking the way he did because he was trying to influence him through example. He was aware that he was bending the codes letting Sadeas clear the plateau for him. But it was either allow Sadeas to attack his way and work with him, or not at all. 

 

Page 894

 

"Come with me," Sadeas said. "Let us assault them together! A single grand wave of attack across forty bridges!

Dalinar looked down at the bridge crew; many of their members were lying exhausted on the plateau. Awaiting--likely dreading--their next task. Very few of them wore the armot Sadeas spoke of.

Hundreds of them would be slaughtered in the assault if they attacked together. But was that any different from what Dalinar did, asking his men to seize a plateau? Weren't they all part of the same army?

The cracks. He couldn't let them get wider. If he was going to be with Navani, he had to prove to himself that he could remain firm in other areas. "No," he said. "I will attack, but only after you have made a landing point for my bridge crews. Even that is more than I should allow. Never force your men to do as you yourself would not."

"You  do charge the Parahendi!"

"I'd never do it carrying one of those bridges," Dalinar said. "I'm sorry, old friend. It's not a judgement of you. it is what I must do."

 

 In the end, Dalinar should never have worked with Sadeas and even he realized that. I have feeling that when he is High Prince of War no one in the camps will be forced to run bridges.

 

Page 961

"I have been treating the other highprinces like adults. An adult can take a principle and adapt it to his needs. But we're not ready for that yet. We're children. And when you are teaching a child, you require him to do what is right until he grows old enough to make his own choices..."

 

Do I think Dalinar will be perfect in following the codes in the future? No, but I don't think he would ever force anyone to do anything he would not do himself.

 

If Amaram wanted the shards, he should have earned them or asked for them.

 

However, I agree that Kaladin most likely will not try to get the shards back or tell anyone what Amaram did, except maybe Teft or Rock. And even if he did tell Dalinar, I doubt there is anything he could do to bring Amaram to justice. Also I agree that Amaram being buddies with Dalinar will make it even less likely that Kaladin will tell him about Amaram.

[Colby Jack he/him]

Do you know how long I've envisioned Amaram's downfall and subsequent violent death? How frequently? Don't ruin this for me.

[marianmi]

@mrwerd - you mean feed his body to the cremlings? Not sure they had dogs there on the plains...

 

I think all of you mistake the current Kaladin to the Kaladin in Amaram's army. The two are different persons, Kaladin changed a lot in the meantime. If not for Syl he might not even have come back for Dalinar. 

 

Kaladin might have given Amaram the shards - that was not the problem. But why wouldn't he changed his mind later - maybe, with new squad, he would have decided that having shards would have protected his squad better, so he might have went back to Amaram and asked for the shards back. And that's exactly what Amaram tried to avoid. The temptation was great then, and I think it likely Kaladin would have succombed. Maybe we would even have thought that having the shards he would become a better lighteyes that the others.

 

So I don't really have a big problem with how Amaram acted. Kaladin is the one that behaved irrationally there. There are stories about men coming and winning shards. There are men joining the army with that hope. Proving them wrong, Kaladin would have subminated the entire war, darkeyes would not join the army anymore and they would rebel. I think all of you confuse the current Kaladin with the old Kaladin - yes the material is the same, but the circumstances are very different - and fail to see the bigger picture - much like Kaladin failed to see the bigger picture in the bridge run when, because of him, hundreds of bridgemen died and Sadeas lost the fight.

 

EDIT: think about it in this way: out of all the highprinces, do you see anyone letting Kaladin alive after that? Current Dalinar, yes, but then he would have tried to explain to everyone Kaladin gave up the shards and did not steal them, no darkeyes would have believed him, rumours would have started, nobody would have joined his army, there would have been a big fight with Adolin, and Dalinar would have ended up stepping down as highprice. All because of a stubborn darkeye.

Edited December 22, 2013 by marianmi

[Natans he/him]

@mrwerd - you mean feed his body to the cremlings? Not sure they had dogs there on the plains...

 

I think all of you mistake the current Kaladin to the Kaladin in Amaram's army. The two are different persons, Kaladin changed a lot in the meantime. If not for Syl he might not even have come back for Dalinar. 

 

Kaladin might have given Amaram the shards - that was not the problem. But why wouldn't he changed his mind later - maybe, with new squad, he would have decided that having shards would have protected his squad better, so he might have went back to Amaram and asked for the shards back. And that's exactly what Amaram tried to avoid. The temptation was great then, and I think it likely Kaladin would have succombed. Maybe we would even have thought that having the shards he would become a better lighteyes that the others.

 

So I don't really have a big problem with how Amaram acted. Kaladin is the one that behaved irrationally there. There are stories about men coming and winning shards. There are men joining the army with that hope. Proving them wrong, Kaladin would have subminated the entire war, darkeyes would not join the army anymore and they would rebel. I think all of you confuse the current Kaladin with the old Kaladin - yes the material is the same, but the circumstances are very different - and fail to see the bigger picture - much like Kaladin failed to see the bigger picture in the bridge run when, because of him, hundreds of bridgemen died and Sadeas lost the fight.

 

EDIT: think about it in this way: out of all the highprinces, do you see anyone letting Kaladin alive after that? Current Dalinar, yes, but then he would have tried to explain to everyone Kaladin gave up the shards and did not steal them, no darkeyes would have believed him, rumours would have started, nobody would have joined his army, there would have been a big fight with Adolin, and Dalinar would have ended up stepping down as highprice. All because of a stubborn darkeye.

 

In the way you put looks like Kaladin is guilt for didn't want dirty his hand with a shadrset that was used to kill his friend. He had all the right to do what he wanted with the shards, he won and by Alenthi law it was his.

 

For the otherside, Amaram knew that what he done was wrong (he fell a light guilty and all)  but even soo  e killed his savior friends and slaved the man how saved his life to steel the plate and sword. He is guilty of that there is no midle ground. His intetion or justifications aren't enough to absolve him.

 

I can be wrong but Amaram will have to pay for what he done in a way or another. If the end justify the means Taravagian too could be excused for his killing and assassination, he are fighting for the great good, and for what we know he did more good in bring the nations together and discovering the true in the death chants that Amaram did with his stolen plate. Same thing just a different scope.

 

 

Just saying =)

[marianmi]

In the way you put looks like Kaladin is guilt for didn't want dirty his hand with a shadrset that was used to kill his friend. He had all the right to do what he wanted with the shards, he won and by Alenthi law it was his.

 

For the otherside, Amaram knew that what he done was wrong (he fell a light guilty and all)  but even soo  e killed his savior friends and slaved the man how saved his life to steel the plate and sword. He is guilty of that there is no midle ground. His intetion or justifications aren't enough to absolve him.

 

I can be wrong but Amaram will have to pay for what he done in a way or another. If the end justify the means Taravagian too could be excused for his killing and assassination, he are fighting for the great good, and for what we know he did more good in bring the nations together and discovering the true in the death chants that Amaram did with his stolen plate. Same thing just a different scope.

 

 

Just saying =)

 

 

Well, Kaladin sacrificed a few of his men in saving Dalinar. Was that justified?

He sacrificed a few of his men in saving Amaram. Yet, his reaction was different in the 2 cases.

 

I did not mean to imply that Kaladin is guilty for what happened, but to point out that Amaram had good reasons to act like he did. The fact that he felt felt guilty for what he did and that he let Kaladin live is just proof that he is not a bad guy, somebody like Sadeas would have killed Kaladin too and would have not felt bad about it.

 

PS: the difference between Amaram sacrificing Kaladin's men and Kaladin sacificing his men was choice. The bridgement chose to fight and die, Kaladin's squad was killed without a choice. This makes Amaram not honourable enough to be a KR (he put destination before journey), but it does not make him as evil as some people here think he is. I have hopes the next book will redeem him

[+eveorjoy she/her]

@mrwerd - you mean feed his body to the cremlings? Not sure they had dogs there on the plains...

 

I think all of you mistake the current Kaladin to the Kaladin in Amaram's army. The two are different persons, Kaladin changed a lot in the meantime. If not for Syl he might not even have come back for Dalinar. 

 

Kaladin might have given Amaram the shards - that was not the problem. But why wouldn't he changed his mind later - maybe, with new squad, he would have decided that having shards would have protected his squad better, so he might have went back to Amaram and asked for the shards back. And that's exactly what Amaram tried to avoid. The temptation was great then, and I think it likely Kaladin would have succombed. Maybe we would even have thought that having the shards he would become a better lighteyes that the others.

 

So I don't really have a big problem with how Amaram acted. Kaladin is the one that behaved irrationally there. There are stories about men coming and winning shards. There are men joining the army with that hope. Proving them wrong, Kaladin would have subminated the entire war, darkeyes would not join the army anymore and they would rebel. I think all of you confuse the current Kaladin with the old Kaladin - yes the material is the same, but the circumstances are very different - and fail to see the bigger picture - much like Kaladin failed to see the bigger picture in the bridge run when, because of him, hundreds of bridgemen died and Sadeas lost the fight.

 

EDIT: think about it in this way: out of all the highprinces, do you see anyone letting Kaladin alive after that? Current Dalinar, yes, but then he would have tried to explain to everyone Kaladin gave up the shards and did not steal them, no darkeyes would have believed him, rumours would have started, nobody would have joined his army, there would have been a big fight with Adolin, and Dalinar would have ended up stepping down as highprice. All because of a stubborn darkeye.

 

It easy to accept the death of some for the greater good, until you are one being sacrificed.

 

I don't think Kaladin giving the Shards to Amaram would have caused the chaos and rebellion you suggest. Amaram isn't pure evil. He's reasons are all too human and understandable, but so are the actions of many criminals There is no way to justify it.

 

However, I think he will get away with it because there is no way to prove it either. Even if Dalinar learns the truth, most likely there is nothing he can do to help.

 

 

 

PS: the difference between Amaram sacrificing Kaladin's men and Kaladin sacificing his men was choice. The bridgement chose to fight and die, Kaladin's squad was killed without a choice.

 

That is the difference between leading men in a good cause and murder.

Edited December 22, 2013 by eveorjoy

[Natans he/him]

I agree that Amaram aren't "evil", but i believe in paying for what you do. Even a good man must pay for a evil thing he did. It's doesn't matter if your intetion are good or if you are a good person, you do wrong you must pay/redemn yourself (if like to put this way).

 

What Amaram did was 4º qualify murder (planned crime, torpid reason, with use of treason and concealment of evidence, here at least) not a thing that you can justify by saying sorry. If Kaladin bring him to justice i will not mind for a second, but who knows maybe Amaram can make something good before the end, I just not holding my breath in this one =)

 

PS: Don't mind me i hate traitors as life principle soo my opinion are biased =)

Edited December 22, 2013 by Natans

[Moash]

I don't understand how Amaram could not have gotten to The Shattered Plains years ago when he had that shardblade and plate with him for TWO YEARS! When you have the full Shardset, don't you just immediately get drafted to the Shattered Plains?

[marianmi]

I think he was defending the borders...

Which means that his going to the Shattered Plains was either:

 

* something happened in Alethkar

* Dalinar called all troops for a big push against the parshendi

[+eveorjoy she/her]

I think Amaram got those shards for more than fight Parchendi (at least I hope he did or he really is just a greedy jerk). He's most likely been about other work before joining his highprince.

[Jit he/him]

I don't agree with what Amaram did to Kaladin and his company but I can understand it.

Looking at it from a historical point of view there has been many cases in the world where generals and leaders have sacrificed men and women for what they believed to be the greater good. Such as Churchill not evacuating a villiage in Britan during a German bombing to keep a military advantage that and in the long-ran saved many more British lives.

As for if it is morally right I don't believe it is but I don't think it's evil and as a leader of a army during war it would have to be a decision made without emotion.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

I don't agree with what Amaram did to Kaladin and his company but I can understand it.

Looking at it from a historical point of view there has been many cases in the world where generals and leaders have sacrificed men and women for what they believed to be the greater good. Such as Churchill not evacuating a villiage in Britan during a German bombing to keep a military advantage that and in the long-ran saved many more British lives.

As for if it is morally right I don't believe it is but I don't think it's evil and as a leader of a army during war it would have to be a decision made without emotion.

 

There is a big difference between letting people die.and having them assassinated. I think Amaram is as evil as Taravangian, which isn't completely evil. It's understandable but it is still theft and murder for the greater good.

 

Does it really remain the greater good when so much evil is done to get there?

 

Now, I'm not saying Amaram is as evil as Sadeas, but there is no way to justify his actions.

[DocHoliday he/him]

Look, I'm just going to point a few facts out here. REGARDLESS of wether Amaran' s actions were right wrong or in the middle; the OP is about whether Dalinar will find out.

Kaladin is a racist. He hates or at the very minimum has an incredible mistrust of any Lighteyes for no other reason than physical traits.

This was caused by TWO people. But only one of them did he grant any (large) measure of belief in.

That person is about to join Dalinars current nemesis.

If you think our budding KR is going to keep quiet or only grumble to Bridge 4, you need to reread WoK.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

Look, I'm just going to point a few facts out here. REGARDLESS of wether Amaran' s actions were right wrong or in the middle; the OP is about whether Dalinar will find out.

Kaladin is a racist. He hates or at the very minimum has an incredible mistrust of any Lighteyes for no other reason than physical traits.

This was caused by TWO people. But only one of them did he grant any (large) measure of belief in.

That person is about to join Dalinars current nemesis.

If you think our budding KR is going to keep quiet or only grumble to Bridge 4, you need to reread WoK.

 

I don't disagree with your assessment of Kaladin's biased opinion of lighteyes, though I do find it interesting referring to the oppressed as racist. It would be like calling Jews who lived the holocaust racist against Germans, but I digress.

 

Amaram is going to get buddy buddy was Dalinar in the next book or at least try to.  This thread has a spoiler that talks about it.

 

Besides that, Kaladin has no proof that Amaram stole the shards. Why would he tell Dalinar?

 

And aside from telling Dalinar, what do you think he will do?